JPOBS
Smash Hero
the set is saved on the stream. its the beginning of the video thats 1 hour 37 mins long
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
Pi
Smash Hero
yea lol
go to sleep w/ him, eminem, and dmx
used in mango's combo video
i been listening to it again so that's why lol
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
Local Sheik player.Who is sherigami >_>
It was funny cause I 4 stocked him with 40% first game but lost the next two LOOOL. I beat him in Winner's Finals after making a few adjustments, but it wasn't recorded.
I'm still not very comfortable in the Sheik matchup. She seems to be the hardest to lock down / have guaranteed hits on. I only did well when I forced myself to be a bit more patient which is something I'm not good at. Unknown, since you're probably the Falco with the most Sheik experience, could you tell me a bit about Falco vs Sheik (or anyone else =D)?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Never mind.
G
genkaku
Guest
I hate the sheik matchup, which sucks because it's the only one I get to play very often. I just don't want to give it the patience it requires. The other day I literally said to myself out loud "you don't have to run straight at that shield. I know it's tempting but don't do it, man."
I kinda' wish melee was just mario dittos and spacie battles on yoshi's, lol
I kinda' wish melee was just mario dittos and spacie battles on yoshi's, lol
unknown522
Some guy
Alright, I'm on it.
Any specifics? or should I just go over most of the matchup? Cuz I wouldn't want to run over things that you probably know already.
Also, PP kinda gave Hbox the ****. Just sayin.
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
I wish I got to see that. I heard first set was 3-2, second set was 3-1, so to me that seems close enough.
I'd list a few things I have trouble with, but that'd end up being the whole matchup. I have a hard time locking her down, getting opening dair / shine hits, and getting out of her combos / shield pressure in particular. I think I have pretty good recovery, edgeguarding and combo sense (see me vs sherigami match 1 when it's uploaded), so I'm not too worried about those.
I noticed that all of those problems go away if I just be more patient, meaning more laser locks, defensive aerials, and less direct approaches. It works for now, but I feel that mentality will never allow me to beat top level sheiks like amsah, kk, over, etc. So what are some specific openings you look for and what's your mentality of getting out of shield pressure / sheik combos? Also, what do you think about grabs / shine grabs vs shield pressure on sheik?
D
Deleted member
Guest
i hate sheik vs falco as sheik and love it as falco. it just...feels terrible. /blatant bias.
D
Deleted member
Guest
if sheik throws them on the ground, block.Can we go over needles? I freakin hate needles. Any tips on what to do about em?
if she throws them in the air, don't be 45 degrees under/next to her.
if she throws them at your recovery, get ***** and die.
if she likes to use them, use lasers and remind her that your projectile is substantially better.
unknown522
Some guy
Ahh, I see what you're saying zhu. I'll add more later. Cuz my friend needs his laptop to study math right now. When I get home in 2 hours. Also, I know I switch the writing style from "I"/"Me" to "you" a lot, so forgive me for that.
But yeah, for now: I never have trouble with sheik's shield pressure, unless they know that I'm gonna chill in shield and they go for a grab, or if I blatantly mess up/get shield stabbed (my shield fails a lot so it's kinda aggravating). Something to keep in mind though, is that her low n-air breaks even on shield, so don't do anything unless you're sure that they're gonna try to grab/bait you. But yeah, I sometimes do small approaches with shield if I see them jump around a lot to try and mess with their spacing and see if I can get a shine oos, or and aerial punish. If it looks like it won't work, then I'll either WD back oos, or jump to a platform so that I can reset to neutral position. If they space bad on your shield, then shine oos all day. If they space well on your shield, you usually can WD back oos after they do a jab/tilt on your shield. It's so much better than rolling. Still, rolling back is not too bad of an option. Just don't spam it ofc.
Sheik combos are a major issue. Theoretically, you should die off of one good hit from sheik, assuming that they don't mess up (due to reactive tech chases and stuff). But of course it doesn't happen like that. Yknow, human error and stuff. Still, sheik is one of those characters that has a lot of leeway for following techs and stuff because she has a good combination of speed and range. The main way that I try to avoid sheik combos is simply by being near a platform, or even the edge sometimes (so risky, but at low percent I'm really confident that I won't get gimped). When I get hit, I try to edge-cancel off platforms if the percent is right. If I know that I will get hit by dash attack, or f-tilt when I'm on the ground, then I try to DI down and tech (that double stick tech, or w/e it's called), or CC them and then shine.
