PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Penguin_ftw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lLRojiSv7Y&feature=g-u-u&context=G2514daeFUAAAAAAAKAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn3yh8SDD8A&feature=g-u-u&context=G21d4665FUAAAAAAAJAA

The goal is to 2-0 Sethlon next Saturday, tips would be appreciated

 

[Rubyiris]

Me and m2k did a bunch of dittos. Usmash oos is about as good with falco as it is as fox. They have differerent applications, but similar payout.

My set vs wobbles last tournament had arguably the smartest falco usmash oos in smash history.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Me and m2k did a bunch of dittos. Usmash oos is about as good with falco as it is as fox. They have differerent applications, but similar payout.

My set vs wobbles last tournament had arguably the smartest falco usmash oos in smash history.

Wouldn't U-Smash OOS be useless as Falco against an opponent at low percent's whereas with Fox it may be a bit more useful due to it having a higher damager output or whatever?

Anyways, I wanted to ask a question. I've been incorporating doubleshines in my pressure a lot as of late, but I feel like I do it to much. Is it easily punishable if I overuse it and my opponent catches on, or is it a VERY safe option?

 

[Pigs]

I have a question regarding priority vs Fox. Since both of the Spacies move sets are similar in a way, does that mean that they have the same priority?

For example, Falco's nair has the same priority as Fox's

 

[Druggedfox]

Double shining is pretty safe unless you space your first shine and they SDI away or something.

That said, just because it's super safe doesn't really mean it's always a good choice, a lot of the time you have better options

 

[FoxLisk]

It's safe but you kinda have to commit to it ahead of time to execute it right (at least in my experience). so if you always do it your opponent gets a nice window to escape. they dont have an easy way to punish you, but they can reset so you're getting less than you could be out of your pressure.

 

[Rubyiris]

Wouldn't U-Smash OOS be useless as Falco against an opponent at low percent's whereas with Fox it may be a bit more useful due to it having a higher damager output or whatever?

Anyways, I wanted to ask a question. I've been incorporating doubleshines in my pressure a lot as of late, but I feel like I do it to much. Is it easily punishable if I overuse it and my opponent catches on, or is it a VERY safe option?

At really low percentages, it would be useless. The kicker is that Falco's combos for longer, and has longer range (iirc)

 

[Strong Badam]

has the same range

 

[Van.]

So what do you guys like to abuse against doc?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dair and uptilt and lasers

but mostly the first 2

 

[Van.]

Fascinating.

 

[Warhawk]

At really low percentages, it would be useless. The kicker is that Falco's combos for longer, and has longer range (iirc)

I always find that it's really awkward to combo with though except for against the spacies or Falcon. Although I guess the spacies are going to be the characters pressuring your shield the most often so in this case I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I know that I need to practice practice practice, but does anyone have tips they used to learn how to doubleshine on shields? I've tried lvl9 Bowser, Starmen, and I'd like to know if there are any in game things I could try, as well as certain thumb positions? Or perhaps it's JUST practice. Hmmm.

 

[tarheeljks]

make sure you are trying it, or anything else you want to learn against real opponents. easy to lose your nerve when your playing against someone, esp if you they are better or you are in a rotation lol

 

[Bones0]

I know that I need to practice practice practice, but does anyone have tips they used to learn how to doubleshine on shields? I've tried lvl9 Bowser, Starmen, and I'd like to know if there are any in game things I could try, as well as certain thumb positions? Or perhaps it's JUST practice. Hmmm.

What part are you messing up?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think it's mainly the hitlag messing up my timing, so I jump earlier than I should, so I either get stuck in shine, or I shine, then jump, and miss the timing on the second shine. Kind of hard to explain.

 

[Bones0]

The important thing to know about timing multishines is that it isn't equal both ways. One part is going from Y to B. You are ALWAYS going to shine on the first airborne frame (6 for Falco). This is the most difficult part due to it requiring frame precision, but it is also the part that never changes.

The second part then, obviously, is going from B to Y. This part allows much more room for timing, but it is also dynamic due to hitlag. Falco's shine has 5 frames of hitlag (not staled; not sure how many frames this changes by when fully staled) including the frame it hits. This means that after you shine, you have to wait 7 frames (5 for hitlag, 2 for the second and third frames of shine) before jumping. Simply put, if you're getting stuck in shine, it means you're inputting the jump within that 7 frames.

