PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Zotto · Oct 25, 2014

Hey guys I have recently hit a ceiling in my play. I have tech skill and decent movement for my skill level, but I am unable to combo specific characters like sheik, I am having a hard time learning how to DI, and generally need help with my approach game. Any help is really appreciated, thank you.

Xyzz · Oct 27, 2014

I don't really know how you would quantify 'good techskill and movement for your skill level', if you basically are asking for help with pretty much everything else in a super broad fashion

Anyways,
combos: level1 to 4 make for excellent punching bags. Pick a character you can't combo quite to your liking, some random stage and get to work. Watching videos for inspiration is also nice. Intersect either with playing people and seeing if you can work in these things in your actual gameplay. Especially cpu combos might not really work too well on humans who can nair/dj out of stuff.
DI: try to get used to holding away (possibly slightly down as well, if you can manage) if you think they want to hit you again, and in and towards when you think they want to send you off. Just takes practice. You can start with getting the right DI on easy things; the prime example is floaties in PAL vs sheik's downthrow. It's really easy to react to (30ish frames from animationstart till you get send flying) and the effect is that she doesn't get anything from it, instead of an aerial follow up.
At later stages you can start finetuning your DI to be more exact for different moves and their specific angles, or what you actually think your opponent is cooking up exactly... or include fancy slideoffs from ledges to cancel all lag (I love those :D)... but just the basic premise of AWAY and DOWN (or just away if in doubt) for combos and UP + TOWARDS (or just up) for horizontal finishers will take you a long way (away is obviously a good choice for vertical finishers).
approaches: mix up what you're doing, react to openings your opponent gives you. Be able to do what you want to do.
It's obviously a really, really broad field here. The easiest way to get punished for your approaches is if you do the same thing over and over in the same situation where they can interact with your option. E.g. that means if you do laser into low aerial with the same timing you are just asking to get naired OOS by people who know their timings (few do yay).
It's also pretty sad if they do sth punishable and you don't capitalize with an approach because you weren't ready for it (e.g. they fsmash thin air and all you get is a laser when you could've jumped in and all they could've done is shield).
And well messing up stuff that would work is also a no-go. If you can't do some option, don't do so in tournament matches (but you might still want to practice it in friendlies)

Jackson · Oct 29, 2014

I frequently miss the L cancel on full hop dair. Assuming I dair at the peak of my double jump, hit the opponent, and begin fast falling, should i press L at that moment or wait until just before i touch the ground?

FriendGuy · Oct 30, 2014

I would just focus on l-cancelling right before I hit the ground. it's easier to think of it in terms of "where" instead of "when", because "where" is easier to see than "when".

Jackson · Oct 30, 2014

FriendGuy said:
I would just focus on l-cancelling right before I hit the ground. it's easier to think of it in terms of "where" instead of "when", because "where" is easier to see than "when".

Good point, thanks.

Zotto · Nov 1, 2014

How should I practice approaching with falco against computers? Thanks.

Bones0 · Nov 2, 2014

Zotto said:
How should I practice approaching with falco against computers? Thanks.

You can only really practice approaching vs. humans. Computers will never DDWD around and punish bad SHFFLs.

SpiderMad · Nov 2, 2014

Bones0 said:
You can only really practice approaching vs. humans. Computers will never DDWD around and punish bad SHFFLs.

What's your advice vs Luigi?

Do you prefer your hard press clicks and springs to be smooth and unnoticeably weak?

Bones0 · Nov 2, 2014

SpiderMad said:
What's your advice vs Luigi?

Do you prefer your hard press clicks and springs to be smooth and unnoticeably weak?

You almost always want to DI his uthrow/dthrow behind him (even when you get grabbed at the ledge). Use lasers to control the ground. Be hyper aware of his WD approaches, including platform WLs towards you if you're near the edge of a plat. Use the top plat to escape pressure since Luigi struggles to get up there in time to do anything and you can get down fairly easily as long as you are patient and smart about it. Utilt beats Luigi falling down with a nair, and I think it might even beat dair honestly. You really want to avoid trades in this matchup so it's usually better to bait aerials and just space bairs instead, but knowing when you can get the utilt for sure is really helpful. I'd be willing to do a breakdown on my last recorded set vs. Vist (since I know what I was thinking/trying to do at the time) and compare that to a better Falco vs. a different Luigi if that's something people would be interested in. I'm studying matches now anyway.

