PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Hey guys,

Like so many other falcos, I'm struggling super hard with the marth matchup. I know a ton of people have posted asking about it (and I've read most of those posts), but I was hoping to get some help anyways.

When I think about it, I think one of the biggest reasons I struggle with it compared to other matchups is that I don't have an understanding of the neutral game. For most other matchups, I can think of ways falco can control neutral, but against marth (esp ones that can ps), I'm pretty lost.

Even when I watch PP against marths (PPU and M2K) it kinda looks like he's just the better player, and not so much that he leverages the matchup (vs lets say foxes or peaches or puff, etc.). Maybe I'm just not seeing it...

Anyways, any advice is appreciated!

Here's my new thing on fighting Marth:

You can't fight him like a spacie because he has too much range and can counterattack you a lot. You ALSO can't stay real far away because then he gets easy powershields. You have to weave and shoot in different threatening ranges you can attack or at least approach from so Marth has to kinda guess on his commitments and you can punish if you need to.

The Mexicans are good vs spacies because you can just go nuts and attack a lot and do well, but if you back off some it's okay since spacies have smaller moves and trade places with each other a lot in the stage game. Marth cares a lot about stage control so if you get it from him then he's easier. Also if you are more patient or calculated vs Marth and don't fight him like a spacie then that will do a lot of good for you as well.

 

[pokemongeof]

The Mexicans are good vs spacies

XD That sounds funny! But good advice PP!

 

[Bones0]

Hey guys,

Like so many other falcos, I'm struggling super hard with the marth matchup. I know a ton of people have posted asking about it (and I've read most of those posts), but I was hoping to get some help anyways.

When I think about it, I think one of the biggest reasons I struggle with it compared to other matchups is that I don't have an understanding of the neutral game. For most other matchups, I can think of ways falco can control neutral, but against marth (esp ones that can ps), I'm pretty lost.

Even when I watch PP against marths (PPU and M2K) it kinda looks like he's just the better player, and not so much that he leverages the matchup (vs lets say foxes or peaches or puff, etc.). Maybe I'm just not seeing it...

Anyways, any advice is appreciated!

Everyone struggles with the neutral in this matchup because it's sooooo much different than every other character. Read THIS if you haven't already. I wrote it a while ago, but most of what I say about managing your positioning relative to Marth's tipper range is the core of the neutral game vs. Marth. If PSing is doing work on you, use combinations of empty hops, high lasers that you run under when PSed, and low lasers that you jump over when PSed. Most Marths either stop PSing completely when you punish them a few times for it, or they keep trying to do it while you continue to punish them. If you do get hit by a PSed laser, pay attention to what they punish with. Most Marths either PS and followup by WDing OoS into grab. Others will use fsmash. Just use shield, buffered roll, and buffered spot dodge appropriately.

If you end up with more specific questions, you can ask here or PM me and I'll be able to help you more. Neutral is such a complex thing that it's hard to really tell you what to adjust without videos or very specific descriptions of what happens to you. Are you getting pivot grabbed, faired out of your approaches, tapped when you try to laser? etc.

 

[knightpraetor]

bones, can you direct me to a page that explains wiggling out of tumble animation to reach normal fall animation?

I have been doing tests to try to figure it out, but i'm getting inconsistent results while wiggling left and right to tumble out. I ran tests in which I tapped left then right one time during the fall to see whether it gets out and a lot of the time it fails. I would really like to understand how it works. What's a man gotta do to air dodge?

 

[Bones0]

bones, can you direct me to a page that explains wiggling out of tumble animation to reach normal fall animation?

I have been doing tests to try to figure it out, but i'm getting inconsistent results while wiggling left and right to tumble out. I ran tests in which I tapped left then right one time during the fall to see whether it gets out and a lot of the time it fails. I would really like to understand how it works. What's a man gotta do to air dodge?

I've never seen a technical breakdown on wiggling out of tumble. I either just hit left-right real quick, or when I'm recovering, I actually just double tap to the side I'm drifting towards so I can maintain as much momentum as possible. The reasons it may not be working for you are:
1. You're not out of stun when you begin wiggling, or
2. There may be a window that dictates how quickly you must input the wiggle, or
3. You have to full press to the side (but I don't think this is true; I'm pretty sure you only need to input two tilt inputs to the left and/or right)

How are you testing? Just off the top of my head, I would probably go to the left side of Hyrule and just WD off while holding shield (especially good because you can recover through the bottom if you mess up so you don't have to keep respawning). I'll test it myself when I get home and let you know my results, if you want.

