PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Jackson]

Hey guys I finally got the timing for shine OoS but I can't time it well against other people I play without rumble does rumble help a lot when it comes to that?

Why does the rumble make it easier for you?

 

[xman]

Idk I feel like at a high paced match I get lost sometimes and I guess the rumble can tell you when someone hits your shield. Idk someone here uses that as a reliable way of telling when to shine oos

 

[Jackson]

Idk I feel like at a high paced match I get lost sometimes and I guess the rumble can tell you when someone hits your shield. Idk someone here uses that as a reliable way of telling when to shine oos

Ah, so you mean the rumble kind of gets a reaction from you quicker than your eyes do ?

 

[xman]

Yeah reacting to feel instead of sight

 

[Bones0]

You have to react based on sight. Just because they hit your shield and trigger your rumble doesn't mean you are able to shine OoS. The sensation of being overwhelmed and getting lost will go away with time and practice.

 

[tauKhan]

Falcon definitely gets way more momentum in moonwalks from a DD than he does from walking, which you said in the very next sentence, so I'm confused what you're even saying...

No, falcon doesn't get more momentum from dd moonwalk. Many players (myself included) probably just find it easier to input moonwalks from a dash instead of stand or walk. And I meant that the walking momentum is literally added to the moonwalk momentum. I suspect that falcon gets a very little more from walking one, but I'm not 100% positive on that. The best one falcon can do is probably cardinal direction moonwalk (inputting forward dash and immediately pressing back in 2(?) frames) from standing but that's too hard at least for me.

 

[Bones0]

No, falcon doesn't get more momentum from dd moonwalk. Many players (myself included) probably just find it easier to input moonwalks from a dash instead of stand or walk. And I meant that the walking momentum is literally added to the moonwalk momentum. I suspect that falcon gets a very little more from walking one, but I'm not 100% positive on that. The best one falcon can do is probably cardinal direction moonwalk (inputting forward dash and immediately pressing back in 2(?) frames) from standing but that's too hard at least for me.

Oh, I could have sworn you got more momentum from dashing than from a stand, but I guess it's just easier...

 

[MALVM MALVM]

Some people like rumble because it kinda massages their hands as they play and keeps them loose. Personally, I think it's kinda distracting since it's a superfluous sensory input.

 

[Jackson]

Some people like rumble because it kinda massages their hands as they play and keeps them loose. Personally, I think it's kinda distracting since it's a superfluous sensory input.

I agree, especially on things like DKs down b- that's ridiculous.

 

[JCBeef]

Hey guys I finally got the timing for shine OoS but I can't time it well against other people I play without rumble does rumble help a lot when it comes to that?

Uh shouldn't really matter too much lol besides placebo / comfort or something.

 

[xman]

Thanks guys I guess its something I just have to get used to

 

[Jackson]

Back to the moonwalk; I really want to do it. Badly. Is whether you actually perform it dependent on how fast your tilt motion is? This is what I'm doing now:

Walk at full speed in one direction - dash the other way - quickly tilt the stick diagonally down then sightly up (from 4 to in between 6 and 9 and then to 6)


123
456
789

Is this right?

 

[MALVM MALVM]

I feel like corner case tech stuff is just something to do between stocks. It's won't get you anywhere right now and it'll get way easier once you have a couple thousand hours of Falco in you.

When people ask about how to do shdl as fox on the fox boards they tend to just say "if you play enough it'll just happen." I feel like this is the same kind of thing.

 

[Jackson]

Fair enough, I just love flashy techs.

 

[MALVM MALVM]

All techs are flashy; that's how you know you're invincible heyoooooooo

 

[tauKhan]

Is whether you actually perform it dependent on how fast your tilt motion is?

The amount of backward speed you get depends directly on how long and how much you hold backward to accelerate, so the faster you move your stick while avoiding turning, the faster your moonwalk will be. You don't have to be perfect to retain your speed with falco's moonwalk.

My method is: walk at 6, dash at 4 with as small input as possible, aim at 9 (Aiming in between 9 and 6 will result in dash if you do it fast.) and roll the stick to 6.

 

[Jackson]

The amount of backward speed you get depends directly on how long and how much you hold backward to accelerate, so the faster you move your stick while avoiding turning, the faster your moonwalk will be. You don't have to be perfect to retain your speed with falco's moonwalk.