Now that's all just technical mumbo jumbo and I'm sure you already figured out you were hitting B too soon. But why does it happen and how can you fix it? Simply put, our brains obsess over the timing from Y to B because it's the part where timing matters the most. While our brain is off focusing on the exact 6th frame for Y to B, B to Y gets shafted because our brain wants it to be a nice even pattern, and it tries to go from B to Y in 6 frames as well. Unfortunately, when we subconsciously try to equalize the pattern for our thumb, going from Y to B will be very consistent, but it makes us jump to early very consistently as well.

Obviously practice is the only real solution, but specifically practice as you focus on the varied timings so you don't fall into the habit of trying to do the motion at the same speed. It's a real mind**** because you still have to do the motion REALLY fast, but you just have to add in the smallest delay on the one side. I believe this is the reason multishining without hitlag is easier (not just because most people practice it without it). Without hitlag in the equation, we can go from Y to B in 6 frames, and also go from B to Y in 6 frames without there being anything wrong. This method is completely wasting 3 frames sitting in shine, but since the only time we ever multishine without compensating for hitlag is to show off, no one worries about it. So after you get down multishining on peoples' shields, go back and learn to show off with faster multishining. Watching these kids do it slow as **** in between stocks makes me sick.


Here's a nifty thread for reviewing the frame data if something I said is hard to visualize. Just CTRL+F for "Falco's Multishine Data".

 

[mers]

since we're talking about underutilized OOS options, i feel like i should mention laser OOS. really great against people that do fadeback aerials and then wait for your grab/roll/wavedash.

plus it looks awesome. <3 laser OOS.

 

[a nub]

actually **** it ima post vids for critique when we record again, these werent a really good sample

 

[Vaccine]

since we're talking about underutilized OOS options, i feel like i should mention laser OOS. really great against people that do fadeback aerials and then wait for your grab/roll/wavedash.

plus it looks awesome. <3 laser OOS.

i just started doing that and i love it!

 

[ShroudedOne]

Thank you for the double shine information, Bones. Saved your post, and I'm going to think about this while practicing.

 

[ThatGuy]

Hey guys!

I had a bit of trouble with floaty matchups yesterday. I went in with the mindset of trying to be a bit more aggressive than I'm used to (which is still apparently not that aggressive lol) but I don't think I was paying enough attention to my opponent's reactions to my aggressiveness...something I'll definitely be keeping in mind next time.

Anyway, I got LF and GF action recorded. I had lost to Ben earlier in Winner's bracket. I'm pretty clueless on that Samus matchup lol.

ThatGuy (Falco) vs Ben (Marth) LF

ThatGuy (Falco) vs CC (Samus) GF

Thoughts, critiques, and insults always welcome.

 

[FoxLisk]

Hey guys!

I had a bit of trouble with floaty matchups yesterday. I went in with the mindset of trying to be a bit more aggressive than I'm used to (which is still apparently not that aggressive lol) but I don't think I was paying enough attention to my opponent's reactions to my aggressiveness...something I'll definitely be keeping in mind next time.

Anyway, I got LF and GF action recorded. I had lost to Ben earlier in Winner's bracket. I'm pretty clueless on that Samus matchup lol.

ThatGuy (Falco) vs Ben (Marth) LF

ThatGuy (Falco) vs CC (Samus) GF

Thoughts, critiques, and insults always welcome.

watching vs marth

1) full hop rising aerial when your opponent is on a platform is almost always a bad idea
2) you grab like 0% of the time
3) you dash attack too much. even if he's in lag he can CC grab it (although his guy's not) and it's not your best combo starter against marth most of the time
4) you stand just barely inside tipper range all the time... work on your spacing
5) WD oos grab/shine when he fsmashes your shield
6) i know he doesnt notice this, but you recover at a 45 degree angle almost always
7) being aggressive doesnt mean lasering a couple times and then getting DD grabbed. be more careful with your pressure (and i dont mean shield pressure)
8) you miss punishes on most of your opponents techs/missed techs, you should work on that

 

[ShroudedOne]

With everything that Bones/Foxlisk gave me, double shining is actually coming more naturally, especially since I've converted to clawing for it (thumb on B, index finger on Y). Consistency rate is sort of low, but that's just more practice.

 

[giovannig22311]

i had a question is wavedashing out of shield important with falco cuse if so thats something i need to practice asap?

 

[a nub]

yes it's important to know for pretty much everyone esp vs marth

 

[FrootLoop]

hey falcos, here's my sets against kels last tourney:
WF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhduxs5mh7c
GF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJi1J6v38M

any advice would be appreciated

 

[Wenbobular]

With everything that Bones/Foxlisk gave me, double shining is actually coming more naturally, especially since I've converted to clawing for it (thumb on B, index finger on Y). Consistency rate is sort of low, but that's just more practice.