Idk what you mean by the second question. Do I prefer springs with more or less resistance? I've never really noticed any difference in spring strength even with decade old controllers.

SpiderMad · Nov 2, 2014

What should I do concerning stages in a bo3/bo5 vs Luigi?

Should I be going for grabs? What throw should I use?

There's definitely huge shoulder trigger differences in people's controllers, maybe you haven't felt enough; aside from actual modification like Kadano mentions.

How do I know what stages suit me in a Falco ditto?

Bones0 · Nov 2, 2014

SpiderMad said:
What should I do concerning stages in a bo3/bo5 vs Luigi?

Bones0 said:
It depends on the player. You should base your bans and counterpicks on why you lost game 1, not which stage is "supposed" to be the best for that matchup.

That said, here are the general pros and cons of each stage. If you are struggling in an aspect or able to abuse a weakness, you should select a stage that diminishes or enhances these effects. I think BF's two pros are very helpful for game 1 so you can feel out your opponent and get used to how he responds to different stuff.
(As a side note, I think this effect is actually why we see so much BF game 1 in general. It isn't always the best pick, but it's usually the safest whereas picking YS or DL might play to your opponent's style.)

YS
Pros: small blastzones; top plat allows escapes; attacks poke through side plats well (safe way to punish him falling back down w/o trading); minimal room for him to WD; easier to stay on top of him because he doesn't have room to slide away
Cons: cramped area gives him easier combo followups; top plat is more accessible than BF/DL; invul ledgedash covers a significant portion of the stage; side plats are easy for Luigi to SH aerial you through

FoD
Pros: small side blastzones; top plat allows escapes; minimal room for him to WD; easier to stay on top of him because he doesn't have room to slide away; low plats make shield pressure more viable/safer
Cons: high ceiling; low plats can allow him to aerial you from above as he comes down; plats can mess up laser game; top plat is more accessible than BF/DL; invul ledgedash covers a significant portion of the stage; lack of or low side plats hinders recovery

BF
Pros: highest top plat; length is flexible for both pressuring and lasering
Cons: no wall for recoveries; wide plats offers him more waveland aerial opportunities

DL
Pros: high top plat; wide stage; platforms spaced far apart (all conducive to heavy camping)
Cons: huge blastzones; difficult to extend combos and juggles; hard to pressure and trap

FD
Pros: lack of plats hinders his recovery; platform WLing cannot help him circumvent lasers/spaced aerials; easier to maintain juggles than on non-YS stages; harder to true combo
Cons: lack of plats hinders your recovery; lack of top plat restricts mobility; stronger punish game (tech chasing and no plats to land on)

PS
Pros: Luigi struggles traversing certain transformations; attacks poke through side plats well (safe way to punish him falling back down w/o trading)
Cons: good horizontal survivability; no top plat to retreat to; side plats are easy for Luigi to SH aerial you through

Zotto · Nov 2, 2014

whats the best way to build percent against a sheik during the early part of her stock?

tschafer64 · Nov 3, 2014

Are there any "true" setups for falco's f-smash? I currently use laser>f-smash and tech read>f-smash but against better players these are usually a 50/50. I am wondering if there is anything like fox's jab>up-smash for falco's f-smash?

smoke070 · Nov 3, 2014

Bones0 · Nov 3, 2014

tschafer64 said:
Are there any "true" setups for falco's f-smash? I currently use laser>f-smash and tech read>f-smash but against better players these are usually a 50/50. I am wondering if there is anything like fox's jab>up-smash for falco's f-smash?

You can react to tech options with fsmash if you are on point. Outside of that, I frequently combo into fsmash from dair, nair, and bair. It's just all about percents, how you condition your opponent to DI, and how you use the different hitboxes of each move. Against spacies specifically, you can even combo into fsmash right after a waveshine, and bthrow can also lead to fsmash in certain scenarios (though I'm not sure if this true combos). Laser -> fsmash is extremely risky vs. grounded opponents and not something I would recommend, but if they are airborne it can sometimes be worth going for even if they are able to attack or DJ out. The timing is hard, and even if they get an attack out they will often just trade which will usually be in your favor.

