PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Mogwai]

Bones will correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc, unstaled nair generates 1 more frame of shield stun than dair, so nair is slightly more forgiving in terms of how low on the shield you need to be to get the shine out pre-grab, but generally speaking when you're attacking a shield you want your opening aerial to come out as low as possible, especially since many relevant characters will have faster options than grab out of shield.

 

[SpiderMad]

What relevant ones? Has anyone made a good list? What frames are Marth's/Peach's/Samus' Up-b and Fox's Up-smash and Peach/Sheik's Nair OOS?

Does hitting shield stale a move.

If my Nair/Dairs are completely 10/10 que staled is it still possible to do them and shine before the frame perfect Marth grab?

 

[Bones0]

Bones will correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc, unstaled nair generates 1 more frame of shield stun than dair, so nair is slightly more forgiving in terms of how low on the shield you need to be to get the shine out pre-grab, but generally speaking when you're attacking a shield you want your opening aerial to come out as low as possible, especially since many relevant characters will have faster options than grab out of shield.

Nair and dair both deal 12% (7 frames of shield stun), but dair has 9 frames of L-cancelled landing lag while nair only has 7.

I use 3 general aerial heights when pressuring:
1. Aerial hits at about the peak of my SH, FF after hit. This isn't safe vs. Fox's shine OoS, Sheik's nair OoS, certain up-Bs OoS, and other quick options. Grabs might actually be possible some of the time, but generally I find people do not go for grabs either way because of the risk, and doing the aerial a little earlier than guaranteed or just within guaranteed safety discourages them from trying to move OoS or forces them to shield initially instead of dashing away.

2. Aerial hits late enough that the opponent is in shield stun the entire time between the aerial hit and shine. It can be done either with or without a FF. You must start the aerial before the peak of your SH if you plan on FFing, or else the hitbox won't come out in time. I generally use this without FFing when I know they are scared (high %s), and I milk the time for as much shield damage as possible before the super late aerial. With the damage from them holding shield while you're SHing + the aerial shield damage + shine shield damage + shield damage from an early aerial after the shine, you can wreck shields and often just get outright pokes. I do super late bair-shine-bairs and get pokes on people all the time at high %s. Also a great pressure option when you think they will hold shield and are fine with just shine grabbing.

3. The most "medium" pressure option (and imo the most difficult to grasp/execute) is done by starting the aerial before the peak of your jump, FFing before the aerial connects (keeping in mind you can't FF until you've reached the peak of your SH), and having the hitbox connect after you've started FFing. This beats grabs and even the faster OoS options, but leaves enough time for them to get caught by your shine if they attempt to do something (unlike #2 where they are locked in shield). FFing has a 3-frame buffer which can help, but you cannot FF during hitlag so getting the FF before the aerial connects is a great way to ensure consistency in your pressure. If you've ever gone from playing mediocre/bad players or good players whose chars don't have great OoS options to playing a good Fox, you may have experienced the "OMG, I'm getting shined OoS constantly" effect. It generally doesn't mean your pressure has gotten worse, but rather you were using #1 pressure vs. #3.

Kadano info on nair-shine pressure with amazing GIF that you should watch frame by frame until the image is burned into your mind.

http://gfycat.com/WarlikeWindingBichonfrise

Sources if you'd like to do calculations of your own:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/kwbkgsdok1dekd7/SSBM_Hitboxes_(NTSC_1.0)_&_Knockback_1.5k.xlsx
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-hitboxes-and-frame-data.300397/

 

[Tityboi]

What, where's a video of that?

If I could capture decent footage on dolphin I would get a video of it, but unfortunately I have a mac so my computer is not powerful enough.

 

[Kadano]

If I could capture decent footage on dolphin I would get a video of it, but unfortunately I have a mac so my computer is not powerful enough.

Just use develop mode and capture every frame as a screenshot. Encode the .png files with x264 and tada, there’s your video. (That’s how I do it, at least. Even if your computer runs Dolphin at 5 frames per second, it would work with this method.)

 

[SpiderMad]

Do you guys ever wonder if blending in with the background with your costume choice is a worthwhile strategy? On small bad CRTs, I imagine Black Falco on BF and cyan Falco on DL to be a little hard to see; and might cue your opponent less on certain animations.

I've never decided a Falco color for myself either, red seems the most pleasing but if I had to guess I'd say the majority of Falcos right now are choosing red?