 

[Bing]

Falco is not THAT easy a character to just pick up and play. I mean if you already have tech skill from maining other characters thats one thing, but as a new(er) person stepping in its not going to be super simple, though he does have a lot of Bread and Butter combos.

 

[Voltz]

Yeah, he is certainly not a pocket character.

 

[ChivalRuse]

That's true. I remember back when Cyrain first started using Falco as a secondary, I played him in a friendly, and I was manhandling him with ICs. But his Fox is really good, needless to say.

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks a lot bones. i'm 99% sure that I was out of stun though. I feel like there is a window or mechanism at work that i don't fully understand

 

[ElloEddy]

Yeah, he is certainly not a pocket character.

i beg to differ ...since everyone in nyc has a pocket falco 0_0 lol

 

[Ryobeat]

i beg to differ ...since everyone in nyc has a pocket falco 0_0 lol

Who has that?

 

[ElloEddy]

Who has that?

WK...Dan...Me..id say alu and dj..D1...mark..

 

[Bing]

i beg to differ ...since everyone in nyc has a pocket falco 0_0 lol

I will agree, Pocket Falco's are pretty common, but in the same sense that doesn't mean its the easiest character in the world to just pick up and play. Mr. Lombardi does require a decent amount of tech skill and consistency as well as knowing what combos into what/where and all that other crap.

 

[Scidadle]

The hardest and best falco combos take quite a bit of tech skill. He's a good pocket character if you have the required tech skill but that takes a fair amount of practice.

 

[BTmoney]

Sup?

I have a question on how to deal with shield pressure. I played a good falco for the first time and needless to say I got beat handily.

I watched some games and I noticed (good) players will attempt to roll as soon as a shine comes out on shield (possibly due to shines not having that much shield stun because it's a low damage move). I know rolling with C-stick allows you to roll on the first frame possible as opposed to the analog stick. Does that help in this scenario? Does buffering a role come into play?

I see people also often opt for a shield grab right after the shine comes out. I suppose if the falco (or fox) JC's fast enough this isn't safe.

I am preemptive against shield pressure since a lot of falco's have sloppy dairs. I can occasionally catch a raising dair on shield with a shield grab. But I can't rely on my opponent messing up their spacing, any help on getting out of shield pressure?

 

[Scidadle]

Roll is a good option in my experience.

You can try to sheild grab but it's risky. Anything that requires you to drop shield is risky vs good pressure honestly.

SPAM BUFFERED ROLL ACROSS THE STAGE AND COLLECT FEMALE ATTENTION

 

[noobird]

yeah buffer roll. or hold shield - if they double shine usually you'll end up being pushed away so you can just jump; if they aerial again then you can do stuff... only problem is if they shinegrab but shield pressure is always kind of rps. just don't do the same thing obviously.

okay so wait i just realized you can buffer jc grab out of shield lol. people do this right?

 

[Life]

Do you roll towards them or away generally? (Provided there's not like a ledge or something nearby that would cut off one of the options.)

 

[Bones0]

Roll mindgames.

 

[genkaku]

does westballz have a combo video?

 

[BTmoney]

Roll mindgames.

I appreciated that lmao

 

[Bones0]

does westballz have a combo video?

Every time he picks up the controller. lol

 

[Bing]

Westballz is ridiculous. Love that blue bird of his.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sup?

I have a question on how to deal with shield pressure. I played a good falco for the first time and needless to say I got beat handily.

I watched some games and I noticed (good) players will attempt to roll as soon as a shine comes out on shield (possibly due to shines not having that much shield stun because it's a low damage move). I know rolling with C-stick allows you to roll on the first frame possible as opposed to the analog stick. Does that help in this scenario? Does buffering a role come into play?

I see people also often opt for a shield grab right after the shine comes out. I suppose if the falco (or fox) JC's fast enough this isn't safe.

I am preemptive against shield pressure since a lot of falco's have sloppy dairs. I can occasionally catch a raising dair on shield with a shield grab. But I can't rely on my opponent messing up their spacing, any help on getting out of shield pressure?

Depends on a lot of things as pressure varies with spacing timing and conditioning among other variables.

