Pokémon Black and White (WARNING: SPOILERS)

[FAILchion-]

So... it's generally agreed that Smugleaf and Baycon (or whatever you guys want to call him) are gonna be the most used, while Wotter gets nothing? :x

 

[Majority]

Wotter is a disgrace to Water types.

 

[Clownbot]

Really? I've seen more hate on Pokabu than Mijumaru in here, which is a real shame to me.

EDIT: Or at the very least I've seen Mijumaru get more praise

 

[Javon89]

I'd laugh if Ash were eating Pokabu for breakfast?

 

[FAILchion-]

Wotter is a disgrace to Water types.

My face @ Smugleaf and Baycon:

My face @ Wotter:

 

[Riddle]

Other than it being the first, I fail to see how you could make that call. You have a pokemon called CATERPIE, Wigglytuff is easily one of the blandest, more boring evolutions ever MAKE THE BALL OVAL, ADD A CIRCLE IN THE MIDDLE!, bug pokemon were horribly redumentry, compared to Foretress, and the designs are all based on easily identifiable creatures to a greater extent than that of say 3rd gen (Metagross, Absol, etc).

1st gen is the 2nd most broken metagame, and its only redeeming feature is that its the most offensive OU available. The mechanics are horrible (freezing equals death?!?!?!), and its just all around not worth it.

Sorry, but you're just looking to validate it.

Yeah there are some duds in R/B/Y but thats true for every pokemon game. Alakazam, Poliwrath, Tangela and Porygon come to mind for unidentifiable pokemon. Haunter is easily my favorite design for a pokemon ever. Stop straw manning me.

In what way is R/B/Y OU 'broken'? Have you even ever played it? Sure, its centralized but remember D/P OU? There were like 5 pokemon with greater than 50% usage. Its a really cool metagame and while its somewhat lacking in teambuilding it more than makes up for it in my mind with the intense strategy required during battles.

Sorry, but you're just wrong.

 

[UberMario]

Psychic is the best in R/B/Y by a lot, that's why Dark was added.

 

[Zook]

Just because some of us like the first gens more doesn't me its because of nostalgia. If Shoddy had RBY I would battle on it as much if not more than ubers. Its just a superior game in my eyes. Plus its more creative.

How so? I don't think I've ever seen anyone say this before.

 

[Mewter]

Imma let you finish but I just wanna say that RBY was the best generation, of ALL TIME.
OF ALL TIME!

Joking aside,
Look at most of first/second gen's Pokemon, then look at 3rd and fourth gen's Pokemon.
You'll find a lot more of the first two generations' Pokemon are more like oridinary creatures you would find in real life, while the ones created for fourth and third gen are more out there.

 

[Firus]

Other than it being the first, I fail to see how you could make that call. You have a pokemon called CATERPIE, Wigglytuff is easily one of the blandest, more boring evolutions ever MAKE THE BALL OVAL, ADD A CIRCLE IN THE MIDDLE!, bug pokemon were horribly redumentry, compared to Foretress, and the designs are all based on easily identifiable creatures to a greater extent than that of say 3rd gen (Metagross, Absol, etc).

1st gen is the 2nd most broken metagame, and its only redeeming feature is that its the most offensive OU available. The mechanics are horrible (freezing equals death?!?!?!), and its just all around not worth it.

Sorry, but you're just looking to validate it.

It's his opinion. You're allowed to disagree with him, but you cannot honestly say that he's "just looking to validate it". No matter what your favorite generation is I can easily find arguments against it, the same is true for every one.

If he thinks it's more creative, that's up to him.

How so? I don't think I've ever seen anyone say this before.

I used to say the same thing until I realized how overwhelmingly creative 3rd gen is.

First gen has a lot of pros, and not just because it's the first.

 

[CRASHiC]

Tangela

You're kidding, right? Tangle is undefinable? Its in the name.

In what way is R/B/Y OU 'broken'? Have you even ever played it? Sure, its centralized but remember D/P OU? There were like 5 pokemon with greater than 50% usage.

