PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Jackson]

Nope, think it was on the Smash reddit a year ago

Oh, thanks google http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2cwi1g/gamecube_controller_button_preferences_survey/
so much for a year ago then? lol hmm I swear it wasn't just 1 month ago..

Hmm, that's pretty cool. Thanks dude.

 

[SpiderMad]

Could you shoot a laser expecting they PS it, Side-b, get hit by the laser to cut the end lag of it, and go for a grab/shine? Or otherwise, in a Falco ditto just do it to their laser

 

[JCBeef]

Could you shoot a laser expecting they PS it, Side-b, get hit by the laser to cut the end lag of it, and go for a grab/shine? Or otherwise, in a Falco ditto just do it to their laser

Maybe but that's mad risky and you've probably gotta be pretty precise to do that. In my experience the best way to deal with powershields or other falco's lasers is to do a laser as low as you can and then do a high laser (Or you just jump)

If they powershield the laser you can just hop over it when it comes back. If they didn't powershield you didn't really leave yourself open.

 

[SpiderMad]

I've never seen a video of it being done before, if it works at all that would be baller. Actually maybe invincibility at the end or something could be an option to beat someone's read SHL

low and then high, what's the reasoning for that; do you got a video example?

 

[JCBeef]

youtube.com/watch?v=hFFaApyindI#t=203 ( 3:23 )

I need 10 posts to post a link so just type that in or search youtube for "Lamb Chops vs Colbol Losers Side" and click the first link.
The moment I'm talking about happens ~ 3:23

And a similar thing happens around ( 3:28 ) when the fox shines a laser - he hops over the reflection but shoots another and gets hit anyway lol.

He jumps over the power shielded laser.
I think he actually manages to get the second laser lower too which is optimal cause if the fox got a second powershield he could probably just hop that too.

(Also someone could correct this if I'm wrong but I heard lower lasers are harder to powershield too.

 

[Russ The Love Muss]

youtube.com/watch?v=hFFaApyindI#t=203 ( 3:23 )

I need 10 posts to post a link so just type that in or search youtube for "Lamb Chops vs Colbol Losers Side" and click the first link.
The moment I'm talking about happens ~ 3:23

And a similar thing happens around ( 3:28 ) when the fox shines a laser - he hops over the reflection but shoots another and gets hit anyway lol.

He jumps over the power shielded laser.
I think he actually manages to get the second laser lower too which is optimal cause if the fox got a second powershield he could probably just hop that too.

(Also someone could correct this if I'm wrong but I heard lower lasers are harder to powershield too.

The easiest lasers to powershield are high ones, so yes low lasers are harder to powershield

 

[Tityboi]

I've been trying to think of ways to practice laser heights lately, specifically lasers used for edgeguarding and lasers for controlling vertical space, and I think I've come up with a pretty good way to practice producing specific heights. I use the 20xx hack pack, however this method can be used without it. Basically you enter fixed camera mode in versus, I also use the single player glitch its more convenient, but not necessary, then I mark lines on my tv with a dry erase marker at laser heights I want to hit. What do you guys think? Its a little extreme, but I don't get that much practice against real opponents, and when I do I'm not getting that many opportunities to edgeguard since I suck.

 

[Bones0]

I've been trying to think of ways to practice laser heights lately, specifically lasers used for edgeguarding and lasers for controlling vertical space, and I think I've come up with a pretty good way to practice producing specific heights. I use the 20xx hack pack, however this method can be used without it. Basically you enter fixed camera mode in versus, I also use the single player glitch its more convenient, but not necessary, then I mark lines on my tv with a dry erase marker at laser heights I want to hit. What do you guys think? Its a little extreme, but I don't get that much practice against real opponents, and when I do I'm not getting that many opportunities to edgeguard since I suck.

You should just pick different CPUs in Training Mode and try to shoot lasers right above their head. For low lasers, you can turn items on very high, switch all of the items off, then go to FD and capsules will appear and you can shoot them off the ground.