Bones0 · Nov 3, 2014

smoke070 said:
hi guys, i'm really having a hard time getting better with falco. i took a ton of footage from some friendlies yesterday so it could be analyzed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vfzQoTpHc

any help would be appreciated, thanks. and if anyone wants to practice on netplay feel free to PM me.

Your main problems are simply tech skill and overall fluency (moving from one sequence of a fight to another without hesitation or "thinking time"). I'll give a quick run-through of more detailed problems for the first match of the first video, though:

0:12 - You can't dair airborne opponents at low %s like that because they landing cancel and are able to immediately shield, shine, or whatever.
0:14 - Your opponent was too low of a % for dash attack to yield any good results. Move choice is very important in Melee, so a good way to start picking the best attacks is to constantly eliminate moves that are less likely to help you. At low %s, your goal is generally to build % which means can mostly ignore options like DA or jab because they won't start combos. At high %s when you want the KO, you can focus less on combo moves like utilt which is probably not going to lead into anything with the increased KB.
0:18 - After he missed that tech in front of you, you could have jab reset. Being able to react to all the different tech options is really helpful, and even if it's too hard at first, just predict one option and punish it if they do it. If they don't, then make sure you aren't just hard reading. So for example, if you predict that missed tech, a good punish would be turnaround utilt. If he techrolls away, you might not be able to react in time to cover it, but you also shouldn't still utilt.
0:27 - Practicing getting onto the ledge as quickly as possible to edgehog, or if you don't think you have time, at least know the best way to hit them (you could have WDed forward and dsmashed his up-B).
1:35 - Dair tends to be better at low %s because it is harder to CC and will consequently lead into your shine pillars better.
1:40 - This is actually exactly what I talked about above concerning reacting to techs. It seems like you thought all of the utilts would combo, but you have to focus on the opponent's character so that if he does techroll in like that, you can at least follow him with a SHL and maintain stage control.
2:33 - Try not to roll instinctively any time your shield gets hit. If they use a laggy attack on your shield, be ready to punish. In this situation you could have daired OoS, and that's a good default option for most laggy moves. Attacks that have faster cooldowns will have to be countered with quicker OoS options like shine or grab.
2:38 - Get in the habit of DIing upwards at higher %s. Going off at a low angle like that is really bad for Falco and can make a huge difference in the long run.

Overall, you seem relatively well rounded in your problems, nothing too glaring. With some more solid tech, you will be able to improve in no time, especially with the ability to play online and record your own videos. Never underestimate the power of rewatching your matches and trying to critique them yourself like I did above. Just to practice studying, I recommend taking the notes I gave you and going through a few more of your matches and finding situations where you did similar mistakes. If a mistake appears multiple times in different matches, then you know it is of higher priority to correct because it is a more common issue. Eventually you will be correcting issues mid-game because you will get in the habit of identifying mistakes and problems and coming up with a solution.

smoke070 · Nov 3, 2014

Bones0 said:
[snip]

Wow, thank you so much!! Really. I'm gonna keep uploading and critiquing my own play and definitely think about what you said

As far as techskill i'm going to work on wavedash and waveland first.. because I never do either consistently.

Jackson · Nov 4, 2014

I frequently have trouble following up on throws... what throws should i be using most of the time, and what are good followups?

Also, how do I shield pressure, and practice shield pressure?

Bones0 · Nov 4, 2014

Jackson said:
I frequently have trouble following up on throws... what throws should i be using most of the time, and what are good followups?

Also, how do I shield pressure, and practice shield pressure?

Emulate top Falcos.

The best way to practice shield pressure is to get a Wii with the 20xx Hack Pack, but you can also just use a Bowser with high handicap and pummel him to get used to the JC and FF timing with hitlag.

Captain Smuckers · Nov 4, 2014

Hey guys, I was wondering if you could help me out by critiquing a match or two of mine against dj nintendo. I've lost to him 4 times in a row and really want something to finally push me over the edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLksG8mRXfM&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEfoU5elZw

here are my two most recent sets with him. he plays a very slow style and I'm not particularly good at dealing with that so I was hoping you guys could give me some pointers, thanks

Zotto · Nov 4, 2014

Take this with a grain of salt Smuckers, as you're a much better falco than I am. I noticed that you never grabbed DJ once, so you were never really using the platforms as much as you could have. Hope this helps.

