Pokemon Stadium 2: Full Analysis, Gameplay Implications, and a really fair stage

[Gea]

Correct. It will also be legal at WHOBO. I'd love to see the stat of how many times it is played on.

 

[ryuu seika]

Do you know what I consider wrong with this stage? I'll tell you:

I see nothing wrong with the Normal version. I actively like the ability to push back blockers granted by the Ice version. I don't really mind the Ground version as it's no worse than any of the PS1 transformations. And I'm not bothered by the Electricity version when my style involves plenty of jumping anyway.

What I dislike about this stage is that the different versions are rather more different than those of PS1 and totally screw me over if I'm caught off guard by the transformation (which is mostly random and thus rather unpredictable). That and the Air version. I play a Kirby that relies on my ability to short hop quickly into Dair and jump across the stage to chase my opponents. On this version of the stage, Kirby has almost no gravity at all. Even fast falling does almost nothing. I get stuck in the air for ages while my opponent is free to do whatever they like to me. Air kills Kirby.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you're being caught off guard after 7 seconds of warning I don't know what to say

 

[ryuu seika]

Yeah, the randomness issue is probably my fault for not knowing the stage well enough but the Air version killing my character is not something I can deal with.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

You have air mobility on that transformation you do realize that right? And you can simply stay grounded on the air transformation did anyone think of that? Remember that nothing besides your opponent's attacks are forcing you into the air, so if being in the air is bad for you, then just play the ground game. Isn't that where kirby's generally strongest against his opponents? Just get a grab and Dthrow>Utilt them into the sky and congrats you just stalled the match for 15 seconds without much risk.

 

[ryuu seika]

Throws? Staying grounded? Air Mobility?
You don't understand my style in the slightest! I play a ground based game with most of my motion done through jumps and a fair number of aerial attacks involved when landing. I cannot play a solely ground based game, no more than I can manage a solely aerial one. Nor can I consistently pull off throws.

From what I can tell, my best bet here would be to ledge hog. Which is a ridiculous idea. Such a thing should never be ones only viable option.

 

[Gea]

Alternatively, you can run for as long as you can then get as high as possible and use the stalling to wait it out. If they active come for you and have no quick way down, use stone. I'm not fond of the air portion either, but Kirby does have some options to wait it out. Diddy is the silliest. He can jump and charge rocketbarrel and it shoots him into the air before the barrels ever even go off. He can stay airborne for a LONG time.

 

[Tesh]

Kirby has 2 dive attacks and multiple jumps. As I said its kinda like RC imo. Its not about how this phase is good for anyone, it just sucks really hard for alot of people. Kirby would do fine avoiding any character on this phase though.

 

[infiniteV115]

Throws? Staying grounded? Air Mobility?
You don't understand my style in the slightest! I play a ground based game with most of my motion done through jumps and a fair number of aerial attacks involved when landing. I cannot play a solely ground based game, no more than I can manage a solely aerial one. Nor can I consistently pull off throws.

From what I can tell, my best bet here would be to ledge hog. Which is a ridiculous idea. Such a thing should never be ones only viable option.

Ever heard of adapting? It's kinda useful. You know, that thing that helps you get better at stuff, one of the fundamental reasons evolution has taken place for literally millions of years. We're kinda the most evolved and intelligent species on the planet, I'd say we're kinda good at adapting. You might want to give it a shot, I think it'd help. Just a suggestion.

 

[Tesh]

Ever heard of adapting? It's kinda useful. You know, that thing that helps you get better at stuff, one of the fundamental reasons evolution has taken place for literally millions of years. We're kinda the most evolved and intelligent species on the planet, I'd say we're kinda good at adapting. You might want to give it a shot, I think it'd help. Just a suggestion.

Are you BPC?

 

[!!!RM!!!]

Just because the stage gays your options for what, 60 seconds, and forces you to camp instead of approach doesn't make it any less balanced. Look at PS1, RC, some hazards on Picto, Norfair, Japes, the list goes on.

