PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

The MeleePacWest stream didn't even go to the end of the tourney, and there have only been like 4 vids uploaded unless I'm missing something. :/

 

[FoxLisk]

you guys i watch mango vids and he's just like casually jumping around and doing nothing special and then everyone dies brutally... why is he so much better than me that i can't even understand most of what he's doing right

 

[unknown522]

His spatial perception is amazing and he is really good at anticipating thing. If thing don't work out the way he wants to, he also knows how to cover them most of the time.

Pretty broad, general things. But I'm not him and I can't really speak for him

 

[Bones0]

It really is insane how you can watch a player play for literally two or three seconds and immediately KNOW if they're a top player just from details in their movement.

 

[Druggedfox]

you guys i watch mango vids and he's just like casually jumping around and doing nothing special and then everyone dies brutally... why is he so much better than me that i can't even understand most of what he's doing right

I could talk about this, but it'd probably easier to ask you if you want to just take a random mango video (where he's actually trying) and we can just go through the stuff he's doing in that. If you don't want to then:

Mango actually thinks when he plays. I know this sounds silly, but the vast vast majority of players don't *really* think game by game. Mango actually pays attention and chooses his moves accordingly. A lot of his stuff seems like running around, but when you actually can anticipate where your opponent wants to go you can kinda get away with "running at them" if you're actually aiming for them. That's a big thing actually... when most people try to casually run at somebody, they're usually missing >_>

A lot of his running at them is also a lot more like following/stalking them. Because they're trying to get away, generally they're not in as good of a position to punish his approaches. I think he takes advantage of that really welll.

Watch mango's understanding of stage control; not only does he force good positioning for himself constantly, but he also understands how his opponent reacts based on their location. Something as simple as if the opponent has stage control, they'll probably want to go for something on the safer side which goes more for walling mango out. On the other hand, if his opponent is cornered, he might look for them to try to escape by jumping out.

I mean, there's honestly a million things that make him so good, and other people do these things too. I just named a few things that came to mind that mango's good at though.

 

[Strong Badam]

It really is insane how you can watch a player play for literally two or three seconds and immediately KNOW if they're a top player just from details in their movement.

you can tell someone's ability in general (not entirely accurate) by this. sometimes i know if i'm going to win a game within the first 5 seconds if i care.

 

[Meneks]

Is there a certain specific way to waveshine on platforms perfectly?

 

[leelue]

I didn't read your post. it probably talked about strategy or other garbage. w/e.

I think falco is just a fox that can't run fast or kill people or recover and you get lasers (aka nothing).

team with the characters you would always team with, basically fox jigglypuff peach sheik falcon. tell them that you're sorry for playing falco when you could have played fox, and that they'll have to compensate for how terrible you are.

go to stages that would be good for fox and fox/jigglypuff/peach/sheik/falcon.

your primary strategy is to dair and bair a lot. if you think your opponent sucks, fsmash is good too. in the 5 minutes every match that you wish you were fox, you can cry tears of sorrow and regret for not picking fox. make sure your teammate berates you heavily.

when you get shine spiked or gimped or something and you think "well it's okay cause fox would have died there too" realize that you're wrong because you could have killed them already and you wouldn't be in this situation.

when your teammate gets ***** horribly, make sure you blame him for not making you play fox instead where you would have had the speed to save him. it's not even like fox is harder to play, he's just straight better/easier lol

this topic is stupid. just play fox.




yeah whatever you_other_fox_player lol get real

This post is too funny

 

[Bones0]

Is there a certain specific way to waveshine on platforms perfectly?

Are you falling through when you shine? Just don't press down all the way.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@AA:

I was referring to the Bairs/uptilts mostly, but also whenever Marth is in the air you should just intercept him instead of wait for him because his moves are slower and he has to predict what you're doing as a result.


A good range vs Marth varies based on how he handles your lasers. If he takes them then you need to be wary of him swinging at you on the ground and should then space outside of Ftilt range. If he shields, then you can afford to get closer and DD around him or whatever. Making Marth shield means he is respecting your aerial/laser approaches and feels locked down(or he wants to bait you I guess lol). Understand that Marth has a hard time getting a move out on reaction to your aerial approaches and you can begin staying around Marth's Ftilt range and making Marth afraid to Fair at you, but also afraid to run backward since you have lasers and quick aerials keeping him locked down.

*Most Marths won't try to Ftilt, so if you just stay out of Fair OOS range or just within it then you'll normally be fine. The most important thing to recognize with spacing games is where you're at advantage. You're at advantage when you can Nair at Marth and he can't react to you easily, which means he is probably shielding or you came in with lasers and have control of the pace of the exchange, which is how you keep Marth from pulling you into him or suddenly catching you waiting for him.*


Other Marths like to swing more than M2K, so wait for the swing and then attack. Or, they like to get in close/spam PS and try to catch you offguard. Either intercept them before they get to you or disrupt their PS timing so that they get stuck and you may take space/pressure freely.


