PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[PEEF!]

SMYM Livestream is now up, thought you guys might enjoy some of Midwest's finest.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/peefsmash

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kage please change your name back. Please.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage please change your name back. Please.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Mogwai]

his name has been divinokage for literally as long as I can remember

 

[Mr.-0]

I thought his name was KageMurphy or something.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh nvm. I thought "Aldwyn McCloud" was a name change of kage. For some reason i thought his posts on the last page belonged to kage (i guess i assume every purple text is kage xD)


ignore that last post i guess.

 

[choknater]

i think hydro kirby aka miharu aka kage should've kept his kage name, so we could have a norcal vs canada divine shadow rivalry.

 

[Divinokage]

i think hydro kirby aka miharu aka kage should've kept his kage name, so we could have a norcal vs canada divine shadow rivalry.

lol.. A swift kick to the face is all I need.

 

[Dr Peepee]

In martial arts thinking is not supposed to happen because a person who thinks is not fast enough in a fight. As a result (at least in Chinese martial arts) the training consists in conditioning the body so that it will automatically react in a certain way when the fight occurs.

In a similar way, I think people who play instinctively have an easier time dealing with Melee's hardcore speed and the extremely high amount of information they have to process. At least as far as the "technical" aspects of the game are concerned (knowing timings, spacing, priority, etc.).

I've always thought knowledge of the game data is somewhat trivial, and I've been surprised lately by the amount of information the other Italians are, unlike me, aware of. There's no need to know the frames in which Falco can be shield grabbed during pillaring, as long as you know that pillaring is not invincible. And there is no need to know at which % certain comboes can be landed as long as you have the natural skill to follow up an enemy and keep a combo going.

Lately, however, I've started to think that active thinking can be very helpful while playing. If on the other hand it means drawing some of your attention from the "instinctive" side of the game, on the other one I think it might be more effective in preventing stupid behaviour on your part as well as in finding out and exploiting your opponent's habits.

In a nutshell, the way I see it is: Instinct helps you understanding the game (spacing, timings, priorities, etc.), Logic helps you understand your opponent (habits, good/bad decisions, etc.).

I actually agree with pretty much all of this. When you're fully focusing on a match, and all of that pressure is there, it's hard to think through everything you're going to do(but I think this is supposed to change actually once you become super good so stay tuned on this thought) so people tend to resort to what they already know about the matchup/opponent and don't try to take in more new stuff so much as play off of what they know as best as they can.

No matter who you are though, if you're good you're going to study videos at least a little and learn some stuff from them. There's always something you can get from taking an outside perspective to things I believe.

I think both instinctual and knowledge based approaches are good. Knowledge based has a better rate of improvement, simply because its easier to analyse what went wrong and find a solution. Instinctual is better in the short term and generally gives you an advantage against someone of the same amount of skill.


As for not having time to think and play at the same time, I somewhat disagree. I have found myself a sort of short hand for playing and thinking at the same time. During downtime of mutual dash dancing and non-active movement I can organize my thoughts of previous conflicts and determine patterns to exploit later.

Instinct propelled players like Mango and Ken to the top, so I think it's fair to say that instinct-based play can be just as effective as knowledge-based play.

Also that last part is somewhat how I feel about learning while playing. Again, sometimes this is a difficult thing to achieve under high pressure, but top players are supposed to be able to handle such things and play the same regardless.

because of the nature of ic's, the amount of tactics they can use is constantly expanding. so using them effectively is a matter of dedicated experimentation and application, which really does require just straight up knowledge and having to think a lot. i was always an instinctive player and based myself off chudat vids, and that's great for any starting ic's

but thinking about all their options and just doing things like... inventing new walls/mixups really helps. for ic's it really does require a bit of a balance.

knowing when to wd in = instinct all the way. no one sees that **** coming (unless they do.)

I have never considered the idea of character-based adjustments for this theory, but I suppose it's possible. With the amount of knowledge about the game expanding, it may be that players these days have to exercise their knowledge-based learning a little more than before in order to keep up with new information coming out(either of their own character or their opponents').

On the flip side, players like Azen seem to be able to leave for long periods of time and come back and use their instinctive play to still keep up to a degree with their opponents. I feel like like those that rely on knowledge more are more hurt by a hiatus anyway, but that's probably an obvious point that I'm making there.

