PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[whitemountain123]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmC0Fq11LwY

So some protips? My falco dittos in general are pretty crappy. First match was terrible but you can give advice for that as well although if you only choose to give advice for one match I'd prefer it to be match #3. I seem to always have a lot of trouble with the neutralgame, any pointers to help with that?

Not to be an asshole, but you're the 4th person on this page to ask for advice on the falco ditto. Start by reading some of the above posts
[/quote]

edit: insta karma got me, "4th person on the page on which you asked"

 

[SpiderMad]

Do most Falcos like the ditto?

Haha whew I dunno about that man that's some hardcore stuff I'd have to write there. I'll see how some of my other things I write first go then I'll see how I'm feeling about that topic later. It would be a cool exercise so I'm definitely not writing it off haha.

Did you ever get to writing on this? Or about his recovery? Or why he does the Uair all the time while recovering?

How many of your large posts on analysis are linked in the first post? Are there large ones scattered in here you've made that haven't been linked for reference, or is that mostly all of them?

 

[L33thal]

Does anyone know what's a good way to deal with up-throw chaingrabs in general? Like how should you DI? When can you shine out of them? Etc.

 

[Kadano]

Does anyone know what's a good way to deal with up-throw chaingrabs in general? Like how should you DI? When can you shine out of them? Etc.

Here’s what I think based on playing against Falco:

DI behind on low percent (0-5).
Don’t DI and try to shine or jump out as soon as possible during 15-25%.
At 30-70%, DI towards the middle of the stage so you don’t get offstage that easily if your opponent opts for a finisher.
At 80% and up, mix up DI away, behind and no DI.

 

[Bones0]

Kadano gave some good guidelines, but it depends on a lot of factors like their character, the stage, and what they've done in the past. Sometimes you are best DIing off stage as quickly as possible just to end the CG before you get to ridiculous %s and are actually able to recover. Other times you're best DIing to stay as close to the center as possible and trying to survival DI when they can no longer CG. Practice shining out of CGs when they are pseudo comboing, learn what %s the CGs last for, and learn what you can react to. An example of the last one that I find helpful is you can always DI up for Peach's fthrow and react with horizontal DI if she uthrows. It takes a lot more focus, but it's a brutal throw mixup that forces the Peach to do the full CG every time or else give you an opportunity to recover.

Here’s what I think based on playing against Falco:

DI behind on low percent (0-5).
Don’t DI and try to shine or jump out as soon as possible during 15-25%.
At 30-70%, DI towards the middle of the stage so you don’t get offstage that easily if your opponent opts for a finisher.
At 80% and up, mix up DI away, behind and no DI.

Could you shed some light on what Falcon can do off uthrow vs. Falco? Sometimes it seems like he gets guaranteed regrab, fsmash, or knee at higher %s, but idk if there's any DI that prevents it, or at least makes it excessively harder. I guess I'm just baffled because I don't feel like I see it a lot, but I'm sure if Falcon had a CG on Falco people would use it (then again, Falcon mains are so suboptimal with this kind of stuff it's disgusting lol).

 

[Oskurito]

Sometimes you are best DIing off stage as quickly as possible just to end the CG before you get to ridiculous %s and are actually able to recover.

Off stage is the worst spot against a marth imo, it might work if you can jump asap and side b into the stage (hopefully ledge canceling on a platform) but if he predicts your recovery correctly you're probably dead, and you might be in tipper range for a fmash or dtilt, and if you choose to go low he can drop up+b or fair you a couple of times and then up+b.

Could you shed some light on what Falcon can do off uthrow vs. Falco? Sometimes it seems like he gets guaranteed regrab, fsmash, or knee at higher %s, but idk if there's any DI that prevents it, or at least makes it excessively harder. I guess I'm just baffled because I don't feel like I see it a lot, but I'm sure if Falcon had a CG on Falco people would use it (then again, Falcon mains are so suboptimal with this kind of stuff it's disgusting lol).