If she's already got me in tech chasing positions, then what I usually do is mix up DIs, and tech whichever way will get me the most distance from sheik, or in place (DI away + tech away a few times. Or DI in + tech in. Or even tech in place with those DIs). I also do a certain slight DI that makes it look ambiguous to whether I'm going to go behind them or not and then tech in place (it's a good 50/50 mixup). Also, not teching is good sometimes when you get knocked down since you can SDI jab resets, or get them to try and guess what you're gonna do. Watching the opponent is key a lot of the time with this stuff, because a lot of players have tendencies to move around, or sometimes do preemptive things like shield and stuff. So sometimes you can catch them with get up attacks, or rolling away because they shielded or something. Assess the situation and go from there. Very commonly though, the easiest way to stop tech chase lockdowns for me is to tech near the edge, but not close enough for them to dropzone you. Once you reach a certain distance near the edge, you can DI and edge-cancel so that you don't have to tech. Since spacies have an amazing ledge-WD and various good ledge options, it works out. Just don't mess up, or you're gonna lose your stock. Alternatively, sicne some sheiks will d-smash you when you tech near the edge, by not going too close you can hold down and end up grabbing the ledge. If they f-tilt instead....that could suck, but if you're at a lower percent and DI away then she probably won't be able to follow-up on you. Or you can hold down and keep yourself grounded. You may stilll get pushed far enough that you may just end up grabbing the ledge anyway. Still, most of this stuff you can just tech it straight up and not have do deal with the other stuff that I just mentioned. Still, nobody's perfect so gotta have backup plans.
I love grabbing in general with falco. It's obviously not as good as fox's grab comparatively in most matchups, but it's still decent and a lot of opportunities come up. That being said, I like shine-grab, but sheik should be trying to WD oos vs falco before he starts pressuring. If they chill in shield a lot, then by all means go for the shine-grab.
edit: just got home now. Adding more as we speak.
So you asked what specific openings I look for. It depends on how the sheik is playing in general. I always try to force sheik in the air. If they play a(n) air/platform game in general (auto-cancel f-air approach/camp, needle in the air, b-air. Stuff like that), then they are doing half the work for me. If they play like that, then I SH n-air to stuff aerials/punish landing lag or even space around aerials by jumping over them, or using platforms to attack from diagonal angles. If I attack from above, then I use reverse b-air and try to get the weak hit. When I land the n-air, then I combo that into shine/u-tilt at low-ish percents. If they're at higher percents then it'll probably send them off the stage which is good. If they're above 40% or so, then you can replace n-air with dash attack if you want. It's easier to land, but it's unsafe even if you hit when they're at lower percents. If you hit it at the right percent, then you can combo it into itself a few times, or make them land on a platform for a free tech chase. If they DI in, you can usually get an u-tilt out of it. Something to note in this matchup about: comboing shine -> shine -> waveland is usually bad vs sheik. Just do generic shine -> d-air -> shine/u-tilt. I'm saying this because I see a lot of good falcos do it and then lose their potential combo completely vs sheik and many other non-space animal/falcon characters. Also, any time you can land a u-tilt, then you probably should do it. Some common situations that come up that allow you to u-tilt are:
- they're trying really hard to get around the laser and go from above/platform
- you are standing under a platform and they are trying to get down from above
- you are doing a combo and they try to defend themself with a move
- calling an obvious dash attack/canceled grab (I got tope a lot with this), or I stuffed it with a jab or f-tilt (But alternatively, you can just jump over it anyway and get a free d-air, or sidestep -> shine).
- you get behind them somehow
- you get directly under them when they are trying to space aerials/shoot needles
If you hit a laser close enough, especially if they're in the air, then you can combo it into shine, or various other moves. You can also attempt to psuedo-combo the laser into n-air and see if you can get a big combo off of it at lower percents.
If sheik is playing mostly grounded, then I look for grabs, because they are really easy to get since you can force them to shield/stop moving completely. You can also DD -> grab on whiffed aerials. u-throw is usually the best bet since it forces her above you. You can also react to the DI and hit with an aerial. If they're trying to DD grab you a lot (like Kirbykaze
), then that's the time to overshoot d-air/n-air. Alternatively you can obviously laser them to make them cut that **** out. Oh yeah, also what I like to do sometimes is throw an aerial very short, then shine/sidestep -> shine them when they try to grab. Now, if they PS the laser while DDing, don't run straight in unless you managed to jump over your own laser. If they are on the ground, then low lasers are generally better. If they are in the air, then mid/high laser. It's much worse on you for them to run under your laser than it is from them to jump over it. Her jump is high including her SH and her air mobility sucks, so you can abuse that sometimes.
If they are near an edge, just throw her off. Her air mobility sucks, so you can usually bait her into taking defensive options, whereas if she doesn't then you can just take the ledge. If she does attack, then you can b-air/d-air her and she should be dead or be taking a massive combo for landing on the stage. Also, around 60-90%, if sheik DIs inward when you b-throw her off, you can combo d-air sometimes straight off a throw because of the lasers that hit. If they DI away then the lasers will sometimes miss them and they go off the stage with bad DI, and they should lose a stock for that. If the lasers still hit when they DI away, you can still combo into d-air sometimes acutally. <_<
Of course this isn't all set in stone and there is an answer to most of this stuff, but that's competitive games for you. Also, there's a lot of variables in smash so I have probably forgotten some other details and scenarios.
But yeah, for now: I never have trouble with sheik's shield pressure, unless they know that I'm gonna chill in shield and they go for a grab, or if I blatantly mess up/get shield stabbed (my shield fails a lot so it's kinda aggravating). Something to keep in mind though, is that her low n-air breaks even on shield, so don't do anything unless you're sure that they're gonna try to grab/bait you. But yeah, I sometimes do small approaches with shield if I see them jump around a lot to try and mess with their spacing and see if I can get a shine oos, or and aerial punish. If it looks like it won't work, then I'll either WD back oos, or jump to a platform so that I can reset to neutral position. If they space bad on your shield, then shine oos all day. If they space well on your shield, you usually can WD back oos after they do a jab/tilt on your shield. It's so much better than rolling. Still, rolling back is not too bad of an option. Just don't spam it ofc.