My method is: walk at 6, dash at 4 with as small input as possible, aim at 9 (Aiming in between 9 and 6 will result in dash if you do it fast.) and roll the stick to 6.

I'll try your method, thanks man.

EDIT: I seem to be able to do a little moonwalk in place now. Is there a way to keep doing the backwards slide of the moonwalk? What would I input to do so?

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

I was practicing some Ledge Hop Double Laser and some approach mixups with double jump fast fall laser, and I noticed that sometimes falco will switch directions right before firing the laser, like if I jump and am facing to the right, he'll reverse very quickly and shoot the other direction. I don't do any inputs beside the down to up on the control stick for LHDL or Down to neutral for double jump fast fall laser, so I was wondering why this happened. (It also does this when I do platform drop laser too)

 

[xman]

It could be that your analog is wearing out I had the same problem. It got so bad that I couldn't reverse SHL so I went and got a new controller and solved the problem. Are able to reverse SHL in both directions?

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

Yeah I can reverse short hop laser in both directions no problem, which is what led me to believe its just the way falco works or something, but I wanted to ask anyways

 

[xman]

Falco is allowed to laser both directions anytime you want him to depending what direction the control stick is facing before you input B. it could be the control stick input, maybe you're leaning more to one side than going through the center. To avoid that error I use Y to B to ledge hop double laser in the same motion that a lot of foxes short hop double laser

 

[xNoVa007x]

Yeah I can reverse short hop laser in both directions no problem, which is what led me to believe its just the way falco works or something, but I wanted to ask anyways

i would say like many others in the discussion thread have stated, either your c-stick is wearing down or your influencing the DI by holding it to one direction to much. In order to fulfill the Short hop DL from the ledge you need to use Y and B like said many foxes use to short hop DL, this will not only help you at the ledge but with others combo's, so it all will help improve your combo's in many ways.

 

[BTmoney]

No, but I can make one, haha.
Non-stale nair can’t be shield-grabbed before your shine comes out if it was done after frame 7 (Jump 6 ) of your short hop or later and fast-falled as soon as possible.


No, that is not possible. It might be possible if nair is completely stale, but I can’t test staleness as quickly.
In the animation above, you can see that non-stale nair can’t even be shieldgrabbed before the shine if it’s done 5 frames before your short hop apex (Jump 11 ). IIRC, a completely stale nair ( ⇒ The last 9 times you’ve hit someone with an attack, it was nair) has 2 frames less hitlag and 3 frames less shieldstun than a non-stale nair. Thus, I guess even then shield grab would be impossible.

I had to look for a while to dig up this post lol, but could you please do this same "simple" situation for down air? everything the same except dair instead of nair--so I'm asking for the lowest dair that can be shield grabbed.

I been using the 20XX hack pack to make CPU's do frame-perfect shield grabs and sometimes I can get a dair shine and other times I get shield grabbed before the shine. I'm not doing the dair especially low, I'm doing them pretty normally and kind of poorly spaced, and placing them in relatively the same place, just to see if it can thwart shield grab if done correctly. I can't really tell where the discrepancy is.

 

[Oskurito]

Back to the moonwalk; I really want to do it. Badly. Is whether you actually perform it dependent on how fast your tilt motion is? This is what I'm doing now:

Walk at full speed in one direction - dash the other way - quickly tilt the stick diagonally down then sightly up (from 4 to in between 6 and 9 and then to 6)


123
456
789

Is this right?

Walk in one direction (fast walk), then tap the control stick in the opposite direction and do a half circle as fast as you can. I think any diagonal works so long as you don't pass through the center.

I feel like corner case tech stuff is just something to do between stocks. It's won't get you anywhere right now and it'll get way easier once you have a couple thousand hours of Falco in you.

When people ask about how to do shdl as fox on the fox boards they tend to just say "if you play enough it'll just happen." I feel like this is the same kind of thing.

It does help, watch mango with fox or falco, he does moonwalk + bair for edgeguards. Double laser with fox works really well to rack up %, watch m2k vs hbox.

I believe that you can learn these tricks if you practice effectively. Real practice takes effort and discipline. If you're having fun while practicing you're doing it wrong.

 

[MALVM MALVM]

It does help, watch mango with fox or falco, he does moonwalk + bair for edgeguards. Double laser with fox works really well to rack up %, watch m2k vs hbox.

