PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I only know throw DI intuitively lol. Good correction.

That other question is pretty dependent on % of opponent and stage positioning. Also if it's peach if she's hit by the lasers you can still punish(so the actions before the grab matter too.)

Most of the time you can kind of predict their DI(intuitive but I think most people DI throws out?) and set up position to pseudo combo into FH/DJ Bair if you're a bit more aggressive, or at least threaten with it and then FH Bair or bait them to fall into Utilt. It's like a modified form of Marth juggling but your outranging spacing is very specific(back to them and above you pretty directly) as opposed to Marth's(anywhere above you and preferably also in front....overall space is easier to adjust since his ground movement is better.) You also get rewarded for hitting them more immediately usually(easier setup/kill vs Marth's sometimes laborious juggles), but the setup for the juggle is way more annoying and it's also annoying to position yourself since you're slow. Reminding yourself to move and constantly threaten with Bair/Utilt is extremely strong mentally imo. I sadly only have vs Hbox TO9 where I consistently do this well, but I entirely believe it's possible to do this consistently vs the characters you mentioned(or implied probably.)

If you're by the edge as you implied, then Fthrowing them off is good but ONLY if you work on some good edgeguard setups. I'm honestly not sure if Falco can really gimp those characters reliably but I will also say I've been kind of uninterested in figuring it out. I might go figure it out for Peach though because it could be a great mixup vs Uthrow. I also think there's a % threshold like 15-20% before throw where your Fthrow killing potential becomes viable and before it Dair just doesn't do much. That's more of an intuitive test rule though so take it for what you will.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah I only know throw DI intuitively lol. Good correction.

That other question is pretty dependent on % of opponent and stage positioning. Also if it's peach if she's hit by the lasers you can still punish(so the actions before the grab matter too.)

Most of the time you can kind of predict their DI(intuitive but I think most people DI throws out?) and set up position to pseudo combo into FH/DJ Bair if you're a bit more aggressive, or at least threaten with it and then FH Bair or bait them to fall into Utilt. It's like a modified form of Marth juggling but your outranging spacing is very specific(back to them and above you pretty directly) as opposed to Marth's(anywhere above you and preferably also in front....overall space is easier to adjust since his ground movement is better.) You also get rewarded for hitting them more immediately usually(easier setup/kill vs Marth's sometimes laborious juggles), but the setup for the juggle is way more annoying and it's also annoying to position yourself since you're slow. Reminding yourself to move and constantly threaten with Bair/Utilt is extremely strong mentally imo. I sadly only have vs Hbox TO9 where I consistently do this well, but I entirely believe it's possible to do this consistently vs the characters you mentioned(or implied probably.)

If you're by the edge as you implied, then Fthrowing them off is good but ONLY if you work on some good edgeguard setups. I'm honestly not sure if Falco can really gimp those characters reliably but I will also say I've been kind of uninterested in figuring it out. I might go figure it out for Peach though because it could be a great mixup vs Uthrow. I also think there's a % threshold like 15-20% before throw where your Fthrow killing potential becomes viable and before it Dair just doesn't do much. That's more of an intuitive test rule though so take it for what you will.

Most people just DI behind me and totally avoid the lasers. I can usually get the followup otherwise. I actually rewatched your TO9 set vs. Hbox quite recently. He usually got hit by the lasers and didn't SDI, but I do recall him SDIing really far at one point and you just knew he would go that way and DJ baired him like a god. lol Next time I play, I will focus more on FHing near them and punishing whatever they do instead of getting a direct followup or just waiting on the ground.