I also saw a stream of PewPewU going over shield stopping (dash to shield to stop momentum) to do more spaced aerials, I think I've seen Wes do some but I haven't felt like I've needed it yet.

I also find it funny how Wes gets away with this movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oklJIy4r2HE#t=568
and also during MLG when he almost got that WD off DJ laser on Mango, that itself can inspire someone to pick up Falco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eCO-ABIl44#t=483

 

[Bones0]

Do you guys ever wonder if blending in with the background with your costume choice is a worthwhile strategy? On small bad CRTs, I imagine Black Falco on BF and cyan Falco on DL to be a little hard to see; and might cue your opponent less on certain animations.

I've never decided a Falco color for myself either, red seems the most pleasing but if I had to guess I'd say the majority of Falcos right now are choosing red?

I also saw a stream of PewPewU going over shield stopping (dash to shield to stop momentum) to do more spaced aerials, I think I've seen Wes do some but I haven't felt like I've needed it yet.

I also find it funny how Wes gets away with this movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oklJIy4r2HE#t=568
and also during MLG when he almost got that WD off DJ laser on Mango, that itself can inspire someone to pick up Falco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eCO-ABIl44#t=483

Zhu does a lot of good shield stop aerials. I've started incorporating them myself and once you get used to it, they really help.

 

[Bones0]

Frame leniency for horizontal WLs onto top plats from a rising backwards FH:
BF - Impossible
DL - 1
YS - 1
FoD - 2

Because I know you all care so much about this information.

 

[JCBeef]

Hey Bones0 shoutouts to you for spreading that sweet sweet info and helping people get better



Does anyone have any tips for getting a better punish game?
It's not realistic to get a 0-death every stock but like once they get out of a combo I should at least still be trying to limit their options and open them up for another combo / pressure situation. Pretty much I just let my opponents go too easily.
Does anyone have any tips for limiting opponents options / covering options / extending combos?
Watching videos has helped me some to see creative opportunities to extend combos but I still have trouble seeing when and how to cover options.

 

[Jackson]

So, I'm working on making my Falco more technical. I've been drilling Waveshining on FD using 1P glitch and mixing in SHFFL'd aerials and dash dances and stuff. I'll do it on CPUS later to adjust for the hitstun that Mogwai mentioned. Anyway, I've started working on multishining. It seems that almost everyone does it using Y, but I've been practicing with X. The reason is since i do all jumping with X, I feel like using Y would be difficult and using X would create a easier (still very hard) transition into things like wavedash out of shine from double shine. Using X to multishine seems hard but i think i can do it with enough practice.

Anyone here got multishining down with X?

 

[Xyzz]

Frame leniency for horizontal WLs onto top plats from a rising backwards FH:
BF - Impossible
DL - 1
YS - 1
FoD - 2

Because I know you all care so much about this information.

Hey, that's the most interesting thing I've read in this thread since ages :D

 

[xman]

So, I'm working on making my Falco more technical. I've been drilling Waveshining on FD using 1P glitch and mixing in SHFFL'd aerials and dash dances and stuff. I'll do it on CPUS later to adjust for the hitstun that Mogwai mentioned. Anyway, I've started working on multishining. It seems that almost everyone does it using Y, but I've been practicing with X. The reason is since i do all jumping with X, I feel like using Y would be difficult and using X would create a easier (still very hard) transition into things like wavedash out of shine from double shine. Using X to multishine seems hard but i think i can do it with enough practice.

Anyone here got multishining down with X?

I multishine with x almost without fail just keep practicing I feel like the distance between x and b keeps the timing perfect

 

[SpiderMad]

I multishine with x almost without fail just keep practicing I feel like the distance between x and b keeps the timing perfect

Record a video of your hands

 

[xman]

Record a video of your hands

i dont have fancy equipment to record but here it is off of my phone camera
this is the video of my hand movement double shining

and this is the video of my shine to double shine attempts

 

[Jackson]

You know, after some practice with X, I seem to have got it. I have to do this weird slide from X to B (similar to xman) but it's working.

 

[SpiderMad]

are you able to do Double Shine SHFFL Aerial repeats?

 

[xman]

are you able to do Double Shine SHFFL Aerial repeats?

I never tried that out I usually just shine to double Shine and repeat cause once you double Shine the shielding opponent moves back but I'm pretty sure if I practice that I would be able to do it. I usually do an aerial and fast fall behind the opponent -> shine to double shine for shield pressure

 

[Jackson]

How important is wavedash into shine and wavedash out of shine for Falco? When should I be using them?

