PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

I will beat you down.

 

[oukd]

dat arial bold

god im so salty i cant smash atm =_= pp you better come back to xanadu in may or something

 

[DuckPimp]

PP, i will...... not get jv 5-stocked by you. or maybe i will.

 

[Bieber]

hey pp i saw you teamed with mahone at xanadu

my usual teammate and i rock the falco puff team, so i was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your thoughts on how that team should work

we usually try to have falco control center and pretty much 2v1 all game while i (the puff) hang out near the edge, playing support and converting his stray hits into gimps/rests, and coming in to the center to break up the action when falco starts to get combo'd or loses positional advantage or whatever. do you think that's an optimal positional strategy, or does it leave the falco too vulnerable? just in general what things do you do, as a falco, that allow your puff teammate to play to her strengths? and what do you expect/like to see from your puff teammate?

i'd appreciate any input, thanks man

 

[Bones0]

Idk why PP and Mahone kept going to FD (I only watched the last set though). It seems so much harder for Puff to convert stray bairs on flat ground whereas when you have people on plats she can get simple uair chains, rising bair to hit peoples' feet, and get rests off of platform tech chases. But what do I know. I've played like 100 games of teams my entire life.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey pp i saw you teamed with mahone at xanadu

my usual teammate and i rock the falco puff team, so i was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your thoughts on how that team should work

we usually try to have falco control center and pretty much 2v1 all game while i (the puff) hang out near the edge, playing support and converting his stray hits into gimps/rests, and coming in to the center to break up the action when falco starts to get combo'd or loses positional advantage or whatever. do you think that's an optimal positional strategy, or does it leave the falco too vulnerable? just in general what things do you do, as a falco, that allow your puff teammate to play to her strengths? and what do you expect/like to see from your puff teammate?

i'd appreciate any input, thanks man

I follow Umbreon's teams theory presently, and that is have us 2v1 a player while kicking out their other guy. I needed Mahone and myself to double team Chillin while we kept out M2K since their styles allow for this play to work out ideally, but Mahone sometimes wasn't close enough when I grabbed and I think we both got a little outplayed sometimes(less sure on that since I haven't watched it yet but it was my impression.)

I can get mad grabs as Falco, but I can't do much off of them quickly especially in teams. So I need a Puff player that can handle being close but also who can wall off the opponent then switch to rests. I have no problem going in if the Puff can kinda handle 2v1s as I die more often lol.

Don't like that you stay too far from your teammate and hope you get fed free kills, that only works if you're m2k's sheik and your team is probably better than the opponents' team lol.

 

[Divinokage]

We need to team PP at some point! Impulse 2?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i've been priming him to team with you kage. make it happen before i figure out how to fox in teams and he doesn't understand how to team with ganon anymore lol.

it would be good though.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Don't think I'm going to Impulse 2 the way my schedule for summer looks =(

I dunno if I can even go to EVO yet haha we takin baby steps over here in NC right now.

Edit: LOL chris way to go to bed

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it's hard out here. got all comfortable then realized my contacts were still in. figured i'd lurk around for a bit before dealing with it.

you're gonna be sad you bailed on me earlier. more mindblowing things from pchem have been taught. had to accept some dirty truths today.

 

[whitemountain123]

I follow Umbreon's teams theory presently, and that is have us 2v1 a player while kicking out their other guy. I needed Mahone and myself to double team Chillin while we kept out M2K since their styles allow for this play to work out ideally, but Mahone sometimes wasn't close enough when I grabbed and I think we both got a little outplayed sometimes(less sure on that since I haven't watched it yet but it was my impression.)

I can get mad grabs as Falco, but I can't do much off of them quickly especially in teams. So I need a Puff player that can handle being close but also who can wall off the opponent then switch to rests. I have no problem going in if the Puff can kinda handle 2v1s as I die more often lol.

Don't like that you stay too far from your teammate and hope you get fed free kills, that only works if you're m2k's sheik and your team is probably better than the opponents' team lol.

Hey, I'm the falco player Bieber was referring to (we team together often). Can you clarify something for me?

What's the optimal spatial layout of you and your teammate respective to the opposing team's players? Do you like to both be in center stage with the opposing players on the periphery? Or do you like something more like (from left to right on the stage) [opponent 1]-> [you or your teammate] -> [opponent 2] -> [you or your teammate]? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what the best way to 2v1 the other team while not being left too vulnerable.