Sheik combos are a major issue. Theoretically, you should die off of one good hit from sheik, assuming that they don't mess up (due to reactive tech chases and stuff). But of course it doesn't happen like that. Yknow, human error and stuff. Still, sheik is one of those characters that has a lot of leeway for following techs and stuff because she has a good combination of speed and range. The main way that I try to avoid sheik combos is simply by being near a platform, or even the edge sometimes (so risky, but at low percent I'm really confident that I won't get gimped). When I get hit, I try to edge-cancel off platforms if the percent is right. If I know that I will get hit by dash attack, or f-tilt when I'm on the ground, then I try to DI down and tech (that double stick tech, or w/e it's called), or CC them and then shine.
If she's already got me in tech chasing positions, then what I usually do is mix up DIs, and tech whichever way will get me the most distance from sheik, or in place (DI away + tech away a few times. Or DI in + tech in. Or even tech in place with those DIs). I also do a certain slight DI that makes it look ambiguous to whether I'm going to go behind them or not and then tech in place (it's a good 50/50 mixup). Also, not teching is good sometimes when you get knocked down since you can SDI jab resets, or get them to try and guess what you're gonna do. Watching the opponent is key a lot of the time with this stuff, because a lot of players have tendencies to move around, or sometimes do preemptive things like shield and stuff. So sometimes you can catch them with get up attacks, or rolling away because they shielded or something. Assess the situation and go from there. Very commonly though, the easiest way to stop tech chase lockdowns for me is to tech near the edge, but not close enough for them to dropzone you. Once you reach a certain distance near the edge, you can DI and edge-cancel so that you don't have to tech. Since spacies have an amazing ledge-WD and various good ledge options, it works out. Just don't mess up, or you're gonna lose your stock. Alternatively, sicne some sheiks will d-smash you when you tech near the edge, by not going too close you can hold down and end up grabbing the ledge. If they f-tilt instead....that could suck, but if you're at a lower percent and DI away then she probably won't be able to follow-up on you. Or you can hold down and keep yourself grounded. You may stilll get pushed far enough that you may just end up grabbing the ledge anyway. Still, most of this stuff you can just tech it straight up and not have do deal with the other stuff that I just mentioned. Still, nobody's perfect so gotta have backup plans.
I love grabbing in general with falco. It's obviously not as good as fox's grab comparatively in most matchups, but it's still decent and a lot of opportunities come up. That being said, I like shine-grab, but sheik should be trying to WD oos vs falco before he starts pressuring. If they chill in shield a lot, then by all means go for the shine-grab.
edit: just got home now. Adding more as we speak.
So you asked what specific openings I look for. It depends on how the sheik is playing in general. I always try to force sheik in the air. If they play a(n) air/platform game in general (auto-cancel f-air approach/camp, needle in the air, b-air. Stuff like that), then they are doing half the work for me. If they play like that, then I SH n-air to stuff aerials/punish landing lag or even space around aerials by jumping over them, or using platforms to attack from diagonal angles. If I attack from above, then I use reverse b-air and try to get the weak hit. When I land the n-air, then I combo that into shine/u-tilt at low-ish percents. If they're at higher percents then it'll probably send them off the stage which is good. If they're above 40% or so, then you can replace n-air with dash attack if you want. It's easier to land, but it's unsafe even if you hit when they're at lower percents. If you hit it at the right percent, then you can combo it into itself a few times, or make them land on a platform for a free tech chase. If they DI in, you can usually get an u-tilt out of it. Something to note in this matchup about: comboing shine -> shine -> waveland is usually bad vs sheik. Just do generic shine -> d-air -> shine/u-tilt. I'm saying this because I see a lot of good falcos do it and then lose their potential combo completely vs sheik and many other non-space animal/falcon characters. Also, any time you can land a u-tilt, then you probably should do it. Some common situations that come up that allow you to u-tilt are:
- they're trying really hard to get around the laser and go from above/platform
- you are standing under a platform and they are trying to get down from above
- you are doing a combo and they try to defend themself with a move
- calling an obvious dash attack/canceled grab (I got tope a lot with this), or I stuffed it with a jab or f-tilt (But alternatively, you can just jump over it anyway and get a free d-air, or sidestep -> shine).
- you get behind them somehow
- you get directly under them when they are trying to space aerials/shoot needles
If you hit a laser close enough, especially if they're in the air, then you can combo it into shine, or various other moves. You can also attempt to psuedo-combo the laser into n-air and see if you can get a big combo off of it at lower percents.