Combos:

1:03 you did a shine when most people would DI that way so they wouldn't get knocked offstage. Uptilt is actually better there haha.

1:30- Dair him into the platform. Tech chase Dsmash/Fsmash/uptilt/Dair/shine into more things lol.

1:39- Maybe shine again, but either way Dair for the same reason as last time is still better than Bair

Bair only at higher percents when it sets up an easyish edgeguard or it will outright kill OR someone is holding out to edgecancel a Dair or something like that.


The big thing about keeping Marth up was related to the combo you ended at 2:30. If you had just Nair'd/fair'd, then you would have had Marth with more damage above you and you would be below him, able to work your Bairs/uptilts well.


WD directly after lasering, dash then WD, double WD, double dash then WD, just try different stuff lol. It feels too rigid at the moment. Personally I'd recommend WD'ing directly after lasering going into Marth, just to get used to going inside his big range and messing with it. From there you can get a lot of ideas.


@zhu thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmWkJBnVphU

I don't remember how to timestamp, but at 15:15, Zhu works his Bair as M2K is above him, then proceeds to do the edgeguard I'm talking about.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Oooooohh my God thanks for all the tips =D
I'll try to keep all of them in mind this week-end and try to test everything I can

@ 1.30 and 1.39 yeah, those Bairs were hard reads because I thought it was kinda obvious I could have shined/Daired there, so I predicted the DI away lol x)

About WDs... duh ;_; Everytime I WD with Falco I feel like I'm committing way too hard to something laggy. I don't have this feeling when I'm using faster characters like Fox or Marth, but Falco's WD seems soooo slow and I can't do it on reaction (I mean like following a tech with a WD OOS), so if I commit to WD'ing towards Marth and he grabs/Fairs OOS me randomly I get ***** for it x( [Edit: do you think you can provide a few examples from your/Mango's/Zhu's matches vs. M2K? I don't recall seeing much WD'ing but I might be wrong and seeing a few examples could help me understand what you mean lol :x]
But I think I got what you mean. Aldwyn recommended me to be a bit more aggressive and stay closer to Marth to cut off his options. He said I shouldn't be scared of staying on top of him and once I got the pressure on the only thing I have to worry about is basically his grab, because Falco can easily CC most of Marth's moveset lol

Huuhh that stuff. I had already thought about it some time ago but I felt like it was a huge commitment because once you're up there and you're out of jumps there's nothing much you can do if Marth gets on the stage. Perhaps I was doing it wrong and I wasn't reacting fast or spacing well enough, I don't know. I'll give it another try, thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

You have to make him want to DI away first, which is not the first thing people want to do vs Falco lol.

About WD'ing, Marth usually won't grab it if you do them correctly. He'll usually Fair. I just urge you to try it when you would normally kind of run around and see what your options are like. WD into shield if you need to, but just take a look at how the game changes when you WD into Marth at the right time.

Mango and maybe Shiz do some good WDs that are recorded, but I don't think either of them do it into Marth at neutral like I'm talking about. Axe does it vs Marth(with Falco anyway), but I'm not sure if he has anything recent vs Marth where he's doing it or not. It may not even be recorded anywhere yet lol.

And yeah, once you get momentum you don't need to fear much of Marth's stuff because you will be pressuring him hard into making a big swing mistake or a scared grab and can be easily punished either way.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Lol perhaps I found a good example of it in a different MU x)
I was searching for Mango vs. M2K vids and I noticed this vid that I had not watched before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdSV9FXZE7w @ 1.58

Like this? I'll give it a try, thanks =D

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well that's more of when you have an even bigger advantage than just some momentum at neutral, but it's certainly the right idea yeah haha.

 

[Bones0]

If you want to get used to WDing vs. Marth, space a bair or something just out of his range, and when SHs to fair or nair, WD into him (with your back to him still) and utilt. I WD into Marth with utilt ALL the time, and it's incredible. If he's not aerial atm, I will also WD into a shine and initiate shield pressure (double shining makes this a lot easier though), and I've even done stuff like WD in facing away, shine, then fade away nair. It's really trippy looking and they'll grab almost every time. Just make sure you don't WD too far into him or else Marth can grab your fade away unless it's perfect. If his shield is low you could also just shine fade away bair to go for the shield poke while still staying safe from his grab.

Oh, and I prefer WDing in backwards because:
1. Shine has more range in the back, so you don't have to be as close when you initiate the WD and are able to fade away/get out better
2. Bair > fair, both in terms of hitboxes as well as follow ups
3. Utilt obviously covers his back better than his front

 

[Kai0]

Does Falco's backair auto cancel?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yep

 

[Vaccine]

can i please get some advice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GYm5cyrXJE&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLN9TcXwv1nutSvMbnZGorwA

alright i think i fixed it

 

[Bones0]

Fix the URL. You can't include more than the regular 11 digit ID after "v=" because it's too long.

