PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bing]

Just a quick questions about how effective jabs are for leading into smash attacks. I' ve been cornering my opponent near the ledge then poking with jabs and once one connects I immediately downsmash. Now this has wiffed once but they were at a really high percentage. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's a good idea but not reliable vs some CC-spammers like Peach or Samus and how you set up the jab has to try to keep the opponent DI'ing in.

 

[Meneks]

I found a fun problem why I have trouble getting grounded shine OOS (I'm pretty consistent with double shine stuff)...
I shield with the right trigger and change my hand-position on the controller a little when pressing the tigger, which causes me to either go too slow or hit the 'a'-button on the way to 'b' (JC grab oos = best move!).
Well, I wanted to get comfortable with shielding with the L trigger anyways for a variety of reasons, so I guess here's one more to actually start working on that ...

Reading this just made me think of using L to shield

Because of my hand adjustment I think I'd probably be able to hit grounded multi shines a lot easier lmao

 

[ruhtraeel]

nvm ignore this post I know what I do wrong

 

[Bing]

It's a good idea but not reliable vs some CC-spammers like Peach or Samus and how you set up the jab has to try to keep the opponent DI'ing in.

Hmm okay, I mostly play against Foxes so I suppose that'll do. I'll keep that in mind though for floaties and such. Thanks.

Also just another quick question, when the opponent is shielding on a platform(Like Yoshi's, PS, Battlefield) I've been SH uairing to try and get a shield poke. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Tee ay eye]

merry christmas, falco boards:

 

[Life]

dumb question, who is that

 

[Tee ay eye]

SeAN FORWARD B!!!!!

 

[Life]

Ah, thanks.

 

[Bing]

Oh good I was right. I thought Forward's name was Sean... thats legit though, one of the main people who made me want to use Flacco.

 

[Bones0]

Is he seriously coming back? It's my dream to play Forward one day.

 

[Xyzz]

It's my dream to play like Forward one day.

:D

 

[Onomanic]

My friend needs help with shine set ups. He keeps getting grabbed on his dairs. pls help dis noob

 

[Bones0]

Dair later.

 

[Bing]

Dairing less in general could also help to setup shine combos. Weon-X once told me that lots of players wait for the dair so they can punish it, especially on lower level players who's shield pressure games aren't the greatest/developed.

 

[Ziodyne]

merry christmas, falco boards:

:OO

as a long time forward fanboy, this cannot have been a better day for me

 

[Divinokage]

Wow return of Forward too! Old school is picking back up!! ****ing Hype!

 

[Deleted member]

sean is the homie. i'd like to see him back on the EC for sure.

 

[SK919]

This is something I wrote in my notes double check my understanding

After a laser hits inside of fsmash range, inside not tipper; don't get it confused. If its tipper range avoid it and fire a laser at a random height, go for a trick, dash dance.. Just remember to mix it up. You want to avoid trade laser tipper. theoreticly if the laser stuns you for x amount of frames then you should be able to interrupt all of marths grounded options. Currently I believe these are the only true options in this position are roll, shield or dash back.*

Is this accurate?

 

[Bones0]

This is something I wrote in my notes double check my understanding

After a laser hits inside of fsmash range, inside not tipper; don't get it confused. If its tipper range avoid it and fire a laser at a random height, go for a trick, dash dance.. Just remember to mix it up. You want to avoid trade laser tipper. theoreticly if the laser stuns you for x amount of frames then you should be able to interrupt all of marths grounded options. Currently I believe these are the only true options in this position are roll, shield or dash back.*

Is this accurate?

I had a bit of trouble understanding what you meant in most of it, so if I say something that you weren't talking about then nvm. You shouldn't be starting lasers within Marth's fsmash range. If you want to laser, you need to either be outside of his range the whole time, or you need to have the laser coming out as you land within his range. You can cheat a little further towards him if he's shielding or facing the other way. As far as being able to capitalize off of lasers that hit, I would just recommend getting used to how much stun it has. If you have a Marth player you can practice with, ask him to spam utilt immediately after laser stun. If you're too slow he will intercept your approach (and if he was able to utilt, he could have also pivot grabbed or countered or done a bunch of other stuff to you). I like to grab whenever I'm just on the border of being able to link from lasers into moves. Most players just buffer shield after lasers hit them because if they try to move out of your way and can't move fast enough, they're gonna eat your approach (which will probably be a dair/nair-shine that leads into solid damage).