 

[Tityboi]

You should just pick different CPUs in Training Mode and try to shoot lasers right above their head. For low lasers, you can turn items on very high, switch all of the items off, then go to FD and capsules will appear and you can shoot them off the ground.

This is mainly meant for full hop/dj/run off laser, so like if I wanted to practice a laser height that would hit peach at a height that she normally floats at vs falco, I would mark that height on the screen and figure out the optimal way to hit that height.

 

[Jackson]

Is double shining necessary to play Falco at a high level?

 

[Bones0]

Is double shining necessary to play Falco at a high level?

You can get really good without it, especially if you don't count shine-shine-waveland as doubleshining, but ultimately, you're only handicapping yourself by not using it. It's not exactly necessary to do a lot of things that would still benefit you greatly to learn.

 

[Jackson]

You can get really good without it, especially if you don't count shine-shine-waveland as doubleshining, but ultimately, you're only handicapping yourself by not using it. It's not exactly necessary to do a lot of things that would still benefit you greatly to learn.

That's a solid response. I think I'll work on incorporating it into my game after I've completely got waveshining down.

Also, PPMD never multishines, right?

 

[Bones0]

That's a solid response. I think I'll work on incorporating it into my game after I've completely got waveshining down.

Also, PPMD never multishines, right?

That's very reasonable. I always tell people not to worry about multishining if they are still learning the game, but I think it'd be a mistake to tell someone they never have to use it later in their improvement process.

I don't think I've ever seen him do a grounded doubleshine in game, no.

 

[xman]

Actually he has double shined I think it was at mlg but its very rare and I thibk he has against westballz in a different tournament he really doesn't use it that much

 

[Bones0]

 

[AlphaQHard]

Does pressing up while i D-air with c-stick help me not fall as much when im offstage?

Can you run Downsmash in this game?

 

[Jackson]

Does pressing up while i D-air with c-stick help me not fall as much when im offstage?

Can you run Downsmash in this game?

1. No. If you do Dair with only the C-stick, that's the slowest you're going to fall while doing it (not fast falling). If you often suicide by Dairing and going too far, trying doing a Dair with the C-stick while jumping so you rise as you do it.

2. Yes, you can. Run, crouch, then Dsmash. If done quickly, you wont see the crouch.

Good luck, hope I helped.

 

[AlphaQHard]

1. No. If you do Dair with only the C-stick, that's the slowest you're going to fall while doing it (not fast falling). If you often suicide by Dairing and going too far, trying doing a Dair with the C-stick while jumping so you rise as you do it.

2. Yes, you can. Run, crouch, then Dsmash. If done quickly, you wont see the crouch.

Good luck, hope I helped.

1. Thanks, im thinking of making the switch from fox to falco. fox can go farther off the stage because of his firefox so i wanted to see what falco's "limit" off the stage was.

2. Sometimes it works for me, but most of the time i just do a down tilt. I find running upsmashes easier than running downsmashes.

 

[Jackson]

1. Thanks, im thinking of making the switch from fox to falco. fox can go farther off the stage because of his firefox so i wanted to see what falco's "limit" off the stage was.

2. Sometimes it works for me, but most of the time i just do a down tilt. I find running upsmashes easier than running downsmashes.

Unfortunately, Falco's Up B goes MUCH shorter than Fox's. You have to be careful playing offstage. Oh, and for the running Dsmash, try doing it with the C stick. You wont Dtilt that way.

 

[smoke070]

I can't figure out when to use Shine. I'm not kidding when I say that I use Falco's entire kit except Shine.. I feel like I haven't unlocked and understood its potential. Only after I dair I will sometimes use it.

 

[JCBeef]

I can't figure out when to use Shine. I'm not kidding when I say that I use Falco's entire kit except Shine.. I feel like I haven't unlocked and understood its potential. Only after I dair I will sometimes use it.