If sheik is playing mostly grounded, then I look for grabs, because they are really easy to get since you can force them to shield/stop moving completely. You can also DD -> grab on whiffed aerials. u-throw is usually the best bet since it forces her above you. You can also react to the DI and hit with an aerial. If they're trying to DD grab you a lot (like Kirbykaze
), then that's the time to overshoot d-air/n-air. Alternatively you can obviously laser them to make them cut that **** out. Oh yeah, also what I like to do sometimes is throw an aerial very short, then shine/sidestep -> shine them when they try to grab. Now, if they PS the laser while DDing, don't run straight in unless you managed to jump over your own laser. If they are on the ground, then low lasers are generally better. If they are in the air, then mid/high laser. It's much worse on you for them to run under your laser than it is from them to jump over it. Her jump is high including her SH and her air mobility sucks, so you can abuse that sometimes.If they are near an edge, just throw her off. Her air mobility sucks, so you can usually bait her into taking defensive options, whereas if she doesn't then you can just take the ledge. If she does attack, then you can b-air/d-air her and she should be dead or be taking a massive combo for landing on the stage. Also, around 60-90%, if sheik DIs inward when you b-throw her off, you can combo d-air sometimes straight off a throw because of the lasers that hit. If they DI away then the lasers will sometimes miss them and they go off the stage with bad DI, and they should lose a stock for that. If the lasers still hit when they DI away, you can still combo into d-air sometimes acutally. <_<
Of course this isn't all set in stone and there is an answer to most of this stuff, but that's competitive games for you. Also, there's a lot of variables in smash so I have probably forgotten some other details and scenarios.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
so how do u fight jigglypuff?
edit - i already taught u guys how to **** sheik. Nair -> shine -> immediate rising nair backwards out of shield grab range
she can't punish this, not with grab, not with nair OOS, not with anything
so now tell me how to fight jigglypuff
edit - i already taught u guys how to **** sheik. Nair -> shine -> immediate rising nair backwards out of shield grab range
she can't punish this, not with grab, not with nair OOS, not with anything
so now tell me how to fight jigglypuff
Bones0
Smash Legend
Most Falco players' solution is to go Fox, so that just throws the ball back into your court. lol
Or you can be PP and get Mahone practice. /jelly
Or you can be PP and get Mahone practice. /jelly
Veetaak
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure she could WD OoS --> grab or dash attack
bossa nova ♪
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2010
- Messages
- 2,876
sorry this is now off-topic and late as ****, but i do want to see what you think of this stuff...
maybe i'm not smart enough to know exactly what you're asking for, but i can give you a few examples from my recent experience using this move....
i was playing a ganondorf a couple of weeks ago and noticed how he was trying to stay mobile through my laser pressure with WDs oos. i moved towards his shield with a laser and when he tried to WD backwards oos, i did an aerial forward-b right after the laser(the aerial version has less landing lag, but is best used very close to the ground for max speed). he didn't expect it so he neither teched it (someone correct me if i'm wrong but if you get aerial phantasm'd by a falco, i'm pretty sure that whether you are grounded or not you can tech it because it hits you into the ground) and he DI'd it in the direction i was going because that's the way he was WDing, so i continued with a combo into something mean.
here's another example of a fox i was playing that was ****ed up by forward-b in the following way: at lowish percent i got him into a teching position on the lower right platform of BF. he teched to the outer side of the platform, i jumped up and shined him, and then immediately phantasm'd him, knocking him back down to the middle of the lower right platform. he missed the tech, while my phantasm cancelled on the opposite side of the top platform, from which i immediately fell with a reverse laser that forced his missed tech into wake up. i followed the laser reset with another phantasm off the inner edge of the lower left platform, which we all know cancels on the far side of the lower right platform. he missed the tech again, i DJ'd immediately after the cancel, dair'd him, and continued with follow ups. now... i know there were plenty of possible escapes (esp cuz he took too long to get up after the first phantasm), but i'm under the impression that unfamiliarity with forward-b allowed a lot of this to happen. the move is so scarcely used that sometimes people don't even take it seriously, and i find that whenever i randomly throw it in it's got a pretty high success rate.
i feel like there's a lot that goes into DI'ing it as well. shoutouts to magus, but i'm pretty even factors like what part of the phantasm the opponent is hit (in relation to weight of the opponent character obv) with affects the trajectory. coupled with the speed of the move, i think it's a viable surprise attack that can lead to many unexpected follow-ups and can be used safely if it's mix'd-up the right amount.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
help me fight spacies plz
pretend you are playing wario vs meta knight =D
OMFG so many posts to respond to!
In the meantime, just know that there will be no TO7 writeup because it can pretty much be summed up by me saying I played Hbox and overall I figured out some of my problem but much is still left to be thought at.
I suggest anyone reading to watch the TO7 MM between Hbox and I(for $100 and the points I got for placing first since it was a road to apex event so good apex seeding). It's pretty hype. =)
In the meantime, just know that there will be no TO7 writeup because it can pretty much be summed up by me saying I played Hbox and overall I figured out some of my problem but much is still left to be thought at.
I suggest anyone reading to watch the TO7 MM between Hbox and I(for $100 and the points I got for placing first since it was a road to apex event so good apex seeding). It's pretty hype. =)
does anyone have the link to the set?
