Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[NES n00b]

I'm talking about a conventional landing animation. Yes theres AN animation, but you have to admit, its a very strange one, with the character sliding forward in a crouching position and then clicking back into a standing position, without lag.

What? Ok. The landing animation is the one of an airdodge and up b animation landing animation. By your past logic, up b and landing animation sharing the same animation would mean that one of those two landings had to be glitch because the up b and airdodging just happen to share the same landing animation. Also, certain parts of character movesets would also be glitches due to clones' shared animations for some/most moves.

To the quoted portion, subjective/arbitrary values like "strange" and "looks like a glitch" doesn't mean it is. I could say that teching against a wall when recovering is a glitch. Isn't it "strange" that you can tech something when you are hit and are supposed to go the other way but you brace the wall like you got hit that way? Not only that, you have very little lag no matter how much force you are hit with or how high you percentage is. How can you tech something that is supposed to hit you the other way and immediately do something out of it with no lag? I declare teching after you get hit in a direction other than the wall you are teching and doing a move immediately after a tech a glitch.

Edit: Talkath's analogy is perfect. Forgot to mention that.

 

[RDK]

Wow, Smooth. Weak.

JK, JK.

Ok, so you can't get good from online tutorials and videos? You can't get good by yourself? See below.

Not really. Or at least it's not very effective. What good are techniques when they haven't been tested to any great extent on other competitive players? That's like practicing for a large play production, but never performing in front of a real audience.

 

[M.K]

Wow, Smooth. Weak.

JK, JK.



Not really. Or at least it's not very effective. What good are techniques when they haven't been tested to any great extent on other competitive players? That's like practicing for a large play production, but never performing in front of a real audience.

I see your point, but why do you need an audience to practice in front of? When you actually MAKE it to a tournament, you will be FINE against the other players. There are MANY Youtube Vids of Pros practicing. It really isn't that hard to pick up someone's style of play.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wow, Smooth. Weak.

JK, JK.

*GRABS BASEBALL BAT AND STALKS OFF TOWARDS RDK.*

Not really. Or at least it's not very effective. What good are techniques when they haven't been tested to any great extent on other competitive players? That's like practicing for a large play production, but never performing in front of a real audience.

QFT.

And I think this is the same point that Buzz was trying to make, Meta-Kirby. Sure, people may come to SOME of these gigantic tourneys but by no means is it even a quarter of the competitive population who MAY share distinct traits or mindgames that separate them from the rest of the pack.

Edit:

I see your point, but why do you need an audience to practice in front of? When you actually MAKE it to a tournament, you will be FINE against the other players. There are MANY Youtube Vids of Pros practicing. It really isn't that hard to pick up someone's style of play.

I don't think you got the analogy, man.

Smooth Criminal

 

[RDK]

I see your point, but why do you need an audience to practice in front of? When you actually MAKE it to a tournament, you will be FINE against the other players. There are MANY Youtube Vids of Pros practicing. It really isn't that hard to pick up someone's style of play.

Yeah, but you're not taking into account that you're opponents will have more experience than you. They'll know how some characters are used, at least in higher levels of play.

And it seems like you're banking on the fact that the person you're facing won't adapt to YOUR playing style. It's not one-sided like that. If he's a good, experienced tourney-goer, he'll most likely know how to handle strategies that a non-tourney-goer would likely throw at him.

 

[MookieRah]

LOL, watching videos does not equate to experiencing the match there Meta. Just cause you can learn from them that doesn't mean you have actually incorporated that knowledge. The difference between knowledge on skill and in game skill is that for you to be truly skilled in game it all has to be a knee jerk reaction without much thought. You can learn a lot from vids, but they are not anywhere near being a substitute for playing people.

 

[M.K]

LOL, watching videos does not equate to experiencing the match there Meta. Just cause you can learn from them that doesn't mean you have actually incorporated that knowledge. The difference between knowledge on skill and in game skill is that for you to be truly skilled in game it all has to be a knee jerk reaction without much thought. You can learn a lot from vids, but they are not anywhere near being a substitute for playing people.

Very true, the more I think about it, the more I began to think about it, the more I realized my point was invalid.

Still:

IN TERMS OF SUPERIORITY
CASUALS > COMPETITIVE WRONG
CASUALS < COMPETITIVE WRONG
CASUALS = COMPETITIVE WRONG
THEY AREN'T EVEN ON THE SAME LINE!
It isn't comparing apple and apple
It isn't comparing an apple and pear
It's comparing an apple to a highly skilled sea tortoise whose dancing skills led him to date Angelina Jolie for 10 days.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Yeah, I'd have to agree with MookieRah on this one.
I mean, when I went to my first "official rules" tourney last month, the next day I could shffl and wavedash O.O While before that I spent two weeks practicing and couldn't

I also learned this by reading about it and watching it in video's, then trying to do it.
It didn't work, then I faced players above my skill and after getting my behind handed to me, it did work!