 

[xman]

How important is wavedash into shine and wavedash out of shine for Falco? When should I be using them?

Wavedashing out of shine is very crucial for a falco main. Imo you should wavedash after every shine and it allows movement after a shine faster than any other movement aside from jumping out of it. Its basically the glue to falco's shine combos. As for wavedashing into shines its more used to apply shield pressure with shine. Common uses for this are get up roll reads or to setup a multishine

 

[Jackson]

Wavedashing out of shine is very crucial for a falco main. Imo you should wavedash after every shine and it allows movement after a shine faster than any other movement aside from jumping out of it. Its basically the glue to falco's shine combos. As for wavedashing into shines its more used to apply shield pressure with shine. Common uses for this are get up rolls reads or to setup a multishine

Awesome. So should i primarily combo into shines with shffl'd aerials instead of trying to fish for them by wavedashing into my opponent?

 

[xman]

Awesome. So should i primarily combo into shines with shffl'd aerials instead of trying to fish for them by wavedashing into my opponent?

Yes Aerials have wider hit boxes so its harder for the opponent to avoid. you just have to make sure you time them correctly depending on what the opponent is fishing for. If he likes to shield grab a lot or uses mainly OoS options you would like to delay your aerials the closer to the floor the safer so you take advantage of his shield stun. Or learn how to fast fall late so you land exactly behind your opponent

 

[Jackson]

Yes Aerials have wider hit boxes so its harder for the opponent to avoid. you just have to make sure you time them correctly depending on what the opponent is fishing for. If he likes to shield grab a lot or uses mainly OoS options you would like to delay your aerials the closer to the floor the safer so you take advantage of his shield stun. Or learn how to fast fall late so you land exactly behind your opponent

Cool, thank you.

 

[Mogwai]

Wavedashing into shine is also a pretty important OoS option IMO to track laggy moves spaced on your shield (such as dash attacks and fsmashes). I suppose in optimal play, this doesn't come up often, but it's still pretty important to be able to punish that ****.

 

[Jackson]

Wavedashing into shine is also a pretty important OoS option IMO to track laggy moves spaced on your shield (such as dash attacks and fsmashes). I suppose in optimal play, this doesn't come up often, but it's still pretty important to be able to punish that ****.

Makes sense. Unfortunately I haven't learned to wavedash Oos yet. It's gonna be tough because I wavedash and also shield with R, but if it would really help my game I should learn it. Right now I just want to be consistent with wave dashing and wave shining. (I'm new to Melee)

 

[Bones0]

Makes sense. Unfortunately I haven't learned to wavedash Oos yet. It's gonna be tough because I wavedash and also shield with R, but if it would really help my game I should learn it. Right now I just want to be consistent with wave dashing and wave shining. (I'm new to Melee)

I do it with one trigger, it just takes some good practice sessions. Falco has a 5-frame jumpsquat so that's plenty of time to release and repress a trigger. WDing back OoS is really useful in general as well.

 

[TheChocolateLava]

Makes sense. Unfortunately I haven't learned to wavedash Oos yet. It's gonna be tough because I wavedash and also shield with R, but if it would really help my game I should learn it. Right now I just want to be consistent with wave dashing and wave shining. (I'm new to Melee)

If you're transitioning from PM like me, a useful difference to know is that you can WD OoS with only one trigger in melee, unlike PM.

 

[Jackson]

If you're transitioning from PM like me, a useful difference to know is that you can WD OoS with only one trigger in melee, unlike PM.

Yep , I'm from PM. And that's great. Thanks to you and Bones0, I'll be working on this.

 

[pkblaze]

http://youtu.be/VI7fhvmaX9Y

This is me vs a very new marth player. I would prefer to get a match vs somebody closer to my skill level, but this is the first match I've gotten recorded in like 2 months and the first one in forever where I'm not just like "I played like ****."

That being said, I do a lot of things that would get me killed vs a competent player(3 smashes in a row), or one more prepared to adapt to my gimmicks (I have never had an easier time camping top platform than this set, for instance)

 

[Russ The Love Muss]

http://youtu.be/VI7fhvmaX9Y

This is me vs a very new marth player. I would prefer to get a match vs somebody closer to my skill level, but this is the first match I've gotten recorded in like 2 months and the first one in forever where I'm not just like "I played like ****."