I think if you DI away most of the times he can't knee, he needs to either tech chase or regrab, that's what I'm thinking, I also think that at some percentages if you don't DI you can jump out (so you don't get regrabed but then again you might get predicted and punished), there might be a % were upthrow + knee/fmash is guaranteed. If you don't know something, and you don't have AR and stuff like kadano, the best thing you can do is try it with a friend, try various percentages and see if you can knee or fmash. According to c. falcon's frame data, fmash comes 1 frame faster:

Fsmash hits on: 18-21 (total:64)

Knee hits on:14-30 (total:39)
Jump: airborne on frame 5 (19 frames to get the knee assuming you're perfect, but probably no body is.)

"The people's elbow" seems more easier to get imo, and is one frame faster (like that matters xD, but who knows...).

The knee is so awesome though.

 

[Bones0]

Off stage is the worst spot against a marth imo, it might work if you can jump asap and side b into the stage (hopefully ledge canceling on a platform) but if he predicts your recovery correctly you're probably dead, and you might be in tipper range for a fmash or dtilt, and if you choose to go low he can drop up+b or fair you a couple of times and then up+b.



I think if you DI away most of the times he can't knee, he needs to either tech chase or regrab, that's what I'm thinking, I also think that at some percentages if you don't DI you can jump out (so you don't get regrabed but then again you might get predicted and punished), there might be a % were upthrow + knee/fmash is guaranteed. If you don't know something, and you don't have AR and stuff like kadano, the best thing you can do is try it with a friend, try various percentages and see if you can knee or fmash. According to c. falcon's frame data, fmash comes 1 frame faster:

Fsmash hits on: 18-21 (total:64)

Knee hits on:14-30 (total:39)
Jump: airborne on frame 5 (19 frames to get the knee assuming you're perfect, but probably no body is.)

"The people's elbow" seems more easier to get imo, and is one frame faster (like that matters xD, but who knows...).

The knee is so awesome though.

I agree. I almost never DI off stage vs. Marth, but he was asking about CGs in general, and if you don't DI off stage vs. someone like Doc or Pikachu, there's nothing stopping them from CGing you to KO % and getting a guaranteed followup for the KO.

 

[Oskurito]

I agree. I almost never DI off stage vs. Marth, but he was asking about CGs in general, and if you don't DI off stage vs. someone like Doc or Pikachu, there's nothing stopping them from CGing you to KO % and getting a guaranteed followup for the KO.

I see...

Pika cg is annoying, and if you DI his upthrow towards the edge he can nair or uair then drop and kill you and still be able to come back. Doc can do a similar thing with bair (may not be able to go as deep as pika can because his recovery is bad), plus he has the cape. I think you can jump/shine out with no DI at certain % for both characters but I will have to test, I have a fulltime job now and I don't have much time as I used to, but today I will probably do it later when I get home.

Something tells me kadano is busy for the moment

 

[tauKhan]

According to c. falcon's frame data, fmash comes 1 frame faster:

Fsmash hits on: 18-21 (total:64)

Knee hits on:14-30 (total:39)
Jump: airborne on frame 5 (19 frames to get the knee assuming you're perfect, but probably no body is.)

Sorry, but your math is off. You can start the knee on the first airborne frame, so from ground knee can hit on frame 18. (4 frames of jumpsquat and 13 frames of knee animation before hitbox comes out makes a total of 17 frames of startup.)

Also it's certainly possible to be consistent with first frame aerials. You can even notice when you succeed because the jump height is reduced when you do an aerial asap.

 

[Oskurito]

Sorry, but your math is off. You can start the knee on the first airborne frame, so from ground knee can hit on frame 18. (4 frames of jumpsquat and 13 frames of knee animation before hitbox comes out makes a total of 17 frames of startup.)

Also it's certainly possible to be consistent with first frame aerials. You can even notice when you succeed because the jump height is reduced when you do an aerial asap.[/quote

Thanks for clarifying, the knee is better then.

