Pokemon Stadium 2: Full Analysis, Gameplay Implications, and a really fair stage

[chaosmaster1991]

static /= "might as well be the same as static"

Let's see... assuming PS2 was only that one transformation, Marth dying after a sideB in that specific position would be fine, the stage is static after all and the player knows that he shouldn't sideB there the same way he knows he shouldn't recover the wrong way on FD.

Now, PS2 transforms and thus is not static, but the fact that you have that much warning before the problematic situation actually becomes an issue makes it so close to static (you know you aren't allowed to sideB at that point a few seconds before the change actually happens) that it doesn't matter.

 

[Tesh]

BPC makes it nearly impossible for anyone to agree with him.

I can respect your opinion Triple R, but it doesn't add up for me if you would advocate Delfino, Halberd, Ps1 and Lylat being legal. They all have random changing situations that can screw you over if you don't understand them at all.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC makes it nearly impossible for anyone to agree with him.

I can respect your opinion Triple R, but it doesn't add up for me if you would advocate Delfino, Halberd, Ps1 and Lylat being legal. They all have random changing situations that can screw you over if you don't understand them at all.

Because it's a sadly observable fact that the content of the message is less important than the form. I need a PR crew.

 

[Tesh]

I see where you are coming from BPC, but most people are going to try NOT to if you treat them that way. As soon as someone disses a legal stage isn't pictochat you start swearing and calling them scrubby *******. No one is going to want to be on your side like that.

 

[Life]

Tesh, BPC gets frustrated easily because he says the same things over and over and gets ignored. Can't really blame the guy.

 

[Tesh]

Link me to a post from like 2008-09 where he wasn't a rude douchebag and I'll believe you. Otherwise I think he just can't stand it when people don't agree with his ideals.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Link me to a post from like 2008-09 where he wasn't a rude douchebag and I'll believe you. Otherwise I think he just can't stand it when people don't agree with his ideals.

Actually, tonight's row of posts have been a (frankly embarrassing) exception to the rule. You haven't been looking if you haven't seen me posting civilly in the last while. 08-09 doesn't matter; I've been posting kindly from 10-11 in regards to everyone except, well, Jebus. I don't know what's wrong... I'm just in a lousy ****ing mood tonight and I'm letting that out on whatshisname. Even if he is critically wrong and not reading the reasoning I'm presenting to him as to why he's wrong and choosing to cling to the belief that competition is subjective, he still deserves to be treated like a normal adult in this discussion; something I didn't even grant him when he joined it, so I'd like to apologize. If you'd like to discuss this rationally with me, I recommend reading:

The OP of this thread. Seriously, I don't think you did.
http://gametheorybootcamp.blogspot.com/2010/12/arguing-against-subjectivity-crafting.html <- explains why it's not a matter of subjectivity, and why PS2 is clearly competitive

Mostly the latter, I suppose. I'll try to debate with you rationally about it when I'm capable of posting without foaming at the mouth.


Also I had a post somewhere where I explained literally every argument away, I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[fkacyan]

@Those wondering why top tiers would love the stage:

Actaully spend some time against a good MK, Snake, or Falco on some of the transformations.

 

[Tesh]

Air phase isn't good for MK, Snake or Falco. They just get juggled and only MK can make it to the ground (only if close enough to cape downward)

I can see MK, Snake and Falco being good on electric and ground because of stage control if they are careful.

Smart play on all phases leads to stalling just like PS1. Thats all it really comes down to. If you decide not to stall, you deserve to get ***** just like you would on PS1 or Delfino.

 

[fkacyan]

Air phase isn't good for MK, Snake or Falco. They just get juggled and only MK can make it to the ground (only if close enough to cape downward)

I can see MK, Snake and Falco being good on electric and ground because of stage control if they are careful.

Smart play on all phases leads to stalling just like PS1. Thats all it really comes down to. If you decide not to stall, you deserve to get ***** just like you would on PS1 or Delfino.

Air phase isn't "good" for any character, as being above your opponent is universally the worst position in the game.

 

[-LzR-]

Being good on one of the transformations being a reason for a char to be good on this stage is like saying a character is good in a drawing in Pictochat.

