PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rocketpowerchill]

Yo Bones, im in laurel,md near baltimore. I goto Xanadu and im just gettin into the local smash scene. Really trying to go to some more tournaments and play more people.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Yea in my question i was referring to a jump onto platform into instant grounded double shine. I guess its just practice to get the timing down.

 

[whitemountain123]

Here's my new thing on fighting Marth:

You can't fight him like a spacie because he has too much range and can counterattack you a lot. You ALSO can't stay real far away because then he gets easy powershields. You have to weave and shoot in different threatening ranges you can attack or at least approach from so Marth has to kinda guess on his commitments and you can punish if you need to.

The Mexicans are good vs spacies because you can just go nuts and attack a lot and do well, but if you back off some it's okay since spacies have smaller moves and trade places with each other a lot in the stage game. Marth cares a lot about stage control so if you get it from him then he's easier. Also if you are more patient or calculated vs Marth and don't fight him like a spacie then that will do a lot of good for you as well.

Everyone struggles with the neutral in this matchup because it's sooooo much different than every other character. Read THIS if you haven't already. I wrote it a while ago, but most of what I say about managing your positioning relative to Marth's tipper range is the core of the neutral game vs. Marth. If PSing is doing work on you, use combinations of empty hops, high lasers that you run under when PSed, and low lasers that you jump over when PSed. Most Marths either stop PSing completely when you punish them a few times for it, or they keep trying to do it while you continue to punish them. If you do get hit by a PSed laser, pay attention to what they punish with. Most Marths either PS and followup by WDing OoS into grab. Others will use fsmash. Just use shield, buffered roll, and buffered spot dodge appropriately.

If you end up with more specific questions, you can ask here or PM me and I'll be able to help you more. Neutral is such a complex thing that it's hard to really tell you what to adjust without videos or very specific descriptions of what happens to you. Are you getting pivot grabbed, faired out of your approaches, tapped when you try to laser? etc.

never thanked you guys for the responses. sorry bout that. Most of that does sort of mesh with my experience, though I always find it harder to implement theory vs. marth (in particular) than come up with it/understand it. I've also found that varying the "rhythm" of my approaches/dd (as I think PP mentioned as one type of solo training techniques) helps a lot too. Anyways, I'll do my best to implement it. Just came to Israel for a study abroad thingy though so we'll see if anybody here plays marth lol.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm thinking I'm going to try picking up this character because he seems easy to be consistent with/get good results.

Anyone want to help me understand some things to go off of aerial shines (like if I shine out of shield or just catch them). I like waveland onto platforms, but what if that isn't an option(FD)?

Also, should I try to get down waveshine out of shield? It seems hard, but I'm not sure if it is worth it, for consistency.

Also Also, I think I remember bones talking about westballs pressure where you shine -> midair shine -> waveland down. This allows you to punish them trying to get out of shield? What is the timing differences compared to double shine -> wavedash down? Do I simply delay the second shine? (note: I don't want to implement this, just curious.)

 

[Bones0]

The midair shine is pointless unless you want to DJ WL onto a plat. There are no timing differences between the two because you can always just hold shine for a split second longer before JCing into another multishine. I am baffled at how Westballz still gets away with his pressure because of how unsafe it is. You can easily shield grab someone waveshining in front of you, and airdodging only makes that window wider. They can also just roll away after the second shine every time, and even if you do hit, your punishment options are a lot worse since you have to airdodge down to the ground instead of just immediately jumping from the ground.

If you can't grounded multishine yet, then just DJ to a nearby plat or don't use a second shine at all. I wouldn't recommend new Falco players trying to incorporate multishines anyway. It doesn't really change how you play the character; it just adds another layer of shield pressure that your opponent has to be concerned with. There are a lot more important things you can be focusing on, and trying to be shine-happy every time you touch someone's shield is a bad habit to get into anyway.