 

[Rubyiris]

How do you guys maintain your composure out of state? Vs crowds cheering against you?

 

[unknown522]

I usually laugh at them.

But yeah, I think it's just something you get used to. I've always been cheered against even locally for like 7 years, so I've always been used to it.

Then if we go further back, sports an other games. Same thing

 

[AvengerAngel]

If you want to get used to WDing vs. Marth, space a bair or something just out of his range, and when SHs to fair or nair, WD into him (with your back to him still) and utilt. I WD into Marth with utilt ALL the time, and it's incredible. If he's not aerial atm, I will also WD into a shine and initiate shield pressure (double shining makes this a lot easier though), and I've even done stuff like WD in facing away, shine, then fade away nair. It's really trippy looking and they'll grab almost every time. Just make sure you don't WD too far into him or else Marth can grab your fade away unless it's perfect. If his shield is low you could also just shine fade away bair to go for the shield poke while still staying safe from his grab.

Oh, and I prefer WDing in backwards because:
1. Shine has more range in the back, so you don't have to be as close when you initiate the WD and are able to fade away/get out better
2. Bair > fair, both in terms of hitboxes as well as follow ups
3. Utilt obviously covers his back better than his front

Nice post =D
About the AC Bair thing I'm not totally sure about it, because Marth's also love to punish those with well-timed grabs (i.e. waiting for you to commit to something else like an Utilt and then exploiting its lag), dtilts or even dash attacks or Fsmashes. Recently spacing AC Bairs it's been like playing russian roulette in this MU lol
But I got what you mean, thanks. I'll try to space with more WDs and test utilts/shine/grabs or even ftilts. Can Marth punish a well-spaced ftilt on reaction? Like shield grabbing it if he's shielding or Fairing OOS D:

 

[Izek]

hey pp. I got question going back to your apex 2012 set with Armada. What level did you ban against him? what he ban against you? and is FD really a bad stage for falco vs peach?

 

[Dr Peepee]

can i please get some advice? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GYm5cyrXJE&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLN9TcXwv1nutSvMbnZGorwA

alright i think i fixed it

Try to avoid Bair'ing in combos unless the opponent's % is higher or they are going to DI in to set up for another hit in the combo.

React to platform techs with jumping shines or wavelands during their tech and Dair'ing them.

Understand what you are trying to do with shield pressure. You want to force a reaction or take advantage of the opponent being stuck and grabbing/hitting them anyway. When you Nair shine nair and the opponent whiffs a shield grab, you need to be ready to punish that.

You need more solid movement in general. It looks like you getting stuck is your biggest problem to me. That and maybe some tech skill things.

You get stuck in your shield too much as well. Be sure you're actively watching your opponent when he begins to pressure you so you can find the holes to attack/WD/roll/jump out during.

Every time you get stuck at the edge you FH FF a Dair usually. You need to change up your actions when pinned in order to be less predictable/controlled.

How do you guys maintain your composure out of state? Vs crowds cheering against you?

Understand they are just rooting for their favorites and really mean no disrespect towards you. Then, once you aren't taking it personally, it's much easier to go back and focus on your gameplan to win. Focusing on the game and how you need to be playing is the best and really only way imo to drown out your focus on the crowd.

hey pp. I got question going back to your apex 2012 set with Armada. What level did you ban against him? what he ban against you? and is FD really a bad stage for falco vs peach?

We couldn't ban in that ruleset, but I would've banned FD and Armada would've banned BF if we could have banned.

FD is pretty bad LOL. CGs and no escapes during pressure and juggle traps make Peach's already-powerful punishes on Falco more guaranteed and easier. Falco can also combo Peach in different solid ways there, but I feel it's not even really a buff for his combo potential. Falco also can't retreat to a platform if Peach achieves the proper float height to avoid his lasers and will probably wind up getting cornered more often. Peach never uses platforms anyway so that doesn't hurt her. Falco also can't recover onto platforms so he loses recovery mixups, while Peach only recovers onto the stage or the edge anyway.

So yeah it sucks. It's probably doable, but it sucks lol.

 

[Bones0]

Nice post =D
About the AC Bair thing I'm not totally sure about it, because Marth's also love to punish those with well-timed grabs (i.e. waiting for you to commit to something else like an Utilt and then exploiting its lag), dtilts or even dash attacks or Fsmashes. Recently spacing AC Bairs it's been like playing russian roulette in this MU lol
But I got what you mean, thanks. I'll try to space with more WDs and test utilts/shine/grabs or even ftilts. Can Marth punish a well-spaced ftilt on reaction? Like shield grabbing it if he's shielding or Fairing OOS D:

Well when I typed that I was thinking about Marth in shield. Aside from that, I totally agree that it's like Russian Roulette vs. Marth. I really try not to leave the ground at all unless it will lead to a guaranteed aerial hit on him/his shield or if I'm lasering outside of fsmash range.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Bones, did you test Falco's Nair vs Marth's Nair the other day?