Yes, and so what action was made to ramify this? Garchomp was banned. Now Scizor is at 28 percent and everyone thinks THAT'S outrageous. R/B/Y is FAR more centralized.
However, the sheer mechanics of it are broken. No true counter to Psychich types other than Joleton, critical hits being based on speed, freezes, the ****ed up type chart, no such thing as 100 percent accuracy, recovery moves autofail, hypebeam, etc. etc. Its horrible, straight up. Its as broken as the first Blazblue.

 

[Firus]

no such thing as 100 percent accuracy

Uh...what about Swift?

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

^ Speed gave reason to critical hits? Wow...thats...bad. >_>

 

[Riddle]

Just because the game mechanics are glitchy doesn't mean its not a good game. You can give me examples of bad mechanics all you like but its still very fun. And my point was not that over 50% is bad. I think the D/P metagame was MORE fun than the current one is. Centralization adds to Battle strategy because your much less likely to have a team disadvantage.

Critical hits based on speed - how is this even broken? Its just a mechanic.

No true counter to Psychic tpes other than Jolteon - Chansey does pretty well. I could just as easily say this for say....Tyranitar.

Freezes - Again, just a game mechanic. It rarely decides games anyway. And theres enough t-waves floating around that you can just get your chansey paralyzed anyway.

Type-chart - Again this is just a game mechanic....

No such thing as 100% accuracy - Swift (loljk). Though this is still just a game mechanic that has a negligible effect.

Recovery Move Auto-Fail - Yeah this is pretty dumb not gonna lie. Memorize the HP where you cant recover and you should be fine.

Hyper Beam - Just because its different doesn't mean its bad.

Also, Since when is a ball (tangle) of tentacles an 'identifiable creature'

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Just because the game mechanics are glitchy doesn't mean its not a good game. You can give me examples of bad mechanics all you like but its still very fun. And my point was not that over 50% is bad. I think the D/P metagame was MORE fun than the current one is. Centralization adds to Battle strategy because your much less likely to have a team disadvantage.



Critical hits based on speed - how is this even broken? Its just a mechanic.



No true counter to Psychic tpes other than Jolteon - Chansey does pretty well. I could just as easily say this for say....Tyranitar.

Freezes - Again, just a game mechanic. It rarely decides games anyway. And theres enough t-waves floating around that you can just get your chansey paralyzed anyway.

Type-chart - Again this is just a game mechanic....

No such thing as 100% accuracy - Swift (loljk). Though this is still just a game mechanic that has a negligible effect.

Recovery Move Auto-Fail - Yeah this is pretty dumb not gonna lie. Memorize the HP where you cant recover and you should be fine.

Hyper Beam - Just because its different doesn't mean its bad.

Also, Since when is a ball (tangle) of tentacles an 'identifiable creature'

Okay, bad mechanics can still have fun. There are many old games I play, infact I perfer old games. Breath of Fire II is my favorite game (besides FF7 and some others) and it has horrible mechanics. The game is so itembased that at lv30 stat ups mean nothing, and if you have the final armor you need to level no more. There are bad mechanic games that are still fun, this is very, very, true.

However, games without bad mechanics are usually more fun. This is all for yourself to decide, making the whole conversation pointless, though.

Sorry though, I have to say 1st gen was messed up. What was wrong with Hyper Beam, by the way?

 

[Bowser King]

No true counter to Psychic tpes other than Jolteon - Chansey does pretty well. I could just as easily say this for say....Tyranitar.

I didn't start using T-Tar until recently and all my teams had/have a counter for him. You don't need tyranitar to make a team and tyranitar can be taken care of. As far as I'm aware (I don't know much about the 1st gen metagame) making a team without a psychic type automatically made the team close to unusable.

Freezes - Again, just a game mechanic. It rarely decides games anyway. And theres enough t-waves floating around that you can just get your chansey paralyzed anyway.

Type-chart - Again this is just a game mechanic....