 

[Purpletuce]

At the moment I either waveshine away and then try to cover what they do (roll jump whatever) or shine-grab when I'm on a shield. . . I tried to waveshine through their shield to get behind them, but I just get grabbed :\

I've messed around with multishines already, and can do them decently sometimes, but it comes and goes. I don't know why they would be necessary though. . .

(I don't really want to be flashy btw, I want a very functionalist falco. More PP than Mango ya know?)

 

[Xyzz]

What's wrong with being shine happy every time you touch someones shield?
Ok, it is fun to sometimes just do something ridiculously unsafe like omitting the shine after the aerial and go straight to a grab / another aerial just to **** with them, but I feel I should be shining 99.5% of the time after I hit a shield and decide where to go from there (shine grab / double shine grab / double shine > another aerial > shine / waveshine away / shine > fade-away aerial are the things I commonly do)
Or did you just mean that going shine shine > wd down > shine shine on peoples shield every time is hella risky? If so I'd obviously agree, I'm kinda afraid of doing another aerial after the double shine already, so WD down is pretty much a no - go for me :D

edit: also, I *am* indeed trying to be as flashy as I can manage. If I want to win, I play Peach xD

 

[Purpletuce]

I think he was talking about extra shines. I doubt anyone thinks shines after aerials are generally unsafe . . .

I want to be unflashy because I've played for about a year and I've barely played Falco, so I haven't developed my technical abilities. I'd rather work on playing smarter anyway. . . Also there are three technical Falcos in my region who all talk about who is most technical, it would be funny to be the least technical. (to me)

 

[Meneks]

My goal is to win in the sickest/smoothest way possible, that being said its still not necessary to learn reverse shine waveland to shield drop, or multishine grab oos. But playing a smart falco also requires a lot of technical ability.

 

[EthereaL]

Just so you know, it is literally impossible to react to any aerial fast-fall from a full-hop that you do. They have to preemptively do something to respond.

Spoiler: Frame explanation

To break it down into more technical terms, they have 10 frames to react before your aerial hitbox touches them. It is impossible to react that fast.

 

[~~X~~]

play wes, its harder to get out of his shield pressure than it looks

 

[Purpletuce]

A lot of things "shouldn't" work by frame data, but are work pretty often. . . It might also be a thing where if he waveshines it covers any delayed option if you think he will double shine -> waveland down and if he double shines it beats something like shield grab.

Also, Shine -> WL on platform -> Shield drop B-air is technical? I feel like once I'm comfortable with the shine to turn around that would be really easy. . . (I can already shield drop. . .)

I was just messing around with multiple lasers per jump, these look cool:

run off stage/plat -> laser like LHDL
fulljump triple laser (hit b as fast as you can for medium-high-low)
fulljump -> pause -> double laser (both high)

Is lasering at weird heights a thing? If so what do you guys like to do to put them out there.

 

[ElloEddy]

play wes, its harder to get out of his shield pressure than it looks

its called rolling....when playing a shine happy falco whos just gonna shine and pressure your shield all the time instead of react to what your doing ....roll smart and WD OOS ....or aim your shield etc ....... or letting yourself get hit by shine and DI away and recover smart there are alot of ways to escape pressure

 

[Moooose]

non fast falled SHL's are useful against those pesky powershielders. they think they have u then the laser just flies right over ur head

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah any kind of laser mixup that gets them to shield is great since falco poops on shields

 

[Zoler]

yeah any kind of laser mixup that gets them to shield is great since falco poops on DK's shield

Fixed!

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't use DK anymore.

 

[Bones0]

Just so you know, it is literally impossible to react to any aerial fast-fall from a full-hop that you do. They have to preemptively do something to respond.

Spoiler: Frame explanation

To break it down into more technical terms, they have 10 frames to react before your aerial hitbox touches them. It is impossible to react that fast.