I think its a fine stage that isn't any more unbalanced than any other stage we already have.

 

[infiniteV115]

Are you BPC?

I really doubt that this is a serious question, but just in case...
No. I am not BPC.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The sad part is that using one of the most sane lines of argument against one of the most inane arguments here makes you deplorable. ****ing great. I love this community.

 

[ryuu seika]

Look at PS1, RC, some hazards on Picto, Norfair, Japes, the list goes on.

What about them? Most are actively good for me, though I can't say I like Norfair much. PS2, however, takes the part of Brawl that I struggle with most (lowered gravity) and makes it worse.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...So you're just blatantly selfish? Look, you don't like it. I get that. However, it's your duty as a player to adapt to the stage. Or, because this is the brawl community, ***** like a little baby until TOs get the impression that less people will show up if the stage is legal, so they ban it. The former makes you a pain in the *** to deal with, the latter apparently makes you right. ISN'T THAT RIGHT ALEX.

 

[ryuu seika]

I never suggested banning the stage just because of me. Sure, I'll choose it as my one counterpick ban at every possible opportunity and I'd much rather not have to but just because I deem a stage "unfair on me" doesn't mean it's unfair in general (which would be required to ban it).

I was simply trying to make the reason for my dislike of the stage clear. I shall now go back to Melee where the gravity works for Kirby and bother you no more.

 

[-LzR-]

Wow this thread is a mess. 20 pages of "air transformation has lower gravity"...

 

[teluoborg]

It's really like arguing religion isn't it...

The idea is that you can change people's minds. That you can get them to realize, or even think for a moment, "How I've been thinking about stages is wrong". I honestly believe I have achieved that with my threads on PS2-it's an example of how this kind of thing can work.

A lot of what I'm doing is appealing to TOs to convince their players, and appealing to players to convince their TOs, to do what is best for the competitive nature of the game, as opposed to what they prefer. Personal preference is not a stance to argue from when a competitive ruleset has an objective goal and a single measurable variable you can isolate and check for.

Oh my...
First you talk about convincing people they're wrong by giving them a bad theorycraft reasoning (instead of letting them reason on their own).

Then you talk about how people should convince each other to play the game the way it's meant to be played instead of playing it the way they want to.

And on top of that you regularly insult the community as a whole.

And you still wonder why people don't let you change their mind ?

 

[Life]

Oh my...
First you talk about convincing people they're wrong by giving them a bad theorycraft reasoning (instead of letting them reason on their own).

Then you talk about how people should convince each other to play the game the way it's meant to be played instead of playing it the way they want to.

And on top of that you regularly insult the community as a whole.

And you still wonder why people don't let you change their mind ?

The way this game is meant to be played? You mean FFAs with Bob-ombs and Temple New Pork City on? Oh, and don't forget that we can't play in tournaments as Sakurai hates winning and losing (despite this, he keeps the tournament bracket mode?...), but we ARE allowed to turn gravity super-high/low, turn on flowers, make people metal, etc.

You also have yet to say why BPC's theorycraft is bad or consider that most people's "own reasoning" is "this stage is terribad, BAN".

I always saw the insult thing as frustration, but eh.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh my...
First you talk about convincing people they're wrong by giving them a bad theorycraft reasoning (instead of letting them reason on their own).

You know, normally when an argument is bad, instead of just saying "your argument sucks", you have to say why. Also, you seem to be forgetting something. That "bad theorycraft" is based on what the people who playtested this stage said. You know, Raziek, Shaya, the TOs who got in a ****ton of playtesting of the stage in tournament matches. So if it's bad theorycraft (or, more accurately, bad playtesting) please tell me why instead of acting all high and mighty about it and saying "yeah, this is bad" with no reasons given.

Then you talk about how people should convince each other to play the game the way it's meant to be played instead of playing it the way they want to.

