PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[~Twitch~]

well i'm not going to apex....lol but i'm probably going to tipped off so...that'll be my first legit OOS experience.

 

[Battlecow]

I bet mango goes hard

he's got too much to prove right now

Granted, he probably didn't practice hardcore for months beforehand, but it's still tryhard mango.

 

[Divinokage]

The only thing he needs proving is that he's going to be sent to the shadow realm one more time.

 

[Mogwai]

I bet mango goes hard

he's got too much to prove right now

Granted, he probably didn't practice hardcore for months beforehand, but it's still tryhard mango.

one of the things you have to realize about Mango is that he has nothing to prove at this point. having something to prove is a mindset, and Mango simply doesn't have that mindset. kit doesn't give a flying **** what people say about him in comments on youtube/smashboards.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

one of the things you have to realize about Mango is that he has nothing to prove at this point. having something to prove is a mindset, and Mango simply doesn't have that mindset. kit doesn't give a flying **** what people say about him in comments on youtube/smashboards.

he really does, or he wouldn't have made a long *** blog about losing and such, or he wouldn't have done that LONGGG *** interview explaining why he stopped trying so much (people gave him **** for the loss on kage hard), i guarantee the kid reads the boards still, hell i bet he namesearches still.

i think he cares way more than you think

 

[bossa nova ♪]

i don't buy that mango doesn't give a ****

at least, i don't buy it anymore



maybe after he finally got his d*** wet that became more true


but i lost mad respect for that b**** after that blogpost.

godDAMN that was John City. and it's like he wrote it for *******. i mean, we have ****ing eyes u f***n coasta rican n*****, we know you were just rebelling against the gayest tournament of all time, y u gotta soil it.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

maybe after he finally got his d*** wet that became more true

hahahaha

such an under rated point, but i guarantee it has value
oh milktea

 

[FrenchToasts]

Hi Dr. PP, would Kongo/cruise be a good counterpick against Samus?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Cruise absolutely.

Kongo yes but only if you wanted to hard camp Samus.

 

[FrenchToasts]

can you give me some tips against samus please

 

[BigD!!!]

a bit of my thoughts on the subconscious adjusting shrouded was talking about

in my experience, it is possible to subconsciously adjust to timings and habits that the other player is using a lot, albeit not as quickly as you likely would consciously. however, what seems to be the slowest to subconsciously change are your own predictable behaviors that are being punished

it might just be a problem i have, but i can figure out tech patterns and roll/spotdodge/recovery habits pretty well without devoting a lot of effort to analyzing habits. what i cant do without making a huge effort is stop myself from acting on my own tech/roll/spotdodge/recovery habits

i find myself still somewhat paying attention to the other person, and ignoring the huge hole im leaving in my own actions

might just be me though

 

[Scythe]

Hey checked this thread out a couple times in the past and finally got a video of mine for critiquing up on youtube( just never really played on a recording setup)

this was a MM set, feels like i'm bursting with flaws all over the place would love to have it critiqued.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8P5XBffHak

it's a Bo5 no need to watch the whole thing if you don't want to. Thanks in advance.

 

[BigD!!!]

dont grab when he misses a forward b at 129%

im loading more on my slow internet

edit: focus more on knocking him off the stage and making more of it when you do. a couple times during combos you went for things which do more damage, but knocked him around on the level or back across it rather than just hitting him off the stage and going for edgeguards

when you do knock falcon off the stage, dont grab the ledge unless he cant make it back. his up b is bad, you dont need ledge invincibility to deal with it. just bair above where he can up b, or fsmash if he goes by the ledge. by grabbing the ledge so many times, you let him get past you, which gives you at best a hit back across the stage instead of an edgeguard

good **** though scythe, juggleguy looks like hes stepped way up since ive been gone

 

[FrootLoop]

I like what pp said about getting a gameplan, as it's something I've been trying to develop in order to make what I need to improve clearer and also to hopefully be more of an active shaper of my playstyle.
However, I have a hard time coming up with a gameplan against spacies. In other matchups I see progress in coming up with a gameplan, but against fox and falco I still feel like I just push buttons and react to whatever seemingly random situation happens once both players finally get near each other. I don't feel like I play terribly relative to other matchups, but I cannot identify any practical goals that I play towards against spacies. Even watching spacie videos I cannot really identify a gameplan from either player.

any advice/thoughts?