 

[fkacyan]

Being good on one of the transformations being a reason for a char to be good on this stage is like saying a character is good in a drawing in Pictochat.

All that makes PS2 significantly different from most stages are the transformations. Without them it wouldn't add anything significant to the game, nor would anybody care about its legality.

 

[Tesh]

Air phase isn't "good" for any character, as being above your opponent is universally the worst position in the game.

Air phase is good for character in the same way RC is. It just sucks for alot of people and certain characters can still play well there. Sonic, GnW, ZSS all do well there because they can't get stuck in the air like Snake, MK and Falco. Having a dive attack frees you from the juggling trouble. Many others can stall the phase out like Samus, Fox, Sonic etc. with their specials due to low gravity.

GnW also has Uair instakill on it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxm2POQnJLg which I would say makes him pretty dangerous there. He is also pretty decent on the other transformations with access to wall locks, powerful low lag smashes and great edge traps on the treadmills.

Air phase is pretty bad for mk because he can't jump without getting stuck in the air. He falls slowly and has poor aerial mobility so he might be forced to drill rush, glide or cape to land. None of these work if he is high in the air. His gimp game is also hurt because most characters can just double jump and cover more distance than shuttle loop or simply stall until he runs out of jumps.

Falco and Snake have it even worse, they just can't go into the air at all without getting stuck.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, like BPC has pointed, air is horrible for MK. Actually I have never felt so helpless with MK on anywhere else than there. I literally can't use nado, I can't jump or I can't do pretty much anything.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's not "horrible", but it's definitely bad. In general MK is mediocre on air; he simply cannot afford to jump at all.
Snake is half decent on air mostly because it's fairly hard to get him off the ground, he has far more options to avoid being juggled (you can go way further offstage, plus the rain of **** he has is pretty impressive).
Falco... yeah, falco's pretty much boned.

 

[fkacyan]

Every character is better than every character provided they are the ones below the other on air phase.

This isn't hard to figure out.

 

[Judo777]

Every character is better than every character provided they are the ones below the other on air phase.

This isn't hard to figure out.

Actually there are a few characters that can simply stall up in one of the corners where the other person has to go in the air long before they jump up in order to get them. I don't think this spot is that bad for them. Among these are jiggs, samus, Rob, and possibly GW though im not sure. If you get in the far corner the opponent has to go offstage before jumping up to try and hit you. This ruins a large element of their surprise especially if they don't have fast DJ's. After that they can just stall the clock out.

 

[Tesh]

Having greater mobility helps you outmaneuver the other guy. GnW does fine because of his dive attack. As soon as you jump to try to hit him, he can dive past you and get to the ground before you.

Being below the other guy onstage is preferable on every stage though....

 

[-LzR-]

I guess FD is hardcore now that you can be below everyone for everyone.

 

[fkacyan]

I guess FD is hardcore now that you can be below everyone for everyone.

I'd ask if you'd ever herped so hard that you derped, but that entire post is one huge DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERP.

We're discussing the air segment, and people are talking about how some character enjoy the air.

Hint: Most characters that can airstall aren't viable to begin with, and if you think Rob, Samus, or Jiggs is gonna get a percent lead in a non-low tiers against a viable character and use that segment to aircamp them, you're out of your mind.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'd ask if you'd ever herped so hard that you derped, but that entire post is one huge DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERP.

We're discussing the air segment, and people are talking about how some character enjoy the air.

Hint: Most characters that can airstall aren't viable to begin with, and if you think Rob, Samus, or Jiggs is gonna get a percent lead in a non-low tiers against a viable character and use that segment to aircamp them, you're out of your mind.

Have you ever played a good Samus? Samus has no trouble inflicting damage.

 

[cMeDu]

Supreme Dirt, I think he means that Samus can't do jack against a non-low tier opponent in the first place.
Seriously, walk+powershield all her projectiles and then proceed to ****.

But on the topic of PS2...
I think the airstage is the only part that irks me about this transformation. Ps2 is a pretty decent CP for ice climbers imo...

 

[fkacyan]

Supreme Dirt, I think he means that Samus can't do jack against a non-low tier opponent in the first place.
Seriously, walk+powershield all her projectiles and then proceed to ****.

