PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Brookman]

MOW MY ***** I MISS CHATTING WITH YOU in all caps cause YOU KNOW HOW I DO THIS ****

So I was playing a bracket match of rby OU and this dude brings out slowbro. i switch to golem on his amnesia cause I'm pro sand then blow up on it. I lose this match to frz and other hax but in g2 I throw LS + IB on starmie to frz chan/bro and then when he brings out bro he goes reflect + psychic WTF I HAD NO IDEA. 3 pokemon later I have killed the dam beast and then bring out tauros BLIZ + frz his lax, win the tauros ditto and then Die to his fresh zam. ***

 

[Druggedfox]

M2k's AC nair to bait a shffl aerial only works on people who don't know the spacings though -.-

It's not actually a good trick for the matchup, it's just a good trick to catch people who are clearly *less* familiar with the matchup.

If you're gonna use marth's nair at all in that matchup (assuming falco is playing the matchup correctly) it'll probably be more proactively/aggressively than anything. Most of the other uses aren't particularly good if the falco plays it right >_>

 

[Bones0]

Well it's not a nair, but M2K does the same sorta thing with a fair twice in a row within like 10 seconds vs. PP.

Though I agree Marth's nair is much more useful for chasing in the matchup, but PP was asking specifically about nair vs. nair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I just kept losing to Nair even if I knew he'd pretty much do it, so I wanted to know if Marth's would beat Falco's outright.

Certainly not something to be spammed, but it helps.

 

[unknown522]

LOL I'll admit sometimes once in a while I think about it. =p



Oh I don't mind Sheik on FD(she loses platform shenanigans which seems fine to me and I can combo her pretty well there still imo), it's mostly Marth/Peach/ICs/Mario(s) Bros I guess, but mainly the first two.

And you'd do Sheik dittos on FD over Fox/Sheik on FD? I didn't think the matchup was even bad there, but I do imagine you'd lose some edgecancel opportunities from throws so you may get hit harder.

Wow I messed up typing. I meant go sheik vs peach. I'd definitely stay fox vs sheik on FD, cuz almost every sheik is bad on that level (FoD too).

Also Marths n-air will beat falco's assuming they do it properly. You can sometimes sneak moves under marth's n-air if they're not spaced properly (or approach with it.......).

A lot of times though you can f-tilt under a marth's LH n-air. Or even in between the hits.

Edit: also umbreon is right about FD being marth's best level vs sheik. I dunno about even, but I think it's pretty close there. Sheik has some serious issues getting down vs marth. Especially without platforms

 

[Beat!]

Marth's kinda good on FD.

 

[Druggedfox]

Oh alright then.

Idk everytime I see marth's nair I just think of it as the move we all wish was good but isn't lmao

 

[Bones0]

I might be a nair addict, so my judgement is probably compromised.

 

[Rubyiris]

I try to nair as little as possible. Most of the time I do it out of compulsion without any real thought. When I'm making 100% conscious judgment, I tend to stay grounded more often. This transfers over to Falco.

When I play a ground-based Falco, I like to joke around and call it "Samusko." as I tend to laser/ftilt/jab cancel/dsmash a ****ton when I'm focusing on controlling space horizontally.

 

[unknown522]

Falco's n-air all day! I use it about as much as d-air.

 

[Vaccine]

Try to avoid Bair'ing in combos unless the opponent's % is higher or they are going to DI in to set up for another hit in the combo.

React to platform techs with jumping shines or wavelands during their tech and Dair'ing them.

Understand what you are trying to do with shield pressure. You want to force a reaction or take advantage of the opponent being stuck and grabbing/hitting them anyway. When you Nair shine nair and the opponent whiffs a shield grab, you need to be ready to punish that.

You need more solid movement in general. It looks like you getting stuck is your biggest problem to me. That and maybe some tech skill things.

You get stuck in your shield too much as well. Be sure you're actively watching your opponent when he begins to pressure you so you can find the holes to attack/WD/roll/jump out during.

Every time you get stuck at the edge you FH FF a Dair usually. You need to change up your actions when pinned in order to be less predictable/controlled.

thanks for the advice. when pressuring a falcos shield is it ever a good idea to shine their shield and then do a sh fadeaway laser?

 

[Mogwai]

Yeah I just kept losing to Nair even if I knew he'd pretty much do it, so I wanted to know if Marth's would beat Falco's outright.

Certainly not something to be spammed, but it helps.

Marth nair just has a really convenient hitbox vs. Falco's nair. I was playing Husband at Pakman's house awhile back and he just kept calling my approaches with sh nair and I felt like a derp all night but it does seem to beat out Falco's nair unless it's horribly mistimed.

 

[Bones0]

thanks for the advice. when pressuring a falcos shield is it ever a good idea to shine their shield and then do a sh fadeaway laser?