But I would have to go in some kind of slow motion using AR or a similar program to know how a move looks when done perfectly, which is something many people wont be willing to do. Testing in game with a friend is more practical in my opinion.

 

[tauKhan]

There's only one shortened jump height which happens with frame perfect aerial, so you can see it because your jump height is smaller than it would normally be.

 

[Sensei]

Love the compilation of resourceful posts! Will definitely come in handy when I want to take my Falco to the next level.

 

[SpiderMad]

I've been asking my friend to make a gif showing the difference, I thought there would be one out there by now

 

[Kadano]

Could you shed some light on what Falcon can do off uthrow vs. Falco? Sometimes it seems like he gets guaranteed regrab, fsmash, or knee at higher %s, but idk if there's any DI that prevents it, or at least makes it excessively harder. I guess I'm just baffled because I don't feel like I see it a lot, but I'm sure if Falcon had a CG on Falco people would use it (then again, Falcon mains are so suboptimal with this kind of stuff it's disgusting lol).

Captain Falcon’s uthrow followups on Falco
Percent ranges the chaingrab works on for different DIs:
All percents are given as before hit¹. Only useful options are included.
DI slightly behind (I used the 108° notch): 32%-123%
No DI: 40%-126%
DI straight behind: 40%-139%
DI straight forward: 130-135%

Percent range|No DI|DI straight forward|DI straight behind|DI slightly behind
0-31||||
32-39|||| r egrab (standing, no turn)
40-50| r || turn regrab | r
51-59| r , s hort h op u air|| tr | r , shu
60-69| r , shu || tr | r , shu
70-85| r , shu || turn dash JC regrab , shb | r , shu
86-115| r , shu , shf , fsmash || tdr , shb , fsmash | r , shu , shf , fsmash
116-123| r , shu , shf , fsmash | dash shu | tdr , shb , fsmash , turn shf | r , shu , shf , fsmash
124-126| r , shu , shf , fsmash | dash shu | tdr , shb , fsmash , turn shf | shu , shf , fsmash
127-129| shu , shf | dash shu | tdr , shb , fsmash , turn shf | shu , shf
130-135| shu , shf | dash shu , run JC regrab , dash shf | tdr , shb , turn shf | shu , shf
136-139| shu , shf | dash shu , dash shf | tdr , shb , turn shf | shu , shf
140-150| shu , shf | dash shu , dash shf | tdr , shb , turn shf | shu , shf

Most things should be exact. Some things like fsmash might work a few percents longer.

¹Melee uses percent after hit for KB calculation, but this only makes a difference with move staling, which moves the effective range by 1-3%, so I accept this minor inaccuracy for easier memorizing on the reader’s part. I’m sure I’ve pointed this out a few times already, but I haven’t posted here at the Falco boards often, so some readers here might be unaware.


@ T tauKhan @ Oskurito You can easily check for whether you do instant aerials by going to Onett. Go to the diagonal platform below your spawn point. Move towards it right edge until you enter the Ottotto animation (I think most people here call this animation “teeter”). Press down to drop straight through.
Now, do short hop aerials with the C-stick and make sure that you go neither left nor right. You can do bairs, fairs, uairs and dairs. Whenever you land on the diagonal platform, your short hop aerial was not instant. Whenever you stay below it, your short hop aerial was instant.
By the way, nairs don’t work because it increases your ECB’s downward extensions so you can never land on the platform.
You can do this with Marth as well with the same setup — I think it works with all of his aerials, or at least most of them. I haven’t checked other characters yet.