I believe that you can learn these tricks if you practice effectively. Real practice takes effort and discipline. If you're having fun while practicing you're doing it wrong.

First, Mango could probably just as easily sh bair or wd off bair. They may or may not be better or worse options, but they do essentially the same thing. The times when moonwalk is better than wd or sh bair I think are non-existent, but if we take that they do exist, it's still a corner case and not really worth it.

Second, I definitely think you should be having fun while you're practicing. If you have to put 100+ hours of practice behind every hour of tourney play, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have fun while practicing. I love moving around the map, pressuring a handicap Bowser, and all that stuff, but mostly I like the feeling of improvement. When I finally figure something out, either theory or tech, I feel super good because I know I'm now more skilled at something I care about. I guess this is what you were getting at with your mention of discipline, this sense of improvement. Nevertheless, if you stop having fun, you should stop playing this game. It's not like either of us is going to be able to retire on our tourney winnings.

Yeah you can learn these techniques with some practice, but I figure don't sweat it; it won't matter until far in the future and by that point your fingers will just move way faster in general and everything'll be easier. In the mean time, SHFFL the shiznits out of stuff, shinegrab, vary laser height, reverse laser, do stuff as soon as you're out of endlag, and you'll win against more people. If you go monk mode and swear to never see the light of day until you can moonwalk, you're going to have a tough time and it won't get you anywhere.

 

[Oskurito]

[...]

If you have to put 100+ hours of practice behind every hour of tourney play, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have fun while practicing. I love moving around the map, pressuring a handicap Bowser, and all that stuff, but mostly I like the feeling of improvement. When I finally figure something out, either theory or tech, I feel super good because I know I'm now more skilled at something I care about. I guess this is what you were getting at with your mention of discipline, this sense of improvement. Nevertheless, if you stop having fun, you should stop playing this game. It's not like either of us is going to be able to retire on our tourney winnings.

You don't have to put 100 hours of practice, not even 2-3 hours a day, just 30min or 90min a day.

When you want to practice, you have to come in with a plan, let's say you've noticed these things lagging in your playstyle:
-Turn around waveshine
-Double shine
-Ledge hop double laser

Let's say we're not prioritizing any of those and we'll give 15 mins to practice each one. We'll practice like this:
Example with turn around waveshine

Part1
Warmup for speed and coordination:
Down + B -> Hold down + left -> press X or Y -> press L or R -> down + B -> hold down + right -> press X or Y -> press L or R -> repeat

Do this VERY slowly for 3mins non stop, rest for 30 seconds then do it for 2 mins at moderate speed, rest for 30 seconds and take off at full speed for 30 seconds (it doesn't matter if you mess up at this speed, this kind of practice is helpfull to build speed overtime, and it'll tell your body that faster speed is possible and it needs to be reached).

Part2
Developing the technique:
Turn your game on and practice the technique:
This time do moderate speed for 6 mins non stop, rest and then do 3 mins as fast as you can. If you mess up at any point during your training (Part2) STOP immediately and rest for 15 to 30 seconds and start again from there. Developing timing and coordination for the technique should always be a priority over speed. Failing to this can potentially develop bad habits, which leads to sloppy technique and lack of consistency, which can cost you a LOT on real match.

I think overdoing this can also lead to injury (some kind of tendonitis) and also lead to bad technique & bad habits because of your nervous system getting overloaded. But I srsly don't think someone could do this for more than 45 mins straight, it's stupid, just be patient and let your brain have some time to build that muscle memory.

You could run this routine like:15 mins when you get home and another 15 before you go to bed everyday, and in one month you should see significant progress.

I always sucked at moonwalking and I made BIG progress just by drilling it like this for 2 weeks. Then I have to admit I was lazy and I didn't practice for months but it eventually got better.

So yeah, you can actually train seriously and make awesome progress as fast as possible, or you can **** around and keep hoping that one day you'll be a master at it.

 

[OninO]

I like to set simple challenges like:
1) How many perfect shine OoS can I do in one minute?
2) How many perfect run->jump->waveland on platform can I do etc.

Set a round timer for 20 minutes and work through a rotation of 10 challenges twice, or whatever. New round, new stage, either the same or new depending on how I'm feeling about challenges. Focus on ones where I'm weak, etc.

 

[MALVM MALVM]

I really don't want this to spiral into an internet fight, so remember that we still love each other.