 

[Bones0]

Oh yeah. From what I can tell, it generally serves as a substitute for WDing back. WDing back is really safe, but it also gives up a lot of space, and Falco players know to watch for it a lot. As a result, if Falco ends up DDing as a fake approach to bait a WD back (or lasering in anticipation of one), Marth loses a huge amount of stage, and he feels further pressured the closer he is to the ledge. Anyway, instead of WDing back, Marth can throw out a nair (preferably ACed). If Falco just ended up DDing to bait a reaction, Marth may clip him with it anyway, and he doesn't lose any space. Falco also isn't really able to run in to capitalize on AC nairs because of the threat of an immediate utilt afterwards (it pulls spacies right off stage for an easy off stage FH dair unless you get the DI towards him in time, which SUCKS to get hit by as you probably know).

If Falco DOES commit to a SHFFL, Marth's nair just hits it first, and the situation is reversed completely. That is, of course, assuming the nair is timed right. If Falco can predict the right time Marth will throw out a preemptive move (mostly based on how scared he is/patterns based on previous approaches), he can wait and SHFFL a nair as they come down, but it's really hard to time because of how nair's hitbox is angled in front of Marth, and because AC nairs end so quickly. I remember seeing M2K do it a lot to players. He would do an AC nair just in the middle of nowhere, and then as they SHFFL at him to punish he's already out of lag and they get DD grabbed.

 

[Dr Peepee]

As long as it can usually beat Nair head to head then I can get started working on that. Thanks for all of the information man, I really appreciate it. =)

 

[Deleted member]

i keep thinking that there might be something good in this thread whenever i open it, but there's just not. sad forever.

and then i try to catch you on aim, which apparently you gave up on using.

and i'm too lazy to text you.

we should go back to talking about **** that you don't know or aren't good at yet, not technical details of MUs that you crush anyway.

every falco forever should autoban FD against armada. that matchup is a great example of why stage bans exist lol

edit: i'm with ryan. whenever i used to go to nationals, people would cheer for me often. but in my state, i was always cheered against. maybe it's just some people.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah I haven't given up on aim I just sign on at weird times lol.

There were no bans at Apex and maybe no more in the current ruleset in BO5s. Falco FD will be happening a lot more often lol.

Or I go Marth, who knows

 

[Deleted member]

Nah I haven't given up on aim I just sign on at weird times lol.

There were no bans at Apex and maybe no more in the current ruleset in BO5s. Falco FD will be happening a lot more often lol.

Or I go Marth, who knows

or we could have you unleash the greatest of plans. i know you have pride but one day you should ignore it and 3 stock everyone. i know that the dark forbidden arts call to you when you're thinking alone.

 

[unknown522]

Nah I haven't given up on aim I just sign on at weird times lol.

There were no bans at Apex and maybe no more in the current ruleset in BO5s. Falco FD will be happening a lot more often lol.

Or I go Marth, who knows

I would go sheik on FD vs sheik. But your marth is really legit

 

[Dr Peepee]

or we could have you unleash the greatest of plans. i know you have pride but one day you should ignore it and 3 stock everyone. i know that the dark forbidden arts call to you when you're thinking alone.

LOL I'll admit sometimes once in a while I think about it. =p

I would go sheik on FD vs sheik. But your marth is really legit

Oh I don't mind Sheik on FD(she loses platform shenanigans which seems fine to me and I can combo her pretty well there still imo), it's mostly Marth/Peach/ICs/Mario(s) Bros I guess, but mainly the first two.

And you'd do Sheik dittos on FD over Fox/Sheik on FD? I didn't think the matchup was even bad there, but I do imagine you'd lose some edgecancel opportunities from throws so you may get hit harder.

 

[Rubyiris]

I see nothing wrong with the falco thread. You're silly, umbreon.

 

[Deleted member]

i think FD changes a lot of MUs. for example, i think marth vs sheik on FD is pretty even, but that sheik should win otherwise.

 

[stingers]

< Xenosaga ^

 

[knightpraetor]

i agree with umbreon...I think FD is marth's best stage vs sheik

 

[Rubyiris]

I've been playing for 7 years and locals still make me nervous :/

 

[Bones0]

LOL I'll admit sometimes once in a while I think about it. =p

OMG... PP is going to go YL vs. Armada... @_@

 

[Deleted member]

OMG... PP is going to go YL vs. Armada... @_@

it's an inside joke, it's okay if you don't understand it.