PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[unknown522]

Good call on the utilts on shield. I still feel good about the jabs, but I'll use them less now probably.

Thanks for pointing out that lasering under the platform thing. I'm going to play around with that situation in my head now. I already have some new ideas. =)

I like turning him around when he Bairs, but I end up not punishing the Fair that comes out afterward. I'll tighten that up for next time though or do something else when I see him come down.

That last match.....ahhhhhh so unfortunate. I'll be more composed next time.

I think all of me that was recorded got uploaded. Phanna is super fast.

foxlisk is right. You did really well.

The only piece of advice I have is that you illusion onto the stage way too much, when Hbox is there waiting for you. Firebird sweetspot/shortened phantasm is amazing when you pick the right times to do it. A lot of times, just doing phantasm sweetspots would've saved you. Also, firebird diagonally upwards......since it has less lag when you land than phantasm.

I have no advice for you onstage. Your game is so beast!

 

[Dr Peepee]

foxlisk is right. You did really well.

The only piece of advice I have is that you illusion onto the stage way too much, when Hbox is there waiting for you. Firebird sweetspot/shortened phantasm is amazing when you pick the right times to do it. A lot of times, just doing phantasm sweetspots would've saved you. Also, firebird diagonally upwards......since it has less lag when you land than phantasm.

I have no advice for you onstage. Your game is so beast!

Yeah, I've had quite a few people point that out to me as well. I'll start working on that more.

Thanks man!

 

[Jartravious]

uh. on what character? and how do you play? for example, against jiggs, i usually get kills at like 120%+ because i always play extremely conservatively and only go for utilt/dtilt kills so i dont get punished, but an aggressive high risk/high reward player might go for riskier kills in the 70s. and ill generally kill a fox or falco at like maybe 90%, but a good samus will live till like 130+. so it's kind of a broad question.

I normally end up killing captain falcon, luigi, and ganon past 130% (these are just the characters I play against the most). I think its a mix between me being a very defensive player and not comboing into kill moves. And most of the people I play with have good DI. Thanks for the advice Macman

 

[Winston]

I was watching you vs Kels from pound 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytAnQ39GXJU

and I was wondering, do you time your Dair edgeguards so they hit high on purpose so they can't be teched?

 

[ChivalRuse]

You should ask Ted. He always does those cheap untechable dairs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was watching you vs Kels from pound 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytAnQ39GXJU

and I was wondering, do you time your Dair edgeguards so they hit high on purpose so they can't be teched?

Yes. =p

Throwing off tech timing/making it harder to tech is very ****.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I do that with Sheik.

It combos to U-smash sometimes and kills them off the roof.

It's sooooooooooooooo cool.

 

[FoxLisk]

I normally end up killing captain falcon, luigi, and ganon past 130% (these are just the characters I play against the most). I think its a mix between me being a very defensive player and not comboing into kill moves. And most of the people I play with have good DI. Thanks for the advice Macman

that seems pretty reasonable. although sort of misleading. a lot of times a ganon will die at 130% but you've been edgeguarding him and hitting him offstage from like 60% cause he takes forever to finish edgeguarding. just try to combo into edgeguard opportunities against CF/ganon.

i have no help for luigi since i have nearly zero experience against him

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bahaha KK you're so mean. =p

 

[KirbyKaze]

No if I were mean I'd do pin fall off week bear wake beer combo and they'd die in a silly gimpy grotesque fashion.

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMFAO

You've been very nice to us. Thanks.

To be somewhat relevant, I like to Bair Luigi a lot. Space those on Luigi and he has a bad day approaching and shielding and falling down.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bears are scary. Luigi's a clown.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

BTW that weird shuffle (not SHFFL) thing that kicks up all the dust that I see spacies do, is that a short hopped waveland or dashdance? I've tried to emulate it (I don't play spacies at all) but I just end up doing foxtrots or dashdances that look nothing like it.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

you mean sh then waveland?

 

[finalcloud13]

BTW that weird shuffle (not SHFFL) thing that kicks up all the dust that I see spacies do, is that a short hopped waveland or dashdance? I've tried to emulate it (I don't play spacies at all) but I just end up doing foxtrots or dashdances that look nothing like it.

I think you're describing wavedashes.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

you mean sh then waveland?

Oh so those are wavelands? I guess because the space animals have such a low altitude on their short hops you can waveland as soon as you jump?

 

[X1-12]

Oh so those are wavelands? I guess because the space animals have such a low altitude on their short hops you can waveland as soon as you jump?

everyone can do this if you are fast enough, its called wavedashing

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Couple of questions

Do your Shines OoS have to be really on point to get Fox when he is Shine Nairing on your shield or is there room for leeway?

Is Shine OoS faster than Shield grab and is there ever a situation where Shield Grab is the better option?