Captain Smuckers · Nov 4, 2014

Zotto said:
Take this with a grain of salt Smuckers, as you're a much better falco than I am. I noticed that you never grabbed DJ once, so you were never really using the platforms as much as you could have. Hope this helps.

no salt needed lol. I really appreciate you even just taking the time to watch it, thanks for the input. I'll definitely look into utilizing grabs more

Bones0 · Nov 4, 2014

Captain Smuckers said:
Hey guys, I was wondering if you could help me out by critiquing a match or two of mine against dj nintendo. I've lost to him 4 times in a row and really want something to finally push me over the edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLksG8mRXfM&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEfoU5elZw

here are my two most recent sets with him. he plays a very slow style and I'm not particularly good at dealing with that so I was hoping you guys could give me some pointers, thanks

Usually, when I see Falco lose vs. Fox, it tends to be a result of doing unsafe stuff (getting DD grabbed when SHFFLing) or getting overwhelmed (constantly getting knocked down by shines and tech chased). In your Dream Land match, this isn't the case at all. The majority of DJ's tactics seem heavily reliant on hard reads. If you just watch his perspective, you can see wild attempts to hit you that only work if he guesses correctly, but are generally pretty safe if he misses. For example, at 2:35 you space a nair and he just goes for the runup grab. I think most Foxes would do a running shine as a safer way to cover you standing still and then work the situation from there, but he just grabs and buffers roll away when he realizes he missed. Seconds later, you do a SH and he just SH shines the air space you were in right after you DJ away. A few more seconds, and he SHFFLs the ground after you FH to the top plat. Now obviously Melee requires tons of mini reads like these because you can't react to all the fast movement, but I think if your opponent is that willing to go for reads, you should worry less about approaching and more about countering his approach because unless he has a read on your habits, the odds are in your favor. This feels especially true with Falco who can laser DD and wall out ways around those with safe hitboxes (AC bair, utilt) or just FH away.

So I sort of went off on a tangent, but I guess my main point is that it didn't feel like he was doing anything meaningful on his end. The only reason it was even close was because of stuff on your end. Your lack of grabs was DEFINITELY hurting you the most out of everything this set. Honestly, whenever I feel like I don't know why I lost a match, I tend to just think about whether I was going for a lot of grabs or hardly any, and switch to the other end of the spectrum. As Falcos, I think it's very natural to be happy when we aerial someone's shield safely, but ultimately the goal is to hit them. If they can shield attacks all day and never get punished for it, then we aren't doing proper shield pressure. I try to just think of grab as the ultimate shield pressure because it negates any possible escapes once it hits their shield. Shine grab is also good obviously, but most of the aerials you landed on his shield were passing aerials where you land far away. You had very few aerials that landed deep and low on his shield that would enable you to initiate good shine pressure (which I think is much more valuable/dangerous than things like nair through and utilt/AC bair, hoping they jump into it).

Another side effect of how you were spacing is you had little to no punishes going on. Staying safe in neutral is important, but because he didn't seem to be overwhelming you, I think that should allow for less defensive utilting/AC bairing and more attempts to connect with dair or even something like a WD back shine. A lot of people will see themselves beat their opponent in neutral with defensive moves like AC bair and get mad they couldn't punish, but it's not really a fault of yours, it's just that the tool isn't designed to combo into stuff. If you need combos (which you did drastically), you have to use more combo-oriented tools. Dair, shine, and grab (especially since it's Fox), are the big ones here. A great example of these is in Mango vs. Fiction from KoC4. I actually just watched this yesterday, and it's incredible how hard Mango's punishes are BECAUSE of how he gets his hits. Anyone can get a million love taps per game because opponents aren't playing around those options. Unfortunately, I have to go to work, but I will go into more stuff next time I get a chance because I can actually relate to a lot of the things you are struggling with in this set (plus I only glanced at the YS match and haven't watched the other vid). Just lmk what you think of my perspective so far. Here's the match mentioned above:

