Pokemon Stadium 2: Full Analysis, Gameplay Implications, and a really fair stage

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm disappointed, Nicole.

Almost nobody CPs Castle Siege, should we ban that too?

The argument was to legalize it as a starter, and you yourself proved why. Nobody NEEDS this stage. Nobody really counterpicks it. That PROBABLY means it's because it's a damn fair stage, where few characters have any innate advantages.

Castle siege is one of my CPs...except against Arty who always bans it on me.

Anyways, this stage isn't broken, nor is it bannable.

Doesn't that sound a lot like starter material? Moreso than FD, which many characters counterpick?

That isn't a correlation of being a starter.

 

[BSP]

Does anyone else agree that if PS1 is a starter, PS2 should be too? I don't see what makes PS1 better suited for starter than PS2 when its got that windmill, construction site, and the tree on fire. It's got one transformation (Grass) that doesn't promote heavy camping (which usually stops the match alltogether) in one spot.

If you knock two, you knock one as well IMO.

 

[Tesh]

They both seem a bit too timeout friendly for a starter in a 5 stage list to me. Not sure how much that matters to people but its up there with Delfino and Castle Seige as far as time wasting.

 

[-LzR-]

Tesh got timed out in a tourney and thinks it's cheap so a stage where it's a little more powerful as a starter would be cheap.
Timeouts are legit son.

And if that is the problem, why is SV a starter? It's like too good for timing out.

 

[Tesh]

Tesh got timed out in a tourney and thinks it's cheap so a stage where it's a little more powerful as a starter would be cheap.
Timeouts are legit son.

And if that is the problem, why is SV a starter? It's like too good for timing out.

I find it difficult to respect your position when you behave that way. Lets see if someone more intelligent shows up and explains this to you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Castle siege is one of my CPs...except against Arty who always bans it on me.

Anyways, this stage isn't broken, nor is it bannable.



That isn't a correlation of being a starter.

Actually, it kinda is. The actual correlation is, "the less polar, the better suited". So while number of times being a counterpick may not be a direct correlation (you very rarely see Frigate banned/counterpicked in most stagelists, but that doesn't make it a good starter), it's certainly a "warning sign".

They both seem a bit too timeout friendly for a starter in a 5 stage list to me. Not sure how much that matters to people but its up there with Delfino and Castle Seige as far as time wasting.

It's more friendly than, say:
-PS1 (actually, this has been shown to be far more time-out friendly than PS2)
-SV (scrooging, camping the platform)
-Battlefield (platform camping)
?

Granted, I have had my fair share of time-outs on the stage, but in that regard it is very similar to SV and PS1. No big deal.

And also, why should that impact its usability as a starter?

 

[Tesh]

Actually, it kinda is. The actual correlation is, "the less polar, the better suited". So while number of times being a counterpick may not be a direct correlation (you very rarely see Frigate banned/counterpicked in most stagelists, but that doesn't make it a good starter), it's certainly a "warning sign".



It's more friendly than, say:
-PS1 (actually, this has been shown to be far more time-out friendly than PS2)
-SV (scrooging, camping the platform)
-Battlefield (platform camping)
?

Granted, I have had my fair share of time-outs on the stage, but in that regard it is very similar to SV and PS1. No big deal.

And also, why should that impact its usability as a starter?

As I said, I wouldn't want PS1 and PS2 in a 5 stage list (which most places use). I would however add them both on a 7 or 9 stage starter list. having more than 50% of the starter list as timeout stages seems unbalanced to me. Especially if you take FD out.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Does anyone else agree that if PS1 is a starter, PS2 should be too? I don't see what makes PS1 better suited for starter than PS2 when its got that windmill, construction site, and the tree on fire. It's got one transformation (Grass) that doesn't promote heavy camping (which usually stops the match alltogether) in one spot.

If you knock two, you knock one as well IMO.

They do different things which can help or hurt characters.

So no, I don't agree if one is starter the other is an auto-include.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

As I said, I wouldn't want PS1 and PS2 in a 5 stage list (which most places use). I would however add them both on a 7 or 9 stage starter list. having more than 50% of the starter list as timeout stages seems unbalanced to me. Especially if you take FD out.

"Time-out" stages? What? Explain please. What is wrong with such stages in the starter list; why is it bad to start on stages like that?

 

[Ghostbone]

Because people don't like timeouts because they can be boring.
People forget they're playing brawl

There's nothing actually wrong with them.

 

[BSP]

They do different things which can help or hurt characters.

