Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[Xanderous]

Apparently a glitch is now something that not everyone knows about.

I wish someone had told me we'd updated the definition.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

then you should know better, if it was a REAL tournament, not some game store handing out sweat shirts to the winners.



if all tournaments are won by people who wd (or use advanced techs in general) and there is not one single person who does not use advanced techs who has won a significant tournament after 6 or so years then it's safe to assume there will never be someone who waltzes up and does upb spam with link and win a decent tournament. believing otherwise is the definition of faith. sry but i dont make arguements based on faith.

EDIT: aniki sure as hell l-cancels, though.

Well there we have it, I l-cancel and short hop too and all the others, and I still consider myself a semi-casual player seeing as I don't go to any tournaments, well, I guess I'm not really "casual" then huh. Admittedly though, I must say I wouldn't dare enter a tournament without my short hop skills, I do love them so. Regardless, I still say some tournaments and fights can be won without what I see to be the wave dash glitch, as proven by Aniki vs. Ken. And let me stress this to you all once more. I. see. nothing. wrong. with. wave. dashing. I think it's a-okay to use and people who can't or refuse to do it out of laziness(like me) should not whine about it and vice versa. So long as a tourney goers does not think less of a casual player for choosing to play the way they do, then they can say they are more skilled all they want; harmony for all.

 

[5150]

Know better than what? It looked like you weren't responding to any of my posts specifically, but if I'm wrong, can you explain?

Also, not all 'casual' players are like that, you should know better.

i have no idea how to explain other than GO TO A TOURNAMENT.

in casual play link upb = broken. proof: hochiminhtrail used to be an upb spamming link.

that makes no sense, Everyone gets the experience from learning and analyzing. This goes with anything that has ever been done in life, just like you don't need school to become educated. Its just easier and a lot faster if you seek out teachers. Someone with passion can do anything they set their mind to. Not saying going to tournaments won't teach you how to become good faster, but I believe you can get really good from playing with a smash group that are always trying to improve each other it might just take longer.

ur analogy is awful. when people learn things in rl w/o schools they STILL use other resources, just not teachers. no person in the history of mankind has derived everything themselves, only bits and pieces.

trying to learn from lvl1's, or friends who dont use advanced techs, AND not using advanced techs is like trying to learn evolution with a textbook that teaches creationism.

 

[flyinfilipino]

i have no idea how to explain other than GO TO A TOURNAMENT.

in casual play link upb = broken. proof: hochiminhtrail used to be an upb spamming link.

.

Well I'm glad we could talk about that.

 

[RDK]

that makes no sense, Everyone gets the experience from learning and analyzing. This goes with anything that has ever been done in life, just like you don't need school to become educated. Its just easier and a lot faster if you seek out teachers. Someone with passion can do anything they set their mind to. Not saying going to tournaments won't teach you how to become good faster, but I believe you can get really good from playing with a smash group that are always trying to improve each other it might just take longer.

We're not stressing tournaments as much as we're stressing playing with other good, competetive Smashers. If you have no one to use your techniques against, then said techniques won't do you much good when you do end up playing against other competitives.

But, when all is said and done, tournaments are the best way to gain experience and hone skills. That's what tournaments are for (besides making the horribly flawed tier lists X_X). Facing other Smashers is what helps you develop skills for the long run.

So, basically, coming in contact with a social circle of competitive players is hell of a lot better than stagnating in an environment in which level one computer players are the only ones you have to bounce strategies off of.

 

[KevinM]

trying to learn from lvl1's, or friends who dont use advanced techs, AND not using advanced techs is like trying to learn evolution with a textbook that teaches creationism.

LOL SIGGED

 

[tddavis]

i have no idea how to explain other than GO TO A TOURNAMENT.

in casual play link upb = broken. proof: hochiminhtrail used to be an upb spamming link.



ur analogy is awful. when people learn things in rl w/o schools they STILL use other resources, just not teachers. no person in the history of mankind has derived everything themselves, only bits and pieces.

trying to learn from lvl1's, or friends who dont use advanced techs, AND not using advanced techs is like trying to learn evolution with a textbook that teaches creationism.

of course you would use outside resources, but then I wouldn't have to go to a tournament would I? I can read these boards analyze all the trick, my smash group loves learning new things. If they don't want to learn AT they aren't trying to get good just screwing around for fun.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Hmm... Suppose this then:

Friend A learns about wavedashing and l-cancelling, and starts practicing them in training mode until he get's them down. Friend B comes over, and Friend A is excited, so he teaches B to do the same.
A starts applying it in battle, but B notices it's not really helping A any. B looks for uses for it.
B is thinking and sees that by dashing at an opponent, then wavedashing back while you expect the opponent to attack and then coming in with an attack of himself while the other has lag, is effective. He tells this strategy to A. A develops new strategy, shares with B and so forth and so forth...