My mentality with fthrowing Peach off is that even if I can't edgeguard outside of a fluke dair/dsmash because they misspaced, I can at least force them to take the ledge and from there I am quite comfortable keeping her from getting back on because of her bad ledge options. The only problem is fthrow never seems to throw her very far so even at 2/3rd stage distance it seems futile. I've tried bthrowing as a mixup after I saw Westballz try it vs. Armada at SKTAR, but he never got anything off of it and nothing I got seemed consistent, so I'm not sure what he was really going for.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay behind feels more correct. Then grabbing them with your back to the edge(even when more in the middle of the level) is super good arguably since Bthrow vs Uthrow mixup could trip up their DI well. Err backing up, if they DI Uthrow more towards the edge then they can't press forward on jump because your Bair will meet them. This forces them to go more off of the level and it makes it easier to control them coming onto the stage(or technically stage space from high up). They could DI in to avoid this but Bthrow DI in is not what you want either. Seems pretty solid to me and I think combos on Bthrow DI in work on Peach at least since she's thrown fast enough. For the fatter guys that might not work but throwing them up is easier then to control them at most low-mid to highish percents. Man I love figuring out Falco's throw game lol.

I actually meant more of what happened when the floaty was hit high/dodged the lasers instead of how people currently handle Uthrow. The meta has been slow catching up to my Uthrow spam I did for several years haha.

Yeah you have to be SUPER close to the edge to make Fthrow work probably. Bthrow is slightly more comfy(at more distances relative to the edge or in general) perhaps since she's close to you at an awkward vertical positioning so you could work Utilt/Bair/perhaps yolo things there lol. It SEEMS like an edgeguard/gimp should be possible with her slow double jump but her airdodge and trade potential and somewhat annoying up-B might be enough to frustrate the position. I agree that holding her when she's actually grabbed the edge is good, but it gives lots of power back to peach overall that I would rather take with a kill if possible =p

 

[orvs]

hey guys, if you do a wavedash from the ledge as soon as you are able to let go of it, do you retain invincibility for the whole duration of the wavedash?
sorry if this question was posted somewhere before.

 

[Bones0]

hey guys, if you do a wavedash from the ledge as soon as you are able to let go of it, do you retain invincibility for the whole duration of the wavedash?
sorry if this question was posted somewhere before.

Yes.

http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-20#post-16761069
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-pre-ledgegrab-body-states-affect-your-ledgedash-timing.346128/

 

[Jackson]

Is ledgedashing worthwhile for Falco? I see a lot of people SD with it.

 

[Russ The Love Muss]

Is ledgedashing worthwhile for Falco? I see a lot of people SD with it.

It is if you don't SD lol

 

[Alexander Duprey]

pretty sure if you get the frame perfect/max distance ledgedash you can squeeze a mostly invincible uptilt in

 

[Bones0]

pretty sure if you get the frame perfect/max distance ledgedash you can squeeze a mostly invincible uptilt in

If you read the first link I posted, Falco's optimal ledgedash has 14 frames of actionable invincibility.

 

[xman]

Hey speaking of ledgedashing. I dont know whether its my nerves but everytime I try ledgedashing onto the stage when the opposing character is by the ledge I seem to sd but when ever the ledge is free I seem to get the crispiest of ledgedashes. Is it because I have to ledgedash at a less steeper angle or is it just my nerves get the best out of me

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I will say that if she's floating you need to FH and/or take to the platforms so you can shoot her as you fall back down. The ideal position for Falco is close to Peach(anyone really) on the ground after hitting them with a laser.

I think I need to do a bit more work on Peach so I don't want to give too much misinformation..

I'm playing against somebody who mains peach as a training partner and I find that immediate FH option interesting thanks! I'll look into it. In contrast my approach is if its low percent usually what I try to do when she floats is to try to get her to mess up whatever she was intending on doing with the float or bait whatever option she wanted to use it for and just jump into her for a low % combo attempt and try to chase her in a punish game from there. Is that too risky?

I'd say don't worry about the mis information if thats causing an inhibition to share with us unless its at the absolute beginning stages or something. The game is evolving all the time and anybody getting better makes mistakes.I think most if not almost all things you feel comfortable with sharing will help us and if it turns out it doesn't work we'll find that out on our own quickly through testing outside of tournament so it won't take away from a tournament match. Plus even if it doesn't work it may still be on to something anyway and through our own failures in trying to use advice that doesn't help that gets us better anyway if we use it as a stepping stone to improvement.

Just imo of course

Jackson i'm currently developing a means to work on learning effortless combo consistency. If this idea completely pulls through i'll share it with you and everybody else here.