"The way it's meant to be played"? Do you even understand what I'm trying to say?
I wrote a few very long articles about how to ensure that a ruleset offers the most competitive depth. I'm not saying how it's "meant" to be played, I'm stating how the competitive community should do it if they want that moniker to be accurate. I'm not talking out of my *** here! And yes, in case you haven't noticed, I have a very low opinion of personal preference when making rulesets; partially because it's known to lead to very anticompetitive results. The way people want to play the game should, in the competitive community, take the back seat to what is more competitive.

And on top of that you regularly insult the community as a whole.

Imagine you spend days compiling points for a logical explanation of, say, how evolution works. You bring examples, logical explanation of every point you have and how microevolution goes into macroevolution, how it's a cornerstone of modern biology, and how it's a fact of life. And then you get **** on for it in debate; the people debating against you want to leave it up to personal preference what gets taught in schools between that and the nordic creation myth, they ignore any facts or logic you have to present, and basically say, "I don't care what you have to say, I'm going to do it the way I want". At this point would you consider it unreasonable, or even an insult, if you called them idiots? It's frustrating to work with a community that is this flat-out stupid! Hell, you can explain very, very clearly to people why their opinion of a stage is wrong (case in point: Alex's opinion that PS2 takes control out of the player's hands during the air section; something which is flat-out ********), and they won't feel the need to change their opinions!
I'm sticking with "scrub" because it is almost 100% certain that it is an accurate description of the brawl community. Almost everyone in this community is an anticompetitive scrub.

And you still wonder why people don't let you change their mind ?

Because they are idiots. I'm done wondering.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Save your breath BPC, really....
you've tried many times already to convince people to have logic and reasoning, to make them think. You did your best until you ran out of your manners and started insults because people do not listen.
They didn't, they aren't and they won't. Really, just relax at least for a while....

 

[Smasher89]

Did dislike the stage but couldn´t find a reason to ban it, nice too see there´s convincing enough proof that "forces" it to stay on, I know I´ll not ban it now =)

 

[fkacyan]

There really isn't anything wrong with PS2, folks.

It just doesn't bring anything new to the table that doesn't help characters who don't need the help.

And yes, the steg list is used to balance characters, or Temple / Pork City wouldn't be banned. Let's be serious.

 

[Gea]

What. Wat. Wut.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I find people who want the stage banned seemed to want it banned because the transformations are different or need to be learned.

Then the Marth's side B thing, do people know that Link's gale boomerang dragging Marth will do the same thing everywhere?

Also I don't get the whole, it won't be counter picked, argument. I counter pick Castle Siege as Lucario, I've seen players like Mr.Doom cp it again Ice Climbers. It's not our decision to decide this or know that is for players to decide if they will. We don't remove a stage because it's not counterpicked often.



Also BPC calm down.

 

[T-block]

I know I've said it before - I probably even said it in this thread. We are only beginning to understand whether PS2 is good or bad for certain characters. I am tired of seeing people on one side say "no one would CP this stage, why include it?" and people on the other side say "this stage is so fair, no one would CP it". When those arguments starting popping up, we did not have enough information to be making those claims. Now we do have more information. Not much, but it's already quite clear that these are just flat-out false.

I'll include pictures just so this doesn't get ignored:

I cannot speak as strongly for Yoshi (although I have heard it from the mouth of an established Yoshi main that PS2 is a strong Yoshi stage), but it is a very real possibility that Lucas would CP this stage in a BEST-OF-THREE set. That means top two counterpick (generally if Brinstar gets banned, or if the opponent uses Brinstar better than Lucas - regardless, it's up there). I cannot think of a better stage for Lucas to CP MK to.

On the subject of the Flying transformation, there are a few characters who gain a significant advantage here. First, characters with spammable, controllable projectiles (Lucas and Yoshi, for example =p) can take advantage of an opponent stuck in the air better than most other characters. Also, characters with moves that allow them to maneuver through the air tend to dominate - Ivysaur's u-air/d-air, Yoshi's down-b, Bowser's down-b, etc. Being able to return to the ground is more important than being able to rise quickly though, for obvious reasons.

