PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[X1-12]

PP: What do you think about retreating Nair OoS when you are expecting a grab but unsure? Obviously Spotdoge -> Shine is nearly always a better combo but I feel I cover more options with the retreating Nair. I wouldn't try it out of shield pressure but after I've escaped a combo into shield or got up after I missed tech I'd use it, mainly against Foxes really.

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ Pretty sure PP's been advocating retreating dair out of shield to dispatch scenarios like those for some time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Peepee: Could you make a post about Falco's Fair? I see you use it often and I never really realized how good it was until I saw you use it and then tried it out myself. First hit does 9 damage. Nine damage!
Care to explain how you first started implementing it into your Falco and your thoughts on the move in general?

Not to discredit PP, but I think we mostly have Zhu to thank for the revival of Fair. He's the first one I saw making a conscious effort to replace SHFFL nair with SHFFL fair in combo extensions, most notably on Falcon.

I also maintain that full hop fairing onto platforms has some untapped combo potential, but ultimately it's probably situational enough to qualify as needlessly flashy.

OMG I LOVE YOU CACTUS



^this

zhu's been doing that to me for ages now, with fox and falco, zhu started doing it cause he was like "i can continue combos with it, it's soooo good" and "i can't hit you with anything else, might as well fair" depending on the situation

whether or not pp got that from zhu (very possible cause he's been a match w**** for a while now) it's not odd for really good players to try out every possibility after a while, especially when they are playing people who aren't that challenging to them

like i've figured out a few instances when ftilt is the best option with peach (one of which is actually against falco ) and i've decided utilt still sucks lol

I....don't think I saw Zhu do it first lol. I think the VERY first time I saw Fair used, it was by Shiz on some Fox on FD. I was instantly hooked on that particular combo, and I just took it from there on my own. Maybe I did see Zhu use it and just forgot though? I know some of my innovations have been my own though. I really like upthrow fair and if I didn't come up with it then I'll become known for it because that combo's raaaaaaape lol. XD

Fair, overall, can be used to replace Nairs/Dairs in combos. Should you use the move enough, you can get people to start DI'ing away from you when you approach them, so then you can start Dair'ing and watch people die at stupid times lol. Basically Fair allows comboing to become a little DI mixup game too. Good news though, everyone has the habit of DI'ing in by instinct so you can get away with a lot of Fair usually. Sometimes it doesn't matter though since Fair doesn't send people far. Obviously hitting with multiple hits in the air ***** because it can take characters like PUFF or PEACH past that stupid CC /non-combo range and you can start Dair Dair/whatever'ing them lol. That move does a lot of silly things though. I've seen people like Mango/Blunted Object use it to recover, and I've tried it and seen it work myself. Heck I mean, I fall with the move out sometimes just because I want a hitbox out the whole way down so I don't get grabbed on lading/screw with people's spacing.

I dunno there's probly more but Fair ***** lol <3 fair.

From what I've seen, fair is a very good move when comboing Ganon.

amirite?

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

PP: What do you think about retreating Nair OoS when you are expecting a grab but unsure? Obviously Spotdoge -> Shine is nearly always a better combo but I feel I cover more options with the retreating Nair. I wouldn't try it out of shield pressure but after I've escaped a combo into shield or got up after I missed tech I'd use it, mainly against Foxes really.

Ehhh, it's okay, and I see European players do this mostly for some reason, but I don't really like it. You would think Nair makes "more sense" to do because it sticks out horizontally but Dair just beats everything and has a scarier hitbox for longer lol so I advocate using that honestly.

Laser/WD OOS or FH out are all good ways to avoid the grab as well. You can do more but it depends on how much time you have/the way the opponent is playing/conditioning you.

^ Pretty sure PP's been advocating retreating dair out of shield to dispatch scenarios like those for some time.

Serious question: If you know a lot of what I'm going to say and a lot of stuff about every character via lurking, then why aren't you able to put it to practice more effectively? I'm really not trying to insult you but I just want to understand why this phenomenon happens. If you don't want to answer you don't have to.

 

[Deleted member]

Serious question: If you know a lot of what I'm going to say and a lot of stuff about every character via lurking, then why aren't you able to put it to practice more effectively? I'm really not trying to insult you but I just want to understand why this phenomenon happens. If you don't want to answer you don't have to.

because knowledge =/= talent or you and I would be playing a lot more often.