No such thing as 100% accuracy - Swift (loljk). Though this is still just a game mechanic that has a negligible effect.

Just because its a game mechanic doesn't mean its bad.

 

[CRASHiC]

entralization adds to Battle strategy because your much less likely to have a team disadvantage.

That's really ****ing dumb. The more valid options, the more depth you have. Please read a bit here. That doesn't add to battle strategy it takes away from the Yomi. Might make **** easier for you, but its by no means good in any way.
http://www.sirlin.net/

Critical hits based on speed - how is this even broken? Its just a mechanic.

It makes raising defense null and void and promotes speedy sweepers to be the only used.

No true counter to Psychic tpes other than Jolteon - Chansey does pretty well. I could just as easily say this for say....Tyranitar.

That's not comparable at all. TTar has several large weaknesses and can be easily exploited. 4times fighting weakness (one of the best offense types in the metagame), weakness to earth quake, weakness to Bullet Punch, weakness to water. Meanwhile, Alakazam is weak to bug. Who gives a ****? Jolteon is the only able user, and chansey suffers from Psyhichs bull-****ty 30 percent chance to lower your Special stat, WHICH BTW, is EVEN MORE BULL ****, as it lowers your attack as well. **** this game.

Freezes - Again, just a game mechanic.

And its a bad ****ing mechanic.

Type-chart - Again this is just a game mechanic....

And another one that is destructive to competitive play.

Hyper Beam - Just because its different doesn't mean its bad.

Except its not "different" its glitched.

Also, Since when is a ball (tangle) of tentacles an 'identifiable creature'

Its clearly vines. Stop watching Henatai.

 

[Mewter]

This is getting heated.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

What did hyper beam used to do that was so horrid? I want to know so bad..... can't remember, I loaded my Red game but it's at the beginning...

 

[Firus]

That's really ****ing dumb. The more valid options, the more depth you have. Please read a bit here. That doesn't add to battle strategy it takes away from the Yomi. Might make **** easier for you, but its by no means good in any way.

You do realize you just said that

What I think = good
What you think = bad

right?

Maybe Riddle likes less depth? That's like saying that playing Pong might be easier than playing Melee, but it's not good and it's dumb for someone to prefer Atari games over Melee.

Its clearly vines. Stop watching Henatai.

Okay seriously, is there any reason for the malicious attacks? It's like the more you go on in this argument (which, might I remind you, is about which generation of Pokémon is the best and the metagames of said generations...just something to keep in mind) the more pissed off you get because he doesn't agree with you. Settle down.

But...it's not clearly vines, it's actually based off of Medusa, I would think.

You don't have to watch Hentai to think it could be made out of tentacles. Stop flaming him already and remember what this debate is about and that he's just expressing his opinion on something and you're yelling at him because you don't think he's come to the conclusion in the correct manner.

Also, might I remind you all that this is a thread about

Pokémon Black & White, not the different generations...so why don't we move back over to that?

I'm pretty happy they're giving so many animations to the Pokémon, because it'll make the battles so much more exciting and active, AND it'll give spriters so much more to work with. This is quite amazing.

 

[UberMario]

What did hyper beam used to do that was so horrid? I want to know so bad..... can't remember, I loaded my Red game but it's at the beginning...

Don't recall very well, it was either it was too powerful or it was so weak that the "post-attack recuperation" made it bad. I don't remember.

 

[Mewter]

Pokémon Black & White, not the different generations...so why don't we move back over to that?

I'm pretty happy they're giving so many animations to the Pokémon, because it'll make the battles so much more exciting and active, AND it'll give spriters so much more to work with. This is quite amazing.

Yeah, it's extremely exciting to see the Pokemon in action, and it will probably be really fun to see the new spriting gifs popping up for Pokemon sprites created by different people.
Just seeing how Nintendo accomplished this though, for over 500 different Pokemon, just blows my mind.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Yeah this did get way off topic, and all I want to know is what hyper beam was in 1st gen.