It's true, tournament experience is necessary in order to develop fast (not to just develop, but to develop FAST)

 

[PaperLink]

Ok, I'm agreeing with the no-items part of this. It's easy to see why you wouldn't want items in a big stake tourney.

Whether wavedashing is a glitch is debateable(IMO it isn't), we won't have to worry about it for long. Food for thought though - If it's not something that wasn't intended, why take it out in brawl?

Also, someone might wanna consider closing this thread, it's getting kinda off-topic IMO. Should we get off wavedashing (which is what this thread is becoming and argument over), then maybe put back up. Maybe lock it???


EDIT: THERE, I TOOK IT OUT. IT'S NOT CHEAP. SORRY FOR POSTING MY OPINION.

 

[RDK]

I hate it when people call techniques that are available to EVERYONE cheap.

 

[PaperLink]

I know, but, you know, that's my opinion. That's all it is.

 

[MookieRah]

IMO it isn't, just kinda cheap

How the hell is it cheap???? Sorry, I don't wish to derail the thread with this, but how the hell is it cheap?? Seriously, it isn't cheap at all. It takes skill to use and isn't even close to game breaking. Everyone I've ever heard complaining about wave dashing being cheap were people who didn't know how to do it, and thusly didn't realize what it can and can't do, and how it helps and could *potentially* hurt you in some situations.

Actually the second part of that paragraph could be applied to pretty much everything that the casual community debates about with the competitive. If casual players spent as much time trying to understand what we do and get to know it as much as they spend harassing us on the internet they probably wouldn't have much of a beef with it in the first place.

If you guys want to know why any competitive player would look down on the casual community there it is. You guys complain to us about things you honestly haven't tried to understand and will often vehemently oppose trying to learn about it or simply accept the knowledge of people who do know about it.

I'd like to point out that while I said this entirely to casuals, I don't mean it universally. I know all casuals aren't ignorant, and in fact I know a lot of smart, intelligent and all around awesome casual people on this board, but it's much easier to type this at the end than to tip toe my entire post.

 

[PaperLink]

if i knew that little part would have derailed this topic even more i wouldn't have said it.

 

[M.K]

It's not a glitch, it's not cheap, it's just an exploitation of the air dodge. <--This isn't a positive OR negative statement, it is neutral statement.

 

[Xanderous]

L2WD then tell me it's cheap.

 

[RDK]

L2WD then tell me it's cheap.

Learn to wavedash, I'm guessing? Not sure who you were referring to there.

if i knew that little part would have derailed this topic even more i wouldn't have said it.

There's no problem with you stating your opinion. It's just that I have a hard time understanding why you think it's cheap.

 

[5150]

wait.........its the year 2007 (almost 2008) and we are STILL talking about wd being "cheap"? mookie, jsut stop responding to these people. they will NEVER listen to what we say no matter HOW strong our arguement is. you are smarter than that.

 

[Xanderous]

Not directed toward anyone; I was just looking for an excuse to type "L2WD."

 

[Banana_Dragon]

I thought we finally got rid of the wavedash argument yet again... Seems not so...

How about we get back on topic?
Does anyone believe a casual player "can" develop skills good enough to be considered as good as competetives at the game?

I personally think that while very hard, it is possible. If said person is dedicated to train, and varies his approaches against lvl 1 coputers every time and teaches his friends to become better, so they can surpass him, then they teach him again to become better and so forth... I think casuals can indeed achieve the level of competetives. (Then again, by doing this they probably create their own competition)

 

[RDK]

Not directed toward anyone; I was just looking for an excuse to type "L2WD."

^ Lol.

And yeah, it seems kind of weird that all these years after wavedashing and the like were discovered, there are still those out there who call it "cheap". Then again, you have to remember that most everyone went through the n00b phase sometime in their gaming lifetime, so you can't get too mad at people for voicing their opinions when they don't really know what they're talking about.

 

[PaperLink]

^ Lol.

And yeah, it seems kind of weird that all these years after wavedashing and the like were discovered, there are still those out there who call it "cheap". Then again, you have to remember that most everyone went through the n00b phase sometime in their gaming lifetime, so you can't get too mad at people for voicing their opinions when they don't really know what they're talking about.

wow. Back-handed comment FTW. Ouch.