My current thoughts are that as falco I'd much rather not have my back to the edge, but perhaps that's okay for puff. If we're both in the middle, however , the puff or I could wall out the opponent closest to us, but it'd be hard to actually 2v1 the other person (e.g., if I grab the opponent closest to me, it might be hard for the puff to get over fast enough to rest off that grab). I guess maybe that's sorta what you were saying about the puff being close enough...

 

[WestBallz]

Hey guys wanna kno a secrect? If you get hit off the stage and if you hold up during your hitstun and press up b without using your double jump you still have it if you get hit out of your firebird. Crazy right? New metagame material right her. Did it in a match and survived a shine spike

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

so itz a JC firebird, holy **** 2020 metagame

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey, I'm the falco player Bieber was referring to (we team together often). Can you clarify something for me?

What's the optimal spatial layout of you and your teammate respective to the opposing team's players? Do you like to both be in center stage with the opposing players on the periphery? Or do you like something more like (from left to right on the stage) [opponent 1]-> [you or your teammate] -> [opponent 2] -> [you or your teammate]? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what the best way to 2v1 the other team while not being left too vulnerable.

My current thoughts are that as falco I'd much rather not have my back to the edge, but perhaps that's okay for puff. If we're both in the middle, however , the puff or I could wall out the opponent closest to us, but it'd be hard to actually 2v1 the other person (e.g., if I grab the opponent closest to me, it might be hard for the puff to get over fast enough to rest off that grab). I guess maybe that's sorta what you were saying about the puff being close enough...

Depends on matchup, but I subscribe to Umbreon's teams theory presently. I, as the Falco and personally, prefer going in, so I'm between two people usually but it can switch up.

Me/puff, opponent, puff/me, other opponent lol

^ideal situation. 2v1 the middle dude and kick the other one away.

Yes that's exactly the thing about Puff being close enough! It's okay for either to be in the middle I'd guess because Puff should be closer to you anyway. The goal is to not really fight the outer guy and even if they run in hard they just get knocked away or easily punished or their punish isn't worth it because our 2v1 strategy should be swift and more powerful than any one tactic PLUS the guy on the outside could just punish the opponent rushing in ideally so the advantage should always go to the people 2v1'ing almost always.

I think you should test whether you should be in the middle or your opponent and which matchups/players you prefer doing it to but learn to be outside and in the middle because you will inevitably be switched up regardless of what you want because that's Melee lol.




And Wes WTF gonna test that in like 2 hours

 

[Bones0]

I have a hard time believing no one ever noticed that before...


Anyways, anyone feel like giving me a critique?

Bones (Falco) vs. Mahone (Jigglypuff)

For the record, I wasn't missing the uthrow DI game 1. I was just doing slight behind DI because I only get to practice vs. Marth and that's my first (and only) instinct...
-_-

I usually like never miss the DI, but I guess I reverted to habits because of nerves.

 

[Bieber]

my falco is jankity but from a puff perspective there's a few things that make this matchup hard that you weren't really doing

whenever you feel like shielding against puff, uptilt instead. mahone ***** you for being in shield like every time

stop approaching her so much, just control center with lasers bairs uptilts and sometimes dairs if the puff tries to wavedash in under your lasers

don't let her take center so much, whenever you have her offstage or up in the air it should be way harder for her to get back than you're making it, watch pp and how he makes not having stage control a living hell for hbox

 

[Bones0]

my falco is jankity but from a puff perspective there's a few things that make this matchup hard that you weren't really doing

whenever you feel like shielding against puff, uptilt instead. mahone ***** you for being in shield like every time

stop approaching her so much, just control center with lasers bairs uptilts and sometimes dairs if the puff tries to wavedash in under your lasers

don't let her take center so much, whenever you have her offstage or up in the air it should be way harder for her to get back than you're making it, watch pp and how he makes not having stage control a living hell for hbox

I knew I was shielding pretty predictably after that first game, but I had no idea what to do instead other than buffer dodges. I will definitely try utilting in place of that. I'll also try to get more out of my positional advantage. Unsurprisingly, I think these are two parts of my game that I am weak in for all of my matchups. Thanks for the input.

 

[ShroudedOne]

uh...

So I guess the rule isn't "Getting hit out of your upB means you lose your jump" like everyone says it is.

This game is stupid.