Stevo
Smash Champion
yea I've been looking for it as well
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
weak uair -> utilt =) (stolen from raynex)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1W4M056TLOc#t=453s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=k9ZnzVviGao#t=304s
unfortunately it can be DIed out of relatively easily, but it's a great reset at the %s where Falco has a tough time continuing the combos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1W4M056TLOc#t=453s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=k9ZnzVviGao#t=304s
unfortunately it can be DIed out of relatively easily, but it's a great reset at the %s where Falco has a tough time continuing the combos.
Beat!
Smash Master
Yeah that combo was nuts. I was like wtf when I saw it.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Zhu keep playing, you make me want to play more
choknater
Smash Obsessed
that falco is so stylish
Veetaak
Smash Lord
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You can SHFFL single hit uair > up smash on Puff at every percent. Kind of funny.
edit:
As Fox.
edit:
As Fox.
ruhtraeel
Smash Ace
yeah I first saw ZhuV do that combo in the Ariquenuubs combo video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYgopUL8kk8#t=463s
S l o X
Smash Champion
bear.
that's awesome. i don't remember playing you but i do remember hearing your tag. i also remember a good asian marth who was probably TAI but I swear he looked younger than he actually is.
anywho, yea thats **** that i remember that. it was my first tournament. hope to play you at apex as well. heard you kind of ***** my state and almost beat swift. (;
Little England
Smash Master
SiN:Wrath
Smash Apprentice
I didnt get four stocked by your falco
I STOCK FOURED YOUR FALCO!
zelda beats falco cause kick is good and she has two so its double good
/infallible logic
You might have four stocked me with fox...but i made you rage quit on rainbow cruise ;D
boooooooooooooooosssssssssssssss
<3
OH this is thelake on a great friends account
unknown522
Some guy
woah woah woah. Raynex stole it from me
also, I finished the post.
yeah, I did 4 stock with falco as well (not in the MM though -_-). It was the game before you pulled that sexy *** combo on my mario with the f-smash -> dash attack -> dropzone f-air.
And yeah, you did beat me on RC during the MM.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Leaving out a little bit of important details are we? =P
unknown522
Some guy
probably. Smash has so many variables. It's awesome
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That's true.. Definitely which is why I like doubles more in this way, so much bull**** can happen lol.
Practice moving around and movement mixups. If you're playing Falco practice laser mixups like how high you do them when to double laser and how fast you do them in order to throw your opponent offguard and have lots of mixups ready to use in a given match. Practicing edge cancels and where exactly you can reach with things like FH Bair from where on the stage can be great too.
I practice lots of combos on Fox on FD for general Fox combo ideas and Falco anywhere just because he's hard to combo since he falls so fast and cpus DI in weird ways to give you practice vs weird DI.
Shield dropping is fantastic to practice right now as well.
Mango's Falco is his best character overall, but his Fox may fluctuate into being better than his Falco at certain times in certain matchups(a big part of why he picked up Fox I'm pretty sure).
<3333 Mexico!
No you can at least buffer an easy spotdodge or roll I'm almost positive but other than that I'm not sure what options you technically have. I just know I can usually roll away without getting grabbed. Just keep Marth away from right on top of your shield. Honestly that's a bad spacing for him anyway so WD OOS backward or upsmash OOS or even CC punish the Uair.
Well Peach's fastest viable move after FC'ing is jab so you could spam shield grab while holding down and get a CC Dtilt off(or other stuff if you time it well), or you could wait for the jab to hit your shield then roll/jump/spotdodge I guess but it loses to Dsmash/aerial or upsmash OOS if it's one jab then waiting or trying to grab I think.
Not sure about shield speed but I imagine it's the same....
Spamming is usually better but if you can learn the timing that may be easier so Marth doesn't know how tight his timing has to be. Could get you more surprise shines that way.
I think upthrow to Fsmash stops working at like some low-mind 70%. That's my instinct on it though and hasn't been tested much haha.
yeah it was ****
Good stuff man! Don't lose to him anymore now though <3
Aight I'll see what I can do. =pHi PP I will MM $20.
just come to the regional in March in WA. =D
F yeah <3
I wish your adjustments were recorded because knowing what transitioned could be very helpful in determining what you still didn't learn.
I don't mind Sheik usually I just have to remember to respect her SH Fair and I'm usually okay after that. I just never think she'll do a move while invincible and she always hits me with it rofl.
I'll see if you're satisfied with Unknown's advice or not before offering my own. I've played it in tournament and vs Twitch enough to know some good stuff.
You don't have to be SUPER patient haha, just patient enough to bait out a move, which can be engaging if you do it well/in a tricky enough fashion. Don't make it a chore if you can help it....makes everything so much more fun and intuitive in my experience.
and lol Mario dittos <3
Locking down is keeping her landing/walking walled out with Bair mostly or lasers and approach threats/commitments obviously, and the big thing is just knowing how to apply those moves. Sheik wants to Fair then you shoot her or try to get under her/Bair her(getting under her is hard because it's usually well spaced so I just try to get on her landing lag or Bair or shoot). If she's taking lasers to Ftilt I find great joy in Fsmashing those people because you can still be safe if you space the Fsmash and they shield lol. Um otherwise just keep her from spacing Fair well with zoning or lasers and CC/bait to **** tilts.