So no, I don't agree if one is starter the other is an auto-include.

if we don't consider timing out when determining if a stage is a starter, they should both be starter IMO.

What is our stance on time outs for starters? I would expect that we don't consider them. If we did, PS1 shouldn't be a starter.

 

[Tesh]

I know alot of the people here are in favor of full stage list striking and whatnot. But I feel when you use a starter list smaller than your full stagelist, its important that it includes balance of all the important things in the metagame.

Notice how I said "balance". Having more than 40% of the list as time wasting stages doesn't seem like a good balance to me. As I said, I'm not sure how much you value a trait like that in a stage, but I doubt people would go for a PS1,PS2,SV, ??, ?? starter list.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I know alot of the people here are in favor of full stage list striking and whatnot. But I feel when you use a starter list smaller than your full stagelist, its important that it includes balance of all the important things in the metagame.

Notice how I said "balance". Having more than 40% of the list as time wasting stages doesn't seem like a good balance to me. As I said, I'm not sure how much you value a trait like that in a stage, but I doubt people would go for a PS1,PS2,SV, ??, ?? starter list.

"Balance"? How does having a bunch of time-out inducing stages tip balance? We have a lot of stages that encourage death by KO (hell, that's 100%! What a gyp!), a bunch of stages that have platforms also doesn't seem that balanced...

You're gonna have to do better than that. Claiming that a stage increases the effectiveness of a win condition in the game is senseless. Now if this specifically helps certain characters or sways massive amounts of matchups, you have a case. But it really doesn't.

 

[ItoI6]

As a small note a strange glitch happens when Jigglypuff hits someone on the air stage with rollout, she can't control her fall after she hits someone and very slowly goes straight down to the ground. Someone can just sandbag a hit, go straight to where she'll eventually fall and just charge a smash. Or when she recovers jump in front of rollout and if she hits someone offstage be unable to move toward it. It's very annoying.

 

[ぱみゅ]

As a small note a strange glitch happens when Jigglypuff hits someone on the air stage with rollout, she can't control her fall after she hits someone and very slowly goes straight down to the ground. Someone can just sandbag a hit, go straight to where she'll eventually fall and just charge a smash. Or when she recovers jump in front of rollout and if she hits someone offstage be unable to move toward it. It's very annoying.

Do not SwordDance on the Electric stage.
Do not Rollout on the Air stage.

 

[Tesh]

"Balance"? How does having a bunch of time-out inducing stages tip balance? We have a lot of stages that encourage death by KO (hell, that's 100%! What a gyp!), a bunch of stages that have platforms also doesn't seem that balanced...

You're gonna have to do better than that. Claiming that a stage increases the effectiveness of a win condition in the game is senseless. Now if this specifically helps certain characters or sways massive amounts of matchups, you have a case. But it really doesn't.

Platforms aren't a win condition.

You also might want to note that stages with close blast zones, short ceilings and killing hazards are also not on the starter list. They make the "take 3 stocks from your opponent" win condition easier.

There are alot of interesting undeveloped little techniques on PS2. I'm glad to see that its here to stay. It may be a long while before we see it at the highest levels of play though. Maybe a top Wario in a Bo9 set might CP it, who knows.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well since the stage is very rarely counterpicked, that should be a pretty strong indication that any advantages characters gain are small.

And that's the only thing we should be looking for in a starter, is how much it skews matchups. (so basically the stages that are most commonly chosen in full stage list striking should be the starter stages).

How much it helps timeouts shouldn't be a factor at all.
UNLESS it skews matchups.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

if we don't consider timing out when determining if a stage is a starter, they should both be starter IMO.

What is our stance on time outs for starters? I would expect that we don't consider them. If we did, PS1 shouldn't be a starter.

Well they can be starter, however I don't think PS1 being a starter, if it is one on a stage-list, means PS2 is an auto starter by default.

Timeouts aren't considered unless the strat is broken on the stage.

 

[-LzR-]

Again I only see the same thing in the stage discussion. "Timeouts are bad and don't belong to starters"
Then why is SV the most common starter played when it's like so easy to timeout in the stage and it actually encourages it?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Platforms aren't a win condition.

Yep, but it's still one of those things you see all over the place in stages!

You also might want to note that stages with close blast zones, short ceilings and killing hazards are also not on the starter list. They make the "take 3 stocks from your opponent" win condition easier.