Thanks everybody for the replies, its been good food for thought ^_^

PP, you'll also be glad to know that right now I hate falco vs marth (as falco), so you can laugh >___>

All my approaches constantly got shut down, it was obnoxious as hell. Then I was like "What would PP do?" and ended up just wavedashing really fast back and forth until marth did something silly =P

hehe

Ya the more you play, the more you get consistent in the warrior spirit's case. It helped me Jv 5 someone today in Ganon/Falcon, I so wish it was recorded omg.. lol.

=D

That's a problem I constantly have too, in fact in this period I tend to play the match up in a "the more you run, the more you win" way. However I don't feel it to be the best approach to the problem as running away means constantly leaving room to Marth while Falco's strenght is supposed to be in pressure/stage control.

You can play the game however you want to(within reason obviously) and be effective, but I've always been of the mind that whatever that involves should at least somewhat involve keeping stage control. Camping Marth is interesting in that he's forced to approach since he doesn't have a projectile, but it sucks in that Marth is **** at controlling the stage. Maybe it could work if you found a way to condition Marth to approach only at certain times/spacings though.....

lol.. A swift kick to the face is all I need.

what

 

[Dr Peepee]

Another thing I figure I'd note here:

I am not good enough yet to start learning to have my secondaries become other tournament "viable" characters. I say this because I went to a fest last weekend and played against a Peach main, Dop with my Marth a ton in order to try to bring Marth back(I think too many people think Marth sucks when I think he ***** so I was working on improving him). Dop is good at the Marth matchup and is ranked 3rd in NC(he's no scrub) so I figured he'd be a good way to gauge how I was at the moment with Marth(I play Marth a good amount already). Dop was working me for a bit, and I didn't win much initially. At the end of the night, after some bouts with my confidence, I was able to usually win(majority anyway) vs Dop with some 3 stocks here and there. Still, I wasn't satisfied with my play and realized by the end of the fest that I could have put more time into working on new Falco ideas I had instead of trying to bring a whole character back. I felt like I cheated myself and Dop too(he wanted to play my Falco but wasn't pushy about it). From now until I feel even more confident in my own abilities(where I can take a loss with secondaries better <.<) I'm going to stick to improving my Falco because he is the character that will take me the farthest overall.

Disclaimer: I still plan on playing my other characters vs Twitch at least/in random friendlies as well since those other characters are fun and knowing how to play them helps me remember how to beat them/what a matchup is like from the other side. I just plan on focusing on myself and my own goals before working on things like Marth to help others/my side projects out.


Thoughts?

 

[PK Webb]

i only read this thread when i see a new title up lol.

 

[Fernandez]

PeePee do you ever play for fun? you seem so serious about this game.
I know thats the best way to improve but you could also just play some other char and not think about how you could've played as falco all the time.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

pp, u and mango should do a marth ditto at genesis. i'd pay to see it haha

 

[Dr Peepee]

i only read this thread when i see a new title up lol.

This is why I try to keep new topics coming as often as possible for the lazy people. =p

PeePee do you ever play for fun? you seem so serious about this game.
I know thats the best way to improve but you could also just play some other char and not think about how you could've played as falco all the time.

At the same fest I played tons of special Melee and NC is notorious for goofing off at tournaments half the time(once they're knocked out but sometimes even in tournament) so I get plenty of goof-off matches as well haha. I laugh a ton when I play with these guys here, but I just don't write about it since that isn't what threads in character boards should be about in my opinion. I'm motivated to improve and this board should be more serious so I figure I should keep the mood appropriate if possible.

pp, u and mango should do a marth ditto at genesis. i'd pay to see it haha

I've beaten Mango in the only Marth ditto we've played. =D Same for M2K. I would love to do more of them though because Marth dittos **** and it's definitely one of my better Marth matchups I feel haha. <3 Marth

 

[DJRome]

lol ur marth is a bad

 

[Divinokage]

Learning styles... I have to play you again PP, because apparently your style completely counters my style for some reason and I want to know why.

 

[Dark Hart]

yea Kevin

your Marth is trash

 

[PK Webb]

in my defense i dont play falco so i only come here for the good reads

 

[Dr Peepee]

Learning styles... I have to play you again PP, because apparently your style completely counters my style for some reason and I want to know why.