Dairs usually come from making shield pressure work to get rolls/shield stabbing/catching them OOS or you bait their move and punish or go through it if it's like a jab lol. Basically, the Dairs won't come unless you're playing more of the matchup correctly and understanding Sheik's zones and how to exploit her.
Unknown ***** combo stuff and maybe pressure stuff I forgot. Try not to get tipper upsmashed(aka DI Ftilts away at like 80-90% or something or just stay off of platforms on YS and FoD if you can) for super early free kills but ultimately you just have to trick the Sheik player.
You can still approach Sheiks you just have to understand her as a character in order to approach. Sheik likes zoning with Fairs and tilts. Often a tilt can follow a Fair. Fair is usually approaching but if it is retreating then it is just meant to counter your approach and it shouldn't feel threatening. The sooner you get her options squared away the sooner you can force patterns and push her spacing to want to drift back to tilt a lot to relieve pressure and then you get a sick Dair combo and things can often pick up fast from there since Sheik doesn't have a super fast approach option past dash attack.
Sheik is a lot like Peach in they have a stupid fast move OOS(Nair) to **** shield pressure but KK thinks it's overhyped so all I'll say is grabbing is great once you get Sheik to quit popping that option off(grabs are actually great vs Sheik in terms of reward because upthrow can combo or put her in a bad position....also throwing her offstage is bad times for her).
She usually throws them when you're at 0 and she comes up from the edge to give you damage when you try to jockey for position/laser so their tech chasing is easier. Shield/react lol.Can we go over needles? I freakin hate needles. Any tips on what to do about em?
Diagonal needles are beaten by double lasers so she can't throw them at you or getting under her when they are coming out. Don't shield diagonal needles because Sheik has MUCH less lag after throwing those. Just move a lot if she jumps with a charge.
Offstage you just have to kind of mix up how you recover and learn the times when Sheiks want to throw grounded or aerial needles. Usually you know what's happening if she jumps or if she stands still, so pay attention to how Sheik moves/doesn't move.
I'd never approach with shield what in the world.....but hey if it works then cool I suppose haha.Ahh, I see what you're saying zhu. I'll add more later. Cuz my friend needs his laptop to study math right now. When I get home in 2 hours. Also, I know I switch the writing style from "I"/"Me" to "you" a lot, so forgive me for that.
But yeah, for now: I never have trouble with sheik's shield pressure, unless they know that I'm gonna chill in shield and they go for a grab, or if I blatantly mess up/get shield stabbed (my shield fails a lot so it's kinda aggravating). But yeah, I do sometimes do small approaches with shield if I see them jump around a lot to try and mess with their spacing and see if I can get a shine oos, or and aerial punish. If it looks like it won't work, then I'll either WD back oos, or jump to a platform so that I can reset to neutral position. If they space bad on your shield, then shine oos all day. If they space well on your shield, you usually can WD back oos after they do a jab/tilt on your shield. It's so much better than rolling. Still, rolling back is not too bad of an option. Just don't spam it ofc.
Sheik combos are a major issue. Theoretically, you should die off of one good hit from sheik, assuming that they don't mess up (due to reactive tech chases and stuff). But of course it doesn't happen like that. Yknow, human error and stuff. Still, sheik is one of those characters that has a lot of leeway for following techs and stuff because she has a good combination of speed and range. The main way that I try to avoid sheik combos is simply by being near a platform, or even the edge sometimes (so risky, but at low percent I'm really confident that I won't get gimped). When I get hit, then I try to edge-cancel off platforms if the percent is right. If I know that I will get hit by dash attack, or f-tilt when I'm on the ground, then I try to DI down and tech, or CC them.
If she's already got me in tech chasing positions, then what I usually do is mix up DIs, and tech whichever way will get me the most distance from sheik, or in place (DI away + tech away a few times. Or DI in + tech in. Or even tech in place with those DIs). I also do a certain slight DI that makes it look ambiguous to whether I'm going to go behind them or not, and then tech in place (it's a good 50/50 mixup). Also, not teching is good sometimes when you get knocked down since you can SDI jab resets, or get them to try and guess what you're gonna do. Watching the opponent is key a lot of the time with this stuff, because a lot of players have tendencies to move around, or sometimes do preemptive things like shield and stuff. So sometimes you can catch them with get up attacks, or rolling away because they shielded or something. Assess the situation and go from there. Very commonly though, the easiest way to stop tech chase lockdowns for me is to tech near the edge, but not close enough for them to dropzone you. Once you reach a certain distance near the edge, you can DI and edge-cancel so that you don't have to tech. Since spacies have an amazing ledge-WD and various good ledge options, so it works out.
I love grabbing in general with falco. It's obviously not as good as fox's grab comparatively in most matchups, but it's still decent and a lot of opportunities come up. That being said, I like shine-grab, but sheik should be trying to WD oos vs falco before he starts pressuring. If they chill in shield a lot, then by all means go for the shine-grab.
edit: just got home now. Adding more as we speak.