 

[Wenbobular]

ChivalJoe plays silly
I make fun of him for it all the time
Kinda knowing the theory is way easier than applying it in games when you suck >.<
L> more players at UMD

 

[Rubyiris]

because knowledge =/= talent or you and I would be playing a lot more often.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands this.

It's one thing to know a lot about the game, and another thing to be able to actively incorporate that knowledge into real game play.

I really don't buy s2j and lovage's "you know nothing" argument, when I do have a very high level of understanding regarding smash and competitive play.

 

[Dr Peepee]

because knowledge =/= talent or you and I would be playing a lot more often.

Interesting. I never felt particularly talented at smash, just good at observing and thinking and wanting to push button fasts LOL. I guess you could argue that it's a hidden talent then? Eh, I dunno. I'm just trying to get more information on specific people to see if I can understand such things better.

 

[Rubyiris]

what if you're "talented" at observation?

 

[MacD]

Interesting. I never felt particularly talented at smash, just good at observing and thinking and wanting to push button fasts LOL. I guess you could argue that it's a hidden talent then? Eh, I dunno. I'm just trying to get more information on specific people to see if I can understand such things better.

it's funny, cause i'm like the exact opposite, i didn't/don't know jack about smash (comparative to how good i am at least)

i was playing with zhu last week and he was like "what do you think i'm doing that is making it hard for you" or something like that. my response was "idk" cause i really had no good answer to his specific question. Then he yelled at me being bad and i yelled back that i know i suck and don't know how to explain this game. i'm just wondering what'll happen to me once i get the mental aspect down and can actually explain things and see patterns and stuff.

also, nieghborhood P knows a looooooooot about this game (whether people realize it or not). he was really good at training people (fly for a while) and pointing out lots of habits, but he just never was able to get past some block he had to make him better (partly his ego i'm sure). but knowledge def doesn't not equal skill. it's funny how that translates.

gotta love smash

 

[~Twitch~]

i was playing with zhu last week and he was like "what do you think i'm doing that is making it hard for you" or something like that. my response was "idk" cause i really had no good answer to his specific question. Then he yelled at me being bad and i yelled back that i know i suck and don't know how to explain this game. i'm just wondering what'll happen to me once i get the mental aspect down and can actually explain things and see patterns and stuff.

long lost brother!!! <33333

 

[Druggedfox]

LOOOL is that the PP vs twitch dynamic?

 

[Rubyiris]

@MacD: Axe is exactly like that. For as good as he is, I find it almost insulting that he can't put why what he does is good into words.

I'm pretty comparable to P. I'm very good at explaining aspects of the game, but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm as good as my level of knowledge would allow.

 

[Dr Peepee]

it's funny, cause i'm like the exact opposite, i didn't/don't know jack about smash (comparative to how good i am at least)

i was playing with zhu last week and he was like "what do you think i'm doing that is making it hard for you" or something like that. my response was "idk" cause i really had no good answer to his specific question. Then he yelled at me being bad and i yelled back that i know i suck and don't know how to explain this game. i'm just wondering what'll happen to me once i get the mental aspect down and can actually explain things and see patterns and stuff.

also, nieghborhood P knows a looooooooot about this game (whether people realize it or not). he was really good at training people (fly for a while) and pointing out lots of habits, but he just never was able to get past some block he had to make him better (partly his ego i'm sure). but knowledge def doesn't not equal skill. it's funny how that translates.

gotta love smash

Well, I also have been able to work on understanding this side of things better as well. I was talking to Mango on aim the other day and trying to pick his brain a little, and we didn't get too far before I realized I understood Mango's style better than he did. He just sort of adjusts and plays on his own, and spends the whole match reading his opponent and whatever his own character does just comes naturally for him. This is unreal to me and improvement is so hard for me to understand this way, but maybe it's all about reinforcement still. He can learn what he's doing right or wrong and continue/correct much faster since he's focusing more on his opponent and will understand the match better maybe? This style of learning and playing seems more prevalent on WC though, that much I think I can safely say.