 

[Sinji]

he really does, or he wouldn't have made a long *** blog about losing and such, or he wouldn't have done that LONGGG *** interview explaining why he stopped trying so much (people gave him **** for the loss on kage hard), i guarantee the kid reads the boards still, hell i bet he namesearches still.

i think he cares way more than you think

Don't worry, if Mango doesn't try at Apex, he will try afterwards.

 

[Dr Peepee]

can you give me some tips against samus please

CC her tilts, camping against her doesn't work unless it's a CP stage usually, but you have to respect her defense. Don't go in "hard" on her shield much because of up-B OOS, and Dair often to beat her CC. Past 40%, Dair combos into Dair and other moves on the ground so use that if at all possible. Be patient when Samus is offstage and rack damage with lasers. Also remember that Samus is in lots of lag when she uses a bomb so you could kill her off of one if she bombs too close to the stage. Also sometimes Samus will charge a charge shot just to scare you, so be sure to stick to your game and not freak out.

I like what pp said about getting a gameplan, as it's something I've been trying to develop in order to make what I need to improve clearer and also to hopefully be more of an active shaper of my playstyle.
However, I have a hard time coming up with a gameplan against spacies. In other matchups I see progress in coming up with a gameplan, but against fox and falco I still feel like I just push buttons and react to whatever seemingly random situation happens once both players finally get near each other. I don't feel like I play terribly relative to other matchups, but I cannot identify any practical goals that I play towards against spacies. Even watching spacie videos I cannot really identify a gameplan from either player.

any advice/thoughts?

Well, some good things to keep in mind may be:

-what moves do you commonly get hit by/what moves are common for that character to use? how do you counter those moves with your own/movement?

-how do you want to abuse stage control against this character?

-how do you handle this character's platform game/how do you want to use platforms?

-when do you want to laser?

-what sort of OOS options do you guys have on each other? how do you bait/stuff these options from your opponent and mix up your own?



there's more but that should be enough to get you started anyway.

 

[FoxLisk]

i like to grab samus a lot. you cant do anything to her while she's in shield so you have to make sure she doesnt feel safe in shield.

also baiting up-b's is good if they're at all predictive. some sami will only up-b in reaction to you hitting their shield, but some will up-b to try to hit you out of things or just get nervous on the trigger. if you can bait an up-b you can almost always get a clean hit or at least a serious positional advantage.

 

[silentSWAG]

i like to think simpler than that. i ask myself "why did i get hit". then i keep asking myself that question. then look for patterns, then find my bad habits.

 

[FoxLisk]

i like to think simpler than that. i ask myself "why did i get hit". then i keep asking myself that question. then look for patterns, then find my bad habits.

i actually like 'why did i not hit him' better. for a couple reasons:

1) if you did an attack and it missed, why did you do it? if it's because you predicted wrong, figure out what he ACTUALLY did there and correct
2) if you didnt do an attack and you could have, why not? what were you afraid of, and did you need to be? e.g. he's coming down from the top platform and makes it safely, could you have clipped his landing with a laser or baired him or something?
3) if it's because you got hit, did you have an option that would have allowed you to hit him instead? e.g. did you spot dodge when you could have utilted? did you try to reverse laser when you should have interrupted him with a bair?
4) because "pressure wins games" as that LAAkuma video guy put it.

no, it doesn't help you focus on things like having unpredictable techs or movement patterns, but i feel like emphasizing hitting the other guy over not letting him hit you has a higher payoff.

this might just be because aggression is a weak point in my game and not a universally better thing to focus on, but i thought i'd put it out there.