30 days/month * 1-3 months/tournament * .5 - 1.5 practice hours/day = 15-135 practice hours/tournament

You've been playing since '06, so you know this better than I do. Remember back when stuff was too hard to do because your fingers just couldn't move fast enough? Now, all that stuff that was so hard is a matter of course because your fingers are used to just moving faster and faster.

As for training, I think Daigo's pretty good, and his perspective on how to get better is also pretty good for all levels of play: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2frvdb/iama_daigo_the_beast_umehara_japans_first/ckc5kcr

Personally, I play 8 minutes on each viable stage in a random order and do... stuff. If in my last match I was like "wow I'm bad at incincible wd from ledge. I need to get better," I make sure to throw wd from ledge into the stuff I do as I run around the map. It's more free-form, so it should help you get better in general as well as in whatever you're focusing on that practice session.

Ultimately it's a matter of what floats your boat and lets you get better in a fast and fun way. I just thought your statement that having fun means you're practicing wrong is a little weird. Down that path lies raging and starting to only care about results as opposed to feeling good about getting good.

 

[BTmoney]

First, Mango could probably just as easily sh bair or wd off bair. They may or may not be better or worse options, but they do essentially the same thing. The times when moonwalk is better than wd or sh bair I think are non-existent, but if we take that they do exist, it's still a corner case and not really worth it.

Disagree but I still love you, there's rarely ever a spot where moonwalk is the only option but idk why people think moonwalking is only this flashy and bad thing. It gives you backwards momentum so you can reach out with a bair while facing backwards further than you normally could. Moonwalk also adds a layer of threatening/conditioning to your edge guards. You could do it then instead of jumping you could fall to the ledge or if you're good at it you can feign the jump backwards & ledge grab and simply stand still (so you just threatened 2 options but you're not in any lag). You can watch 1000 videos of mango doing it effectively and there's no reason why other people can't. I do it all the time because it's actually good with both Fox and Falco, more so Fox but still.

He does it 90% of the time in his edge guards vs Armada so it's a lot more than a suboptimal option.
It's just a less extreme version of what captain falcon does and has been doing for years. Other characters can make real use of it.
That's me just nitpicking but people don't seem to think about things as much as they should, innovate, or question why people play the way they do. It's even pretty good to throw in as a mix up for pressuring the ledge once they have it because if you encroach/over extend with your dash at the ledge people often will try to get off then or try to hit you. But this changes your position and momentum quickly and delays the way you move so it can be awkward and hard to read when you do it appropriately.

Just like any other tech it's how you use it, it's not "good" by itself. If you're still realllllly learning the game then you don't need it but you don't need most of the things people practice in their room in the beginning. (I moonwalk from walks and not dashes with every character, including falcon, and I find that I can do them near perfect/satisfactory when I need to)

 

[Jackson]

I'm starting to get some decent moon walks. Is there a way to make it last longer and be more noticeable?

 

[Oskurito]

I'm starting to get some decent moon walks. Is there a way to make it last longer and be more noticeable?

With spacies is better to walk then dash the opposite direction and do the moonwalk motion. The faster you do it the more noticeable it becomes. Speed will come with time as your technique matures.

 

[Jackson]

With spacies is better to walk then dash the opposite direction and do the moonwalk motion. The faster you do it the more noticeable it becomes. Speed will come with time as your technique matures.

Oh ok. Is there any way to alter the duration of the moonwalk? As in, make the slide last 1.5 seconds instead of 1.

 

[MALVM MALVM]

Oh ok. Is there any way to alter the duration of the moonwalk? As in, make the slide last 1.5 seconds instead of 1.

A moonwalk lasts as long as the initial dash animation, which is a constant. As long as you can dd in one direction is how long you can moonwalk. You can kinda extend the moonwalk by moving the control stick to the other side and then doing the same moonwalk input, but that's more moonwalking out of a moonwalk than extending it.

Also, my edgeguards are kinda bad, so TIL moonwalking'd help my edgeguards sometimes and it's something I should learn. I'm still going to put way more time and effort into getting my wavelands and pressure smoother, but thanks Oskurito and Blacktician for the enlightenment.