How are you clawing it? Are you switching grips in the middle of play? That seems pretty bad, what if you want to eventually figure out how to doubleshine wavedash to chase rolls? Doubleshine grab? Doubleshine aerial?

Unless you're just clawing all the time in which case that would make a little more sense, but I wouldn't change grip styles for Falco's doubleshine, which isn't even very fast

It took me a while to work up the finger speed for grounded Fox doubleshines (not that I'm very good at using them, but I can do them!) but Falco's doubleshine is basically just making sure you don't rush the inputs

@Frootloop
One super specific thing that I think you (and every Falco) should learn
Most Falcos will hit a tech then immediately up-b

Now it's nice that you're not just straight up dead ... but most of the time you're actually just straight up dead ... you don't even have the fire Fox has to help
So instead learn how to ledgetech illusion
If you think about the inputs, it's not actually very hard to do ... but you have to be absolutely mentally prepared to tech and instantly illusion
Alternatively ledgetech walljump -> illusion shorten, or at the very least delay a little before using your upb (moot point on Battlefield, but on stages where you can sweetspot from below it helps a lot to delay to the point where they have to guess if you're going to sweetspot or not if they're going to stay on the stage)
If you want to practice it, prox mine on the ledge in training mode works well enough

It feels like you get him under a platform with his back to the ledge and a fairly uncontested advancing laser a few times but can't capitalize ... I think this position is favored for you, but you have to keep track of what his escape options are correctly cover which one you think he's going to do

Also I'm watching game 1 of grand finals and I think I'm combining situations where he's on a platform with situations where you have him slightly cornered, but I think the point stands for both cases ... when you have someone on a platform you have the advantage in that at some point, they have to get off and your good attacks are very good anti air

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, I switch grips. I move my right index finger from R to Y. It's what I do with Peach for float cancels, but I take your point that it'll be hard to transition, and I've been noticing that. If it doesn't work, then I'll have to try it normally. I just don't feel my fingers are that quick.

 

[Wenbobular]

How do you think I felt when I was first trying to do Fox doubleshines haha
Just practice the motion and try to get closer to the ground every time, concentrating on getting from Y to B as fast as possible for the second shine (if the problem you're having is you can't press buttons fast enough to stay grounded)

You'll get it eventually
Especially if (I believe) you're making the transition from Peach / any other character not Fox

Also, big stack of Falco dittos if anyone wants to watch / critique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qKlsBMnm6w
I'm going through them myself at the moment to find specific moments I want help on, but if anyone wants to just watch for the heck of it xD (there are more on my channel from that day)

I'm player 1, DKuo is player 2
Feel free to point out stuff for either of us
I'm trying to work on move choice in combos, because sometimes I just don't know the best way to continue / finish

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I switch grips. I move my right index finger from R to Y. It's what I do with Peach for float cancels, but I take your point that it'll be hard to transition, and I've been noticing that. If it doesn't work, then I'll have to try it normally. I just don't feel my fingers are that quick.

You really don't need to claw. Once you can go in between B and Y fast enough, it's pretty easy. Make sure you are sliding in between so that your thumb just runs over the closest half of each button and not actually pressing. Eventually it starts to feel like a single button press. You can practice thumb speed by learning these techniques that are increasingly faster:

1. LHDL with Falco
2. SHDL with Fox
3. Double Shine with Falco
4. Double Shine with Fox

You could also try learning shines out of dashes (where you jump into a shine). I didn't learn it until after I could double shine, but it might be easier. Just DD in place and go from Y to B with that 6-frame timing.

 

[ThatGuy]

watching vs marth

1) full hop rising aerial when your opponent is on a platform is almost always a bad idea
2) you grab like 0% of the time
3) you dash attack too much. even if he's in lag he can CC grab it (although his guy's not) and it's not your best combo starter against marth most of the time
4) you stand just barely inside tipper range all the time... work on your spacing
5) WD oos grab/shine when he fsmashes your shield
6) i know he doesnt notice this, but you recover at a 45 degree angle almost always
7) being aggressive doesnt mean lasering a couple times and then getting DD grabbed. be more careful with your pressure (and i dont mean shield pressure)
8) you miss punishes on most of your opponents techs/missed techs, you should work on that

Hey awesome, thanks!