 

[Ziodyne]

Hey guys wanna kno a secrect? If you get hit off the stage and if you hold up during your hitstun and press up b without using your double jump you still have it if you get hit out of your firebird. Crazy right? New metagame material right her. Did it in a match and survived a shine spike

yo, does this work with any character or just falco?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

yessss it works, no more sharp shooters gonna take my jump, ****in m2k and tht shiek

 

[WestBallz]

one thing i forgot to mention....this technique isnt that useful cause you only keep your DJ is if you get hit while your are charging your firebird not while you are moving. Anyway thats why i never told anyone till now....cuz i didn't see a use for it until i survived a shine spike recently

 

[Voltz]

I have a hard time believing no one ever noticed that before...


Anyways, anyone feel like giving me a critique?

Bones (Falco) vs. Mahone (Jigglypuff)

For the record, I wasn't missing the uthrow DI game 1. I was just doing slight behind DI because I only get to practice vs. Marth and that's my first (and only) instinct...
-_-

I usually like never miss the DI, but I guess I reverted to habits because of nerves.

Yikes, those commentators were terrible.

Anyways, I am no top player, but I think you are supposed to abuse bair, and yeah, Utilt needs to be used more frequently (you rolled and shielded too much instead).

 

[Bones0]

I don't like using too many bairs or utilts when I'm in neutral because I feel like it gets me baired randomly a lot. It's just super easy for Puff to weave around stuff when I'm just zoning.

 

[Voltz]

I don't like using too many bairs or utilts when I'm in neutral because I feel like it gets me baired randomly a lot. It's just super easy for Puff to weave around stuff when I'm just zoning.

Well, it just feels much safer then rolling , and actually Mango himself said that bair is important in the Mu.

 

[S l o X]

that is pretty cool.

also watched pp's sets vs darc and hbox and bair is pretty powerful. utilt is good in combos but bones is right about getting bair'd, you can't just throw it out. you can however use it to trade with her nair / fair if you think it's worth it. (completely dependent on %)

what DONT i do vs samus?

 

[whitemountain123]

I have a hard time believing no one ever noticed that before...


Anyways, anyone feel like giving me a critique?

Bones (Falco) vs. Mahone (Jigglypuff)

For the record, I wasn't missing the uthrow DI game 1. I was just doing slight behind DI because I only get to practice vs. Marth and that's my first (and only) instinct...
-_-

I usually like never miss the DI, but I guess I reverted to habits because of nerves.

Yeah, definitely take what Bieber said to heart. Bair and utilt are great for this matchup (dair and grab are also important). One thing i think a lot of falco players don't internalize in this matchup, though, is that as equally hard as puff can wall falco, falco can wall out puff. If you have center stage, a lot of times you can mix up lasers, sh, dj, and fh bairs and get some free percent on puff. i find that getting safe(r) percent on puff is often the best choice (rather than trying something risky with dair), since she dies so early most of the time, and it can frustrate the hell out of the puff player too. It seemed like you ran into his attacks a lot by trying to force a sh dair especially in the second match, when he was above sh dair height. Instead, you could've been more patient, and lasered and baired a bit more before going in if at all. You should also try to abuse fh a bit more, since that can throw off puff's spacing and allow you to approach at angles that are harder for her to counter.

Finally, i'm not sure about the stage choice. I don't know what what the counterpick rules were, but I'd have taken either pokemon or yoshis over FoD.

 

[Bones0]

I prefer FoD over PS because of how much earlier you can kill Puff when she misses the DI on a bair, and it gives me a top platform to FH to and come down from with dairs. The low platforms also seem to mess up a lot of Puff's AC aerials while allowing me to pressure safely. Ideally I would have went YS, but he banned it.

 

[TheGoat]

Westballz! Thanks for the imba tip. Keep up the flashy and rapealicoius falco

 

[S l o X]

lost to tope and reno today. i feel like im doing something completely wrong but i'm not sure what it is.

i just know im terrible once im off stage, i think i died EVERY time and got hit when Tope was invincible every time.

http://youtu.be/d4-01WnWLuo (v Tope)
http://youtu.be/4MM--_yWyVU (v Reno)

 

[Bones0]

SypherPhoenix and I tested the whole double jumping after up-B thing. It doesn't have anything to do with holding up. Some characters have startup frames on their up-Bs that are different from their actual up-B. The only characters we tested that did have these frames were Fox, Falco, Pikachu (I'd assume Pichu's up-B works the same), and Ness. All 4 have startup-specific frames in which if they are knocked out of their up-B they will retain their double jump. We tested Captain Falcon as well, but he does not have any sort of startup frames so he cannot double jump after getting knocked out of his up-B. Fox and Falco's startup lasts the whole time until they start moving, but Pikachu and Ness have much smaller windows (before Pikachu starts moving, or before Ness's projectile comes out).