Except... There are like 5 stages where this quality is seriously noticeable:
-Halberd is a very polar stage in many matchups; snake's best counterpick, luigi loves it, most heavyweights love it, MK can really abuse it, etc
-Yoshi's Island Melee is banned almost everywhere, and even then it's both a ridiculously strong counterpick for some chars and the proud owner of a cave of life.
-Green Greens is also banned in most places, but it's a very strong counterpick for several chars so right off the table
-Corneria is banned everywhere, and with good reason.
-Warioware I don't think I need to get in to.

This is because small blastzones tend to polarize a stage of their own accord. Stages that encourage time outs... Huh, funny, PS1, PS2, and SV are considered three of the most balanced stages in the game. I wonder why that is...

The comparison is bad.

There are alot of interesting undeveloped little techniques on PS2. I'm glad to see that its here to stay. It may be a long while before we see it at the highest levels of play though. Maybe a top Wario in a Bo9 set might CP it, who knows.

LMAO why the **** do you think we want it as a starter? It's SO ****ING BALANCED!

 

[-LzR-]

PS2 is seriously amazing and I believe it's the most balanced stage in the game.

 

[Triple R]

Has no one ever used Marth's side b at the ledge of the electric stage with the belts? Vrrrrrrooooooooooooooooom! Death! He goes flying off the stage towards the blastzone far enough he can't recover....

This stage is pretty janky, don't know if you guys noticed though. Sliding on ice, fall speed changed, belts flinging characters offstage... No way is this a starter, and being a CP would be a stretch for me too.

 

[Ghostbone]

Don't use side-b at that specific spot?

None of those are reasons to ban a stage.

 

[Tesh]

Has no one ever used Marth's Up b under the lip of FD with the flatness and stuff? DEATH!!
It should be pretty obvious that the treadmills are there. The game makes sounds, flashes pictures on the background screen for like 5 seconds before it changes. THEN it should be painfully obvious that there are treadmills.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not sure if I mentioned it here, But For the Ground Transformation and Yoshi.
If he's on the tip of the (I'll just say Boulder) boulder and Ground Pounds it twice he can go through it and still Throw eggs out of it and throw out attacks as well.
Of course the player can just walk off but I'd rather stay in it and get some damage up with Egg toss.

 

[Yikarur]

Not sure if I mentioned it here, But For the Ground Transformation and Yoshi.
If he's on the tip of the (I'll just say Boulder) boulder and Ground Pounds it twice he can go through it and still Throw eggs out of it and throw out attacks as well.
Of course the player can just walk off but I'd rather stay in it and get some damage up with Egg toss.

thats known and was discovered by me I even accidently discovered it with one ground pound lol I jumped over the hill, downB and I was in xDD that was fun.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Has no one ever used Marth's side b at the ledge of the electric stage with the belts? Vrrrrrrooooooooooooooooom! Death! He goes flying off the stage towards the blastzone far enough he can't recover....

This stage is pretty janky, don't know if you guys noticed though. Sliding on ice, fall speed changed, belts flinging characters offstage... No way is this a starter, and being a CP would be a stretch for me too.

*sigh*

Can you at least pretend you read the thread? At least the OP? I spent around 15 pages refuting exactly the kind of bull**** you're spewing. Please, before you come in and spout out uninformed bull****, read the ****ing thread.

 

[Triple R]

Don't use side-b at that specific spot?

None of those are reasons to ban a stage.

How is that even logical? A characters move has funky physics on part of the stage and all you can say is don't use the move there?

Has no one ever used Marth's Up b under the lip of FD with the flatness and stuff? DEATH!!

This comparison is horrible... You're talking about something that never changes and is the fault of the player. What I talked about instead is a wonky physics due to the stage, and stuff like this will likely be found for other characters in the future.

*sigh*

Can you at least pretend you read the thread? At least the OP? I spent around 15 pages refuting exactly the kind of bull**** you're spewing. Please, before you come in and spout out uninformed bull****, read the ****ing thread.

Can you last least pretend I did read the thread? I spent around 15 pages reading the kind of bull**** you guys are spewing. Please, before you come in and spout out insults, I read the ****ing thread.

Thanks for welcome BPC.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Can you last least pretend I did read the thread? I spent around 15 pages reading the kind of bull**** you guys are spewing. Please, before you come in and spout out insults, I read the ****ing thread.

Thanks for welcome BPC.

Either you did not read the thread, or you read the thread the same way a creationist reads an article about evolution. Case in point:

How is that even logical? A characters move has funky physics on part of the stage and all you can say is don't use the move there?



This comparison is horrible... You're talking about something that never changes and is the fault of the player. What I talked about instead is a wonky physics due to the stage, and stuff like this will likely be found for other characters in the future.