1) Yeah pretty bad habit, I should try some more optimal solutions.
4) Yipes!
5) Yeah after watching the vids I definitely did not make any use of WD OOS, which is stupid because I would have gotten a lot more punishes that way. I also noticed that I should WD off of platforms more because that thought never seems to cross my mind.
6) There was a reason for this! The guy kept Fsmashing as an edgeguard (both in winners and in losers) and never changed it up, so it didn't really leave me other choices (although maybe I could have started it higher and gone straight or something).

EDIT: 1 more match for the books: ThatGuy (Falco) vs CC (Samus) Crew Battle

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8L1ZvOsQTs&feature=player_detailpage

lmao, brawl kids watching melee for the first time practically

also falco tips appreciated :D

( i dont play much anymore :/ )

 

[FoxLisk]

Hey awesome, thanks!

1) Yeah pretty bad habit, I should try some more optimal solutions.
4) Yipes!
5) Yeah after watching the vids I definitely did not make any use of WD OOS, which is stupid because I would have gotten a lot more punishes that way. I also noticed that I should WD off of platforms more because that thought never seems to cross my mind.
6) There was a reason for this! The guy kept Fsmashing as an edgeguard (both in winners and in losers) and never changed it up, so it didn't really leave me other choices (although maybe I could have started it higher and gone straight or something).

EDIT: 1 more match for the books: ThatGuy (Falco) vs CC (Samus) Crew Battle

You're welcome! Hope it helped some.

For the tipper spacin thing, watch how often you get sh tipper faired, and be more careful in those situations.

For 6, that's totally legit as long as you're conscious of it. It's hard to distinguish a habit from a consistent but deliberate choice from just a couple videos.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

Hey I just wanted to throw an idea out there. If you have someone shielding under or slightly in front of a platform, if jumping and doing a waveland dair off the platform might be useful as a mixup. I thought the hesitation and jumping away from their shield might be a good way to bait a reaction and catch them with the dair. A buffered role would probably let them get out but you could just laser or just continue to pressure.

 

[wezai]

Guys, sorry for the ignorance, but, I forgot what wd oos means. Could anyone gimme a hint? I haven't played for a very long time, I started again just recently, so I'm trying to remember the terms.

And yea, I tried using the search function, didn't work as expected. xD

 

[Bones0]

Wavedash out of shield.

 

[wezai]

Wavedash out of shield.

Thanks. It makes sense now.

Edit:

hey falcos, here's my sets against kels last tourney:
WF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhduxs5mh7c
GF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJi1J6v38M

any advice would be appreciated

Haha, nice matches, you have a good Falco control. By the way, it's not that I'm nitpicking but the way you gave up on Yoshi's Story (first match) is too risky. Never quit the match on Yoshi's Story because you did an air-dodge wrongly, specially when you are close to the wall or can't see where the cloud actually is.

That cloud can save you many times. The time you quit, approximately at 5:01, you were literally going to die. But if that miss-dodge happened at 4:55 almost 4:54 you would have lived, even though you wouldn't see the cloud at that point. It would pop-up as a nice life-saver.

So yeah, fun fact: When you play at Yoshi's Story with timer on, always look at the clock. I can tell just by the timer itself where the cloud is (it takes 20 seconds for a full loop). I don't know if you guys already knew that, though.

 

[Penguin_ftw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lLRojiSv7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn3yh8SDD8A

Other than not going above him, and actually warming up my spacies before facing him, how to beat Sethlon this saturday?

 

[wezai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lLRojiSv7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn3yh8SDD8A

Other than not going above him, and actually warming up my spacies before facing him, how to beat Sethlon this saturday?

I would suggest to bring him to Congo Jungle 64 or Dream Land 64 and spam lasers like there's no tomorrow. Keep him under your pressure and eventually he will mess up. The platforms there doesn't allow him to abuse his u-tilt or aerials and he won't be able to chain-grab you effectively. Avoid Fountain of Dreams or Yoshi's Story because the range of those platforms are just too good for him.

He seems to d-tilt a lot at midstage, so if you maintain a certain distance or CC'ing to punish that might work.

From what I noticed he power-shields a lot and then grabs you, so coming at him might be a bad idea. Keep spamming lasers and wait for him to come at you. Shield-grab or JC & d-tilt him when he is at mid % to high if his aerials fail or if he is coming with WD.

I'm sure there's more to it, hopefully tomorrow someone more experienced against Roy will help you! Everything I said could be considered null as I don't face many Roys, so good luck!.