If they are any good, as soon as you FH they will space themselves to make sure they won't be within range of you when you land.

play wes, its harder to get out of his shield pressure than it looks

When he's actually doing good shield pressure techniques it is, but when he starts just spamming shines it's retardedly easy to grab or roll after the second shine (which is in the air so you know he can't punish you if you roll).

non fast falled SHL's are useful against those pesky powershielders. they think they have u then the laser just flies right over ur head

You can FF asap and still get the highest laser possible.

 

[EthereaL]

If they are any good, as soon as you FH they will space themselves to make sure they won't be within range of you when you land.

I don't see why that's a negative, or were you just commenting?

 

[Bones0]

My point was that even though you can't react to a Falco FF aerial from FH height, you can react to the FH itself so they know you are either going to FF and aerial and get ****ed up, or you're going to drift or DJ away from them. Your post seemed to suggest that doing a FF aerial from the peak of your jump was a good idea, but it's actually really awful. Maybe you weren't suggesting it was a good idea, but then idk why you would care how hard it is to react to.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think he was saying to try fast falling at the peak of your jump and then aerial. (I assumed that there was a gap so you aerial as late as possible to hit as low on shield as you can for maximum frame advantage. . . ) This is especially true so you don't have to land on platforms. . .

Also, if anyone thinks that simply rolling beats shield pressure (looking at YL guy) then you should try that against a good Falco. Rolling away from Falco's shield pressure usually gives him stage control, puts him in a position to follow up and is often what they want you to do. . . If he just air dodged down you're probably better off, but landing from the air dodge doesn't take long. . .

Mixing up lasers at any height messes with PSers. For example, if they crouch to PS, shoot a low laser and they will get hit, if they don't crouch shoot a medium height laser or go over their head and they will either get hit or shield. They kinda have to guess your laser height. (At least from what I've experienced.)

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

So yea goin off of shield pressure, when do u know to go Ballz Deep and **** up a shield and when do u know to waveshine to get the hell outta there. I need to know the do's and dont's cuz ive played many shieks/marths that sit on their asses and will wait for the first shine and grab me. The lesser experienced players will get shined if i FF Lcancel correctly. However, when i play against players that like to hold their shield more i either get grabbed or retreat cuz I'm havin trouble fluently SHFFling arials and shines/multishines. I feel this to be quite depressing amongst my game cuz i am then techchased and ftilt ->fair death guaranteed. I must say that executing nair shine after dair shine on handicapped cpus has really helped after 1st watching Eggm's video on shield pressure a while back. I am really mind ****ed right now. PLZZZ HELLLPPPP <3

 

[Purpletuce]

I never try to go "Ballz Deep", that just sounds like a bad idea, but you shouldn't be getting grabbed after you hit their shield, make sure you're shining right after L cancel, then you can do all kinds of things to beat the grab, WD back or SH back then when they miss the grab punish it. There are also flashier options, but if you can't SHFFL consistently you're probably better off just letting them whiff then punishing. If you're playing people who are tech chasing you with shiek then you're either being really predictable with your techs or you're playing a really good shiek who is reaction chasing you. If it is the latter, you're going to give them less openings and take more when they give you anything. . .

 

[Xyzz]

Shine grabs are hella easy to learn and super effectice against people camping their shield / trying to shield grab you after the shine, imho.
I've gotten one case of "how the hell can he grab me before I can grab him?" from one of the newer players in the area :D (answer was obviously "the bird's an asshole", which is kinda a running gag in our group, because it's so damn fitting. Every bird you come across in video games is hella annoying (Skarmory in Pokemon, birds in castlevania in general, Falco... just to name a few , and the real life ones are even worse... making noise at 9 am when I want to sleep? Just go to hell, stupid birds).

 

[Bones0]

I think he was saying to try fast falling at the peak of your jump and then aerial. (I assumed that there was a gap so you aerial as late as possible to hit as low on shield as you can for maximum frame advantage. . . ) This is especially true so you don't have to land on platforms. . .

Also, if anyone thinks that simply rolling beats shield pressure (looking at YL guy) then you should try that against a good Falco. Rolling away from Falco's shield pressure usually gives him stage control, puts him in a position to follow up and is often what they want you to do. . . If he just air dodged down you're probably better off, but landing from the air dodge doesn't take long. . .