I'm sure there are some higher level players that could help out with this more so I'd LOVE if someone else could throw some insight out there.

But here's how I use / see it used

OFFENSIVELY :
Shield pressure - it's a quick move that is awesome for shield pressuring and can protect you after aerials (dair/nair usually) and give you a chance to keep pressuring or jump outta there if you're uncomfortable w/ the position plus you can do a shine grab so while they're scared in shield you just grab 'em. I see it like a safety net when it comes to pressuring it lets you do things that would otherwise be unsafe when you're near someone (I mean it can still be unsafe if used improperly though)
I also really like it as a safe way to pressure people on platforms (unless they can shield drop then you get wrecked) but you jump up to them and when you're like halfway through the platform you shine and it can sometimes shield poke but if it doesn't you can waveland onto the platform, shine again and after that I usually shine-grab.
Combo Extender / Starter - This pops em up so you can combo idk what else to write here it's just sweet for combos at low percents usually follow any hit you got with a shine check out other falcos to get ideas for combos and how to combo. It's also a pretty good combo ender or kill move with things like shine>backair/nair/uair/sometimes dair
Interception - Usually if I have the low ground and I read someone is going to approach me from a high platform I'll meet them halfway and shine them to intercept them then you can waveland onto a platform and combo
Gimping - Lighter characters / Chars at high percents / On stages with low ceilings you can kill of the top with a shine Usually this is a combo ender as you could do something like start at the bottom of a stage and get
nair>shine>waveland on side platform - at this point you sorta staircased them up higher so you can maybe staircase them to the top platform especially if they DI into the stage then you can do a similair thing - now you're on the top platform - then jump up and shine them IDK if that makes sense.
Edgeguard - You can shine people off stage and do drop off ledge>shine->rising dair or bair to sometimes get a kill or sometimes shine them and if they DI in or something you can stage spike them which is hilarious.

DEFENSIVELY :
Wake Up Shine - After you get knocked down during a tech chase you can do a normal get up or tech in place and shine to catch the person off guard, this obviously doesn't work all the time though but it can sometimes completely turn situations around which is awesome
Shine Stalling - If someone is coming out to edgeguard you you can shine->let go of shine and repeat to slow your descent this can throw off their timing and let you get back to stage safer. Best places to shine stall are if you're waiting on a teammate to save you in teams, kinda far off stage and your opponent goes for a really deep edgeguard, or if you're below ledge and your opponent is trying to gimp you you can hold the shine until you're low enough to double jump sweet spot the ledge
Uhh Reflecting? - You can genuinely use it as a reflector - situational and punishable though but also funny
Shine out of shield - If you're being pressured in shield or your opponent does something unsafe on shield you can jump out of shield and instantly shine as a sort of counter attack

These are kinda generic situations/uses so lemme know if you have a more in depth question.

 

[xman]

Does anyone know what character and cpu level the computer is most prone to shielding?

 

[BTmoney]

bones's shameless plug

Does anyone know what character and cpu level the computer is most prone to shielding?

do cpus shield at all? iirc they either powershield or just take hits


also @ the question above I think your 1st response points out a big problem with how newer players learn spacies. that is a great summary JCBeef but you have to qualify that with this.

the first thing everyone wants to learn is how to shield pressure. this is going to result in you running at CPUs and dair'ing at them with the same approach and pushing a lot of buttons really fast for multiple months.

you are going to burn these patterns into your head subconsciously (yes, you are going to even if you say you aren't) and then you're going to become increasingly technical but will hardly ever get better at the game or beat anyone even kind of good.

this will go on for many months/years until someone explains to you how stupid you are playing. instead of learning to push buttons on shields you should learn how to actually hit your opponent from neutral AND hit them in a way that leads to a combo. hardly ever are you going to get a clean dair shine in the way that you want it.