 

[T-block]

Spent some time testing - these are the characters that can get to the ground somewhat quickly...nothing unexpected really.

Able to descend quickly:

• Kirby - up-b, down-b
• Zero Suit Samus - d-air
• Pikachu - up-b
• Game and Watch - d-air
• Zelda - up-b
• Sheik - d-air, up-b
• Meta Knight - up-b, down-b, glide
• Ike - up-b
• Yoshi - down-b
• Ganondorf - down-b
• Ice Climbers - d-air
• Sonic - d-air
• Bowser - down-b
• Toon Link - d-air
• Captain Falcon - down-b
• Lucas - up-b

Some control, but mobility is limited:

• Fox - up-b
• Falco - up-b
• Ivysaur - u-air
• Lucario - up-b
• Wolf - up-b
• Ness - up-b

The separation is subjective on my part... those in the first list shouldn't be afraid of committing to jumping against characters not on the list - they should be able to return to the ground much more easily than their opponent. Those in the second list can speed their descent, usually by angling up-b down, but the effect isn't as drastic.

Note the presence of Meta Knight on the first list - this is why I don't agree with this part being horrendous for Meta Knight. His aerial mobility is bad horizontally, but he still maintains a lot of his aerial mobility vertically with multiple jumps and two glides that are not affected by the lowered gravity. This transformation takes away Mach Tornado (which might be good enough in itself for some characters), but it doesn't take away his ability to fight in the air.

Of course, whether your opponent is on one of these lists is just as important as whether your character is. I think things are pretty interesting when two characters from the top list end up fighting on this stage, if both are aware of their options.

As an aside, the descent on King Dedede's up-b IS slowed.

 

[Life]

And yes, the steg list is used to balance characters, or Temple / Pork City wouldn't be banned. Let's be serious.

Circle camping breaks every matchup in the game. (Even dittos, in theory, as two people going around a circle at the same speed will never catch each other)

PS2 helps (doesn't break) ~2 characters (AFAWK), neither of which is remotely high tier, as Tblock points out above. (@Tblock, IMO MK belongs in the second list, but eh)

Bad analogy is bad.

 

[T-block]

As I said, the distinction is based on my opinion. If I were a character in the second list, I'd be scared if MK jumped up after me. Point is, MK can return to the ground reliably.

 

[teluoborg]

Let's rock !

You know, normally when an argument is bad, instead of just saying "your argument sucks", you have to say why. Also, you seem to be forgetting something. That "bad theorycraft" is based on what the people who playtested this stage said. You know, Raziek, Shaya, the TOs who got in a ****ton of playtesting of the stage in tournament matches. So if it's bad theorycraft (or, more accurately, bad playtesting) please tell me why instead of acting all high and mighty about it and saying "yeah, this is bad" with no reasons given.

I don't see why I should give reasons to this kind of arguments when you don't bring data to support your claims. All you have is inputs of people saying "PS2 should be starter" or "PS2 is neutral".
How is that different from the bazillion people saying the contrary ?

"The way it's meant to be played"? Do you even understand what I'm trying to say?
I wrote a few very long articles about how to ensure that a ruleset offers the most competitive depth. I'm not saying how it's "meant" to be played, I'm stating how the competitive community should do it if they want that moniker to be accurate. I'm not talking out of my *** here! And yes, in case you haven't noticed, I have a very low opinion of personal preference when making rulesets; partially because it's known to lead to very anticompetitive results. The way people want to play the game should, in the competitive community, take the back seat to what is more competitive.

Again, the only data you provide is your own input of your own point of view, talk about objectivity.

Imagine you spend days compiling points for a logical explanation of
[etc]
I'm sticking with "scrub" because it is almost 100% certain that it is an accurate description of the brawl community. Almost everyone in this community is an anticompetitive scrub.