I was playing Zhu's Marth yesterday and
1. He power shields a lot and knows Falco's pressure inside and out so I can't lock him down
2. When I'm in a Fair combo, if I DI away and off stage then he edgeguards me, if I DI in he Dairs me
How do I deal with that stuff? lol

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Depends on how the fox is shine nairing. If they do early nair -> shine than it's pretty easy to shine oos. if they do late aerials than its impossible.

shine oos is faster than shield grab. grab might be better when they may be too high percent for shine to combo. Then grab might be better to just throw them off the stage or to attempt a like dthrow dsmash combo on fox or uthrow uair/dair combo on like everyone else. Grab is much higher risk tho so yea

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

everyone can do this if you are fast enough, its called wavedashing

I am aware of what a wavedash is, and no not everyone gets the same effect from a wavedash like they do a waveland (i.e. Ganondorf).

 

[X1-12]

I am aware of what a wavedash is, and no not everyone gets the same effect from a wavedash like they do a waveland (i.e. Ganondorf).

I only said everyone can wavedash..

 

[Lovage]

Couple of questions

Do your Shines OoS have to be really on point to get Fox when he is Shine Nairing on your shield or is there room for leeway?

Is Shine OoS faster than Shield grab and is there ever a situation where Shield Grab is the better option?

I was playing Zhu's Marth yesterday and
1. He power shields a lot and knows Falco's pressure inside and out so I can't lock him down
2. When I'm in a Fair combo, if I DI away and off stage then he edgeguards me, if I DI in he Dairs me
How do I deal with that stuff? lol

the timing for shine oos is much easier when fox does high aerials on your shield over low or spaced aerials.

if hes reflecting ur lasers really easy it's prolly because you're being predictable with the way you shoot them. if you just mix up high/low/empty laser its a billion times harder to reflect

with fair combos, would you rather DI in and die 100% of the time? or DI away and live die like 70% of the time. melee is full of situations like this where you have to pick the better of two bad things. pick ur poison as mango would say

 

[Little England]

Depends on how the fox is shine nairing. If they do early nair -> shine than it's pretty easy to shine oos. if they do late aerials than its impossible.

shine oos is faster than shield grab. grab might be better when they may be too high percent for shine to combo. Then grab might be better to just throw them off the stage or to attempt a like dthrow dsmash combo on fox or uthrow uair/dair combo on like everyone else. Grab is much higher risk tho so yea

Shine bair/nair Oos is priy good at high percent

 

[Melomaniacal]

So, what could you guys tell me about the Ganon match up (besides "spam lasers")?

Oh, also, f-throw to f-throw is practically a chain grab. Like, more than half the time when I forward throw someone, their reaction is to shield, so I just run over and grab him again. Occasionally it will work more than twice in a row. Funny stuff.

 

[DippnDots]

Ganon gets his most damage done on falco when he gets a grab, after that it just takes a single read to tag 30-50 percent on you. Try to play more of a survivability game against ganon, in this match up it really helps to combo into dair KO's (he can live for quite a while otherwise). Don't trade hits, you want to get in, get your damage done, back off, rinse and repeat. Ganon can take a much heavier beating than falco and just one to two of his hits can be equivilent to a long falco combo.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Shine bair/nair Oos is priy good at high percent

yea, this is also good when you know they are gonna try to space the aerial on yur sheild. So you are out of their shine range and are free to follow them with an aerial. You can also wd shine oos to catch this as well, esp if they try to dash away after the aerial.

watch out for utilts tho

 

[Little England]

I have a bit of Ganon experience against Bizzaro. Here are a few points.

-Beware. Ganon can counter all of your approaches. You really have to mix it up to get inside. If you are just outside the range of his fair when he throws it out then you have enough time to run inside and start your shield pressure.
-Be careful when pressuring his shield in front of him. His shield grab is actually really good. Like many other matchups it is much more safe to pressure him behind his shield, force the roll/wd OoS, and the catch him with a laser and continue the pressure.
-Once you get a hit you HAVE TO make the most of it. Giving him back his ground could cost you plenty of damage or a lost stock.
-Shine off the top of Pkmn stadium and Yoshi's works.
-When edgeguarding Ganon, I actually suggest NOT to bair. Ganon is actually floaty in a weird way so bairing him isn't that effective. Stick to intercepting his downB with a dair, grabbing the ledge then dsmashing, and if he's at high percent dtilt when he lands on the stage (ie. like you would against sheik). The dair>dair works nicely as well.

edit: Random question. If a Fox doesn't space his utilt on your shield do you have enough time to dair him? I'm like 50/50 on punishing him in that fashion and I'm wondering if it's just a technical error or not.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think you can get that Dair on Fox, but maybe I'm too slow.

I always shield DI away/WD back OOS and go for an approach if Fox isn't ready for that option. It usually catches him by surprise so he can't get away/react to the approach quickly enough.

 

[X1-12]

I have a bit of Ganon experience against Bizzaro. Here are a few points.