There's no problem with you stating your opinion. It's just that I have a hard time understanding why you think it's cheap.

Yeah, but when 3 or 4 people bit your head off for doing it, it gets old quick. Anyway, can we just get back on topic?

 

[Banana_Dragon]

@PaperLink: glad you're with me... if someone needs a suggestion/idea of how to get back on topic, feel free to use my last post. Feel free to flame me even, I don't care, but I'm tired of the wavedash discussion.

 

[5150]

I thought we finally got rid of the wavedash argument yet again... Seems not so...

How about we get back on topic?
Does anyone believe a casual player "can" develop skills good enough to be considered as good as competetives at the game?

I personally think that while very hard, it is possible. If said person is dedicated to train, and varies his approaches against lvl 1 coputers every time and teaches his friends to become better, so they can surpass him, then they teach him again to become better and so forth... I think casuals can indeed achieve the level of competetives. (Then again, by doing this they probably create their own competition)

no they can't. end of discussion. you'd understand if you went to a tournament.

 

[user_name]

What? Ok. The landing animation is the one of an airdodge and up b animation landing animation. By your past logic, up b and landing animation sharing the same animation would mean that one of those two landings had to be glitch because the up b and airdodging just happen to share the same landing animation. Also, certain parts of character movesets would also be glitches due to clones' shared animations for some/most moves.

To the quoted portion, subjective/arbitrary values like "strange" and "looks like a glitch" doesn't mean it is. I could say that teching against a wall when recovering is a glitch. Isn't it "strange" that you can tech something when you are hit and are supposed to go the other way but you brace the wall like you got hit that way? Not only that, you have very little lag no matter how much force you are hit with or how high you percentage is. How can you tech something that is supposed to hit you the other way and immediately do something out of it with no lag? I declare teching after you get hit in a direction other than the wall you are teching and doing a move immediately after a tech a glitch.

Edit: Talkath's analogy is perfect. Forgot to mention that.

Yes, you could argue that teching is a glitch.

But fine, lets assume that WDing is not a glitch. Now define what a glitch is, and how it's set apart from WDing. How is the black hole glitch different from WDing? Because it's not tourny legal? Who said the word 'glitch' has to have a negative cogitation?

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, but when 3 or 4 people bit your head off for doing it, it gets old quick.

People basing opinions off of ignorance was old from the day it started. I'm not trying to make the poor guy look bad, but I think it's really really dumb when people don't know anything about a subject but "voice" their opinions. Especially when they, or others, take offense when people criticize to them speaking out of ignorance. Not only that, by posting he thought wave dashing was cheap he brought absolutely NOTHING to this discussion.

So why does this matter? Because THIS is the subject at hand. This entire situation came about through pretty much this basis. Someone decides that something competitive is cheap or that it is lame, then decides to spread that information and voice their concern instead of actually learning it (or simply ignoring it). When confronted about it, they get offended by someone debating their opinion, as if their opinion is some kind of sacred thing that is infallible and should not be questioned.

Also, just in case you are offended by me claiming he or others are ignorant, I only mean in terms of smash.

Yes, you could argue that teching is a glitch.

Holy jesus... you are an idiot. Teching was put into the game intentionally. How the hell is something intentional a glitch?

Also, you obviously missed my post that had a concrete guideline for defining what is and isn't a glitch. According to wikipedia, wave dashing is not a glitch.

 

[flyinfilipino]

no they can't. end of discussion. you'd understand if you went to a tournament.

Care to elaborate some more?

 

[Banana_Dragon]

@5150: They probably can't indeed, but I needed something to get this thing back on topic. What better than devil's advocate?

Although it seems any and all approach to get this thing back on track is "phailing epicly."
Yeah... I'm outta here, I think all has been said.

EDIT: Nope, staying! flyingfilipino just made my day for the second time by actually discussing about the topic! You rock dude!

 

[Uchiharakiri]

If you've only been to one tournament, then it's a pretty good bet that you're incredibly inexperienced. Sure if you're smarter than other players you'll have some tricks up your sleeve, but people with more experience against competitive and advanced players have the much better chance of winning against casual players.

And other players slipping up doesn't mean that you're better at the game than them; neither does it mean that you're equally as good. If an experienced player slips up and self destructs for all four of his stocks, making the victor the inexperienced player, then that was simply a fluke.

Some would call it a fluke, I would call it the inexperienced player being better than the experienced player in not slipping up, a factor which also decides the victors in matches.