Just to be clear: you are arguing the point that it's a major issue that if a certain character uses a certain move on a certain part of a certain transformation of this stage, he flies off and dies. Perhaps an interesting notice here would be that this is not a property of PS2, but rather of Marth's sideB-check it out on Pictochat or Green Greens with the wind, and you'll notice the same thing-if marth hits the ledge during his sideB, he flies off and dies. So essentially, nothing happens that couldn't happen anywhere else.

But this has nothing to do with whether the stage is banworthy or not! That it's even being made into an issue after 15 pages of this crap points to the fact that, surprise surprise, you did not read the thread. You still have no idea what you're talking about. You still do not understand the very basic premises of stage discussion. You still do not understand why this is such a ridiculous non-issue. You're not even trying to understand what we're talking about. So let me spell it out for you, loud and clear.

If using a move during a certain transformation of a stage will cause you to die, do not use that move. It becomes even more clear when you consider the conditions:
-Marth knows that his sideB kills him in that situation
-Marth has moves other than his sideB in his moveset
-The transformation is not sudden; it has over 7 seconds (for comparison: warlock punch has about 1 second of startup lag) of warning before activating.

Honestly, this is a case of critical lack of stage knowledge, and the stage "kills" marth by abusing the wonky qualities of his sideB in the exact same way FD "kills" marth by abusing the linear nature of his upB. And what a coincidence; in both cases, it doesn't happen to good players. This has been explained multiple times over the course of the thread, and pointing to that as an issue is truly akin to a creationist claiming to have read scientific literature on evolution and still think that there are no transitional fossils, or that genes cannot change. It's stupid, and it's simply hilarious to expect me to believe that you actually were paying attention when you read the thread if you pull out crap like that. You either didn't, or you did it so poorly that it doesn't matter that you did.

Also, I'm sorry if my response was... frank. I've been in a very, very lousy mood lately.

 

[Triple R]

So now you bring in your personal religious arguments into the picture....

So it's not really Marth's side b that causes the death, but the wind effects that combined with the side b that does it.

Honestly, I'm not going to argue with you. It's really a matter of what people consider competitive in smash bros., which is completely subjective. I don't think changes in physics should be in competitive Smash, and you think they should be allowed.

You simply insult people who oppose your view, which is completely inappropriate. It's basically the reason I view your threads as jokes. You did some good research on a bunch of stages, but that doesn't mean you can insult people and basically call them dumb...

 

[Tesh]

I don't even know how to explain to you how silly it is to complain about that. I could as easily tell you don't use Dolphin slash at the spot where you will go under the lip. It doesn't matter if the stage changes. It gives you a huge warning before it changes. Much like smashville, delfino, frigate, rainbow cruise, castle seige. You can't just complain about things changing when you get a HUGE warning. Unless you want to play on FD and BF only. And tbh sometimes the background changes on FD and I can't see grenades so I don't wanna play there either. Its wonky.

BPC does argue like he might be overdosing on steroids though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So now you bring in your personal religious arguments into the picture....

"Personal religious arguments"? It's a fair comparison regardless of what you believe in–these arguments are presented multiple times within the thread, and you clearly were not paying attention. If uninformed (or intentionally dishonest) morons were spouting their mouths off on another topic that should be beyond debate, I would've taken that as a comparison. On a side note, please tell me you're a creationist. That would move this from depressing into hilarious very, very fast.

So it's not really Marth's side b that causes the death, but the wind effects that combined with the side b that does it.

The act of hitting the ledge, technically. AFAIK, you can probably replicate this on FD using TL's dair or a similar wind effect.

Honestly, I'm not going to argue with you. It's really a matter of what people consider competitive in smash bros., which is completely subjective.

NO IT IS NOT.

What is and is not competitive is completely and utterly objective. It's not always easy to figure out, but that's never made anything subjective. The game has more competitive depth with element X (in this case PS2) than without element X; therefore it would be more competitive to include element X. This is simply not a claim you can make.

I don't think changes in physics should be in competitive Smash, and you think they should be allowed.

I know they should be allowed in the context of Pokemon Stadium 2, because they raise the competitive depth of the game. It's not a matter of opinion any more!

You simply insult people who oppose your view, which is completely inappropriate. It's basically the reason I view your threads as jokes. You did some good research on a bunch of stages, but that doesn't mean you can insult people and basically call them dumb...