The other group of people just improve with their knowledge in a more linear way I feel(people like me and m2k and probly zhu for example). The more about an opponent or the game or them they figure out, the better they will get. Sometimes it's complicated stuff that has to be broken down into simple concepts for it to work for this analytical camp, whereas people in the instinct camp tend to just break it down and see the game in simple terms as it is. I feel like the instinctive way of playing was much more common back in the day, and now everyone wants to play based on certain knowledge everyone seems to possess instead.


I'm probably just rambling too far off topic now and umbreon will simplify all of this in one line in a sec anyway. <3



@DF: I doubt it. Twitch either is too young to make it that way or doesn't understand enough yet.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL I skipped the entire wall of text until I saw my name.

anyway here's your summarized answer:

I was talking to Mango on aim the other day and trying to pick his brain a little, and we didn't get too far before I realized I understood Mango's style better than he did. He just sort of adjusts and plays on his own, and spends the whole match reading his opponent and whatever his own character does just comes naturally for him. This style of learning and playing seems more prevalent on WC though, that much I think I can safely say.

I do believe at this point we are metagaming basic forum discussions.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I like complicated answers with all my thoughts screw you! XD

 

[Rubyiris]

the direct approach is always the best.

 

[Druggedfox]

PP, do you necessarily think one style of learning is better than the other... or even, would you prefer one to the other? Throughout my course of smash, I've found myself striving to be able to consciously think/analyze ANYTHING while I'm playing. I never could describe how I do things, adapt, think, or anything. I just did stuff and it worked, not knowing why. Over time, I've tried to understand as much as I can, consciously, because I figure it can't hurt, but I always wonder if one way is necessarily more effective than the other. Opinions?

 

[choknater]

IMO balance is the best way

but we all have our personal strengths. its almost like a left/right brain thing

 

[Druggedfox]

Hmm, mkay thanks =] Still looking for other opinions. Its definitely a question I've been thinking about for years, and my answer always varies between the 3 options

 

[Rubyiris]

whats a learn? I just read the match up chart and execute it as faithfully as possible.

If I lose it's because I wasn't following the clearly laid-out guidelines on how to win every match up forever well enough.

 

[S l o X]

when are you coming by next?

not this week but potentially the next one that goes down.

 

[choknater]

something i have yet to apply is that actually practicing is sometimes better than posting on the boards

but posting *****

 

[MacD]

PP, do you necessarily think one style of learning is better than the other... or even, would you prefer one to the other? Throughout my course of smash, I've found myself striving to be able to consciously think/analyze ANYTHING while I'm playing. I never could describe how I do things, adapt, think, or anything. I just did stuff and it worked, not knowing why. Over time, I've tried to understand as much as I can, consciously, because I figure it can't hurt, but I always wonder if one way is necessarily more effective than the other. Opinions?

i don't think either one is better than the other. it's kinda like some people are visual learners, some people have to do things to learn, etc when it comes to school, so why can't it be the same for smash?

obviously i read people and am good at this game, but i for the life of me can not help someone get better when they ask for my help on vids (same probably goes for axe to some extent from what rubyiris said). i doubt any of you care, but vanz just wrote up a super detailed critique of a vid, but when i tried helping the guy, all i could really say was something like "you were slow, put yourself in bad positions, and messed up edgeguarding." after reading his post i agreed with everything he said and could sorta point it out, but i could never have ever picked up on those points myself.

... so i got distracted and i've kinda lost my train of thought... but basically, there are 2 obviously different styles that seem to be how most people learn/see the game. i'd say it's wrong to say one is better than the other and that people should go learn the other styles.

granted you do need to read people and pick up on habits eventually to get really good, but if someone like me learned that, i still doubt that i'd be able to analyze the game like pp does

 

[JPOBS]

i think people who learn and play instinctively have a easier time improving and greater chances for success at the game than those who learn linearly by possessing knowledge. Although PP and M2k are admittedly obvious exceptions.

 

[Dr Peepee]

the direct approach is always the best.

Seeing a thought process unfold can also be helpful.

PP, do you necessarily think one style of learning is better than the other... or even, would you prefer one to the other? Throughout my course of smash, I've found myself striving to be able to consciously think/analyze ANYTHING while I'm playing. I never could describe how I do things, adapt, think, or anything. I just did stuff and it worked, not knowing why. Over time, I've tried to understand as much as I can, consciously, because I figure it can't hurt, but I always wonder if one way is necessarily more effective than the other. Opinions?