 

[Oskurito]

Did you test if falco can jump or shine with no DI? I think he can do it before he reaches 130% but I don't remember the exact % around 110+ I believe. I was testing today with my brother but I can't remember

This is nice to know as a falcon player (I play falcon too, yay!), but as a falco player I want to know when I can jump or shine out of the chaingrab. It looks like falco is ****ed past 40%

 

[Kadano]

Did you test if falco can jump or shine with no DI? I think he can do it before he reaches 130% but I don't remember the exact % around 110+ I believe. I was testing today with my brother but I can't remember

Of course, haha. Would be a waste to create this post if I didn’t test it.
All values are tested and Falco always mashed jump.

 

[Bones0]

Sweet info, thanks. I'm surprised how good DI away is. I always thought DI towards them, crossing them up, was the "trickiest", so this should lead to a lot less guaranteed combos at higher percents.

 

[Ijuka]

Not to be an *******, but you're the 4th person on this page to ask for advice on the falco ditto. Start by reading some of the above posts

edit: insta karma got me, "4th person on the page on which you asked"

General things about different falcos with different styles is an entirely different thing from something about mine in specific.

 

[The Soap]

How useful is waveshining? I use it occasionally to follow people's DI, then try to combo them off of that, but most of the time I just find it easier to just jump out of shine for follow-ups.

 

[Oskurito]

General things about different falcos with different styles is an entirely different thing from something about mine in specific.

1st match was bad for you, 2nd match you dominated, 3rd match was tied up.

I think you weren't as comfortable as the other guy on the platforms, you see, the neutral game changes a lot when you throw in platforms. Usually he would wait for you to approach and then get on a platform and drop to intercept you with an aerial, also he will sometimes wait for you to come and uptilt. 1st stock was very unfortunate for you though. Also, don't laser when close as he can hit you oos before you shoot another laser. Start baiting more instead of approaching always, try to dash dance + wavedash around for a little while to bait him and go for a punish. At 6:55 I think the best follow up after back throw is down angled forward tilt instead of downsmash, down smash is too slow, you can do another forward tilt before down smash ends. Anyway, but why didn't you short hop dair to kill him? he was right next to you :/

I think the big problem for you in the last match was that you were lacking platform mobility, the other falco looked like he had watched my videos, lol, jk. But yeah, that and the fact that you got an unlucky edgeguard situation on the 1st stock (which you could have reacted a bit earlier by staying on ground and intercepting from there instead of grabing the edge) and the missed edgeguard at 6:55.

Overall, try to pulish your techskill a little bit more, you were getting stuck in your shine a bit often. Not too many times actually, maybe you were nervous, i don't know, but it wouldn't hurt you to work on it as well. Also, try to perfect your combos on FD, this is something that you need to be at least 90% accurate to be succesful, learning how to tech dair comes in handy on falco dittos too. Then work on your platform mobility and finally work on your bait and punish game.

 

[L33thal]

Is there a safe way to get back on stage when Marth f-throws or d-throws you off stage? Whenever that happens it feels like your stock is gone lol.

If you jump, Marth will jab.
If you jump and airdodge, Marth will turn around and throw you off again.
If you up+b, Marth will d-tilt, counter, jab, shield breaker, or f-smash.
If you wall jump and side-b, Marth will jab.
If you shine stall to sweet spot, Marth will turn around and wavedash to edgehog.

 

[Bones0]

Is there a safe way to get back on stage when Marth f-throws or d-throws you off stage? Whenever that happens it feels like your stock is gone lol.

If you jump, Marth will jab.
If you jump and airdodge, Marth will turn around and throw you off again.
If you up+b, Marth will d-tilt, counter, jab, shield breaker, or f-smash.
If you wall jump and side-b, Marth will jab.
If you shine stall to sweet spot, Marth will turn around and wavedash to edgehog.