My safer style is really good against Ganon, but the newer way I'm playing is more aggressive. Playing Linguini at Pound reminded me of how I needed to fight Ganon so hopefully I'll still be playing the matchup/Kage matchup correctly when we meet again. =)

 

[Divinokage]

My safer style is really good against Ganon, but the newer way I'm playing is more aggressive. Playing Linguini at Pound reminded me of how I needed to fight Ganon so hopefully I'll still be playing the matchup/Kage matchup correctly when we meet again. =)

Well I didn't understand because no matter which character you took, you still 3 stocked me like 12 times in a row. So I want to find out if I can use a style which could counter you instead if that's possible. =P

 

[Brookman]

Thoughts?

more fox. Your matches vs. hbox from a while back were very good and I'd really like to see more of it.


I love your dash dance.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh, yeah I see haha. Well, I'm down to play next tourney we're at.

I think it'll be easier to find you if you just warrior yell across the room so we'll shoot for that when you're ready to play me lol.

Edit: I hope my Fox doesn't suck now lol. Sorry I haven't recorded more of it Brookman I meant to. G6(hyped nc monthly with m2k and maybe hbox coming), if nothing else, should have my fox recorded vs good players if I'm lucky. =)

 

[Divinokage]

Haha alright, we shall see then. =)

 

[Deleted member]

put up some marth matches so we can help you go over them?

 

[Druggedfox]

Hbox is thinking about going to G6?

 

[Dr Peepee]

put up some marth matches so we can help you go over them?

Didn't bring anything to record with, but I'll see if I can get something within the next 2 weeks(not playing anyone besides Twitch until Mango comes....I'll try to get him to record Marth dittos with me though. =p)

Hbox is thinking about going to G6?

Yeah he posted in the thread saying he was thinking about going lol.

 

[W.A.S.T.E.]

Another thing I figure I'd note here:

I am not good enough yet to start learning to have my secondaries become other tournament "viable" characters. I say this because I went to a fest last weekend and played against a Peach main, Dop with my Marth a ton in order to try to bring Marth back(I think too many people think Marth sucks when I think he ***** so I was working on improving him). Dop is good at the Marth matchup and is ranked 3rd in NC(he's no scrub) so I figured he'd be a good way to gauge how I was at the moment with Marth(I play Marth a good amount already). Dop was working me for a bit, and I didn't win much initially. At the end of the night, after some bouts with my confidence, I was able to usually win(majority anyway) vs Dop with some 3 stocks here and there. Still, I wasn't satisfied with my play and realized by the end of the fest that I could have put more time into working on new Falco ideas I had instead of trying to bring a whole character back. I felt like I cheated myself and Dop too(he wanted to play my Falco but wasn't pushy about it). From now until I feel even more confident in my own abilities(where I can take a loss with secondaries better <.<) I'm going to stick to improving my Falco because he is the character that will take me the farthest overall.

Disclaimer: I still plan on playing my other characters vs Twitch at least/in random friendlies as well since those other characters are fun and knowing how to play them helps me remember how to beat them/what a matchup is like from the other side. I just plan on focusing on myself and my own goals before working on things like Marth to help others/my side projects out.


Thoughts?

Definitely continue experimenting with Falco. You are probably the most exciting Falco player right now considering your recent major wins. If anyone is going to introduce something new into Falco's gameplay, it is probably going to be you. You have already done some interesting things so it would be great to see where else you take the character.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

hello, thread.


goodbye, thread.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Definitely continue experimenting with Falco. You are probably the most exciting Falco player right now considering your recent major wins. If anyone is going to introduce something new into Falco's gameplay, it is probably going to be you. You have already done some interesting things so it would be great to see where else you take the character.

I wasn't really going to quit working on Falco haha, just put a lot of extra time into a secondary or two for now. I decided against that until later(though I may upload some stuff of them just to see what people think eventually). I definitely want to see what else I can do with Falco because he will take me the farthest obviously haha.

Thanks for the input. =)

hello, thread.


goodbye, thread.

<33333333

 

[LumpyCPU...]

3< ...