tl;dr
1. shield pressure in the way that people think of it is hardly even used anymore. look at how dr. pp pretty much always opts for spacing out aerials or going to shine grab. you'll hardly catch mango's falco doing extended "shield pressure." westballz really is the only one left and he has a unique spin on it since he has a lot more techskill than 99.5% of people

2. practicing shield pressure for hours at a time in the beginning over the course of months is likely going to make you play stupid

3. you don't learn about the tug-of-war that goes on in neutral and in falco vs. a shielding person

4. good/smart players know how to deal with shield pressure and you are going to get shined OOS all day in this meta or get your approach read, shielded in a favorable way and you're going to get shield grabbed. I love when falco's shield pressure me in the "fast spamming" type of way.

5. not to blow down on Hax but consider how someone like him with world class techskill, speed, shield pressure, and general execution still gets trounced by players like PP and Mango in spacie match ups when they can't play nearly as fast as Hax can. consider how they do it.

6. I know because I did this myself for like 1.5 years. now that I figured out how to not play stupid i raep and I can use the techskill I built up practicing this stupid **** to do actual good things

this was a long tl;dr but basically that's everything wrong with practicing too much techskill, spending too much time on smashboards, and thinking about the game more than playing it. that's why I've hardly posted at all in the last half a year, there's really nothing you can get answered here other than yes/no & frame data type questions unless you are in the right mindset to understand good answers and you ask the right people the right questions.

 

[Jackson]

I started Melee like a month ago and I'm afraid I've fallen victim to the "rush in with Dair" playstyle mentioned above...

 

[AlphaQHard]

Sometimes when i D-air my opponent off stage it takes me a while to use my double jump to try and get closer to the stage to firebird. Sometimes i cant even use my double jump and i die. Because i hit him does that create extra lag for me?

 

[Mogwai]

it creates hit lag, so the timing on your double jump is slightly different from if you didn't hit anything, but it won't make you fall any further before you can double jump.

 

[AlphaQHard]

it creates hit lag, so the timing on your double jump is slightly different from if you didn't hit anything, but it won't make you fall any further before you can double jump.

thanks!

 

[Bones0]

Sometimes when i D-air my opponent off stage it takes me a while to use my double jump to try and get closer to the stage to firebird. Sometimes i cant even use my double jump and i die. Because i hit him does that create extra lag for me?

If you dair as soon as you leave the ground, that gives you a larger window of time to DJ before reaching the bottom blast zone. You can also tap jump because it buffers for a few frames and makes it easier to hit that perfect timing. You also probably know already, but not all blast zones are the same distance, even on the bottom. SH dairing off stage is much easier on DL or FoD than it is on YS or BF.

 

[AlphaQHard]

If you dair as soon as you leave the ground, that gives you a larger window of time to DJ before reaching the bottom blast zone. You can also tap jump because it buffers for a few frames and makes it easier to hit that perfect timing. You also probably know already, but not all blast zones are the same distance, even on the bottom. SH dairing off stage is much easier on DL or FoD than it is on YS or BF.

Thanks! When you mean tap do you mean multiple tap the jump button? I usually just play on final destination, but I do know that the blastzone are different.

 

[JCBeef]

Thanks! When you mean tap do you mean multiple tap the jump button? I usually just play on final destination, but I do know that the blastzone are different.

If you hit up on the control stick instead of X/Y it is a little more lenient on the timing and you have ~4 frames around that time as opposed to if you used the button where you would have to hit it exactly when you want to jump.

Also opinions on a certain "matchup" that I'm having trouble with would be helpful. It's not so much a character match up as a playstyle match up. I do fine against balls to the wall aggro players But what I have a lot more trouble with is smart aggro players. Players that make me feel "suffocated" and are really good at limiting my options. (Mostly this happens with good marth / fox players) I feel like when I play these players everything I do they just react to it. (Probably because I'm choosing an obvious defensive option that they're trying to bait out anyway) These types of players I feel like outclass me and that's fine but what's frustrating is not seeing a way to beat it and eventually get better.