If they predict (or in some cases react) properly, you are dead. Ultimately, you can't be getting thrown off stage. Make sure you DI up/up-away/up-in on the initial throw. From there, here are some good options you didn't mention:
- Immediate DJ dair
- DJ airdodge
- Walljump airdodge
- DJ back Phantasm high
- DJ back and short Phantasm to the ledge (only if they are far enough in that their dtilt isn't going really far out)

You say Marth turns around and WDs to edgehog when you shine stall, but that takes quite a while so you can easily DJ on stage on reaction. Also, you can up-B by the ledge right when he grabs it and he won't be able to hit you because as soon as he drops you will grab the ledge. All the options you listed for Marth covering your up-B (presumably from below) are techable. Marth can go down and hit you during the charge, but if someone never does it or up-B is your only option, none of those things should KO you. The only one you won't usually be able to tech is jab, which can be sweetspotted under anyway.

 

[Beat!]

You can space air dodge up (and the subsequent fall to the ground) in a way that makes it hard for Marth to tell whether he should turn around or not before grabbing.

You don't necessarily have to sweetspot after shine stalling. Shine stall -> airdodge up is a solid option which - combined with the threat of instant DJ dair - makes WD -> edgehog a relatively risky business for Marth.

I do not recommend up-Bing from below the ledge unless you have to. Worst case scenario he reacts/reads it and just goes down and hits you. Best case scenario you find yourself in an RPS-esque scenario which is even more slanted in Marth's favour than your conventional recovery options after being thrown off.

 

[whitemountain123]

General things about different falcos with different styles is an entirely different thing from something about mine in specific.

Ok, I just meant that I understood your post as asking for advice about the falco ditto in general too (you saying "some protips?", "my dittos in general are pretty crappy," "i have trouble with the neutral game", which would suggest a lack of understanding of the matchup in general). I understand if you want specific advice as well, but the previous posts would be a good starting point.

in any case, i took a look at the third match and i'd say the main thing that stuck out to me is that you didn't counter his approaches enough (which i know can sometimes be hard in the ditto). but specifically:
---use retreating bair, dair, and utilt to counter his laser/laser aerial approaches. you can act of laser stun earlier than you probably think. also, in general there were spots where you stayed in shield a bit too long, and/or just tried to reset with a roll or fh oos, which is fine, but i think you could've laser'd oos or shined oos or just not have shielded quite as early as you did

 

[Jackson]

Are there any tricks you guys know to really get wavedashing down? I can do them but i often full hop instead of wavedashing. It would be cool to learn of an exercise i can use to get my success rate to 100 %. I main Falco in Project M, by the way, but this seemed like a good place to ask since all you guys seem intelligent.

 

[L33thal]

Are there any tricks you guys know to really get wavedashing down? I can do them but i often full hop instead of wavedashing. It would be cool to learn of an exercise i can use to get my success rate to 100 %. I main Falco in Project M, by the way, but this seemed like a good place to ask since all you guys seem intelligent.

I think you might be pressing L/R too early. Falco's wavedash has a longer delay between the moment you jump and airdodge compared to some of the other characters.

Just to clarify, wavedashing is basically when you: 1) jump and 2) airdodge (using L/R) onto the ground.

A basic way to practice wavedashing is to try to wavedash in place. Basically, just stay in one place and don't move right or left. Just jump, then airdodge down. This is just a very basic way to get the timing down.

Another way to practice wavedashing in general is to pick a stage that has ramps, platforms with different heights, parts of the stage that move up, etc. Try to jump and airdodge onto platforms and stuff. You can focus on getting the timing down first. Then you can try it at different heights to really get a feel of how it all works. Hope this helps.

 

[Jackson]

I think you might be pressing L/R too early. Falco's wavedash has a longer delay between the moment you jump and airdodge compared to some of the other characters.

Just to clarify, wavedashing is basically when you: 1) jump and 2) airdodge (using L/R) onto the ground.

A basic way to practice wavedashing is to try to wavedash in place. Basically, just stay in one place and don't move right or left. Just jump, then airdodge down. This is just a very basic way to get the timing down.

Another way to practice wavedashing in general is to pick a stage that has ramps, platforms with different heights, parts of the stage that move up, etc. Try to jump and airdodge onto platforms and stuff. You can focus on getting the timing down first. Then you can try it at different heights to really get a feel of how it all works. Hope this helps.