So I think it's about time they added battle animations, seeing flamethrower come out of Charizard's chest sure is weird. So excited! This is going to be a good generation.I want my Dark/Dragon, I know it's not the best typing, but a Dark/Dragon that looks similar to Serpent Night Dragon (lol) or Vrtra (see FFXI) = amazing.


By the way, I like your avatar Mewter. I just recently beat Generations, <3

 

[Firus]

Just seeing how Nintendo accomplished this though, for over 500 different Pokemon, just blows my mind.

Oh, totally. It's why I wasn't surprised when they hadn't done it before.

 

[CRASHiC]

Difficulty has nothing to do with depth Firus. Pong may actually be a deep game, I don't know, haven't looked into it. In fact, on that site, Sirlin argues that pokemon makes its depth with too many entry barriers oddly enough hahaha.

Reguardless, when looking at the validity of multiplayer games, there ARE things we can weigh and value in a measurable form that leads to its success. A versus game is in its esscence competative, EVEN WITHOUT A METAGAME, EVEN IF ITS JUST TWO 6 YEAR OLDS GOING AGAINST EACH OTHER, all the same still applies. You want all the options to be balanced and you want them to be diverse. The greater the diversity, the greater the balance, the greater the experience for both players. Its fine to have laughable things like Dan or Spindra, but you want the valid options they pick to be able to contend. R/B/Y does not do this. Not only are your options incredibly limited, but the mechanics of that are destructive even further to any sort of balance for the options you chose. So, its balance and its diversity is completely screwed, as well as its depth. It has no desirable feature for a multiplayer game.

Medusa? Way to reach for straws. There's no more reason for that than to believe that Slowbro was eating cake. Its a TANGLE of VINES, thus its a GRASS POKEMON.

What did hyper beam used to do that was so horrid? I want to know so bad..... can't remember, I loaded my Red game but it's at the beginning...

If you kill a pokemon you don't have to get a charge, a glitch that promoted offense to an even greater extent.

 

[Firus]

Difficulty has nothing to do with depth Firus. Pong may actually be a deep game, I don't know, haven't looked into it. In fact, on that site, Sirlin argues that pokemon makes its depth with too many entry barriers oddly enough hahaha.

Pong only has three objects, I'm pretty sure that's less depth than Melee simply by definition.

Reguardless, when looking at the validity of multiplayer games, there ARE things we can weigh and value in a measurable form that leads to its success. A versus game is in its esscence competative, EVEN WITHOUT A METAGAME, EVEN IF ITS JUST TWO 6 YEAR OLDS GOING AGAINST EACH OTHER, all the same still applies. You want all the options to be balanced and you want them to be diverse. The greater the diversity, the greater the balance, the greater the experience for both players. Its fine to have laughable things like Dan or Spindra, but you want the valid options they pick to be able to contend. R/B/Y does not do this. Not only are your options incredibly limited, but the mechanics of that are destructive even further to any sort of balance for the options you chose. So, its balance and its diversity is completely screwed, as well as its depth. It has no desirable feature for a multiplayer game.

People still play standard Brawl with no hacks over Melee, enough said.

Medusa? Way to reach for straws. There's no more reason for that than to believe that Slowbro was eating cake. Its a TANGLE of VINES, thus its a GRASS POKEMON.

The ironic thing is I actually didn't think of that myself, even.

From Bulbapedia:

Tangela's original name was "Meduza," a misspelling of "Medusa" (a Greek mythological character).

 

[wowoduend]

*grabs popcorn*

 

[CRASHiC]

Pong only has three objects, I'm pretty sure that's less depth than Melee simply by definition.

Rock Paper Scizor has a a **** ton of depth believe it or not, but only has 3 objects.

People still play Smash over any other fighting game, enough said.

Fixed for you. Both suck as competitive fields. Melee might be more technical, but that doesn't mean **** when most of its technical difficult don't add to the depth.