Captain Smuckers · Nov 4, 2014

Bones0 said:
stuff

damn bones LOL

I really appreciate you going into depth so much, it definitely gave me a lot to think about it. The strange thing about my lack of grabs is that I usually go for them pretty often, but for some reason not against dj as much. I think you're right though that I'm playing a little too safe for how underwhelming his playstyle is. I just get somewhat scared against him, dunno why. But yeah I definitely need to work on my punish game biiiiiiiig time. Far too many things dropped. The biggest of which, I would say, is edgeguards. I get like literally none against him lol. Back to the lab I go!

thanks a ton dude

Alexander Duprey · Nov 4, 2014

Captain Smuckers said:
Hey guys, I was wondering if you could help me out by critiquing a match or two of mine against dj nintendo. I've lost to him 4 times in a row and really want something to finally push me over the edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLksG8mRXfM&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEfoU5elZw

here are my two most recent sets with him. he plays a very slow style and I'm not particularly good at dealing with that so I was hoping you guys could give me some pointers, thanks

I only watched the first set, but you were getting punished for whiffing Fsmash, but you kept doing it, even to the point you lost a stock trading with upsmash and maybe another stock just because you missed and got punished.

Also on yoshis, you got a meaty shine combo but opted for upsmash when I think fsmash would have worked, or maybe nair/fair, litterally anything else to get fox offstage. Instead he stayed onstage and that was it, you got like 50 damage instead of an edge guard opportunity.

That's what I picked up without watching it too intently. I've never given advice before since I'm kinda new but I figured it can't hurt. Also I totally know how you feel about being afraid/scared of the slow patient fox, I have one of those in my region and whenever we play, it's like peeling an onion, at first you get the slow upsmash/uthrow heavy option select fox, then once you get past that it's like a barrage of mixups.

Bones0 · Nov 5, 2014

Captain Smuckers said:
damn bones LOL

I really appreciate you going into depth so much, it definitely gave me a lot to think about it. The strange thing about my lack of grabs is that I usually go for them pretty often, but for some reason not against dj as much. I think you're right though that I'm playing a little too safe for how underwhelming his playstyle is. I just get somewhat scared against him, dunno why. But yeah I definitely need to work on my punish game biiiiiiiig time. Far too many things dropped. The biggest of which, I would say, is edgeguards. I get like literally none against him lol. Back to the lab I go!

thanks a ton dude

You may have not been in a grabbing mindset because he was platform camping so much. When you spend several minutes (aka a century in Melee) trying to peg a plat camping Fox with random bairs/nairs/lasers, it's hard to keep in mind that you should grab as soon as you get him back on the ground.

Tityboi · Nov 5, 2014

Captain Smuckers said:
Hey guys, I was wondering if you could help me out by critiquing a match or two of mine against dj nintendo. I've lost to him 4 times in a row and really want something to finally push me over the edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLksG8mRXfM&list=UUwdVytA5FmjUEUBbc28h9QA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLEfoU5elZw

here are my two most recent sets with him. he plays a very slow style and I'm not particularly good at dealing with that so I was hoping you guys could give me some pointers, thanks

You don't need to read this if you don't want to. I've been trying to analyze other people's sets as means for my own improvement, so I'm sort of doing this for myself... I also haven't looked at what other people said so its likely that I repeat some stuff.

With that being said, I think there a couple things that you really need to work on;
1) Edgeguarding: You hardly ever finished an edgeguard with a kill, the first time you got him off stage. You actually did a good job using lasers as a way to get him below the ledge, but once he was there you couldn't finish your food. When falco forces someone to recover below the ledge it should be pretty much free from there. In the current meta, covering ledge against fox should be the number one priority until you start to get a read on your opponents recovery. Whether or not you get that read from previous sets or the current one doesn't really matter. But IMO east coast fox's love the ledge.

2) Pressure: The first type of pressure I think you should work on is shield pressure. You got him in his shield often enough, but as soon as you did you would go for like a crossup dair or nair and then uptilt when you were behind him. It could have worked if DJ tried to act OoS quickly, but he's a pretty patient fox. This is a player specific aspect that I think you didn't adapt to very well. Try to dairing/nairing his shield, then mix up shinegrab, waveshine back and just straight up lasering his shield. You don't always have to start a combo when you get him in shield, but you should really be using this opportunity to make him uncomfortable. I like lasering his shield. Its a pretty safe way to keep the pressure on even if he rolls away or something. The next area of pressure that needs work is when knock him down. He pretty much got up for free everytime you knocked him down and didn't immediately hit him again. This is another instance where I think lasering is good. You can keep pressure on one option while straight covering others. Dashdancing works here, as well as just crouching next to him (Situational).