Shield grabs work well if your character is taller/has a longer grab range because then Falco can't just delay moves or space out your grab range well.

Buffering rolls can be good but if your character has a mediocre roll or bad options out of a roll OR you do it too much then you'll easily get punished anyway.

Look for holes in shield pressure. Typically, delayed aerials beat shield grabs but early shield grabs/attacks beat delayed aerials. Moving early can sometimes avoid attacks depending on how you're viewing the pressure.

Shines also become less effective on shields as they connect more with people(usually in combos) and their damage stales, lessening their shield stun. This helps people avoid shine grabs more easily.

Double shines beat actions just after the shine except maybe buffered rolls, but if you double shine too much then people just wait for the second one/later actions before doing anything.

Pressure is much more complicated than all of this, but it's a good starting point.

 

[Bones0]

PP, would you care to go into how to keep floaties in the air? I love taking Marth's DJ in the ditto and I am pretty good at moving around to make sure he can't land, but I struggle to deal with airdodges and side-B stalls. I usually do the FH followed by a small wait in midair, and then I DJ uair to chase whichever direction they started drifting when I jumped (I have seen you and M2K do this). So everything goes fine, but then they'll airdodge through my uair because they know it's coming after the DJ. Should I try mixing up my timing more so I hit the uair, or am I just able to land and grab -> uthrow them to keep the juggle going? Is nair a possible option to beat airdodges?

 

[Dr Peepee]

rofl you asked this in the falco thread.

the fact that you say you usually do something should be your starting point. why do you do that? what purpose does it serve? what is it beaten by?

once you know those things, your answers usually open up for you.

I like doing what you suggested as well as waiting on the ground(standing as well as DD'ing or WD'ing last second into a punish of some sort) combined with various movement(air, ground, platform) in between.

Floaties can't handle Uair and Utilt or even Uthrow. Nair and Bair and Fair are all good to whack them with too if you want to position your juggles differently but that is more about preference/%/conditioning than perhaps actual "best" options at that point.


If you want more explanation you should answer some of the questions I asked first because I don't want you just doing what I do without knowing WHY at least haha.

 

[Coastward]

PP, just wanted to say thanks on the nerve handling tips. Really helped me out during a tourney I went to this past weekend.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You're welcome man, glad I could help =)

 

[Scidadle]

PP, just wanted to say thanks on the nerve handling tips. Really helped me out during a tourney I went to this past weekend.

Mind linking the post?

 

[noobird]

is it just me or is it like impossible/reallyhard to shield drop laser/shai drop laser? would it even be useful

 

[Bones0]

rofl you asked this in the falco thread.

the fact that you say you usually do something should be your starting point. why do you do that? what purpose does it serve? what is it beaten by?

once you know those things, your answers usually open up for you.

I like doing what you suggested as well as waiting on the ground(standing as well as DD'ing or WD'ing last second into a punish of some sort) combined with various movement(air, ground, platform) in between.

Floaties can't handle Uair and Utilt or even Uthrow. Nair and Bair and Fair are all good to whack them with too if you want to position your juggles differently but that is more about preference/%/conditioning than perhaps actual "best" options at that point.


If you want more explanation you should answer some of the questions I asked first because I don't want you just doing what I do without knowing WHY at least haha.

LOL whoops... Good advice though, thank you. I will definitely think about it some more.

is it just me or is it like impossible/reallyhard to shield drop laser/shai drop laser? would it even be useful

It's pretty hard because you drop I think 8-9 frames faster than a standard drop-through. It's definitely really useful though. I can do it pretty consistently on DL, and I can occasionally get it on BF (and of course FoD plats depending on their height). It's REALLY useful, and at the very least you should use them from the top plat of any stage. People love to camp under side plats when you're on the top plat, and they also love to act like you can drop through and dair them just so they can DD grab your landing aerial. Shai dropping through already catches them off guard, and then when they think they've escaped the range of your incoming dair, you laser instead and they're instantly mind****ed. I think I have a vid where I did it on a side plat of DL, but I don't remember what video. You can look through my vids if you really want to see it in action, but you can probably imagine how it would work.