So you asked what specific openings I look for. It depends on how the sheik is playing in general. I always try to force sheik in the air. If they play a(n) air/platform game in general (SH f-air approach/camp, needle in the air, b-air. Stuff like that), then they are doing half the work for me. If they play like that, then I SH n-air to stuff aerials/punish landing lag or even space around aerials by jumping over them, or using platforms to attack from diagonal angles. If I attack from above, then I use reverse b-air and try to get the weak hit. When I land the n-air combo that into shine at low-ish percents. If they're at higher percents then it'll probably send them off the stage which is good. One thing to note is that in this matchup comboing shine -> shine -> waveland is bad vs sheik. Just do generic shine -> d-air -> shine/u-tilt. I'm saying this because I see a lot of good falcos do it and then lose their potential combo completely vs sheik and many other non-space animal/falcon characters.
If sheik is playing mostly grounded, then I look for grabs, because they are really easy to get since you can force them to shield/stop moving completely. You can also DD -> grab on whiffed aerials. u-throw is usually the best bet since it forces her above you. You can also react to the DI and hit with an aerial. If they're trying to DD grab you a lot (like Kirbykaze
If they are near an edge, just throw her off. Her air mobility sucks, so you can usually bait her into taking defensive options, whereas if she doesn't then you can just take the ledge. If she does attack, then you can b-air/d-air her and she should be dead or be taking a massive combo for landing on the stage. Also, around 60-90%, if sheik DIs inward when you b-throw her off, you can combo d-air sometimes straight off a throw because of the lasers that hit. If they DI away then the lasers will miss them and they go off the stage with bad DI, and they should lose a stock for that.
Will Sheiks just let you aerial from platforms? Interesting.
I like Dair'ing grounded Sheiks just because they can't CC things but yeah grabs are cool if you can get em.
Wouldn't DD grab lose to Sheik Fair to Ftilt? I guess you could hold down to CC punish but then yomi mixups blah....do Sheiks shield after aerials much? I can't get them to do it a lot I don't think. Are there any spacing tricks you're using for that?
I'm still going back to your other post btw haha that junk was too good.
I already told you how.
That is not the way to beat Sheik btw. Not everything can be simplified to one sentence no matter how ideal it would be.
WTF I had 0 Mahone practice before beating Hbox at HERB 3 I had to get ***** by him for 1 whole year before I could win haha. If I ever get around to re-writing the puff matchup I'll explain how Falco can perform well vs Puff because I know a lot of stuff that I don't show well/at all vs Hbox. NOT A JOHN MERELY AN ATTEMPT AT ADVERTISING A MATCHUP EXPLANATION LATER. rofl disclaimers
I want to preface all of this by saying if someone calls an aerial forward B and they hit you(or they somehow hit it by accident) then you have no jump and could...die. That's super risky.
Side B is super fast and can give a pretty tight reward(bairs, smashes, Dairs), so I imagine getting that punish is roughly comparable to trying to get an approach anyway, so it's possible that the reward may not necessarily be greater than the risk involved, but with characters weighing different amounts and every surprise or unique trick sometimes required to pull out wins, I wouldn't be surprised if the spacing on this trick could be more negotiable than trying a Nair/Dair from relatively similar spacings. I doubt the slight startup on the side B is long enough for anyone to get hit by it that another approach, but maybe in matchups that force characters to move OOS faster like spacie matchups this could be just enough of a lag at a certain spacing to screw with someone's conditioning and catch them offguard occasionally. Edge canceling the side B obviously makes it pretty safe since there's no nasty ending lag. Whether there are many setups for edge cancel side Bs in combos or combo startups without shine are unknown to me atm, and I'd much rather use standard combo moves that I can cover most/all options with on reaction than bank on catching another good player with a solid reaction time off guard with side B. This is a fairly specific situation though and only one type of situation you mentioned, but anecdotal evidence is only so useful for proving a point. Try to further your ideas in how side B can be used generally or how the mechanic can work differently from a standard approach/combo starter and why it could be a viable mixup/gimmick and how often said technique could be used.
.....I should have separated this into paragraphs LOL I'm sorry man. <3
Yeah I forgot about doing that even though I thought of it a while ago. I guess until people catch onto the little gimmick it's pretty good haha.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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I've been thinking lately that Falco wins against Puff. I'd like to hear your detailed thoughts on that sometime.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Why do you think Falco > Puff? To me it looked pretty even more or less.
Floaties aren't really my specialty since the floatiest character I really play is Marth so I'm really trying to understand them. There's a weird dynamic in FF'ers vs floaties wherein the FF'er just kind of dances on the floaty and gets a few reads and ***** then the floaty gets one read and ***** harder/equally hard, but the FF'er gets a movement boost to kind of deal with the read "disadvantage." Mango mentioned this in his blog by the way(save the mobility helping FF'ers part), which is where my base for this theory comes from.
Falco is super weird because he's not really fast unless he's falling but he gets lasers to kiiiind of be fast and control space well enough to not really make puff slower but make her be slow in a more...limited area. Then the following question is whether that is worth it or not and exactly how hard one punish one way is relative to vice versa.