But on the topic of PS2...
I think the airstage is the only part that irks me about this transformation. Ps2 is a pretty decent CP for ice climbers imo...

ICs hate every single transformation AND the basic stage because it has platforms.

 

[Ghostbone]

ICs hate every single transformation AND the basic stage because it has platforms.

lol they only hate it compared to like, FD, BF and Smashville.

It's average for them.

 

[fkacyan]

lol they only hate it compared to like, FD, BF and Smashville.

It's average for them.

The transformations actively disrupt grabs. It's below average.

 

[Tesh]

Ice Climbers suck pretty bad on alot of stages though. They don't adapt too well to dynamic stages.

About the air phase, I just want to point out that its very much about juggles. If you want to say that all character that can stall during the air phase are unviable (seems irrelevant) I'd also like to point out that being able to air stall is just one option if you happen to be horrible on this phase like Ice Climbers, Fox and Marth all are. Being able to avoid juggles and reverse them using great mobility horizontally (like wario, wolf and squirtle) or vertically (like sonic, zss, gnw) is also useful. Yoshi is great in both areas.

What exactly stand out to you as bannable about this stuff though? None of it winds up being broken or impossible to prepare for or react to.

 

[teluoborg]

Nobody said this stage was bannable.
It's just that BPC keeps saying that PS2 is the best starter, hence the massive lulz.

PS2 is just a stage that promotes stalling through 4 of its 4 transformations, that's why no one likes it.
Else it's a pretty viable CP.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Stallable =/= CP quality.
FYI, PS1 is much more stallable than PS2, and it is considered a starter almost always.

 

[Ghostbone]

Nobody said this stage was bannable.
It's just that BPC keeps saying that PS2 is the best starter, hence the massive lulz.

Unfortunately I have to deal with people that want it banned....

PS2 is just a stage that promotes stalling through 4 of its 4 transformations, that's why no one likes it.
Else it's a pretty viable CP.

But it doesn't?
Ground isn't that bad, Ice promotes offense if you know what you're doing, air is ******** sure, and electric sounds a lot worse in theory than in practice.

 

[teluoborg]

@Kyokoro : I'd like to know how PS1 is more stallable than PS2, as it has at least 1 transformation that doesn't disadvantages approaches. And yeah it's considered starter, but it shouldn't.

@ghostbone : if the majority of your community doesn't like a stage then it probably won't appear in a tournament set, even if it's legal. So there's no real point in an argument like that.
Also yes, ground is that bad and so is electricity, I mean if someone gets into one specific spot it's better to just wait until the transfo ends than try to approach him.
And I don't see how ice promotes offense (I mean, aside from sliding smashes lol)

 

[Ghostbone]

@ghostbone : if the majority of your community doesn't like a stage then it probably won't appear in a tournament set, even if it's legal. So there's no real point in an argument like that.

-insert nobody uses Ganon let's ban him argument-

Also yes, ground is that bad and so is electricity, I mean if someone gets into one specific spot it's better to just wait until the transfo ends than try to approach him.
And I don't see how ice promotes offense (I mean, aside from sliding smashes lol)

In my experience it really isn't that bad.

On Ice way more attacks are safe on shield and there are actually added combos.

 

[-LzR-]

Why do people think temporary defensive positions aren't cool for "neutrals"?

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Kyokoro : I'd like to know how PS1 is more stallable than PS2, as it has at least 1 transformation that doesn't disadvantages approaches.

*starts thinking on a response regarding a comparation Ice-Grass, Ground-Rock, the fact that PS1 can be stalled by every character while PS2 has some few character-transformation specific ways of stall, and other stuff*

And yeah it's considered starter, but it shouldn't.

*stops caring to respond*

I may answer later... I need to sleep right now.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Nobody said this stage was bannable.
It's just that BPC keeps saying that PS2 is the best starter, hence the massive lulz.

PS2 is just a stage that promotes stalling through 4 of its 4 transformations, that's why no one likes it.
Else it's a pretty viable CP.

Let's see here... It's hard to approach around ground, but not that hard. Comparable to approaching past the windmill on PS1.
Ice aids approaches and in most cases does not encourage stalling at all.
Air can be stalled, but is probably less stalled than PS1's fire transformation.
Electricity is, again, not as bad as a corresponding PS1 transformation.