 

[Jackson]

@ Twilight Emblem thanks, i'll talk to him about that.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

NP jackson.
I saw a video talking about using something called a delayed dair. Any advantages to delaying the dair till right before you hit the ground? I'm a little worried about hanging in the air without a move out in trying it.

Also Dr peepee do you have any advice for building up to being able to do consistent multishines on command? I'm considering putting all my training aside to focus on really learning that technique because the idea of being able to use it consciously whenever I want to eat shields sounds really appealing.

This following sentence isn't for how i'd like to use it but in terms of stamina and consistency I'd like to work up to a point where I can multishine across a stage with it without messing up or losing too much stamina.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You only really need two shines, and just learn to do it slowly and gradually build speed like with other techniques.

 

[Jackson]

You only really need two shines, and just learn to do it slowly and gradually build speed like with other techniques.

That's a relief to hear. I can only really do two, and I'm getting better at it.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Any reason as to why only two?I thought if I managed to start one on somebodies shield and keep the multishine on point I could shield break with it unless they were like frame perfect in escaping. Getting the multishine down as a skill in my mind would permit me to break a shield at any time in a tournament game if I could get in range to start firing it off on a shield

Oh well at least its good to know I was on the wrong track with that idea. Thanks for saving me some time in training PP

 

[Dr Peepee]

Shield DI moves them away from multiple shine hits. One shine action can be beaten by shine OOS or buffered roll/spotdodge usually. If you double shine you'll beat all of those options.

Besides, shine grab/double shine is easier to do than multishine, making him more consistent in tournaments. Always a good thing.

 

[Oskurito]

Any reason as to why only two?I thought if I managed to start one on somebodies shield and keep the multishine on point I could shield break with it unless they were like frame perfect in escaping. Getting the multishine down as a skill in my mind would permit me to break a shield at any time in a tournament game if I could get in range to start firing it off on a shield

Oh well at least its good to know I was on the wrong track with that idea. Thanks for saving me some time in training PP

Shield breaks almost never happen, your opponent basically has to be a fool and hold on his shield for too long.

Most people will just buffer roll, this means that it doesn't matter if you can do a million shines because they'll roll after the first one hits. However, if you're quick enough you'll hit them anyways and if you don't then you can do like westballz and wavedash in place and then try to react and punish your opponent's roll or w.e they try to do.

If you're curious about pressuring techniques and out of shield options, I suggest you try training with the 20XX hack pack, you can practice against a cpu that does perfect shine out of shield.

This way I found that nair beats shine oos if your spacing and timing is perfect.

That being said, I haven't seen anyone follow rolls with waveshines + double shines to keep the pressure, but it probably would shield poke them if it doesn't hit them just when they try to roll.

If you love shield pressure, then learn the westballz pressure, which is double shine + wavedash in place then repeat.

 

[miketyson]

Why does my Falco turn around like 1/4 of the time when I laser out of a dash? I believe it is due to the tighter stick on my controller, but I sorta figured it would be worn in by now(I've had it for over a month now). Also sometimes when I try to laser grab I end up jabbing, so what should you do if you jab someones shield? At pound 5 I remember seeing PP do a lot of laser jab shine on shield, was that on purpose or did you accidentally get the jab and then make the best of it? Also what about jab crouch grab on shield?

 

[Bones0]

Why does my Falco turn around like 1/4 of the time when I laser out of a dash? I believe it is due to the tighter stick on my controller, but I sorta figured it would be worn in by now(I've had it for over a month now). Also sometimes when I try to laser grab I end up jabbing, so what should you do if you jab someones shield? At pound 5 I remember seeing PP do a lot of laser jab shine on shield, was that on purpose or did you accidentally get the jab and then make the best of it? Also what about jab crouch grab on shield?

Some new controllers do this. Idk why or if it ever goes away, but I think it does. Maybe try rolling the stick around in both directions with your palm or something to really get it worn in (but don't blame me if your stick goes lose from that lol).

If you press Z during your crouch or uncrouch animation, you will jab instead of grab (pretty sure those are the two animations anyway). Make sure you aren't holding down after you input the FF.