No. You can't really do anything other than immediate aerial out of shines unless you have them super conditioned to it, in which case you should be doing another aerial. A laser is just a waste. If you want to grab them, then learn to shine grab. Lasering when they roll or WD OoS can be good though I guess. Just seems really risky.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Mixing in lasers during shield pressure is good once in a while if you want to catch them in a roll. Fading away with the laser would have a similar purpose

 

[Bones0]

I mean I use lasers in shield pressure ALL the time vs. Marth, but I feel like in Falco dittos you would just get shined or usmashed OoS constantly for trying it. Huge risk for the only benefit being able to continue shield pressures out of rolls, which you can sort of already do by just SHFFLing instead of lasering into a SHFFL.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why would a falco usmash OoS in the ditto? The fade back covers shine OoS. Seems like a solid mixup

 

[Bones0]

Mew2King said like 10 times to usmash OoS... This is the last time I will ever comment on anything other than the Marth matchup. >_____>

 

[unknown522]

*****es don't know about n-air oos in falco dittos

 

[Bones0]

I use nair OoS. It's kinda frustrating because it always seems to trade, but it's usually better than the alternative.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Why would a falco usmash OoS in the ditto? The fade back covers shine OoS. Seems like a solid mixup

Upsmash OOS is fast, strong, long-ranged, and sets up combos at %s past 40 I imagine. It's pretty good if anyone is lasering too close or doing delayed aerials after shines, or falling from above and in front(trading can be pretty good with this move too depending on %s of both Falcos).



Edit: And Nair OOS in dittos? When would that be good?

 

[Sinji]

I bair oos in dittos mainly because of its priority. whether you get a weak hit to open up a tech chase or a full hit.

 

[Bones0]

I nair OoS after the shine, the same way Sheik players do.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Isn't Falco's Nair OOS a couple/few frames slower though?

Maybe it doesn't matter but I'm curious.

 

[Bones0]

Sheik's jump is 2 frames faster. Falco's nair hits on frame 4, Sheik's hits on frame 3.

Sheik's nair comes out 3 frames sooner.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hm, good to know. Thanks for the information Bones. =)

 

[unknown522]

I only really nair oos when the opponent is trying to space on the shield. That, or if they do a super high n-air on it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

And you go into them with it? Or it catches them immediately?

What kinds of spaced things does this Nair OOS beat? Anything besides spaced Bair/Uptilt?

 

[crush]

MOW MY ***** I MISS CHATTING WITH YOU in all caps cause YOU KNOW HOW I DO THIS ****

So I was playing a bracket match of rby OU and this dude brings out slowbro. i switch to golem on his amnesia cause I'm pro sand then blow up on it. I lose this match to frz and other hax but in g2 I throw LS + IB on starmie to frz chan/bro and then when he brings out bro he goes reflect + psychic WTF I HAD NO IDEA. 3 pokemon later I have killed the dam beast and then bring out tauros BLIZ + frz his lax, win the tauros ditto and then Die to his fresh zam. ***

? Why does tauros have blizzard? and doesnt lax have thick fat?

 

[unknown522]

pretty much.

There's a lot of random applications that I use it for. Like when a falco shines, then does the retreating n-air/d-air to try and bait the grab, or a roll, or whatever. I n-air them for that, whereas shine oos would miss.

Also sometimes when they n-air/d-air into my shield, but are at a range where when they shine it will hit my shield, but if I'm not shielding then it will miss. I do it there too.

Also if they try to cross up on the shield with a move (but shine is better there usually anyway).

And when the opponent is approaching with a laser that hits the shield sometimes, but they're not in range to shine me

 

[Dr Peepee]

And you like it more than upsmash? I guess at lower percents especially it can be better since you can fade back with it.

Or do you use Upsmash OOS at times too? I don't get pressured very much so I don't know much about this lol.

 

[unknown522]

honestly, I always forget that u-smash exists.

It'd more than likely be a better option than n-air

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL I see. Well then I will keep this in mind.

 

[unknown522]

indeed.

Yeah, I must use u-smash more as well.

 

[Bones0]

Nair and Bair hit on frame 4, so Nair/Bair OoS hits on frame 9.
Dair hits on frame 5, so Dair OoS hits on frame 10.
Usmash hits on frame 7, so Usmash OoS hits on frame 8.

Just for reference, Grab hits on frames 7-8, and Shine OoS (grounded) hits on 6.

Just fyi.

 

[AvengerAngel]

There's a lot of random applications that I use it for. Like when a falco shines, then does the retreating n-air/d-air to try and bait the grab, or a roll, or whatever. I n-air them for that, whereas shine oos would miss.

Isn't this a bit risky? If the other Falco Fsmashes "randomly" (i.e. not on reaction) or uses something like a jab/ftilt wouldn't you get outprioritized right away and punished for attempting that?
I'm just wondering, cause sometimes I have troubles dealing with fade-out aerials in ditto, so either I try to Dair OOS them asap (I have the feeling Dair has more priority while Nair can trade/get outprioritized by Fsmash) or I just roll away lol

 

[unknown522]

N-air will definitely hit first if they try to f-smash. If you're too slow in the n-air then jab and f-tilt will probably hit you. Fortunately though when those moves hit, there aren't any good follows for them (unless you're at a high percent sometimes I guess). Jab may even get them punished assuming you're not at a high percent. Vs any character that jabs you, just don't panic and that make the move automatically suck (except at kill percent I guess).

But yeah the reason for n-air vs that stray is because they have to do an early aerial to do the fadeaway, which gives you lots of time to n-air them back.

Alternatively, you can actually WD oos and shine them before they can do anything

 

[AvengerAngel]

Huh sometimes I thought about WD'ing OOS but it seemed too slow. It's probably that I don't react fast enough when my shield gets hit, then. I'll give those thing a try, thanks
Especially Nair, which seems very cool (I aldready use it in some MUs like vs. Puff and it's awesome), but sometimes I end up pushing A too early and I shield grab instead. And I get ***** for it xd

 

[Dr Peepee]

WD OOS shine? I'm not sure if I can see that working, but I'll look into it.

 

[silentSWAG]

everyone should start meditating helps endurance

 

[unknown522]

Try it out. Both spacies can do it