 

[linkoninja]

So... I found out there's a small Melee scene at my school so I decided to start playing Melee again after a year. I mainly just want to have fun, not looking to be super pro or anything but there are a few tricks that I want to learn that I never did.

So my question is, how exactly do you wave-shine? When I ask this I mean what is the order of button inputs that you guys press?
Also, I'm having trouble short-hopping after I use the Shine, any tips on how to do this? I'm pressing the X button in the same exact way as regular short hops, but for some reason after a shine it just wont short hop I always get full hops.

Lastly, do you shine grab by doing this:
Shine to JC grab, meaning
down b to jump + grab button as if you were doing a regular JC grab?

Oh and is Falco's Wave-shine timing different than Fox's?

 

[Xyzz]

wave shine: pretty easy... just do a shine before inputting the wavedash motion :D So that's down + b > x / y > airdodge mostly sideways but slightly down
getting accidental full jumps after shines: No real reason to do that, just try to let go of the jump button as fast as possible (maybe try to hit something real fast afterwards... dunno that kinda helped me getting more consistent at short hops lol)
shine grabs: I'd recommend using constrolstick up + z for jc grabs... At least for me that allows me to keep my hand in the position that feels natural... if I tried to claw x + z or sth. that would force me to move... other than that: yeah, just shine and then cancel a jump out of it with a grab

edit: yeah, falco has a different waveshine timing than fox, because he has two additional frames of jump squat (the time a character ducks and doesn't really jump yet (that's the time you need to let go of the jump button in, in order to get a short hop btw)) (and more hitstun on his shine if he connects with it)

 

[linkoninja]

Thanks that post really helped

so does that mean you have to let go of the jump button faster with Falco to get a short hop?
What do you mean hit something else though>?

Oh and how does JC shine on hit work?
Cause sometimes I hit a shine and stay stuck in shine when I hit the opponent
this tends to happen a lot more with Falco than Fox, does it have to do with his extra jump squat frames?

 

[Xyzz]

Falco has more time to let go of the jump button. If you let go of the jump button before you're airbone you'll get a short hop, so the longer the jump squat of the char, the more frames you have to do that.
The hit something else part is probably just me... I'm a lot faster if I try to hit a different button as soon as possible than just letting go of the jump button.
The getting stuck in shine more with Falco than Fox is probably related to falco shine dealing more percent to the opponent than the fox version (8 instead of 5 unstaled) and therefore having more hitstun. Just practice dealing with the hit stun, and always assume you hit imho... If you whiff, I think it's not that bad to stay in shine for a few frames more, since it usually won't make a difference between getting punished or not... but if you get stuck in shine on hit you might drop a combo (or get stuck in shield pressure which is a super free punish for your opponent).

 

[Bones0]

You're getting stuck in shine because you're inputting the jump during hitlag. Go into training mode and Falcon Punch an invincible CPU (just give them a Starman). You can see very distinctly when both characters freeze, and that is hitlag. You've also probably noticed it if you've been hit by Samus's charge shot.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What bones said. If you practice waveshine comboing Fox across FD a couple hundred times you should develop the muscle memory to not get stuck in shine.

 

[linkoninja]

Thanks for the clarification guys, I had a feeling it had to do with hit-lag I just wasn't sure.

So I learned how to Shine-Grab, thanks for the tip on using the control stick and I was wondering how useful is it?
What are the setups/applications for it?

 

[Xyzz]

Watch peepee, he does it a lot and uses it really well imho.
In general you can use it whenever you're content with getting a grab on your opponent, but would rather go for the safer route of doing aerial > shine > grab instead of a JC grab

 

[Bones0]

What can I do to deal with stomp OoS? I lost a set yesterday because I kept aerial shining and getting stomped OoS. I tried mixing in holding shield and utilts, but it still happened... They were SHed and faded away from me if that matters.