3) Smart Combos: You really really need to work on making smarter combo decisions. Falco has all the tools to combo in whatever ways you want, its understanding when to use them thats the hard part. Something you should be thinking about in friendlies is when do I want to combo for percent, when do I want to combo for stage control, and when do you want to combo him so he ends up offstage. The one you need to work on is comboing to get him offstage, there were only like 2-3 times I noticed where you finished a combo and DJ was off stage. I think the main problem here was the somewhat strange comboing decisions you made when you got him to the top platform. You did upthrow a couple times, one time you up-smashed him after like a shine or something. IIRC, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you I think you play fox or used to play fox, right? To me, these are fox main playing/switching to falco decisions.

I think doing smarter combos is the part of your game that needs the most work. It's also the part of your game that, once you improve, will put you on that next level you were talking about. IMO the best falcos to watch if you want to combo smarter are Zhu and PP. Try watching a couple sets of theirs and analyze the combos. Watch the set until you see a meaty combo. Then start taking notes. Something I want to start doing is breaking the combo into three parts (Beginning, Middle, End), noting the specifics of each part and the decisions made, and then trying to understand the relationship between those three parts. Basically you would go to the beginning of the combo and ask yourself a couple of questions. How did the combo start? Where did the combo start? At what percent did it start? Then watch the middle and study each move used. Analyze how that move affected the combo and why they used that move instead of another. Finally, at the end of the combo, ask yourself some more questions. Is the opponent off stage and/or did they gain any significant stage advantage? Did the opponent die? Did they wrack up significant percent? If the answer is no to those question then think about what went wrong. Once you have analyzed someone else's videos, do it again with your own videos and compare your notes.

Your a lot better than I am, so this might not mean that much to you, but I needed to do this for myself too. Anyway, if you read this thanks, if not, oh well!

Edit: Sorry this is a wall of text btw, I took a **** ton of adderall this morning and I couldn't stop typing after I started lol.

SpiderMad · Nov 5, 2014

Bones0 said:
You may have not been in a grabbing mindset because he was platform camping so much. When you spend several minutes (aka a century in Melee) trying to peg a plat camping Fox with random bairs/nairs/lasers, it's hard to keep in mind that you should grab as soon as you get him back on the ground.

I need the grabbing mindset because Up-throw shine is pivotal in beating Fox? One of my controller has a sunk in Z-button, and makes me mess up (Shine Jump U-air) and go for less Shine grabs. Can't decide if I should try tinkering with it to stick out a little better; probably need to replace the whole controller except for the triggers I love. It's super loose (from my friends who use to use it) but I like and don't like the looseness at the same time:as in its a bit over-loose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDGnmZbN8I

Jackson · Nov 5, 2014

So, I know when I asked about grab followups, Bones said to watch pro Falcos. This is all well and good, but can I get some standard throw followups I can try out? Just list 'em.

Binx · Nov 5, 2014

Im having a lot of trouble hitting shine out of shield on fox aerials, what time should I input the jump?

Jackson · Nov 5, 2014

Binx said:
Im having a lot of trouble hitting shine out of shield on fox aerials, what time should I input the jump?

Shine oos is definitely a struggle for me as well.

Zotto · Nov 5, 2014

How can I use the 20xx hack pack to make the name entry glitch (making it just me playing), or do I need to do the name entry glitch?

Tityboi · Nov 5, 2014

Jackson said:
So, I know when I asked about grab followups, Bones said to watch pro Falcos. This is all well and good, but can I get some standard throw followups I can try out? Just list 'em.

Here is a hint: Falco's upthrow is pretty much the only throw that actually combos into something. Its on you to figure out specific followups, you can do this by following Bone's advice, searching smashboards, and/or figuring them out yourself.

Binx said:
Im having a lot of trouble hitting shine out of shield on fox aerials, what time should I input the jump?