Wouldn't they then be able to develop a high skill level? I can see one flaw in my own example though and that is that they probably will both end up only being used to playing against each other and good at beating/countering each other... I have no idea how much of an impact this would have when they play against someone entirely different seeing as to how I am, indeed, not experienced enough.

 

[MookieRah]

Well I'm glad we could talk about that.

You could have just read my post which addressed your question.

of course you would use outside resources, but then I wouldn't have to go to a tournament would I? I can read these boards analyze all the trick, my smash group loves learning new things. If they don't want to learn AT they aren't trying to get good just screwing around for fun.

Well the thing is the simple fact that regardless of all your friends and their abilities they could not possibly encompass the variety of skill, techniques, and play styles that one would find at one decent sized tournament. That's not to say there isn't a lot to learn from your friends, but you definitely won't be the best from that kind of environment alone.

 

[NES n00b]

Yes, you could argue that teching is a glitch.

But fine, lets assume that WDing is not a glitch. Now define what a glitch is, and how it's set apart from WDing. How is the black hole glitch different from WDing? Because it's not tourny legal? Who said the word 'glitch' has to have a negative cogitation?

Glitch happens outside the parameters of the game. Blackhole glitch breaks the rules of the code that the programmers' wrote. One rule is that things have to fall in the game eventually due to gravity while the black hole has turnips that move around forever. Random things happen when messing with the blackhole. Wavedash on the other hand uses three normal things: a jump, an airdodge towards the ground, and the sliding from said airdodge. If sliding was intentional, then wavedashing is not a glitch, but an exploit.

I don't think glitch is a bad word in terms of using them, because I would think that jcs of all kinds are glitches (I would think because only upsmash and grabs can only be jced, but I don't really know. Sakurai could have made it so only those two could be jced and immediately out of sheild use. XD) Teching cannot be in any stretch of the imagination a glitch. Teching against a wall while recovering is just exploiting the fact that the only requirement to tech is to press L or R when next to a wall. Teching doesn't care what direction you would have gone nor does it care about how much force was used before you tech.

I will explain for 5150. Imagine if all you did to pratice for pro tennis was watch pro vids, pratice all the techs like spinning and stuff, exercise for peak physical condition, and play your friends in tennis. When you got to the tourney, you would be beat pretty bad for many reasons. 1. Your friends really didn't push you as hard as going to tournies would have especially if they are worse than you. 2. You don't know how to react to different strategies since you would be playing like you would your friends. 3. You couldn't handle the pressure of going to a tourney. 4. Maybe others I missed.

 

[PaperLink]

k well i guess I can't expect to have anything I say here be valid anymore, so i guess Ill move on...

 

[tddavis]

We're not stressing tournaments as much as we're stressing playing with other good, competetive Smashers. If you have no one to use your techniques against, then said techniques won't do you much good when you do end up playing against other competitives.

But, when all is said and done, tournaments are the best way to gain experience and hone skills. That's what tournaments are for (besides making the horribly flawed tier lists X_X). Facing other Smashers is what helps you develop skills for the long run.

So, basically, coming in contact with a social circle of competitive players is hell of a lot better than stagnating in an environment in which level one computer players are the only ones you have to bounce strategies off of.

agreed. I am not saying going to a tourney isn't going make you better faster, that the most saturation of good players you will find.

 

[5150]

of course you would use outside resources, but then I wouldn't have to go to a tournament would I? I can read these boards analyze all the trick, my smash group loves learning new things. If they don't want to learn AT they aren't trying to get good just screwing around for fun.

so you're saying you can build a rocket by memorizing equations? no. you have to go out and build a ****ing rocket and implement your knowledge. and guess what? it's probably not going to work and you're going to make mistakes then you make adjustments. it may take you 2 tries it may take you 100. nothing is textbook in life and that includes videogames. if you think life is textbook you need to grow up or go outside in the real world.