 

[strawhats]

I wasn't really going to quit working on Falco haha, just put a lot of extra time into a secondary or two for now. I decided against that until later(though I may upload some stuff of them just to see what people think eventually). I definitely want to see what else I can do with Falco because he will take me the farthest obviously haha.

Thanks for the input. =)



<33333333

heard you beat m2k in marth dittos at WGF.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, just one, but it was a 2 stock and yeah I did. Maybe he wasn't warmed up though?

I'd like to play a lot with him for sure either way. =)

 

[strawhats]

Well, just one, but it was a 2 stock and yeah I did. Maybe he wasn't warmed up though?

I'd like to play a lot with him for sure either way. =)

You sir are amazing.

 

[JPOBS]

my non fox/falco characters are garbage.

Sometimes i just wanna relax and play characters that aren't so techskill based like sheik/marth but then i get wrecked and go back to my mains.

im wierd tho, i play like 70% fox in friendlies cuz he's more fun than falco to me but in singles i play like 85% falco only lol

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

pp beating m2k in 1 friendly doesnt prove anything except that pp's marth is amazing, but i doubt he's better at the marth matchup than mew2king is, or better at any matchup than mew2kings marth is =P


mew2king is sexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx at marth dittos, even though i heard he claims he hasnt practiced them since forever lol

PP's beasthood carries his marth pretty far

 

[Mahone]

Another thing I figure I'd note here:

I am not good enough yet to start learning to have my secondaries become other tournament "viable" characters. I say this because I went to a fest last weekend and played against a Peach main, Dop with my Marth a ton in order to try to bring Marth back(I think too many people think Marth sucks when I think he ***** so I was working on improving him). Dop is good at the Marth matchup and is ranked 3rd in NC(he's no scrub) so I figured he'd be a good way to gauge how I was at the moment with Marth(I play Marth a good amount already). Dop was working me for a bit, and I didn't win much initially. At the end of the night, after some bouts with my confidence, I was able to usually win(majority anyway) vs Dop with some 3 stocks here and there. Still, I wasn't satisfied with my play and realized by the end of the fest that I could have put more time into working on new Falco ideas I had instead of trying to bring a whole character back. I felt like I cheated myself and Dop too(he wanted to play my Falco but wasn't pushy about it). From now until I feel even more confident in my own abilities(where I can take a loss with secondaries better <.<) I'm going to stick to improving my Falco because he is the character that will take me the farthest overall.

Disclaimer: I still plan on playing my other characters vs Twitch at least/in random friendlies as well since those other characters are fun and knowing how to play them helps me remember how to beat them/what a matchup is like from the other side. I just plan on focusing on myself and my own goals before working on things like Marth to help others/my side projects out.


Thoughts?

I feel like no one really directly responded to you so i figured i might as well...

I actually have the same problem when i play in friendlies. I will play my falco a lot, partially because I'm just trying to play a different character (and like you said it helps me understand the puff vs. falco matchup more), but I mainly do it because everyone hates fighting puff so much. Even when i play my friends that don't mind playing my puff, i feel guilty because their best matchup becomes puff and they never get to play one in tournament because there are so few puff mains, so i feel like they don't get good tourney practice.

Anyway, every time after i play i go home thinking that i should have just played puff, because I had some new stuff to work out. I feel especially bad when i go to tournaments and my puff isn't warmed up, because ive been playing falco for 80% of my friendlies for the past week before the tournament.

Thats kinda my own situation, so back to what you said, I can understand why you want to show why marth is good. I think too many people see you destroy M2k's marth, and think it is the character. You play the matchup so well that it looks like marth has no options, but he obviously does, however, instead of realizing this and giving you all the credit, they tend to think its the character and claim that falco is the best character in game (of course acknowledge that you are good, they don't give enough credit imo).

But don't worry about them, if you beat M2k in marth dittos, they would have plenty of johns lined up anyway so its not worth it. I think you should continue to push falco and not worry what other people think about the other characters. I was actually arguing with someone yesterday about how Hbox is so underrated because people think its just puff. He was telling me that he beat all of Hbox's secondaries and they are bad and i told him that is because he focused all his time on puff to become better faster. The guy said that its because that was the only character he could do well with....