-Beware. Ganon can counter all of your approaches. You really have to mix it up to get inside. If you are just outside the range of his fair when he throws it out then you have enough time to run inside and start your shield pressure.

.

I generally don't approach at all?



also F-air works a treat

 

[Mogwai]

just shoot ganon and never approach. When he approaches, hit him first with your way faster moves, then proceed to combo him to 85712398471239847213894% because he's big and slow and has convenient physics for extended combos.

the only reasons falcos ever lose to ganons is because Linguini's a ****ing monster and because they approach into all his stupid tricks like fadeback fair and fullhop dair and because Kage takes them to brinstar, .

 

[Little England]

Falco has the best approach in the game and Ganon is a big fat piece of lard. Why would you not approach? Another Ganon point I forgot.

-uthrow isn't that good against him. He can uair you before you can hit him with an aerial sometimes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ganon has excellent counters against Falco's approaches. Linguini is teaching other Ganons counters that end up scaring Falco and causing him to think about his approaches or he gets *****.

Can't just laser to approach. Ganon can take the hit and jab you.

Can't just rush Ganon when he shields. Ganon can Uair OOS to beat any approaches and then DJ fall back Fair to keep himself safe(Falco is too slow to catch Ganon out of the air).

Can't just attack Ganon when he's on a platform. He can fall through fadeaway with Bairs/Fairs and hit you when you jump to laser/aerial him. You aren't fast enough to get him as he lands otherwise though. Ganon has other platform options but that's the most common scenario that happens.

All I'm getting at here is that approaching Ganon is a huge pain and if you mess up once Ganon only needs a good read or two and you're dead. Ganon's edgeguards are getting easier on Falco and it doesn't tkae him long at all to get Falco offstage.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Yeah, you just summed up my feelings on the match up. It's frustrating to be working your *** off just to even get in, work your *** off to getting him in killing range, then getting killed by two moves.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not saying Falco gets ***** or anything, but the matchup is farrrrr from a cakewalk.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'm not saying Falco gets ***** or anything, but the matchup is farrrrr from a cakewalk.

Definitely. I used to think of the match up as something I could just figure out and win easily, but as I've been playing it recently, I'm realizing that you have to put work into that match up.

 

[Mogwai]

I disagree, it is a cakewalk, just stop approaching,

approaching him is hard, so just stop it and make him approach because his approach is ****ing balls.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, but I'm kind of concerned about how well Ganon can use his big moves to stick Falco in one spot and force him to roll or get shield stabbed and die.

I get what you're saying though. Against Ganon not approaching is definitely a good option more often than not it seems.

 

[Mogwai]

when he sticks you in a spot, stay calm and shoot high a few times, then shoot low and quickly attack his shield with nair. it's important to do this once or twice to establish that he doesn't frighten you.

the thing is that Ganon must work really hard to stick you in a spot, so he's typically reluctant to just run in there and go for you. He really really really just wants you to roll or jump to immediately escape and then punish, but if you instead just stick to shooting him, his safe options won't yield him anything.

By shooting high you stop his possible approaches except for forward B and down B, which are both risky on his part and something he's loath to do quickly, once he jumps into one of these or commits to his shield, you plug the low laser to give him very little time to react from the laser to the nair.

Making your number of leading lasers erratic gives you a way to bait the jab response, which is harmless at the spacing Ganon wants to be at (where he can still outspace your approaches with fadeback fair). If he's outside this spacing, you just nair at him because short of him outspacing you, nair rocks Ganon.

Once you do this a couple times, the Ganon will try to counter this by going for something risky like down b or forward b quickly when you're back into the corner, which means that the 2nd or 3rd time he corners you, you should be ready to start mixing full hop/rolling back in as they both are counters to his low approaches through your lasers.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hmmm, those are good ideas. I'll play around with them.

 

[FoxLisk]

when he sticks you in a spot, stay calm and shoot high a few times, then shoot low and quickly attack his shield with nair. it's important to do this once or twice to establish that he doesn't frighten you.

the thing is that Ganon must work really hard to stick you in a spot, so he's typically reluctant to just run in there and go for you. He really really really just wants you to roll or jump to immediately escape and then punish, but if you instead just stick to shooting him, his safe options won't yield him anything.

By shooting high you stop his possible approaches except for forward B and down B, which are both risky on his part and something he's loath to do quickly, once he jumps into one of these or commits to his shield, you plug the low laser to give him very little time to react from the laser to the nair.

Making your number of leading lasers erratic gives you a way to bait the jab response, which is harmless at the spacing Ganon wants to be at (where he can still outspace your approaches with fadeback fair). If he's outside this spacing, you just nair at him because short of him outspacing you, nair rocks Ganon.

Once you do this a couple times, the Ganon will try to counter this by going for something risky like down b or forward b quickly when you're back into the corner, which means that the 2nd or 3rd time he corners you, you should be ready to start mixing full hop/rolling back in as they both are counters to his low approaches through your lasers.

this post is full of win. please copy it into the matchup thread!