 

[RDK]

so you're saying you can build a rocket by memorizing equations? no. you have to go out and build a ****ing rocket

Man, you're on a roll today. That makes, what--at least 3 siggable phrases by you in just the last half hour? XD

 

[flyinfilipino]

You could have just read my post which addressed your question.

Sorry, must've missed yours/didn't know you were responding to me. ...which I don't think you were; I didn't bring up the level 1 computers?

 

[5150]

Man, you're on a roll today. That makes, what--at least 3 siggable phrases by you in just the last half hour? XD

wanna know how i do it? bulletball. google it.

DA 4 lyeif

 

[tddavis]

so you're saying you can build a rocket by memorizing equations? no. you have to go out and build a ****ing rocket and implement your knowledge. and guess what? it's probably not going to work and you're going to make mistakes then you make adjustments. it may take you 2 tries it may take you 100. nothing is textbook in life and that includes videogames. if you think life is textbook you need to grow up or go outside in the real world.

I am in the real world I applied this same exact concept to becoming a 3d Character artist, teaching myself from every book, video, and tutorial imaginable. I am a self taught 3d artist and it is rare I find anyone coming out of college better at 3d art then me because I have been doing it a lot longer then all of them, hell most of the vets think I am pretty amazing. Experience is just time commitment to the subject

 

[The Hypnotist]

Point of order!

When people are saying "competitive > casual" you can't take it so literally. It just means competitive players are (significantly) better in the game and will (virtually) always beat casual players. Period. And we're not saying playing with items or on Flat Zone is stupid. We are just saying it's the wrong way to play if you are trying to determine which player has the most skill.

 

[RDK]

We are just saying it's the wrong way to play if you are trying to determine which player has the most skill.

Yay for logic!

 

[NES n00b]

I am in the real world I applied this same exact concept to becoming a 3d Character artist, teaching myself from every book, video, and tutorial imaginable. I am a self taught 3d artist and it is rare I find anyone coming out of college better at 3d art then me because I have been doing it a lot longer then all of them.

Did you just read textbooks or did you actually create 3d art? Of course you practiced actually making 3d art by doing it yourself.

How do you learn to play smash well in tournies? You go to tournies for practice

 

[flyinfilipino]

Point of order!

When people are saying "competitive > casual" you can't take it so literally. It just means competitive players are (significantly) better in the game and will (virtually) always beat casual players. Period. And we're not saying playing with items or on Flat Zone is stupid. We are just saying it's the wrong way to play if you are trying to determine which player has the most skill.

Alright, then the only point I wanted to make in this thread complies with that, it's that being a 'competitive' player does not mean that you will automatically win against a 'casual' player. Or something like that, I don't even remember anymore.

End point of order?

 

[KevinM]

wanna know how i do it? bulletball. google it.

DA 4 lyeif

YOU CAN'T GOOGLE DIS ****!

 

[5150]

I am in the real world I applied this same exact concept to becoming a 3d Character artist, teaching myself from every book, video, and tutorial imaginable. I am a self taught 3d artist and it is rare I find anyone coming out of college better at 3d art then me because I have been doing it a lot longer then all of them. Experience is just time commitment to the subject.

question:

did you read ALL of the material and then try to implement it, or did you learn it step by step and try each new idea out?

question:

in 3d art do you have to play against a human opponent?


and experience is not just time commitment. if that was true then everyone at, say 40, would be equally wise, and taht SURE AS HELL isn't true.

 

[MookieRah]

k well i guess I can't expect to have anything I say here be valid anymore, so i guess Ill move on...

I'm just saying to put some more thought behind your opinions as opposed to going by how wavedash makes you feel. Being truthy is lame, unless you are Stephen Colbert.

Sorry, must've missed yours/didn't know you were responding to me. ...which I don't think you were; I didn't bring up the level 1 computers?

You didn't bring up the level 1 computers, but you told 5150 to elaborate on it as opposed to saying "go to a tournament" in which case I explained why someone without access to good competition and tournaments who does practice with computers aren't that great. I don't know what else you want, asside from me telling you what goes on at tournaments, and all I can really say to that is:

"Go to a tournament."

 

[5150]

let me translate mookeirah's long *** post

"gg. love, mookierah"

 

[tddavis]

question:

did you read ALL of the material and then try to implement it, or did you learn it step by step and try each new idea out?

question:

in 3d art do you have to play against a human opponent?


and experience is not just time commitment. if that was true then everyone at, say 40, would be equally wise, and taht SURE AS HELL isn't true.