PP does laser jab a lot to catch people's OoS options. Moving OoS after lasers hit your shield is extremely common, especially because he demonstrates a willingness to laser-grab people who simply hold shield. I don't think Falco's jab is particularly good for leading into grab if they shield it unlike other characters. The risk of jabbing their shield in the first place is already pretty high.

 

[victinivcreate1]

How to practice neutral game particularly vs Marth and in Falco dittos?

Imo Falco's neutral feels really weird cuz Mango doesn't use that many lasers, just spams like SHFFL dairs and somehow people just get hit, and PP loves to shoot and like pin down people. I know lasers are like super good but how come Mango's Falco does well even though he doesn't shoot so much? And what is going through PP's mind when he shoots a laser?

I usually try the Mango approach and it works for a bit, but after a while I'm just getting punished OoS. What should I be mixing up? How should I be spacing my shffl dairs? And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to look for when lasering. Mix ups? Tricks? Baits? What to do?

 

[Alexander Duprey]

How to practice neutral game particularly vs Marth and in Falco dittos?

Imo Falco's neutral feels really weird cuz Mango doesn't use that many lasers, just spams like SHFFL dairs and somehow people just get hit, and PP loves to shoot and like pin down people. I know lasers are like super good but how come Mango's Falco does well even though he doesn't shoot so much? And what is going through PP's mind when he shoots a laser?

I usually try the Mango approach and it works for a bit, but after a while I'm just getting punished OoS. What should I be mixing up? How should I be spacing my shffl dairs? And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to look for when lasering. Mix ups? Tricks? Baits? What to do?

I remember someone saying that when playing against marth they try to keep a set distance in the neutral that was right outside of marths Dash attack range. It's somewhere along the line of the middle of the pokeball on PS and the red lines

 

[Jackson]

@ Dr Peepee : I need to work on my grab game- you know, laser grab, shine grab and stuff. I think this will really help me but I have trouble profiting off throws. I know you get a lot of mileage off them, so do you have any tips on how I can abuse them?
Thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

If they're close to the edge, throw them off.

If they're more in the middle of the stage and low to mid percent, then Uthrow is pretty great even if you can't get an immediate followup.

Sometimes you can do Bthrow and Fthrow mixups in the middle of the stage at higher percents.


Your question is too broad to give more answers for. You should consider stage position, actions before the throw, each individual character, stage layout, whether lasers hit or not, last throw(s) used for starting ideas about why this stuff works.

 

[Jackson]

If they're close to the edge, throw them off.

If they're more in the middle of the stage and low to mid percent, then Uthrow is pretty great even if you can't get an immediate followup.

Sometimes you can do Bthrow and Fthrow mixups in the middle of the stage at higher percents.


Your question is too broad to give more answers for. You should consider stage position, actions before the throw, each individual character, stage layout, whether lasers hit or not, last throw(s) used for starting ideas about why this stuff works.

Thanks, that was some good stuff. Sounds like you're really thinking about all this stuff as you play.

 

[trilok]

Any reason as to why only two?I thought if I managed to start one on somebodies shield and keep the multishine on point I could shield break with it unless they were like frame perfect in escaping. Getting the multishine down as a skill in my mind would permit me to break a shield at any time in a tournament game if I could get in range to start firing it off on a shield

Oh well at least its good to know I was on the wrong track with that idea. Thanks for saving me some time in training PP

the two shines in a doubleshine are faster than any shine afterwards.
For example on air. (not on shield or opponent)
first two shines come at frames 1 and 9, but any shine after that takes 11 frames, not 8. shine grab and mixed up nair shines are usually better. You will not be guaranteed to break a shield with multishines, because rolling, them getting hit, and them doing their own oos option is more likely.

Why does my Falco turn around like 1/4 of the time when I laser out of a dash? I believe it is due to the tighter stick on my controller, but I sorta figured it would be worn in by now(I've had it for over a month now).

When hitting a direction to say reverse laser. you hit jump then left then laser and then down. however, with newer controllers the analog can jerk back hitting the opposite direction so you get a right input somewhere there, turning you around

Thanks, that was some good stuff. Sounds like you're really thinking about all this stuff as you play.