The ironic thing is I actually didn't think of that myself, even.:

That's only its name. Pokemon names have referenced slightly related things all the time, does not mean its based on them. Is Swalot based on a mouth? No. Is Jynx a witch? No. Jynx is this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganguro

 

[Spire]

CRASHiC, you need to calm down.

EDIT: for the record, Rock, Paper, Scissors has no depth. It's literally "pick one and hope you win". Magic Pengel was a PS2 game that took the concept of RPS and gave it depth.

 

[Riddle]

I think we just simply disagree on what makes a desirable metagame. You dislike fast centralized metagames and I think they are quite fun.

And just because something has more Yomi (I have read playing to win) doesn't make it necessarily better. My point in this case is that you are much less likely to go into a battle with a team disadvantage which in my mind is a good thing because it places more emphasis on player skill than teambuilding.

I'm actually wondering if you've ever played R/B/Y OU on netbattle?

 

[CRASHiC]

My point in this case is that you are much less likely to go into a battle with a team disadvantage which in my mind is a good thing because it places more emphasis on player skill than teambuilding.

Except, it does emphasis team building, because you are required to pick certain particular pokemon. The more balanced the metagame, the more likely you are to be able to make a good team with no prior knowledge of the metagame and no experience. So, R/B/Y actually emphasizes team building more because its such a large entry barrier.

Beyound there, in developing a well made team once a ton of options are aviable to you, that IS being the better player and is the BASIS of pokemon.

 

[Firus]

Rock Paper Scizor

I want to play this game.

In all seriousness, though, another thing which I think deserves more discussion: Hiun City.

It looks to be, by far, the largest city ever to enter in a Pokémon game. Its alleyways and marketplace remind me of Castle Town in Twilight Princess, with multiple places of attraction, whereas cities like Jubilife, Goldenrod, and Saffron have all of 4 attractions and you just take one path and spend very little time in the city. And with all of the attention it's getting, I wonder if it might become some sort of central hub for the game? That would be pretty awesome.

 

[Riddle]

You're saying that a metagame that has like...10 viable pokemon emphasizes teambuilding? I'm talking about players that actually know the metagame.

 

[CRASHiC]

The large city and the boats are only making me think of this game as "Paper Pokemon: The Thousand Year Door"

Or, if its Tekkon Kinkreet inspired, that would be awesome too. Have the "Cats" run around fighting the adults, you being the intermediate between them.

You're saying that a metagame that has like...10 viable pokemon emphasizes teambuilding? I'm talking about players that actually know the metagame.

It still exist as a large entry barrier, thus making team building a important part of the game.

EDIT: for the record, Rock, Paper, Scissors has no depth. It's literally "pick one and hope you win". Magic Pengel was a PS2 game that took the concept of RPS and gave it depth.

Not true, its based on reading habbits from your opponent, and temping and lureing him into a particular Rock, Paper, or Scizor. Its all about prediction and bait and lure, skills that are highly reguarded within the fighting community, and the fighting game community.

 

[Riddle]

All it takes is to lurk some to realize that teams are essentially:

Sleep Lead (Jynx/Exeggutor/Gengar)/Chansey/Starmie/Tauros/(Rhydon/Golem)/Filler (Snorlax, Zapdos, Jolteon, and Alakazam are possibilities)

 

[majora_787]

seeing flamethrower come out of Charizard's chest sure is weird.

How about Houndoom's eyes? Yeah. Exactly.

The sprites are just amazing, and actually they're doing it for 600+ pokemon, not 500+.

But yeah, the city is just awesome. Does sort of remind me of paper mario, but it was a good game. As long as they don't make it look choppy and whatnot, I'm sure it'll be new and interesting.

 

[UberMario]

I think this is the first time I've seen a Pokemon game where a busy city actually looked crowded.

 

[PowerBomb]

Hopefully more than 20+ buildings with like 15 NPCs saying stupid stuff or just standing there/slightly walking around.

 

[Fuelbi]

Or at least where the skyscrapers actually look huge

*looks at saffron city*

 

[flyinfilipino]

What if all the cities in Isshu are as big as Hiun City? *drools*