Now you think you're Charles Darwin. OK.
It's not about the amount of work you provide, it's about how it's done.
Right now all you have is your capacity to convince people they are wrong because all your OP and responses and blog and whatever are built on nothing but your beliefs.
No data = no objectivity = no credibility.

Because they are idiots. I'm done wondering.

Goto point 3

There's a thing that you don't understand about this community : people are a lot less dumb than you make it look like.
A lot of people would like to have data under their eyes and make the decision by themselves, but all you have to offer is a weak "after a lot of test it's ok, everyone that says it isn't is a scrub.".


TL;DR
CP : yes.
Starter : bring data if you want people to ever consider it.

 

[Keitaro]

Wow BPC, you sound just like Inui.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

BPC tries to listen to people, sometimes, Inui just ignore what you are saying and says, "I'm right your wrong"

You could post irrefutable facts that Ike isn't the 5th worst in the game and he would ignore it.

BPC doesn't do this, imo. He's forceful of his opinion, but he's not ignorant of everything and everyone around him.

Let's stick to PS2, please and thank you.

 

[MK26]

Let's rock !

I'm gonna spare BPC a fit of frothing at the mouth by telling you to

 

[Tesh]

MK does belong in the 2nd List. Its pretty awkward trying to use glide as a dive attack. It belongs under limited mobility. Ofcourse MK won't ever be the worst in any situation, but he doesn't really excel well on this stage. Other characters with faster more controlled ways to dive will do better at fighting here as opposed to just avoiding the juggle.

Yoshi I think is amazing on the flying portion. Stalling, diving, rising, aerial grabs, a projectile thats perfect for this situation and a killer Uair that can take stocks early here.

Snake and Falco are pretty much hopeless here if they wind up leaving the ground (and part of falco's gameplan is leaving the ground over and over).

 

[!!!RM!!!]

The only problems I see with it is the fact that every time the stage transforms there's a 3/4 chance of a generally stally 50-100 seconds on air, electric, or ground transformation. Now stalling may not be the only take on all of these transformations, but it is definitely the safest and most reliable route to take on most of them.

You control the center of electricity and your opponent is on the ledge. Your opponent is at a greatly disadvantaged position no matter what they do. If they stay on the ledge they put themselves in a position where you can force their ledge grab count up to merit a DQ. If they try to do ledge attacks>aerials like shaya said, well all you're trying to do is force ledge grabs anyways, so its not like they have any choice but to react to your Dtilt above them. And considering most characters can simply roll backwards after forcing the ledge release your opponent is really left optionless unless they want to attempt an approach against an opponent who is protected by, and I quote: " strong defensive positions for both players, in which regaining a lead is simply not feasible against a strong and smart camper." BPC, unless your opinion has shockingly changed about this, then you can't argue that approaching from the ledge is a good idea at all.

TL;DR: Electric transformation is a stage that encourages unpunishable camping and abuse of the LGL for 50-100 seconds per match.

6:20 - 7:10 of the match left after stalling on electricity transformation.

Now for the air transformation...
Well if you're trying to approach you're basically trying to get your opponent into the air so you can punish them hard. But it works both ways. If you get hit into the air what are you gonna do? Aggressively attempt to get back to the stage with Dairs or stall-fall aerials? Most likely not since your opponent has the advantage of being below you where their tilts and aerials can easily out-range your options in most cases. No, a much more reliable method of getting back onto the stage would be simply air camping until the stage switches back or move to the ledge and camp the entire 50-100 seconds. Is there any reason to put yourself in a position where you might get wind gayed? If you feel approaching is a better option because there's high risk-high reward going on then by all means approach. I'm just putting out my opinion on the stage, and I don't expect anyone to strictly adhere to my beliefs.

TL;DR: Approaching is possible, but is a high risk-high reward situation and simple camping is a more reliable strategy.

4:40 - 6:20 of match left after being in a constant high-risk situation or ledge/air camping for 50-100 seconds.