It's simply not true that PS2 promotes excessive stalling. Furthermore, even if that is the case, why should it discredit a stage from being a starter?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=289511

Unless this stallable quality polarizes the stage's matchups somehow (it's shown that it doesn't in playtesting), it really should have absolutely nothing to do with the stage's validity as a starter, because as far as I can tell, that is the only thing that matters.

@Kyokoro : I'd like to know how PS1 is more stallable than PS2, as it has at least 1 transformation that doesn't disadvantages approaches. And yeah it's considered starter, but it shouldn't.

PS2 has 1, and 2 that aren't nearly as harsh as PS1. And furthermore, why should a stage like PS1, a stage which is ridiculously unpolarizing, not be a starter? Please, explain your logic behind picking a starter, and if it's different from the one I presented in that thread I linked to above, explain why it makes more sense.

@ghostbone : if the majority of your community doesn't like a stage then it probably won't appear in a tournament set, even if it's legal. So there's no real point in an argument like that.

...Except for the people who would pick it. Even if they ban it, you got them to waste their stage ban on a stage which really is not good for your character. I mean, yoshi is hated by most of the community and almost never appears in a tournament set... ban yoshi?

 

[Tesh]

Yoshi actually is pretty gay and should be banned. Olimar too. They are both "janky" imo.

 

[Gea]

...Except for the people who would pick it. Even if they ban it, you got them to waste their stage ban on a stage which really is not good for your character. I mean, yoshi is hated by most of the community and almost never appears in a tournament set... ban yoshi?

I think the point was ultimately the TOs decide was stages to allow, and oftentimes stages are not included because they are unpopular, not ban worthy. Ergo this discussion is pointless. Even if you could factually prove this to be the most "balanced" stage of them all, popular opinion counteracts you and that is the end of that.

Yoshi actually is pretty gay and should be banned. Olimar too. They are both "janky" imo.

+rep for Tesh

 

[Tesh]

Gea is right there ofcourse. It pretty much invalidates any persuasive writing on these forums, but when it comes down to it, the TO can do whatever they want without it having to make sense or follow a standard.

Even in the BBRRC I'm sure certain folks opinion will matter more than others by a large margin.

What we really should focus on in this forum is objective information. Like figuring out the green greens glitch, slope CGs on YI:M. At least if we can offer of good information, people can form opinions with a better understanding.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think the point was ultimately the TOs decide was stages to allow, and oftentimes stages are not included because they are unpopular, not ban worthy. Ergo this discussion is pointless. Even if you could factually prove this to be the most "balanced" stage of them all, popular opinion counteracts you and that is the end of that.

It's really like arguing religion isn't it...

The idea is that you can change people's minds. That you can get them to realize, or even think for a moment, "How I've been thinking about stages is wrong". I honestly believe I have achieved that with my threads on PS2-it's an example of how this kind of thing can work.

A lot of what I'm doing is appealing to TOs to convince their players, and appealing to players to convince their TOs, to do what is best for the competitive nature of the game, as opposed to what they prefer. Personal preference is not a stance to argue from when a competitive ruleset has an objective goal and a single measurable variable you can isolate and check for.

 

[Gea]

I honestly believe I have achieved that with my threads on PS2-it's an example of how this kind of thing can work.

It remains an unpopular stage, and is fairly often debated on whether it should be allowed just because how annoying people find it. You can inform people of the facts, but it's futile and annoying to try and persuade people who are already informed or have a different opinion. Most players do not like dynamic stages, they prefer static ones regardless of balance. Most players find PS2's changes distracting from gameplay, even if you do not. And it's silly to say otherwise to people. Sure, maybe they would find battery less cumbersome if they played the stage more, and maybe learn how to deal with the wind segment. But there is little incentive for these players and you cannot provide them with that incentive, the game is what it is.

Should it be banned? No. But there are plenty of unpopular stages that should be not banned. Should it be starter? Well, you are in the extreme minority if you think so, my opinion aside. Ultimately the community must choose "fun" for the majority or create objective standards and deal with the aftermath. Guess which is more dominant and creates the most amount of happy players?

 

[Tesh]

Isn't this stage already legal under the BBRRC? People even cped it at Pound.