 

[Pi]

nope none of that works at all ever
samus hard counters falco
nothing u can do
better CP

 

[ShroudedOne]

Samus simply shuts down the conventional Falco.

 

[Strong Badam]

samus 80-20 falco

 

[JPOBS]

lookin like falcon boards up in here

 

[ShroudedOne]

lookin like falcon boards up in here

Samus Falcon is also 80:20.

 

[Strong Badam]

oh come on, it's 90:10. Falcon can't reflect missiles like Falco can.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i actually like 'why did i not hit him' better. for a couple reasons:

1) if you did an attack and it missed, why did you do it? if it's because you predicted wrong, figure out what he ACTUALLY did there and correct
2) if you didnt do an attack and you could have, why not? what were you afraid of, and did you need to be? e.g. he's coming down from the top platform and makes it safely, could you have clipped his landing with a laser or baired him or something?
3) if it's because you got hit, did you have an option that would have allowed you to hit him instead? e.g. did you spot dodge when you could have utilted? did you try to reverse laser when you should have interrupted him with a bair?
4) because "pressure wins games" as that LAAkuma video guy put it.

no, it doesn't help you focus on things like having unpredictable techs or movement patterns, but i feel like emphasizing hitting the other guy over not letting him hit you has a higher payoff.

this might just be because aggression is a weak point in my game and not a universally better thing to focus on, but i thought i'd put it out there.

I feel like I made a post saying that you should also ask why you got a hit if you got one lately, but I didn't think about whiffing one you tried to hit. Yeah I do that too now so it's good you put it out there. =)

 

[FoxLisk]

I feel like I made a post saying that you should also ask why you got a hit if you got one lately, but I didn't think about whiffing one you tried to hit. Yeah I do that too now so it's good you put it out there. =)

yeah, it's something i learned when KP would DD grab me over 9000 times a game, to pay really close attention to the differences between when his DD grabs worked and when they didnt, and I apply that idea in way more situations now.

maybe now that i have a second opinion people will take me seriously #doctorjokes

 

[Pi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u1QKU0GBgg

 

[Dr Peepee]

I saw a cute Chops shine waveland

*steals

 

[Pi]

no
no learning from this. only despair.

 

[ShroudedOne]

This is basically fighting games and improvement 101(from my perspective), which means I could talk for ages about this particular topic the way you phrased it, but I'll hit some high points and try to explain a little from there.

Do you have a set plan for every matchup and the way to play to your best ability effectively? If you don't, then maybe you're just picking out a few vague strategies and/or waiting to react to your opponent. Honestly, if you have a plan then you should know exactly why you got hit or why you got a hit. Your plan was either a success, you failed execution(at anything below top level this still seems relevant in Melee), or your game plan needs revision. When you watch a video of yourself, can you see what you're looking to punish or what opponent movements/spacings make you feel comfortable to approach? Can you see why you chose to retreat or why you jumped out of your shield at that exact moment?

I have a few things in most MU that I know I should do, and I tell myself to do them. Like floating over lasers and CGs for Falco. Set plan? I don't think I'd call that a set plan. More like a thin framework. When I'm watching a vid of myself, I can only tell what I'm going for in specific instances. I can't see what I'm looking for in terms of a larger picture, if that makes sense.

If you can explain all of your actions, then you're left with a game plan that makes sense to you. When you play, you know exactly how you're supposed to play and why playing that way is good. If you feel lost when you play, then of course you're still probably struggling to figure out your game plan or making it up on the fly. You can't devote time to reading your opponent if you're barely sure of what you're going to do.

Yes, but I feel as though I'm just horrid at sticking to preset plans. I go into every match with a few guidelines, and as for the rest, I let the pace of the match dictate that. Perhaps this is a bad idea?