 

[Vixen]

do a second aerial. it seems like it would be too slow but its not.

thats why you see foxes nair over and over without shine if they're behind falcon, or if they space well enough not to be grabbed. low nair > rising nair, or dair > bair/nair, etc is how you beat falcon.

what i do is i go in with aerial > shine and memorize what option he uses. if its a stomp oos falcon, i'll start going for the second aerial. once they're conditioned to hold dat, or roll away, you switch it up.

 

[Dr Peepee]

bones:

delay the aerial more and closer so the shine will hit them before/as they come OOS. you could also double aerial but that doesn't usually work in my experience.

I'll shine grab Falcon sometimes just to keep him from using that option later on since it's aggravating. Another way to deal with this is to just poke at Falcon's shield then hit him when he moves.

The goal is to keep Falcon in shield and in a bad position without you risking getting stomped OOS because there's no point taking that risk. Falcon's in lolshield.

 

[Voltz]

Wooo! The Ravens took Super Bowl 47!

 

[Bones0]

do a second aerial. it seems like it would be too slow but its not.

thats why you see foxes nair over and over without shine if they're behind falcon, or if they space well enough not to be grabbed. low nair > rising nair, or dair > bair/nair, etc is how you beat falcon.

what i do is i go in with aerial > shine and memorize what option he uses. if its a stomp oos falcon, i'll start going for the second aerial. once they're conditioned to hold dat, or roll away, you switch it up.

Thanks, I will give this a try.

bones:

delay the aerial more and closer so the shine will hit them before/as they come OOS. you could also double aerial but that doesn't usually work in my experience.

I'll shine grab Falcon sometimes just to keep him from using that option later on since it's aggravating. Another way to deal with this is to just poke at Falcon's shield then hit him when he moves.

The goal is to keep Falcon in shield and in a bad position without you risking getting stomped OOS because there's no point taking that risk. Falcon's in lolshield.

I think my shine was usually hitting his shield, but he was jumping out afterwards. I guess I'll just try to hitconfirm shines and grab if he shielded it. I just hate grabbing Falcon because he's such a fatty. Do you just fthrow him off stage or uthrow in the middle of the stage? What do you like to do to followup, or do you just throw him into bad positions and continue zoning for a solid first hit? I think I shinegrabbed like twice the whole set, and I just stopped because I couldn't capitalize off of the throws at all.

Also, I just thought about it now, but what do you think about mixing in waveshines away, so you are basically backing off and reapproaching as he lands from the stomp? In hindsight it seems like I kept getting hit because I was trying to late aerial after the initial aerial-shine, and I also used dair most of the time. Do you know if doing an immediate fade away nair after shining his shield will hit most stomp OoS attempts? Also, do you have any thoughts on utilting when you land behind him? I used it a little and it seemed to work, but if they just hold shield bad stuff happens (bair OoS if I'm at a high %, WD OoS into Raptor Boost or some other approach).

 

[Dr Peepee]

waveshining away is solid, as is SH'ing and reacting with Nair/Bair since your moves are faster. As long as you get the shine on the shield you're in good shape lol.

 

[Bones0]

Okay, thanks.

 

[Vixen]

if you aerial > shine, then he stomps oos it will beat your aerial, so WD away. again, like i said, if you're sure he's going to try to stomp oos just do a second aerial. in my experience, doing what PP suggests gets me punished vs the az falcons.

 

[Bones0]

Aerial to aerial is way too risky if you're landing in front of him though. He can just shield grab. Plus, I'm pretty sure a FH stomp would beat out aerial to aerial. Not saying I won't use it, but I tried it a little and it just seemed inconsistent. I could only use it when I cross them up, and it often results in trades (which are always awful for Falco) or Falcon's move just straight up out-prioritize mine.

 

[oukd]

crossup late nair to utilt

 

[Vixen]

the utilt gets beat by dair.

bones, it's a 50/50 i already covered that.

 

[oukd]

wait does it really? gross

edit - lol i totally didnt read all of bones' post