Each style of play comes with its own pros and cons, but I feel like BEST players are almost always ones who just instinctively "get" smash. They learn enough tricks and data in their free time to make themselves better, but these are the people that just apply their own skills and understanding of the game immediately, and that sort of adaptation and capacity for growth are just going to be more effective than having lots of knowledge beforehand. Knowing the game isn't as good as being talented at the game.

I have no idea how to explain M2K and I except for drive. Hard work vs natural talent.

i don't think either one is better than the other. it's kinda like some people are visual learners, some people have to do things to learn, etc when it comes to school, so why can't it be the same for smash?

obviously i read people and am good at this game, but i for the life of me can not help someone get better when they ask for my help on vids (same probably goes for axe to some extent from what rubyiris said). i doubt any of you care, but vanz just wrote up a super detailed critique of a vid, but when i tried helping the guy, all i could really say was something like "you were slow, put yourself in bad positions, and messed up edgeguarding." after reading his post i agreed with everything he said and could sorta point it out, but i could never have ever picked up on those points myself.

... so i got distracted and i've kinda lost my train of thought... but basically, there are 2 obviously different styles that seem to be how most people learn/see the game. i'd say it's wrong to say one is better than the other and that people should go learn the other styles.

granted you do need to read people and pick up on habits eventually to get really good, but if someone like me learned that, i still doubt that i'd be able to analyze the game like pp does

You probably learn habits and all of that subconsciously. When you're able to clearly think them through, you'll be improving a lot then. Both styles of play have to understand what they're looking for, but it's all about the adaptation and improvement during down time that sets instinctive players apart.

i think people who learn and play instinctively have a easier time improving and greater chances for success at the game than those who learn linearly by possessing knowledge. Although PP and M2k are admittedly obvious exceptions.

agreed

 

[stingers]

were you implying m2k didnt work hard? cuz that *** wais like...on top of everything back in the day

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm implying that the dude ran on work.

 

[stingers]

oh alright lol. sry

 

[Divinokage]

I think I'm more of the instinct type of smasher. I mean once I knew every tool I had, it was basically a matter of how to use these tools effectively to shut down the opponent. And obviously this had been acquired through experience and a ton of hardwork, I did very little research through out my career because for me I work a lot better by simply playing matches and seeing for myself what I can do, I need to experience it. I guess I'm also very reactive because once I see something happen there's an immediate reaction which tells me that I should do this. If it happens that I can do something better then it's usually revealed to me if I try to remember what I did wrong there. Trial and error for me in general. =)

Just last week I played 6 days in a row, and then 1 day break and now i'm on my 3rd day once more in a row of playing smash. Thanks PP for the fire at Pound 5. =P (After seeing such an aggravating finals, I can't sit still any longer. =P)

Edit: Also PP, when you really want something, you'll do everything to get it, yes? You def need everything as a whole to surpass everybody. Just how much do you want it? =P (I want it, lol)

 

[Synergy Cell]

I wish i had the drive half of you guys had. I think it's mainly because of my job and location (that being there aren't that many smash tourney's where i'm at). I do want to play more good people in tourneys.

 

[Divinokage]

I wish i had the drive half of you guys had. I think it's mainly because of my job and location (that being there aren't that many smash tourney's where i'm at). I do want to play more good people in tourneys.

Finding goals you can realistically achieve helps a lot in motivation. Just little by little you can get stronger that way. =P

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

In martial arts thinking is not supposed to happen because a person who thinks is not fast enough in a fight. As a result (at least in Chinese martial arts) the training consists in conditioning the body so that it will automatically react in a certain way when the fight occurs.

In a similar way, I think people who play instinctively have an easier time dealing with Melee's hardcore speed and the extremely high amount of information they have to process. At least as far as the "technical" aspects of the game are concerned (knowing timings, spacing, priority, etc.).

I've always thought knowledge of the game data is somewhat trivial, and I've been surprised lately by the amount of information the other Italians are, unlike me, aware of. There's no need to know the frames in which Falco can be shield grabbed during pillaring, as long as you know that pillaring is not invincible. And there is no need to know at which % certain comboes can be landed as long as you have the natural skill to follow up an enemy and keep a combo going.