Do you guys have any suggestions for 1.) Slowing down these players 2.) Not getting put into limited situations 3.) Countering this type of play?

Obviously lasers is probably the go to answer but a lot of the time they will be too close to laser, so if I do laser I just get stuffed. So then from there my go to answer would be better movement and staying outside of their "reaction" range. And that's probably more right, but I still have issues putting this into practice so just looking for advice / putting my thoughts out there cause that alone helps me too.

 

[Jackson]

I think "Smart Aggro" is the strongest playstyle in this game in general.

 

[JCBeef]

I think "Smart Aggro" is the strongest playstyle in this game in general.

IDK about strongest because I don't like generalizing but I agree it's definitely a really good method of play. That's why I need to learn how to learn about it / from playing these players haha.

http://smashboards.com/threads/drastic-improvement-under-construction-for-apex.311129/
Under the aggression section of this the author talks some about smart aggro and why it's bomb.

Reviewing my question it's probably too broad haha but still any advice is welcome.

 

[Bones0]

Generally speaking, I think lasers are much better vs. opponents who are not overwhelming you than vs. opponents who are. They are extremely unsafe and punishable when they are closing in on your space, and frankly they are just unwieldy hitboxes for nearby opponents. The less I use lasers vs. Fox, the better I seem to do (and I think Fox is the premier character for aggressive spacing). Unfortunately, a lot of Falcos seem to rely on lasers to set the pace when they start feel like they are losing control of the stock ("oh god, Fox keeps steamrolling me with SHFFLs and shines; I have to sit still and laser him for a second so I can think/move/breathe").

You'll get ****ty short term results, but I think it's best to just try to outplay them with positioning and move placement. You should still try to make them play your game; your game just can't be "laser until they feel trapped then 'Falco master' them to death". It seems like once you are outplaying them in that other way, it only amplifies the strength of your laser pressure. For example, if someone keeps jumping over your laser and wrecking you, lasering better isn't the solution. The solution is to beat their jumping, then after you teach them to respect your non-laser game, you can shoot more lasers without worrying about them jumping over all of them. Every time someone punishes you for lasering and you keep lasering, you are just alerting to them when to approach.

If you don't feel like you're lasering much and still getting wrecked in neutral, you're probably just getting outplayed in neutral. This actually seems normal for Falco mains because they get used to relying on lasers to play neutral, or at least get used to the laser flowchart (laser pressure -> shield pressure/hit). It's exacerbated by the fact that Falco is slow and fragile so when someone navigates your laser game, you just get blown up constantly whereas if you had a faster dashing character or heavy tanking floaty, neutral would be way easier. Most aggro styles do not commonly utilize options I would consider countered by more or better lasering.

 

[JCBeef]

Thanks sick response Bones. Helps a lot

Kinda in relation to this.
When you're boxed out of center stage in my mind there are 4 options but I could be looking at this wrong.

1 - Out-move them / avoid them and try to sneak by (Roll by, full jump over, waveland to plat above you then go from there)
if you move to a plat then you can do a lot of this stuff still probably (DD on plat throw out defensive options w/e it's probably worse from plat though)
2 - Keep backing up as they approach you (Dash dancing or last resort grab ledge probably pretty bad if you're forced to ledge though)
3 - Defensive option when they approach you (Bair / Uptilt probably or fake a run in and shield maybe idk)
4 - Go in on them

I feel like 1 is the most preferable because it's the least committed.
2 is not committed but leaves you with less room to work with which sucks but you can react to what the other player does more
3 commits to them approaching you
4 commits to them not doing anything and just dash dancing

And what options are best depend on the situation and player obviously but this is just my general idea of it.
Am I missing some different options here or ways to think about this situation of being boxed out of center?
Like should I be valuing the little space I have more and think about counter-attacking or throwing out defensive options more instead of Dash dancing back?

Thanks for help all, discussion is sick.