If you somehow adapt in between games despite somewhat autopiloting, then maybe you internalized some information without knowing it(like your brain registered how many times someone DD'd before attacking without you explicitly committing that to memory or recognizing the habit). I imagine it works roughly the same as consciously internalizing information but it's much easier to "forget" even in one sitting. It also probably varies more with emotion as the information is probably also easier to remember when tied with the emotion you were feeling when you made the "read" before.


Okay enough bad rambling and theorizing lol.

I see what you mean. But that's even hard for me to put into context of my own matches, since I don't evaluate my process for internalizing information after matches, ever. Perhaps this is a good thing, or a bad thing. But when I read your posts, I realize the importance of knowing why you do things, and in what ways you need to do them. So perhaps it's simply a matter of me having to know what I was going for when I re-watch a match, not necessarily being conscious of my decision during the match.

EDIT: Also, DruggedFox, the blog post you linked from Wobbles was pretty insightful. Thanks for that. Here's the link again if anyone is interested, or reads this: http://eskimosister.blogspot.com/2011_07_01_archive.html

 

[FoxLisk]

Chops' play is awesomely fluid but he's also consistently far too aggressive. fun to watch anyway.

 

[Winston]

I just wish he wouldn't miss the finisher during his 7 hit dair sprees so often.

 

[Pi]

^he didn't on me lol
he dair'd me a whole stock @.@

 

[Niko45]

I just wish he wouldn't miss the finisher during his 7 hit dair sprees so often.

LOL that definitely sums up chops

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Watching chops play is inspiring

 

[Pi]

no god damnit
despair! DESPAIR!

 

[leffen]

I was thoroughly disappointed in chops play... so many stupid moves, decisions and a bad gameplan overall was all I saw tbh. I saw one decent combo out of oh so many hit dairs, and that was after plup didnt tech his dair->dair for the 103810398103810381038108 time and DI'd his dash attack horribly =/.

Maybe I'm just hella cynical, but when I heard people talk about Chops in the past I never thought of someone who spammed (almost always, unnecessary) lasers and dairs and hoped that they couldnt PS or tech

edit: I watched this thinking it was pools and that the lambchops tag in the title was a joke lol. It seriously looks like he has played for 3 months, spamming early dairs, smashes at 10%, bad and predictable recovery, spammed rolls when the opponent respawned (he did 1 roll immidiately followed by another one EVERY STOCK HE TOOK except for the first one)
Honestly, I was sad when I found out it was the real lambchops

 

[JonnyW]

Dr.Peepee you should go falcon at Apex and **** M2K's sheik. You would be my hero.

What are my options as falco against a sheik that corners me against the ledge with tilts?
If I move forward I get tilted, jabbed, grabed, or dash attacked. Moving off the ledge is scary because of her needles/fair/nair. I feel cornered and doomed when a sheik has me against the ledge.

 

[FoxLisk]

I was thoroughly disappointed in chops play... so many stupid moves, decisions and a bad gameplan overall was all I saw tbh. I saw one decent combo out of oh so many hit dairs, and that was after plup didnt tech his dair->dair for the 103810398103810381038108 time and DI'd his dash attack horribly =/.

Maybe I'm just hella cynical, but when I heard people talk about Chops in the past I never thought of someone who spammed (almost always, unnecessary) lasers and dairs and hoped that they couldnt PS or tech

edit: I watched this thinking it was pools and that the lambchops tag in the title was a joke lol. It seriously looks like he has played for 3 months, spamming early dairs, smashes at 10%, bad and predictable recovery, spammed rolls when the opponent respawned (he did 1 roll immidiately followed by another one EVERY STOCK HE TOOK except for the first one)
Honestly, I was sad when I found out it was the real lambchops

maybe it takes some context. I'm not chops fan by a long shot but he did some innovative things with his laser game.... back in like 06. Still I feel like there is some insight into lasering, if nothing else, to be learned from his style.