Lately, however, I've started to think that active thinking can be very helpful while playing. If on the other hand it means drawing some of your attention from the "instinctive" side of the game, on the other one I think it might be more effective in preventing stupid behaviour on your part as well as in finding out and exploiting your opponent's habits.

In a nutshell, the way I see it is: Instinct helps you understanding the game (spacing, timings, priorities, etc.), Logic helps you understand your opponent (habits, good/bad decisions, etc.).

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm only able to apply instinctive knowledge to the game, but I have a reservoir of technical information memorized, just as a testament for how long I've played the game, and how long I've been a member of the boards (lurked in 05, joined in 06, forgot my original password, made this account.)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think both instinctual and knowledge based approaches are good. Knowledge based has a better rate of improvement, simply because its easier to analyse what went wrong and find a solution. Instinctual is better in the short term and generally gives you an advantage against someone of the same amount of skill.


As for not having time to think and play at the same time, I somewhat disagree. I have found myself a sort of short hand for playing and thinking at the same time. During downtime of mutual dash dancing and non-active movement I can organize my thoughts of previous conflicts and determine patterns to exploit later.

 

[choknater]

because of the nature of ic's, the amount of tactics they can use is constantly expanding. so using them effectively is a matter of dedicated experimentation and application, which really does require just straight up knowledge and having to think a lot. i was always an instinctive player and based myself off chudat vids, and that's great for any starting ic's

but thinking about all their options and just doing things like... inventing new walls/mixups really helps. for ic's it really does require a bit of a balance.

knowing when to wd in = instinct all the way. no one sees that **** coming (unless they do.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think I'm more of the instinct type of smasher. I mean once I knew every tool I had, it was basically a matter of how to use these tools effectively to shut down the opponent. And obviously this had been acquired through experience and a ton of hardwork, I did very little research through out my career because for me I work a lot better by simply playing matches and seeing for myself what I can do, I need to experience it. I guess I'm also very reactive because once I see something happen there's an immediate reaction which tells me that I should do this. If it happens that I can do something better then it's usually revealed to me if I try to remember what I did wrong there. Trial and error for me in general. =)

Just last week I played 6 days in a row, and then 1 day break and now i'm on my 3rd day once more in a row of playing smash. Thanks PP for the fire at Pound 5. =P (After seeing such an aggravating finals, I can't sit still any longer. =P)

Edit: Also PP, when you really want something, you'll do everything to get it, yes? You def need everything as a whole to surpass everybody. Just how much do you want it? =P (I want it, lol)

I am a one-track minded person. When I really care about something, it's almost literally all I can think about. The same has been true for me with smash. Especially with very few people to train against, it was easy for me to devote my time to conscious thought about Melee. Since I have new ideas for my playstyle now, I have more food for thought than ever.

Warrior spirit too good.




I'll respond to more in a couple days.

 

[Druggedfox]

Thanks everybody for the replies, its been good food for thought ^_^

PP, you'll also be glad to know that right now I hate falco vs marth (as falco), so you can laugh >___>

All my approaches constantly got shut down, it was obnoxious as hell. Then I was like "What would PP do?" and ended up just wavedashing really fast back and forth until marth did something silly =P

 

[Synergy Cell]

Finding goals you can realistically achieve helps a lot in motivation. Just little by little you can get stronger that way. =P

Yea i used to go to tourney's all the time before i joined the military. Just since then i have had a drastic decline in the amount that i attend. I miss the MD/VA community of smash and have been hoping to get into the florida one (west florida) but to no avail.

 

[Divinokage]

I am a one-track minded person. When I really care about something, it's almost literally all I can think about. The same has been true for me with smash. Especially with very few people to train against, it was easy for me to devote my time to conscious thought about Melee. Since I have new ideas for my playstyle now, I have more food for thought than ever.

Warrior spirit too good.




I'll respond to more in a couple days.

Ya the more you play, the more you get consistent in the warrior spirit's case. It helped me Jv 5 someone today in Ganon/Falcon, I so wish it was recorded omg.. lol.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

All my approaches constantly got shut down

That's a problem I constantly have too, in fact in this period I tend to play the match up in a "the more you run, the more you win" way. However I don't feel it to be the best approach to the problem as running away means constantly leaving room to Marth while Falco's strenght is supposed to be in pressure/stage control.