 

[Zotto]

When i shine someone at a low percent, when should I wavedash out of shine. Should I assume DI outwards (wavedash away), and then if they dont DI react to that by wavedashing backwards. The problem I am having with that is what if they DI in then im too far away to continue my combo. Can someone tell me the right way to approach this problem. Thanks

 

[Jackson]

A moonwalk lasts as long as the initial dash animation, which is a constant. As long as you can dd in one direction is how long you can moonwalk. You can kinda extend the moonwalk by moving the control stick to the other side and then doing the same moonwalk input, but that's more moonwalking out of a moonwalk than extending it.

Also, my edgeguards are kinda bad, so TIL moonwalking'd help my edgeguards sometimes and it's something I should learn. I'm still going to put way more time and effort into getting my wavelands and pressure smoother, but thanks Oskurito and Blacktician for the enlightenment.

Ahh... the moonwalk into moonwalk is what I'm talking about. So to do this, I would do the moonwalk motion (control stick ends on right), quickly the control stick to the left side, and repeat the motion?

 

[tauKhan]

Walk in one direction (fast walk), then tap the control stick in the opposite direction and do a half circle as fast as you can. I think any diagonal works so long as you don't pass through the center.

Whether or not you go through center is irrelevant.You only need to make sure you don't move the stick too fast when going through the turn threshold, because if your input registers as a smash input, you end up turning. I believe the turning threshold is sligthly bigger than the x coordinate of the diagonal notches of control stick. Thus it's easy to moonwalk right by aiming at -45, so that when you then roll the stick to 0° the movement will be naturally slow enough to not trigger turn, but still fast. Going through a whole half circle is unefficient.

A moonwalk lasts as long as the initial dash animation, which is a constant. As long as you can dd in one direction is how long you can moonwalk.

To elaborate on this, your dash becomes run on frame 12 if you keep holding direction. However the length of the dash animation if you don't go to run is 21 frames, and this is how long you can moonwalk.

Ahh... the moonwalk into moonwalk is what I'm talking about. So to do this, I would do the moonwalk motion (control stick ends on right), quickly the control stick to the left side, and repeat the motion?

Yes, but it's very hard with falco since he can only foxtrot on the very last frame of his dash. Thus to multimoonwalk you will have to be very precise with timings, or you will lose speed.

 

[Jackson]

Yes, but it's very hard with falco since he can only foxtrot on the very last frame of his dash. Thus to multimoonwalk you will have to be very precise with timings, or you will lose speed.

Thanks for the elaboration. Yeah, multimoonwalking seems ridiculously difficult. So cool looking though...

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

When i shine someone at a low percent, when should I wavedash out of shine. Should I assume DI outwards (wavedash away), and then if they dont DI react to that by wavedashing backwards. The problem I am having with that is what if they DI in then im too far away to continue my combo. Can someone tell me the right way to approach this problem. Thanks

It's for each character but generally you will always want to wavedash out, unless you're pillaring sheik or marth and they don't DI well

 

[Oskurito]

Thanks for the elaboration. Yeah, multimoonwalking seems ridiculously difficult. So cool looking though...

I recommend you to learn how to do it with falcon first, is easier and is a good start.

Also, thank you for correcting me about the center thing, I didn't knew it wasn't needed. To be honest, I never worry about that when I moonwalk, I focus on doing the motion fast and accurate.

 

[whitemountain123]

Can I get some advice on how to play against a ledge-camping puff?

Obviously, if I have the lead, I don't need to approach, but what do I do when the puff has the lead and is willing to go to time-out?

For clarity, mostly what the puffs I've played against have done is some combination of the following:
—drop down and away to then dj sweetspot the ledge repeatedly.
—fair onstage with invincibility and immediately regrab ledge.

It seems really hard to hit them from onstage (let's say, with fsmash, dtilt, dair—down angled ftilt sometimes works but doesn't give me much) if they dj sweetspot the ledge, which makes me want to grab the ledge. But to grab the ledge before they can dj sweetspot it, I have to be pretty close to start with, and that's when I get invincible fair-ed. Even if I do manage to grab the ledge, the risk/reward just seems so tilted in puff's favor.

@ Dr Peepee Sorry to single you out for suggestions, but do you have any advice on dealing with this as far as mindset? I find that a big part of the issue is that once I do have puff onstage I'm a combination of frustrated (esp. since I haven't been so successful at dealing with the ledge stuff) + feeling pressured to hit them since I don't know when they'll go back to the ledge, so I play my neutral game less patiently/calmly than I normally would. The frustration is amplified by the fact that the two puffs who have done this to me are two players I was undefeated against before they started using this tactic.

Thanks guys!