That being said, I do a lot of things that would get me killed vs a competent player(3 smashes in a row), or one more prepared to adapt to my gimmicks (I have never had an easier time camping top platform than this set, for instance)

I've only been playing for about 2 months but I can notice a lot of things that you could be doing better. Obviously you need to work on your tech skill, missed a lot l-cancels and not having that skill really limits you from being able to make the right decisions.

When you are recovering you did the exact same thing every time; side b onto stage. You need to mix it up a little, sweet spot the ledge, use your up b. Luckily the Marth player you played wasn't very good because those recoveries are such easy punishes as a Marth.

You also generally don't want to be sitting above a Marth, or wasting your double jump. A competent Marth would very easily be able to juggle you in the air, especially if they catch you with no second jump. The bottom of the stage is where you want to be most of the time in neutral.

Adding onto that, you need to use your lasers a lot more. You waste a lot of time approaching and not actually doing anything, when you could be SHL towards them. You can also use your lasers to force your opponents onto the stage and into a corner, which limits their options.

Using D-Air also doesn't become that great the higher the percent of your opponent, so try using some N-Airs to approach.

To be honest there is just so much to pick apart from your games that you should probably be able to notice the majority of these mistakes on your own. Once you start having trouble with finding what you are doing wrong you can come back here and ask again, and you'll probably get much more out of the advice then because this is some basic stuff.

If I made any glaring errors could someone please call me out because I'm still a new player too and I'm currently just using self-analysis to improve so I might be wrong about some things.

 

[Jackson]

So, I've been working on waveshining... and encountering a problem. It's really annoying when I'm trying to wavedash the opposite way and i get stuck in shine because it made me turn around which screws the timing. Is there an easy fix for this?

 

[pkblaze]

hit jump before you press a direction. X->left->R.

 

[Acorn]

Waveshining backwards is funny because it feels like you have to slow down a little bit. Make sure you don't move the directional stick until after you start your jump.

 

[Jackson]

Waveshining backwards is funny because it feels like you have to slow down a little bit. Make sure you don't move the directional stick until after you start your jump.

I've heard that. I usually wavedash with the directional stick southeast or west before i jump so this will be a big adjustment. I'll work on it though, thanks.

 

[SpiderMad]

Why the hell did Stric9 delete his account? We were lucky enough to salvage this masterpiece in 240 quality; every year I can only ponder why he (and Ken) did it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQwhFwVMGOU

 

[Mogwai]

Makes sense. Unfortunately I haven't learned to wavedash Oos yet. It's gonna be tough because I wavedash and also shield with R, but if it would really help my game I should learn it. Right now I just want to be consistent with wave dashing and wave shining. (I'm new to Melee)

For whatever it's worth, I also use the same button for shield and wavedashing (L for me, but w/e).

I tried learning to Wavedash OoS with shield on R, but it ended up being way less work for me to just learn it with L, as my brain was not really ok with retraining shielding with R since so many state transitions into shield just involved holding the same button I used to wavedash or L-cancel in the first place.

EDIT: also, what is this talk of not being able to WD OoS with 1 trigger in PM? I only play it here and there, but I have a hard time imagining that I didn't notice this if that's really the case...

 

[Jackson]

For whatever it's worth, I also use the same button for shield and wavedashing (L for me, but w/e).

I tried learning to Wavedash OoS with shield on R, but it ended up being way less work for me to just learn it with L, as my brain was not really ok with retraining shielding with R since so many state transitions into shield just involved holding the same button I used to wavedash or L-cancel in the first place.

EDIT: also, what is this talk of not being able to WD OoS with 1 trigger in PM? I only play it here and there, but I have a hard time imagining that I didn't notice this if that's really the case...

Are you left handed? I was thinking maybe lefties favor L for that stuff and right handers favor R.

 

[tauKhan]

also, what is this talk of not being able to WD OoS with 1 trigger in PM? I only play it here and there, but I have a hard time imagining that I didn't notice this if that's really the case...

It's the other way round. In pm you can't air dodge with one shield button while holding another shield button, since you assign both buttons with the same action. This makes some players that use two triggers unable to wd OoS like they do in melee. Those who use single button can do it no problem.

 

[SpiderMad]

There was a google survey somewhere that showed results of people's preference between L and R

 

[Jackson]

There was a google survey somewhere that showed results of people's preference between L and R

Sounds interesting. Got a link?

 

[SpiderMad]

Nope, think it was on the Smash reddit a year ago

Oh, thanks google http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2cwi1g/gamecube_controller_button_preferences_survey/
so much for a year ago then? lol hmm I swear it wasn't just 1 month ago..