 

[5150]

Care to elaborate some more?

go to a tournament. that's all i can say. experience can't be taught.

 

[flyinfilipino]

go to a tournament. that's all i can say. experience can't be taught.

Been to one. You really can't just say "end of discussion" and expect it to end.

Yeah, this topic is epic fail. Where's the Hypnotist to respond to this big mess?

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Well 5150... Okay, you won there... Experience indeed can't be taught... Should've seen that one

Uchi: Yeah, this time I "do" agree with you. Not slipping up and staying focussed is part of skill too.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

no they can't. end of discussion. you'd understand if you went to a tournament.

And wheres the proof to the contrary, there being no tournament winners who play without wavedashing is not an indicator that it is not possible, you simply can't say it is, you'll just come off as just, I don't know what the word is...

 

[RDK]

Lol, this thread just got Mookie-punched.

I don't see why each faction just sticks to their own business. The only time we get real problems is when one side tries to impose their rules on the other side. And, whether you like it or not, it's more often than not the casual side that starts it.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

@ Uchi: Eh... Aniki has, if I recall correctly, beaten Ken without wavedashing... So eh... your arguments isn't really stable there, just thought I'd point that out.

EDIT: Yeah I know he l-cancels, it's pretty much mandatory in order to be a Link pro I think (then again it's pretty much mandatory in order to be a pro with any character)

 

[5150]

Been to one. You really can't just say "end of discussion" and expect it to end.

Yeah, this topic is epic fail. Where's the Hypnotist to respond to this big mess?

then you should know better, if it was a REAL tournament, not some game store handing out sweat shirts to the winners.

And wheres the proof to the contrary, there being no tournament winners who play without wavedashing is not an indicator that it is not possible, you simply can't say it is, you'll just come off as just, I don't know what the word is...

if all tournaments are won by people who wd (or use advanced techs in general) and there is not one single person who does not use advanced techs who has won a significant tournament after 6 or so years then it's safe to assume there will never be someone who waltzes up and does upb spam with link and win a decent tournament. believing otherwise is the definition of faith. sry but i dont make arguements based on faith.

EDIT: aniki sure as hell l-cancels, though.

 

[MookieRah]

It's so painfully obvious that one cannot expect to be good by playing only level one computers though. If you are arguing this incredibly implausible (I'm going to say it is distinctly an impossibility) hypothetical, then you don't have much ground. I've known A LOT of people who are competitive, but have no competition and there are very few tournaments in their area. They aren't that good, and it's sad, cause a lot of them have a ton of potential. That's just how it goes, and that is why Brawl's online play is exciting, cause while it may not be as good as playing someone next to you, it's still good for learning/training.

 

[flyinfilipino]

then you should know better, if it was a REAL tournament, not some game store handing out sweat shirts to the winners.

if all tournaments are won by people who wd (or use advanced techs in general) and there is not one single person who does not use advanced techs who has won a significant tournament after 6 or so years then it's safe to assume there will never be someone who waltzes up and does upb spam with link and win a decent tournament. believing otherwise is the definition of faith. sry but i dont make arguements based on faith.

EDIT: aniki sure as hell l-cancels, though.

Know better than what? It looked like you weren't responding to any of my posts specifically, but if I'm wrong, can you explain?

Also, not all 'casual' players are like that, you should know better.

 

[tddavis]

go to a tournament. that's all i can say. experience can't be taught.

that makes no sense, Everyone gets the experience from learning and analyzing. This goes with anything that has ever been done in life, just like you don't need school to become educated. Its just easier and a lot faster if you seek out teachers. Someone with passion can do anything they set their mind to. Not saying going to tournaments won't teach you how to become good faster, but I believe you can get really good from playing with a smash group that are always trying to improve each other it might just take longer.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

@ MookieRah: Yeah, computers never change or learn tactics... In the end you end up expecting the same and always reacting to only that and it's hard to force yourself into other situations where you have to react differently, not to say impossible.

Belgium truly sucks... lol, I should move to the Netherlands or something

But yeah, I hope online play will help me with this, I mean, I "have" to go to other countries to play in tournaments simply because there aren't any in mine O.o (I do that though, I don't mind, but it get's expensive real quick)

EDIT: @ The above post: Yeah... passion, dedication, a lot of it depends on that. It's needed in order to even progress at all. But knowing pro smashers and playing against them does help (not that I know pro's, but pro-ams )

 

[KevinM]

Reading this makes me die a little inside..

5150 and Mookierah, i love you guys keep trying to do what you do.