Additionally to what pp says, if you prime your opponent with a lot of throws, say u-throw a lot. sometimes just mixing it up with a dthrow dsmash or techchase can be a good idea.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Thanks for the patient helpful responses guys. This thread is 10/10.

 

[victinivcreate1]

My question never really got answered but I'll ask again lol

How to practice neutral game vs Marth and Falco?

I don't really use that many lasers, but I feel that you can still win the neutral even without using lasers.

Basically, how would neutral work with lasers and without lasers. I don't want lasers to become a huge crux of my game, I just want it to be a tool that I have.

 

[The Soap]

Took a stock off M2K in a friendly at KTAR

#confirmedbusterino

 

[Jackson]

Against Marth should I always make him approach me by using lasers? Also, what do you guys like to do if he comes down on you with Fairs and stuff?

 

[Binx]

In neutral vs Marth you want to take center stage and punish his approaching fairs. Other than that I find myself nairing more often that dairing because I hate getting dash dance grabbed since its so costly but this does sometimes open you up to crouch cancels. Watch Mango vs m2k he has the neutral game down pretty well. Lasering at certain distances is dangerous because of power shield but in general they are very strong in the mu since marth has some bad start up on many of his moves comparably.

Practicing the neutral game is very difficult without actually playing. You basically just want to get good at dashing in and out of ranges that Marth can hit you to bait actions you can punish or you need to get in in a time frame that the player cant react to. This match up is a lot more about the punish game for both characters. I feel like there are a lot of situations where you can hit eachother with things that are difficult or impossible to follow up on.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Just thought i'd share a little bit of what i'm doing. Has anybody else taken the time to write out everything they're currently doing to train?
Like i've got a wordpad document showing what i've decided to train for in the game, and what i've decided to do to train the thing i'm training for. I go through the individual tech skills for falco etc. When I have everything i'm doing all in front of me it gives me something visual to work with.
To make sure the training list is comprehensive enough i've basically included everything productive and specific about falco thats been posted about him on smashboards. Everything in this thread, umbreons drastic improvement guide,videos on the top players thoughts on the game etc.

When I see everything just written out and organized in front of me I start to notice things that I haven't written down yet that could make the training routine better. It sparks ideas. It lets me evaluate if my training goals are being met with appropriate action that triggers the success of the thing i'm training for.

[I want to learn how to do A with falco]
[This is what i'm currently doing to learn A with falco]
[Is this good enough to teach me how to do A]
[Yes, keep doing it]
[No, time to upgrade the approach]

 

[Jackson]

Just thought i'd share a little bit of what i'm doing. Has anybody else taken the time to write out everything they're currently doing to train?
Like i've got a wordpad document showing what i've decided to train for in the game, and what i've decided to do to train the thing i'm training for. I go through the individual tech skills for falco etc. When I have everything i'm doing all in front of me it gives me something visual to work with.
To make sure the training list is comprehensive enough i've basically included everything productive and specific about falco thats been posted about him on smashboards. Everything in this thread, umbreons drastic improvement guide,videos on the top players thoughts on the game etc.

When I see everything just written out and organized in front of me I start to notice things that I haven't written down yet that could make the training routine better. It sparks ideas. It lets me evaluate if my training goals are being met with appropriate action that triggers the success of the thing i'm training for.

[I want to learn how to do A with falco]
[This is what i'm currently doing to learn A with falco]
[Is this good enough to teach me how to do A]
[Yes, keep doing it]
[No, time to upgrade the approach]

I like your idea. I have a notebook but I'd rather type it out tbh.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I like your idea. I have a notebook but I'd rather type it out tbh.

Oh that was a little misleading on my part. I actually do type instead of write.
Although I have heard that writing by hand sparks ideas better but i'm not sure how much truth there is to that

 

[Jackson]

Oh that was a little misleading on my part. I actually do type instead of write.
Although I have heard that writing by hand sparks ideas better but i'm not sure how much truth there is to that

Same. Honestly, it's just convenient for me to type it and have it along it along with all my other computer stuff.