I'd feel a lot better about this thought process if there was a Puff that knew how to be more aggressive in this metagame that was also good against Falco(unlike Mango's Puff sadly). I'll have to hard theorycraft about how Puff can crack Falco's wall based on how I was trying to get Hbox to weave around some defensive setups I put out there in addition to the earlier problem I haven't quite worked out yet.
I'm sorry this wasn't necessarily informative but it is part of the outline I'd use(hopefully without getting overly specific in situations like I tend to do XD).
Edit: but yeah I hope I flesh it out eventually too haha
I've always thought puff had an inherent advantage over falco simply because it's so incredibly easy for her to rest the vast majority of his moves. Then again, falco straight shuts down her camp game with his lasers.
Maybe it's just an even matchup?
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I think CC is the most important factor vs sheik. more so than in any other matchup in the game.
Just because, she doesn't have a bonafide anti-CC move or tactic like most other characters.
She doesn't have a "uncrouchable" move (like spacies dair). She doesn't the mechnics of 0 lag/cooldown (like peach), she doesn't have unpunishable range/spacing habits in situations that she is frequently exposed to (like marth/puff)
So in a sense, having a strong crouch cancel game is the most important thing about fighting sheik imo. You can just eat damage from her stray hits and turn them into death combos sometimes.
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um Zhu mentioned something about getting out of her pressure strings or something and here is the Rock-paper-System to beating sheik I've found. the most common way she leads into shield pressure is fair- > something. If you shield the fair it usualy goes down like this (this all assumes spacing that doesn't allow shine oos. if you can shine oos, go for it):
fair jab- to me it seems like fair jab will beat/disrupt anything oos you try to do in between requiring a jump. So you have to shield the jab and shield grab after
fair ftilt- if they ftilt after the fair, dair them in the face every. single. time. if its SUPER DUPER spaced, laser oos and work from there.
fair downsmash-> they will usually only do this if you are at high percent and they are hoping for a poke. wd OOS and shine them at low percents, or if they are at medium-high percent, just dair combo oos
fair uptilt-> this wont happen so often, just because they hae to be right in your face to do it so it runs a heay spacing risk for them. Still, if they find they hae mispaced into you, they will usually uptilt. You have wait until after the second hit, and then shine real quick. Uptilt on shield doesn't have much cooldown.
fair grab-> this is a tricky one to deal with. All the options they have you can literally just hold your shield and react and punish them hard. With this one, holding your shield will get you killed. So you have to roll/dodge out i think. Depending on where their fair hits your shield, you can grab them first but idk how reliable that is.
Fair into a quick dash away/pivot grab -> this is how they will try to beat you when you try to grab them or dair oos or shine oos (when u land) probably. I usualy just try to GTFO if they are using this mixup. either jump away, wavedash back, roll back.
I'm not sure you can directly challenge this, or if you should even be trying to.
this is how I look at sheik's pressure "flow chart" if you will. hopefully some people find it useful and stuff, but most of this should be pretty well known/standard.
edit: goddamit, my "v" button sucks
Just because, she doesn't have a bonafide anti-CC move or tactic like most other characters.
She doesn't have a "uncrouchable" move (like spacies dair). She doesn't the mechnics of 0 lag/cooldown (like peach), she doesn't have unpunishable range/spacing habits in situations that she is frequently exposed to (like marth/puff)
So in a sense, having a strong crouch cancel game is the most important thing about fighting sheik imo. You can just eat damage from her stray hits and turn them into death combos sometimes.
-
um Zhu mentioned something about getting out of her pressure strings or something and here is the Rock-paper-System to beating sheik I've found. the most common way she leads into shield pressure is fair- > something. If you shield the fair it usualy goes down like this (this all assumes spacing that doesn't allow shine oos. if you can shine oos, go for it):
fair jab- to me it seems like fair jab will beat/disrupt anything oos you try to do in between requiring a jump. So you have to shield the jab and shield grab after
fair ftilt- if they ftilt after the fair, dair them in the face every. single. time. if its SUPER DUPER spaced, laser oos and work from there.
fair downsmash-> they will usually only do this if you are at high percent and they are hoping for a poke. wd OOS and shine them at low percents, or if they are at medium-high percent, just dair combo oos
fair uptilt-> this wont happen so often, just because they hae to be right in your face to do it so it runs a heay spacing risk for them. Still, if they find they hae mispaced into you, they will usually uptilt. You have wait until after the second hit, and then shine real quick. Uptilt on shield doesn't have much cooldown.
fair grab-> this is a tricky one to deal with. All the options they have you can literally just hold your shield and react and punish them hard. With this one, holding your shield will get you killed. So you have to roll/dodge out i think. Depending on where their fair hits your shield, you can grab them first but idk how reliable that is.
Fair into a quick dash away/pivot grab -> this is how they will try to beat you when you try to grab them or dair oos or shine oos (when u land) probably. I usualy just try to GTFO if they are using this mixup. either jump away, wavedash back, roll back.
I'm not sure you can directly challenge this, or if you should even be trying to.
this is how I look at sheik's pressure "flow chart" if you will. hopefully some people find it useful and stuff, but most of this should be pretty well known/standard.
edit: goddamit, my "v" button sucks