He said that like it was a bad thing, but i feel like that is what you are supposed to do. Pick a character that suits your style and try to push them to their limit. I feel like thats what you are doing and i don't think you should stop.

tl;dr: I approve of your decision.

 

[Wenbobular]

i feel guilty because their best matchup becomes puff and they never get to play one in tournament because there are so few puff mains

My roommate of 2 years is a Luigi main haha
I just get to beast on soooo many Luigis in tournament now

It actually helped me make it into round 2 pools of ROM3 because I had Vudujin in my pool and had to 2-0 him to advance me and Copycat instead of having it be a 3 way tie xD

 

[Mahone]

My roommate of 2 years is a Luigi main haha
I just get to beast on soooo many Luigis in tournament now

It actually helped me make it into round 2 pools of ROM3 because I had Vudujin in my pool and had to 2-0 him to advance me and Copycat instead of having it be a 3 way tie xD

lol... thats true i guess, I wish i got to play luigi's more... then mabye i could beat Vist... one day.... one day....

 

[JPOBS]

yea people who main unpopular characters are both a gift and a curse to their friends.

on one hand, you learn a matchup that is largely useless to know because its so rare. on the other, it can save you because losing to jank matchups in tourny really sucks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like no one really directly responded to you so i figured i might as well...

I actually have the same problem when i play in friendlies. I will play my falco a lot, partially because I'm just trying to play a different character (and like you said it helps me understand the puff vs. falco matchup more), but I mainly do it because everyone hates fighting puff so much. Even when i play my friends that don't mind playing my puff, i feel guilty because their best matchup becomes puff and they never get to play one in tournament because there are so few puff mains, so i feel like they don't get good tourney practice.

Anyway, every time after i play i go home thinking that i should have just played puff, because I had some new stuff to work out. I feel especially bad when i go to tournaments and my puff isn't warmed up, because ive been playing falco for 80% of my friendlies for the past week before the tournament.

Thats kinda my own situation, so back to what you said, I can understand why you want to show why marth is good. I think too many people see you destroy M2k's marth, and think it is the character. You play the matchup so well that it looks like marth has no options, but he obviously does, however, instead of realizing this and giving you all the credit, they tend to think its the character and claim that falco is the best character in game (of course acknowledge that you are good, they don't give enough credit imo).

But don't worry about them, if you beat M2k in marth dittos, they would have plenty of johns lined up anyway so its not worth it. I think you should continue to push falco and not worry what other people think about the other characters. I was actually arguing with someone yesterday about how Hbox is so underrated because people think its just puff. He was telling me that he beat all of Hbox's secondaries and they are bad and i told him that is because he focused all his time on puff to become better faster. The guy said that its because that was the only character he could do well with....

He said that like it was a bad thing, but i feel like that is what you are supposed to do. Pick a character that suits your style and try to push them to their limit. I feel like thats what you are doing and i don't think you should stop.

tl;dr: I approve of your decision.

Yay a wall! <3

Yeah sometimes I won't play Falco on NC because they get super discouraged and some of them talk about quitting after I tryhard on them. I've learned to just gravitate towards serious players at fests when I want to be serious and the people who want to goof off usually keep it that way for themselves too haha. Point I'm trying to make here is if there are circumstances that can make things work out for you personally and give you a competitive edge, then you owe it to yourself to take those chances to see how far you can push yourself. If people get mad or can't handle it then find a way to make them handle it or play someone else(unless that person that gets mad is someone good and then it's like wtf you should know how to fight puff sorta).

M2K sucking against Falco probably doesn't help LOL. But yeah my end goal was to beat the "Falco is broken" train to the punch by proving I could be successful with other characters(ones that I already enjoyed ideally). I think me being like the 2011 M2K probably doesn't help with whatever year m2k we have now(when we play each other) lol.

Hbox is pretty bad with other characters, but yeah like you said it makes absolutely no difference because that's all the dude needs to win. Puff is far from broken and not just because she doesn't win anymore/Hbox lost to a Young Link. The character is a floating balloon that dies early(except on Dreamland lolol) and is slow. It can't be broken.

tl dr : word



@random characters thing: Twitch has played pretty much every character(especially Luigi who I hated forever and Yoshi lately) on me a lot so I almost never get janked out haha. Getting your training partners to like weird characters could be useful.