You should be doing shine OoS after early aerials when shield stun ends, or before late aerials.

Xyzz · Nov 6, 2014

Uthrow can be flimsy, because of (A)SDI (or lack thereof) on the lasers. So actually hitting them can sometimes be tricky.
Starting relatively early (especially against non fast fallers) the only way to hit them is FJ aerial / shine. Which specific one depends on how you want to continue the combo, and really depends on the stage position/percents they're at... e.g. shine can be really nice, but probably requires a nearby platform to WL on. Or if you want to continue the combo at all, sometimes it's perfectly fine to hit a strong bair. Fair can be used at lower percents against Marth or similar characters, because there isn't really a way to follow up, but usually quite a few hits will connect and so the damage is maximized.
At early percents against fast fallers, SH nair > rergrab, or upsmash can work (I think the upsmash can usually be DIed or jumped out of, most people don't do so, though).

Bones0 · Nov 6, 2014

Binx said:
Im having a lot of trouble hitting shine out of shield on fox aerials, what time should I input the jump?

There are only two different timings you need to know in order to perform a shine OoS.
1. The shield stun on the opponent's attack.
2. Falco's jumpsquat.

You can calculate the first with KirbyKaze's thread ("Frame Advantage on Block"), but ultimately the frame data won't help your jump OoS timing. Just try to jump OoS as soon as you think stun is over and if you aren't jumping, just delay it slightly more. The second is a set timing that you can practice with obvious results of success or failure. Go into Training Mode and hold shield, press Y, then shine. If you are in the air, you did your shine too slow. Sometimes this is adequate, but at least try to get a shine very low to the ground. If you stick to the ground, you timed it perfectly. If your shine doesn't come out (pressed it too early) or comes out a decent amount off the ground (too late), then keep practicing.

Once you get these two timings down, you can consistently shine OoS. The catch is that just because you can perform the shine OoS doesn't mean you have time to do it before Fox can land and shine or other characters can jab. Like with the shield stun on moves, you have to naturally gain a feel for the window between aerials and shines/jabs/whatever attack they may use on your shield. The sooner the opponent appears to be landing after the aerial connects with your shield, the less frame advantage you will have. Pay attention to how far they are from the ground when they hit your shield, and just figure out when it's safe to shine OoS through trial and error.

Zotto said:
How can I use the 20xx hack pack to make the name entry glitch (making it just me playing), or do I need to do the name entry glitch?

YouTube "name entry glitch" and there is a video detailing how to do it

Jackson · Nov 6, 2014

Thanks for the up throw advice.

Sometimes I also attempt to tech chase my friends with Dthrow.

tschafer64 · Nov 6, 2014

Sometimes when I am following a tech roll or trying to follow DI I find that Falco's ground speed is quite lackluster. What is the fastest way to cover ground as Falco? Should I try incorporating more dash->WD to close the distance or is there a more effcient way to chase with?

OninO · Nov 6, 2014

I'm very noob, and I haven't figured out how to integrate it, but I think laser might be a good way to "cover ground", like you could short hop laser slightly towards the hardest to cover option (maybe roll away?) then follow it up with a nair if they did roll that way, or else dd back to grab or wd back to shine or whatever.

Bones0 · Nov 6, 2014

tschafer64 said:
Sometimes when I am following a tech roll or trying to follow DI I find that Falco's ground speed is quite lackluster. What is the fastest way to cover ground as Falco? Should I try incorporating more dash->WD to close the distance or is there a more effcient way to chase with?

If you have enough time and need to go all the way across the stage, doing a Phantasm an inch off the ground is actually the fastest way to cover ground. Other than that, get in the habit of initiating your movement with a WD instead of a dash, and make sure your WDs are as crispy as possible (crispy meaning frame perfect on the airdodge and at the most shallow angle possible).

Tityboi · Nov 6, 2014

Bones0 said:
If you have enough time and need to go all the way across the stage, doing a Phantasm an inch off the ground is actually the fastest way to cover ground. Other than that, get in the habit of initiating your movement with a WD instead of a dash, and make sure your WDs are as crispy as possible (crispy meaning frame perfect on the airdodge and at the most shallow angle possible).

Would dash-immediate WD be faster?

PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

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