 

[Mogwai]

Thanks! When you mean tap do you mean multiple tap the jump button? I usually just play on final destination, but I do know that the blastzone are different.

He means tapping up on the control stick to jump rather than using X/Y to do your double jump.

 

[Axrz]

@ Bones0 , are there any specific matches you can think of where a Falco beats a Fox primarily off of positioning and move placement? I don't really understand how a Falco could win this matchup without using any lasers.

Also, can you talk more about what a gameplan is? I always feel like my gameplans are too general, or focus too much on a specific situation and I autopilot the rest of the time.

 

[Mogwai]

I can't think of any particular matches, but I think pretty much any PP vs. Mango Falco vs. Fox on not FD/DL will be very laser light in the neutral game from PP. Top level Foxes are just very suffocating on neutral game lasers and will punish you insanely hard.

 

[Axrz]

Ohh, I understand now. Thanks!

 

[Bones0]

Thanks sick response Bones. Helps a lot

Kinda in relation to this.
When you're boxed out of center stage in my mind there are 4 options but I could be looking at this wrong.

1 - Out-move them / avoid them and try to sneak by (Roll by, full jump over, waveland to plat above you then go from there)
if you move to a plat then you can do a lot of this stuff still probably (DD on plat throw out defensive options w/e it's probably worse from plat though)
2 - Keep backing up as they approach you (Dash dancing or last resort grab ledge probably pretty bad if you're forced to ledge though)
3 - Defensive option when they approach you (Bair / Uptilt probably or fake a run in and shield maybe idk)
4 - Go in on them

I feel like 1 is the most preferable because it's the least committed.
2 is not committed but leaves you with less room to work with which sucks but you can react to what the other player does more
3 commits to them approaching you
4 commits to them not doing anything and just dash dancing

And what options are best depend on the situation and player obviously but this is just my general idea of it.
Am I missing some different options here or ways to think about this situation of being boxed out of center?
Like should I be valuing the little space I have more and think about counter-attacking or throwing out defensive options more instead of Dash dancing back?

Thanks for help all, discussion is sick.

Your options don't seem bad per se, but rather limiting and overgeneralizing. Lumping "out-move", "avoid", and "sneak past" into one category is kind of ridiculous because all of those options have so much depth to themselves that there's no way your brain can assess the situation and immediately discard or utilize it as an option. If you find yourself without stage control, do your best to evaluate the situation and trust your subconscious to create a solution. Use your conscious attention to evaluate how effective or ineffective your decision was, and whether it worked or not, you now have more data banked away about how Melee "tends" to work. After you play a million matches, your brain will hopefully have so many situations cataloged that you will respond to unique scenarios intuitively. The vast majority of good "plays" top players make are not thought of on the spot. They are, quite literally, spontaneous and in the moment. I do not believe anyone can consciously think about Melee fast enough to ever be particularly good at it. You have to train your mind.

@ Bones0 , are there any specific matches you can think of where a Falco beats a Fox primarily off of positioning and move placement? I don't really understand how a Falco could win this matchup without using any lasers.

Also, can you talk more about what a gameplan is? I always feel like my gameplans are too general, or focus too much on a specific situation and I autopilot the rest of the time.

Basically any Mango match is an amazing example of how to play the Fox matchup. The few lasers he does do are almost always cutting off options (like shooting a high laser as Fox lands) as opposed to actually hitting. A good example is his exhibition set vs. Javi from Apex 2012. I think it's great because Mango had obviously never played Javi before so he didn't come in with a good understand of his style, and Javi had beaten PP not long before the set.

 

[DarkBowser555]

I have been recently practicing my Falco tech skill, and one of the hardest things for me is jump-canceling my shines. I watch tons of videos of falcos and they jump cancel shines so fast. I can do it pretty fast with tap jump, but with tap jump I can't waveshine or short hop. Is there a secret way I should hold my controller? Should I have my thumb in-between b and y?

tl;dr How can I jump cancel my shines better?