The only requirements for retaining your double jump after an up-B are:
1. You have not double jumped since the last time you landed, and
2. You were hit during the startup frames of your up-B.

The most important thing to remember is that #1 applies to incidental double jumps right before up-Bing. The ways to avoid double jumping before your initial up-B are hold up either during stun, lag, or after FHing, tilt the stick so that tap jump doesn't register, or press up+B on the same frame (really difficult).

 

[WestBallz]

lost to tope and reno today. i feel like im doing something completely wrong but i'm not sure what it is.

i just know im terrible once im off stage, i think i died EVERY time and got hit when Tope was invincible every time.

http://youtu.be/d4-01WnWLuo (v Tope)
http://youtu.be/4MM--_yWyVU (v Reno)

Double jumping wayyyy wayyy to much, getting punished oos almost everytime, big part of why u got hit oos so much was cause u played to aggressive and cuz you hit the top of their shield. you didnt laser almost at all. shield pressure needs tons of work. ur not grabbing enough. when u do get a grab ur not upthrowing everytime. u laserd to close which got u hit. Your not focusing on patterns such as teching. Sheik is the easiest character to edgeguard and ur still ****ing it up. Easy way to edgeguard is to full hop off stage while u are facing it threatening sheik with a bair so she has to up b further from the stage which means u get back on the edge press forward and dsmash. your combos are sub par. start using shine more at lower percents and uptilt more at higher percent. Start playing a bit safer and dont attack so much. My 2 cents as to what u were doing wrong

 

[Divinokage]

Double jumping wayyyy wayyy to much, getting punished oos almost everytime, big part of why u got hit oos so much was cause u played to aggressive and cuz you hit the top of their shield. you didnt laser almost at all. shield pressure needs tons of work. ur not grabbing enough. when u do get a grab ur not upthrowing everytime. u laserd to close which got u hit. Your not focusing on patterns such as teching. Sheik is the easiest character to edgeguard and ur still ****ing it up. Easy way to edgeguard is to full hop off stage while u are facing it threatening sheik with a bair so she has to up b further from the stage which means u get back on the edge press forward and dsmash. your combos are sub par. start using shine more at lower percents and uptilt more at higher percent. Start playing a bit safer and dont attack so much. My 2 cents as to what u were doing wrong

^New leffen or what? lol.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

how shud i follow up my grabs cuz i usually uthrow->bair but i dot know what i can do with fthrow and bthrow besides edgeguard setups, is backthrow regrabs realistic or is it that people getting regrabbed after a falco bthrow didnt di it properly?

 

[Wretched]

I forward throw Fox or anybody who can't jump before they hit the ground. If he is the right % range, you can wavedash forward right after your throw. You can tech chase him if he techs in place or behind you. If he techs away, you're an ideal distance from him. Most of the time, a forward throw will force them to roll towards the ledge, they will tech in place, or they will roll towards you. You either get a free punish from the tech chase, or you put Fox in an undesirable position. I like that more than hoping to get a bair from uthrow.

 

[Bones0]

^New leffen or what? lol.

There weren't any personal attacks in that critique, so I'm not sure how that makes him seem like Leffen. lol

 

[TheGoat]

^New leffen or what? lol.

That's insulting. All westballz did was give lots of compact and good advice, he didn't act like an ass at all

 

[Divinokage]

That's insulting. All westballz did was give lots of compact and good advice, he didn't act like an *** at all

Lol that's great, all I really needed. It's just that when I read "your combos are subpar" I mean anyone can say that to anybody, it doesnt mean that much and it pretty much says you suck ****, get better. And that's why I thought of that.

 

[WestBallz]

Lol that's great, all I really needed. It's just that when I read "your combos are subpar" I mean anyone can say that to anybody, it doesnt mean that much and it pretty much says you suck ****, get better. And that's why I thought of that.

Rofl i said his combos were sub par, then i preceded to tell him how to combo better by telling him to shine more at lower percents and uptilt more at higher percents but obviously u have selective reading. ROFL keep making urself look dumb its quite amusing

 

[Deleted member]

pretty sure his advice was not refutable.

"stop doing bad things" is usually pretty good advice at any level of play. nothing wrong with helping someone identify what those bad things are.

 

[Divinokage]

Why are you guys even saying this? Ridiculous lol. I guess making a joke is so out of this world for you guys, cant even understand my thought process.

Anyways, west you know it's war, that's what you get for saying im not top 20.