Mixing up lasers at any height messes with PSers. For example, if they crouch to PS, shoot a low laser and they will get hit, if they don't crouch shoot a medium height laser or go over their head and they will either get hit or shield. They kinda have to guess your laser height. (At least from what I've experienced.)

We were talking specifically about shine-shine-WL, which is awful and can easily be rolled out of. Landing from an airdodge takes 10 frames, plus however many frames it actually took you to get to the ground, plus all the frames you wasted in the air before the airdodge. Waveshining in general is pretty unsafe on shields, but you can usually get away with it if you're crossing them up. If you're waveshining away or in place, you could very well get grabbed, and if you're airdodging instead of waveshining properly and they still don't grab you, you got lucky as ****.

Altering your laser height to mess them up is pretty risky because if they don't rely on crouching then it usually won't matter. Mixing up the timing of your laser is much more deceptive and likely to yield results. Even still, I'd rather laser in ways that allow me to maintain control even if they land the PS. You can laser low and jump over it, laser high and run under it, or you can not laser at all and just be prepared for their WD OoS (make sure you're not within their grab range when you empty hop though. That's the biggest problem with PSing is that you can't rely on lasers up close to force people into shield or catch their dash/WD away. They can just PS grab you, and the only mixup you have that will work is to aerial instead of laser (which obviously gets beat by the dash/WD back. This is the situation where I get the most mileage out of not FFing my laser so it comes out as my opponent is trying to PS grab instead of right in line with his expectations.

So yea goin off of shield pressure, when do u know to go Ballz Deep and **** up a shield and when do u know to waveshine to get the hell outta there. I need to know the do's and dont's cuz ive played many shieks/marths that sit on their ***** and will wait for the first shine and grab me. The lesser experienced players will get shined if i FF Lcancel correctly. However, when i play against players that like to hold their shield more i either get grabbed or retreat cuz I'm havin trouble fluently SHFFling arials and shines/multishines. I feel this to be quite depressing amongst my game cuz i am then techchased and ftilt ->fair death guaranteed. I must say that executing nair shine after dair shine on handicapped cpus has really helped after 1st watching Eggm's video on shield pressure a while back. I am really mind ****ed right now. PLZZZ HELLLPPPP <3

The days of doing multiple aerial-shines on shield are done. The only time you will be able to do that is once you've conditioned them heavily against certain options, and when they are pinned at the ledge or in some other bad position. How many times have you ever seen someone break someone's shield? It just never happens, and there's a reason. It requires the shielding player to be an idiot. There are too many escape opportunities in each iteration of aerial-shine, and many lead to solid counterattacks that Falco can't stand to take. Learn to take the earliest opportunities presented to you while pressuring someone. If their shield is small, don't try to break it with 3 more aerial-shines. Just go for a poke or position yourself for their OoS option (because you know they won't shield past a certain point).

If their shield is large and their percent is low, you should go for more shine-grabs. They will want to avoid shines at all costs because: 1. they have enough shield to wait for a better opportunity, and 2. they don't want to get shined at 0% and take a bunch of damage. At higher %s, they are going to be much more worried about getting killed by a shield poke bair than they are a shine. If you have them cornered, you can usually expect them to be more grab heavy because it gives them good gimp opportunities, and they also don't have any safe, backward movement option OoS (unless they want to WD onto the ledge, but that's good for Falco anyway).

So overall, view shield pressure as a means to an end, not the end itself. If you watch good Fox players, they really don't shield pressure too much. It's really risky, and you almost never get any solid punishes out of it. The good Fox players will pressure when they aerial a shield, but for the most part they try to just straight up hit their opponent in the first place. As a Falco, you should definitely try to get hits instead of hitting shields, but because Falco is so much slower than Fox, he usually has to trap opponents in shield before he can land hits. Watch top Falcos and see how they go through the general steps: neutral, forcing their opponent in shield (lasers are a huge part of this obviously), pressure, then punish. The pressure is only used to force them into worse positions. This is the general progression I've noticed from most Falcos, and I think doing all of that safely is what really allows for consistent first hits.