Great, thanks. I've tested it out and I think you're right about me airdodging too early.

 

[Mogwai]

Are there any tricks you guys know to really get wavedashing down? I can do them but i often full hop instead of wavedashing. It would be cool to learn of an exercise i can use to get my success rate to 100 %. I main Falco in Project M, by the way, but this seemed like a good place to ask since all you guys seem intelligent.

Honestly, I don't know of any tricks to tighten up wavedashing, you just need to drill it until you feel comfortable with it.

Then you need to relearn it out of a shine that hits, since the hitlag from shine hitting frequently screws people up when they're used to just drilling it without hitting a target.

 

[Jackson]

Honestly, I don't know of any tricks to tighten up wavedashing, you just need to drill it until you feel comfortable with it.

Then you need to relearn it out of a shine that hits, since the hitlag from shine hitting frequently screws people up when they're used to just drilling it without hitting a target.

Yeah, i'll just practice, practice, practice till it becomes muscle memory. And oddly enough, I find it easier to waveshine out of shines that actually hit. I'm getting better at both though.

 

[Russ The Love Muss]

What's the best way to approach someone on a first level platform (i.e. the two platforms on Battlefield and Yoshi's)? Most of the time I'll end up just full hop nairing but the full hop sends me too high to get anything off it and trying to come down on top of them doesn't work out a lot of the time.

 

[alphabattack]

I just copied this from r/smashbros, but I could really use some help, and some pointers, cause this game is getting unbearable.

So here are the two matches I had on stream.
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/561172599
@4:33:25
and @4:55:40

As you can tell, I am not great. One thing that one of the better players said to me was that I don't play smart. I just have tech skill, but I don't think about what I'm doing. One issue is that I have no idea what to do. Logistically, I know that I am supposed to get the opponent offstage, and kill them off the side, but after that I feel clueless on what to do. Another issue is that I don't even know what he meant when he said, "you don't play smart." I don't think I played my best in these sets, I think I did much better in friendlies before hand, but I still did fine for my level. As someone who was a part of the massacre that was these sets, it is so hard to continue playing this game. I want to get better, but I feel like no matter how much effort I put in to getting better, I get nothing out of it. Those are my thoughts. Thanks for reading this!

 

[mooki]

What's the best way to approach someone on a first level platform (i.e. the two platforms on Battlefield and Yoshi's)? Most of the time I'll end up just full hop nairing but the full hop sends me too high to get anything off it and trying to come down on top of them doesn't work out a lot of the time.

Way to many variables missing to give you an answer but here's some food for thought. If I know I can do it without getting punished, on Fox at low to mid percent, I'll jump up to the height of the platform with a FH, shine try below it, and waveland on the platform. It's not going to work as well in neutral compared to a situation where you're tech chasing them because they can just dash away if they see it coming.

 

[Bones0]

What's the best way to approach someone on a first level platform (i.e. the two platforms on Battlefield and Yoshi's)? Most of the time I'll end up just full hop nairing but the full hop sends me too high to get anything off it and trying to come down on top of them doesn't work out a lot of the time.

SH uair is a good default option to poke at people on side plats without exposing yourself.

I just copied this from r/smashbros, but I could really use some help, and some pointers, cause this game is getting unbearable.

So here are the two matches I had on stream.
http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/561172599
@4:33:25
and @4:55:40

As you can tell, I am not great. One thing that one of the better players said to me was that I don't play smart. I just have tech skill, but I don't think about what I'm doing. One issue is that I have no idea what to do. Logistically, I know that I am supposed to get the opponent offstage, and kill them off the side, but after that I feel clueless on what to do. Another issue is that I don't even know what he meant when he said, "you don't play smart." I don't think I played my best in these sets, I think I did much better in friendlies before hand, but I still did fine for my level. As someone who was a part of the massacre that was these sets, it is so hard to continue playing this game. I want to get better, but I feel like no matter how much effort I put in to getting better, I get nothing out of it. Those are my thoughts. Thanks for reading this!