And ground transformation arguably suffers from the same problems as PS1 fire transformation, but to a lesser extent. Regardless, approaching an opponent on the side of the wall sets you up to get shut down since spacing yourself the right distance from the wall can completely shut down your opponent's ability to move out of the way of your juggling. The platforms aren't a problem since they actually give you more options while approaching. I'd say camping is a better option on ground than approaching, but both are viable options imo. But in case you're at high percent or can't afford the momentum loss that a failed approach can net you...

2:50 - 5:30 of the match left after three transformations of stalling. I'm not too fond of wasting 2:30 - 5:10 camping against anyone outside of the Falco matchup, so I'm kinda leany on PS2. I feel that extensive camping isn't a part of the metagame that we want to be emphasized too much, but whatever its just my opinion.


"I really suggest that you stop acting like you care about more than your own personal bias."

^^^Pretty much sums up how I feel about all this. imo this thread doesn't need to exist since PS2 is legal anyways. I think BPC just wants to prove he's better than all the "scrubs" he sees on SWF by making a big counter-argument thread against them. :/

 

[T-block]

Whoa, just let me correct you on a couple of things here.

The stage remains in neutral state for 50-55 seconds. Each transformation lasts 35-40 seconds or so, so your numbers are already reaaaaally off.

I believe PS1 follows the same timing. Rock, Fire, and sometimes Water often lead to stalling the transformation on PS1, just as Electric, and sometimes Flying and Ground lead to stalling the transformation on PS2.

The stalling aspect is certainly no reason to ban the stage, especially if you have no problem with PS1.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Promoting camping is not a good criteria mainly because it CAN be beaten, at least in PS2.

imo this thread doesn't need to exist since PS2 is legal anyways.

This thread is to state PS2 not as legal, but as STARTER.
It is banned in a lot of places for no reason. Also, it won't be legal in Apex.

I think BPC just wants to prove he's better than all the "scrubs" he sees on SWF by making a big counter-argument thread against them. :/

Actually, I think he IS better than most people. He shows REASONINGS behind every comment, he has a strong will and he CAN change his mind if he hears a good reason. Problem is that nobody can counter his points.

 

[!!!RM!!!]

"and that it is, again, up for around 50-100 seconds each game... "

I misinterpreted this. >_> Stalling is still a big problem on both stages imo. Not that stalling for half the game is bad or detrimental to the metagame or anything. But I feel the metagame would be better off on a stage like halberd or castle siege where camping isn't as necessary to win.

And a neutral where stalling is rewarded doesn't seem like a great idea. Remember that in even in Melee with all it's speed of play still decayed to camping when the fire and rock transformations came up on PS1. Probably one of the reasons why it was moved to counterpick...

@Kyo: He's smart, but I just don't see the point in relentlessly defending your beliefs when it won't do you or the community any good. Its an argument that isn't out to accomplish anything that will likely happen amongst any TOs out there.

 

[Ghostbone]

I misinterpreted this. >_> Stalling is still a big problem on both stages imo. Not that stalling for half the game is bad or detrimental to the metagame or anything. But I feel the metagame would be better off on a stage like halberd or castle siege where camping isn't as necessary to win.

Have you ever played a reaaaaally campy game on smashville? It's at least as bad as camping on PS2

And a neutral where stalling is rewarded doesn't seem like a great idea. Remember that in even in Melee with all it's speed of play still decayed to camping when the fire and rock transformations came up on PS1. Probably one of the reasons why it was moved to counterpick...

More like it was a great stage for fox.

@Kyo: He's smart, but I just don't see the point in relentlessly defending your beliefs when it won't do you or the community any good. Its an argument that isn't out to accomplish anything that will likely happen amongst any TOs out there.

It can make the people who actually care more educated though.

 

[Tesh]

Electric phase has nonpunishable camping? If someone is under the platforms, you can just space stuff against them and the treadmills retreat it for you (works both ways). You can get to them and attack them safely so I think you might be looking at that part a bit wrong.

As for the ground phase....Delfino stops at a alot of locations that have a "good camping spot" similar to ground phase.