Found one example of me using it from the top plat:
Bones (Falco) vs. DJ (Marth)

 

[noobird]

that was slick as f***. yeah i noticed that it's ridiculously hard on bf - i went into training and had to go to like 2/3 speed to even get it. went back to full speed and got it once. then i proceeded to do a little dance and turn off the cube to end on a good note . alright good to know it's actually humanly possible... shield dropping is broken

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up because I realized I don't use it much outside of friendlies. I need to just laser more in general, I think. I use to have super good lasers, and then my training partner (the Marth in that video actually) started PSing. -.-

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Yea PP is the perfect combination of a very intelligent falco who can space his lazers exceptionally well, combo 0-death, while maintaining that "in your face composure." Also, how can i practice landing on platforms with shines? I need to pressure shields more and i see all the falco's multishine when the opponent is just above them.

Good **** PP

 

[Bing]

How bad is it then when I'm comboing and I drill them down to the stage and go to follow up(So like Im pillaring) I always uptilt or pivot uptilt instead of shining?

 

[Xyzz]

Uptilt / shine is often interchangeable, and both are almost never wrong, but rather just "different", so I'd guess you're fine in terms of combos (edit: actually I think uptilt sends them too far a bit earlier than shine, so maybe you'll need to finish your combos a bit earlier than other people this way)...
But I think dair > uptilt on shield is punishable in between the dair and the uptilt, so if you're unsure whether you'll hit him or his shield, you imho definitely want to shine.

@Rocketpowerchill: I just did it a few times in training mode and then started using shine > waveland during my lvl1-4 cpu combo practicing once I was somewhat consistent with hitting the waveland from different shine heights. It's not really hard...
I'm kinda thinking of learning the shine just on the right height so I'll automatically land the next frame (this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrNHx2WKjho), so I can cancel my fulljump with shine>grab on the platform... shine > waveland > stuff isn't that much fun when your opponents are having fun punishing the waveland with shield drop up air ... stupid techskill monsters :x :D

 

[Bing]

On shield I shine, just for some reason I'm in the habit of up-tilting and I know its forcing me to end my combos early, I can just feel that I can get so much more out of it. Something to work on for sure.

 

[Bones0]

Yea PP is the perfect combination of a very intelligent falco who can space his lazers exceptionally well, combo 0-death, while maintaining that "in your face composure." Also, how can i practice landing on platforms with shines? I need to pressure shields more and i see all the falco's multishine when the opponent is just above them.

Good **** PP

Yo, where in MD are you at, bro? You should come to some tournaments.

If I am correct, you are referring to when Falco players jump into shine and then WL onto the plat and shine again. This has been a really common tactic for a while, but more recently players have begun counterattacking when you try to WL so it may not be that safe. If you do use it, just do your best to shine as close to the platform as possible so you have the smallest gap possible inbetween your two shines. Also keep in mind you don't have to shield pressure opponents who are above you all the time. Sometimes it's best just to uair to pressure them from below, or wait for their next move and hit them with Falco's great full hop.

@Rocketpowerchill: I just did it a few times in training mode and then started using shine > waveland during my lvl1-4 cpu combo practicing once I was somewhat consistent with hitting the waveland from different shine heights. It's not really hard...
I'm kinda thinking of learning the shine just on the right height so I'll automatically land the next frame (this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrNHx2WKjho), so I can cancel my fulljump with shine>grab on the platform... shine > waveland > stuff isn't that much fun when your opponents are having fun punishing the waveland with shield drop up air ... stupid techskill monsters :x :D

I don't think he was referring to platform cancels (or whatever you want to call them). Just basing that off his post count. lol As far as learning to platform cancel shines, I wouldn't bother. You'd have to be some sort of machine to do it consistently on your first try during a handjob or something.

 

[Xyzz]

I probably won't. Although it's just a consistent timing that's not influenced by anything but me... and I'm kinda good with those (I'm pretty consistent with double shine (I actually do aerial > shine > shine > aerial > shine > stuff )).
But yeah, that one is super tight and not that useful, since so few people even punish shine > waveland on shield when they're on a plat... :D

Actually, what do you guys do to pressure people on plats above you when they shield? Also I feel my play against people on plats could use some more variation in general instead of just jumping into them with a shine... so, if anyone feels like sharing a few things he does, I'd be super interested in reading those
(I always want to look at that specifically when watching Peepee / Mango videos, but I keep forgetting :x)

 

[Bing]

I'm really bad in situations like that, normally I just dash dancing underneath them, waiting for their shield to shrink, then I SH Uair aiming for a shield Poke. But like I said. Im bad.