Something I've been thinking about is asking for my play partner/friend (he's a Marth main and our matches are completely back and forth) to tell me what flaws he sees in my gameplay. It would be better to hear it from someone else who observes it.

 

[Voltampt]

This is my first time posting so excuse my rudeness.

So I've been noticing I don't convert from my Uthrows at all, and it just sets me up to laser them more or to hit them with my Bair. I've tried going to practice mode and throwing at 1/4 speed and even c-sticking the throw, but I can't seem to get an understanding on how I can use my Uthrow in my repertoire effectively.

If someone can help link me a thread or some information on this topic, that would be greatly appreciated!

 

[JDavisR (NIX)]

Hey, I was in losers finals at a tourney a while back, and I was up against a shiek. I realized, looking back, that I got caught up in a lot of forward tilts as I was approaching which of course, leads into shiek combos being falco, or anyone for that matter, and of course racked up damage and what not. It happened a lot more than it probably should, and its mainly the reason I lost there. I was wondering what to do about this, and maybe if there is a way to help practice against that, how to (yes I have the 20xx pack so if there's a way on that I can do it). I probably just need to work on spacing, or add in some more dash dancing or something to bait it out, but I felt like I should ask anyways since there could always be a much more complex answer. Thanks in advance

 

[Sylmar]

Can anyone explain to me when Shine OOS is a better option than dair OOS? From what I can see, the only advantage of Shine is speed. Am I correct in this?

Dair seems to have a better hitbox, so it feels like it has better horizontal range OOS than Shine. I feel like it also has better followups than Shine, and is also a lot easier to perform. Is shine OOS something thats only really necessary in spacie matchups, used for beating out alot of their quick OOS options? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Oskurito]

Hey, I was in losers finals at a tourney a while back, and I was up against a shiek. I realized, looking back, that I got caught up in a lot of forward tilts as I was approaching which of course, leads into shiek combos being falco, or anyone for that matter, and of course racked up damage and what not. It happened a lot more than it probably should, and its mainly the reason I lost there. I was wondering what to do about this, and maybe if there is a way to help practice against that, how to (yes I have the 20xx pack so if there's a way on that I can do it). I probably just need to work on spacing, or add in some more dash dancing or something to bait it out, but I felt like I should ask anyways since there could always be a much more complex answer. Thanks in advance

The solution is simple, just DI away from sheik's foward tilt (you'll need some reaction time), however it doesn't end there, you have to take some thigns into account. If you're on the middle of stage you could tap and hold away immediately but this may lead to sheik just running grab or dash attack. If you're close to the edges of the stage you can get off stage, and that's usually a very bad position vs sheik unless you're extremely confident on your recovery abilities and or the sheik edguarding skills are bad.

Basically DIng away when you're close to the center of the stage can be considered somewhat safe, but when you're close to either side of the stage is dangerous. If you DI towards center of the stage you'll just get forward tilted over and over again and maybe end up in some nasty follow ups with dair, soft bair, uair, fair, or just get tossed off stage with a grab.

And yes you can test various ways to DI, counter it, and whatnot with the 20XX pack. If you press L+R+Dpad Up and then tilt forward + A very very slightly (is hard to get P2 to repeat tilts) and hold it right there (you should walk very slowly) then Player 2 should spam forward tilt. Remember that you can select sheik for the CPU by first hovering on sheik with your own cursor and pressing Z and then grabbing the cpu cursor and putting it on sheik/zeldas portrait. You can toggle sheik or zelda by pressing Z while hovering on their portrait box. Also you can freeze sheiks forward tilt with L+R+Dpad Right.

 

[Alexander Duprey]

Can anyone explain to me when Shine OOS is a better option than dair OOS? From what I can see, the only advantage of Shine is speed. Am I correct in this?

Dair seems to have a better hitbox, so it feels like it has better horizontal range OOS than Shine. I feel like it also has better followups than Shine, and is also a lot easier to perform. Is shine OOS something thats only really necessary in spacie matchups, used for beating out alot of their quick OOS options? Any help would be appreciated.

Welll shine is just faster and sets up for combos OOS which is pretty cray, Shine hits on frame 1 it's the fastest move in the game, use it.