 

[Voltz]

Falco est incroyable.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

A big hole in my game is the lack of being the **** at lazers. Can someone explain Isaiah drops, shield drops etc.

 

[Bones0]

If you jump on a platform and try to drop through, you have to wait for the full landing animation to finish which takes a long time. Instead of waiting all that time, you can walk forward to cancel the animation, and then you can drop through immediately. When you land from a laser you have the same sort of landing animation so you can just treat it exactly the same. Just go practice landing on platforms, walking forward a little, and then dropping through. Once you can do that, start jumping and landing on platforms, walking forward, and then dropping through with a laser. Once you are consistent at that, you add in the second laser at the beginning. So you will land on a platform with a laser, walk forward, and laser after you drop through.

Shield dropping works the same way except you shield drop instead of doing a regular drop through. I wouldn't worry about it until you are really comfortable with Isai drops.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Awesome I never realized it was that easy, plus i used to try to start every match on yoshis with a dropping lazer but sometimes i wud get caught in my shune cuz m my crouch animation waz too long, this is gonna make my game flow much more smoothly, only question is how do u shield drop without spot dodging?

 

[Xyzz]

Don't move the control stick down all the way. The distance you need to move at some decent speed is far enough to not make you shield angle, but not enough to make you spotdodge. Just try to do something in between and you'll get the feeling eventually. I wouldn't really recommend learning it, despite it being awesome, because it is fairly hard.

 

[choknater]

can someone explain to me how this happened?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXlWYX0Nfj8

 

[Bones0]

can someone explain to me how this happened?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXlWYX0Nfj8

He edgeshined. It's when you shine, JC your shine, and then slide off during jumpsquat. It is usually done with momentum from a run or WD, but in this case he was simply pushed off by the pushback from shining the shield. So he shined the shield, got pushed back a little, and input another jump -> dair. He slid off during his jumpsquat, so he simply daired after sliding off.

People are quite often surprised when they try to jump off of a platform or stage with an aerial and simply aerial without the jump. It's confusing because they will swear they hit the jump button, but that is what is actually happening. Dark actually does it from a moonwalk in "Perfect Dark" at the 22 second mark on FD.

 

[Xyzz]

Dear Bones, I love you.

One more mystery of Smash explained. I reduced the frequency of my tournament winners (the ledge jump thingy where you just hit jump while on the edge) a lot after Wobbles (?) explained how that was due to the stick only registering inputs from the neutral position... and now this one <3 <3

 

[choknater]

ah thanks so much bones!

 

[Bones0]

I actually just solved one more mystery. People always ask how to prevent falling through platforms when shining, and usually people just tell them to hold down before landing. If you do happen to be just standing on the platform so that isn't an option, the trick is to let go of down by the end of the shine. It doesn't matter how far down you press it at all, although it is obviously easier to get the stick back to neutral quicker if you tilt, which is probably where that misconception came from. If you go into Training Mode at 1/4th speed you can see quite easily that you can smash down+B and still not drop through. Even at full speed, it's SUPER easy to not drop through if you hit your opponent. Hitting them means you have the entire duration of hitlag to let go. Shine hits frame 1, so after that frame you have hitlag, and then you have frames 2 and 3 after. So as long as you hit your opponent and let go of down pretty quickly, you should be able to avoid falling through the platform.

 

[Dr Peepee]

oh, cool info man!

 

[SuperMatt]

im trying to fix my game by watching mangos falco, he does all the small things right

he only shields when he absolutely has to...i shield out of fear after almost every hit which i need to change

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

PP will u hav time to review my falco and play friendlies with me @Xanadu

 

[Voltz]

Wait, PP is going to a Xanadu?

 

[Dr Peepee]

yes gimme smash