This might help:
http://shoryuken.com/srk/FightingGamePrimer.pdf

 

[alphabattack]

SH uair is a good default option to poke at people on side plats without exposing yourself.


This might help:
http://shoryuken.com/srk/FightingGamePrimer.pdf

Thanks! I need to bookmark this!

 

[OninO]

Wow, that resource is amazing, I'm definitely at the same level as alphabattack atm, pure focus on "how to", haven't really learned anything yet about "when to".

 

[Jackson]

Wow, that resource is amazing, I'm definitely at the same level as alphabattack atm, pure focus on "how to", haven't really learned anything yet about "when to".

You mean you're all about tech skill and stuff but aren't good at the mental aspect of the game?

 

[OninO]

You mean you're all about tech skill and stuff but aren't good at the mental aspect of the game?

Yeah dude, that's exactly it. I actually had a practise session against a Marth last night after reading that document. That Marth usually wrecks me and I've even been going so far as to john about how Marth's really hard (scrubbing out). Last night though all the tech stuff that I've been working on went back down to my hands, instead of in my head, and I just watched what he did. Turns out he's not just a wall of swords, he's got heaps of flaws and we ended up going even most of the time.

So yeah, great document!

 

[L33thal]

I'm working on all the "when" and "how" stuff too. My advice is to watch a lot of videos (who doesn't get hyped watching Falco dittos) e.g. Lambchops vs. Porkchops and look at how they approach and what options they pick.

It's kinda like... you can be "good" without advanced techniques (like having good timing with dash attacks, rolls, and smash attacks). But, because you incorporate advanced techniques, you add so much more depth and skill to your game. Same thing goes for approaches and options. You can be "good" with the standard laser-> aerial, but incorporating advanced approaching/movement adds a whole lot to your game. I was in a bit of funk with the SHL->Dair thing, but I feel like I'm improving on my platform movement.

 

[mooki]

Hey guys. I played a couple games today that I recorded and I had a question about a certain situation. At 3:57 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ofpxUgvHoQw#t=236, Marth jumps at me, I run away and run back to try to hit his jump with a shuffle nair, but I get naired in the face by him. I don't really know what to do against that know. Should I have just kept running out of the full range of the short hop and try to punish when he lands? Would I be able to maybe run away, and wavedash the rest of the distance needed to set up for an up-tilt where he would land? I feel like that wouldn't work because his sword during a nair would reach to where I'd have to be after the wavedash to set up for an up-tilt. I feel like there's got to be something I can do to punish Marth when I see him coming at me like that, but right now I'm at a lose. All I can think of that I could have done better than what I did in the video is to have just kept running so I wouldn't have gotten hit, but then I would have given up stage and not have gotten a punish.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

@ Bones0 , @ Dr Peepee

 

[xman]

Hey guys. I played a couple games today that I recorded and I had a question about a certain situation. At 3:57 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ofpxUgvHoQw#t=236, Marth jumps at me, I run away and run back to try to hit his jump with a shuffle nair, but I get naired in the face by him. I don't really know what to do against that know. Should I have just kept running out of the full range of the short hop and try to punish when he lands? Would I be able to maybe run away, and wavedash the rest of the distance needed to set up for an up-tilt where he would land? I feel like that wouldn't work because his sword during a nair would reach to where I'd have to be after the wavedash to set up for an up-tilt. I feel like there's got to be something I can do to punish Marth when I see him coming at me like that, but right now I'm at a lose. All I can think of that I could have done better than what I did in the video is to have just kept running so I wouldn't have gotten hit, but then I would have given up stage and not have gotten a punish.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

@ Bones0 , @ Dr Peepee

i think using something out of shield would be a good choice in that situation. falco isnt the quickest runner and marth has a lot of reach i could see where running away and back on another character would be better.