No. Posts like your last bunch do. Just to be perfectly clear, you came into a thread which was IMO more or less finished, where most sane smashers have concluded that the stage is legitimate (FYI: I feel that I am highly responsible for the widespread acceptance of Pokemon Stadium 2 from everywhere from Atlantic North to the BBRRC to ****ing Germany, a region that bans RC and has its eyes on Brinstar), spout uneducated tripe and show that you simply do not know the subject matter at all! Plus, you didn't even take the slightest step of reasoning (which is more competitive: FD only or Hyrule only? This is not a matter of opinion, and just an instant of simple reasoning shows that the entire idea of "competitive is subjective" is ridiculous)!

If I'm not allowed to call someone on being stupid, then there's something wrong. I'm sorry, but your "opinions" on competitive brawl have about as much place in here as a redneck illiterate's do in a debate about the validity of string theory as you are completely unqualified to discuss the matter intelligently and rationally. And I'm the one whose posts are jokes?

Pick up some basic game and ruleset design theory before spouting your mouth out. And yes, I'm mad. I don't even know why, but I'm mad.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh man, PS2.

This is such a great stage for some characters that really don't need another counterpick!

It's tamer than stages like Picto, though, so if that's legal I don't see why the hell not.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Great? K, Gimme some chars where PS2 is a legit counterpick.

 

[Triple R]

Oh BPC, you're such a funny guy. Not only do you not accept other people's opinions, you also do a horrible job trying to convince them you're right. This is where I stop. Maybe you'll learn better in the future...

 

[Tesh]

Oh man, PS2.

This is such a great stage for some characters that really don't need another counterpick!

It's tamer than stages like Picto, though, so if that's legal I don't see why the hell not.

I'd like to know this as well. I really don't see a top tier that would love this stage tbh. Everone has some neat tricks here and there, but overall the stage doesn't seem that favorable for most good characters.

I'm pretty sure an ICs main cped Polt here at Pound and won the match. Pretty interesting choice.


Yea BPC is alot of nonsense and rage. Don't mind him.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh BPC, you're such a funny guy. Not only do you not accept other people's opinions, you also do a horrible job trying to convince them you're right. This is where I stop. Maybe you'll learn better in the future...

...What?

1+1=3. That's my opinion and opinions can't be wrong!!!1

The force of gravity is also dependent on the color of the object in question. That's also my opinion and it can't be wrong.

Seriously. Just to get a basic scope of why calling this a matter of opinion is wrong, just experiment-is brawl on Temple only more or less competitive than brawl on FD only? It is not a matter of opinion, any more than the shape of the earth, the existence of cells, or the form of the graph of f(x)=x^2 is. I don't accept your opinion because competition is not based on opinions, but rather on facts.

Also, did you even read the article I linked?

http://gametheorybootcamp.blogspot.com/2010/12/arguing-against-subjectivity-crafting.html

Seriously. Read that. I linked to it in the above post; maybe you missed it. That's the argumentation that moves "what is the best ruleset" from subjectivity into objectivity, assuming you want the most competitive depth (which can be equated with competitiveness of a game, and is therefore directly quantifiable).

 

[chaosmaster1991]

Oh BPC, you're such a funny guy. Not only do you not accept other people's opinions, you also do a horrible job trying to convince them you're right. This is where I stop. Maybe you'll learn better in the future...

Oh Triple R, you're such a funny guy. Not only do you not realize that opinions aren't everything, you also do a horrible job at supporting your own.

You said the difference to FD's ledge is that it's static, but PS2 gives you so much warning, it might as well be the same as static.

 

[Triple R]

BPC twisting my words again...

You said the difference to FD's ledge is that it's static, but PS2 gives you so much warning, it might as well be the same as static.

static /= "might as well be the same as static"

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

BPC twisting my words again...

Bull****. I'm trying to demonstrate that this is not a matter of opinion. I've provided logical proof that reduces "competitiveness" as a factor down to a quantifiable measure; i.e. something that you can scientifically measure. Read the article. If you are aiming for the most competitive ruleset, it is not a matter of opinion and I have proven this through logical deduction. You wanna poke holes in my theory? Knock yourself out. But don't delude yourself into thinking that it is a matter of opinion. It's not. It's a matter of opinion in the same way that the existence of atoms is. At worst, the part where I twist your words (by implying "opinions can't be wrong"; that's an old habit of mine) is completely unrelated to the actual point.

Also, if you can't figure out a transformation that warns you for 7 seconds before it appears, you may be mentally ********; either way you probably shouldn't be playing competitive smash.



Seriously, try me. Put an argument forward. I've presented my entire argumentation; one that simply has not been countered yet, and which clearly and logically points to competitive not only not being a matter of opinion, but PS2 also fitting into "competitive" as clearly as Battlefield and Smashville do.