I am saying you can get just a good with a small group of friends I apply stuff I learn in smash, I make mistakes in smash I learn and correct it. If they don't challenge me I move on. This game is not equivalent to rocket science by any means it really isn't that hard to figure out. keeping yourself challenged can make you rise to the top, I don't think tournaments are the only way to achieve that.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm just saying to put some more thought behind your opinions as opposed to going by how wavedash makes you feel. Being truthy is lame, unless you are Stephen Colbert.

You didn't bring up the level 1 computers, but you told 5150 to elaborate on it as opposed to saying "go to a tournament" in which case I explained why someone without access to good competition and tournaments who does practice with computers aren't that great. I don't know what else you want, asside from me telling you what goes on at tournaments, and all I can really say to that is:

"Go to a tournament."

Oh, thanks for clarifying then. I agree, practicing with computers isn't a good way to get better. I don't even disagree that going to tournaments or playing with tournament players is the best way to get good. I guess I just wanted a better answer from 5150, but got it from you instead, thanks.

 

[5150]

I am saying you can get just a good with a small group of friends I apply stuff I learn in smash, I make mistakes in smash I learn and correct it. If they don't challenge me I move on. This game is not equivalent to rocket science by any means it really isn't that hard to figure out.

then i guess the difference between isai and foxmaster28 is only a little bit huh (and that applies to both melee and ESPECIALLY 64)? your ignorance is unrivaled.

and i guess the reason east coast is so much better than everyone else is.........because of the cool atlantic air?

 

[flyinfilipino]

then i guess the difference between isai and foxmaster28 is only a little bit huh (and that applies to both melee and ESPECIALLY 64)? your ignorance is unrivaled.

and i guess the reason east coast is so much better than everyone else is.........because of the cool atlantic air?

Jeez, I'm sick of the attitudes here. Would it be possible to respond to something or explain without being so inappropriately obnoxious?

 

[MookieRah]

and i guess the reason east coast is so much better than everyone else is.........because of the cool atlantic air?

I think that Red Darkstar is going to mention that you've said 4 sig-able phrases with that statement. It's too good.
@flyingfilipino: I actually addressed his comment as well, but everyone also skipped over that XD.

 

[KevinM]

Mookie and 5150 are you guys going to pound?

Don't forget the beautiful coastline on the east coast yeayuzz

 

[Xanderous]

Flyinfilipino, you've handled this argument more maturely and rationally than anyone I've seen on this forum in a long time. Very nice.

 

[5150]

I think that Red Darkstar is going to mention that you've said 4 sig-able phrases with that statement. It's too good.

crashman is going to be SOOOOOOO jealous lol.

now THATS a bulletball.

 

[tddavis]

then i guess the difference between isai and foxmaster28 is only a little bit huh (and that applies to both melee and ESPECIALLY 64)? your ignorance is unrivaled.

and i guess the reason east coast is so much better than everyone else is.........because of the cool atlantic air?

What make Isai so great is he has devoted a lot of time to it, Very few have the option to put as much time into the game unless you are a pro. He has been playing since 64 that a hell of a lot of experience.

 

[5150]

Mookie and 5150 are you guys going to pound?

Don't forget the beautiful coastline on the east coast yeayuzz

if it's in my xmas break then MAYBE.

 

[MookieRah]

:-( nope. I don't have moneys to go that far, or friends crazy enough to drive that far and take my lazy ***. I'd love to go otherwise.

To quote the post from 2 pages back that addresses tddavis:

Well the thing is the simple fact that regardless of all your friends and their abilities they could not possibly encompass the variety of skill, techniques, and play styles that one would find at one decent sized tournament. That's not to say there isn't a lot to learn from your friends, but you definitely won't be the best from that kind of environment alone.

crashman is going to be SOOOOOOO jealous lol.

now THATS a bulletball.

Yay! Although I don't have a **** clue what a bullet ball is XD.

What make Isai so great is he has devoted a lot of time to it, Very few have the option to put as much time into the game unless you are a pro.

It's not just time. It is the quality of training you get out of your time as well. You can't get the same amount of diversity and techniques from a small group as you can from a large group. It's really really simple really.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Flyinfilipino, you've handled this argument more maturely and rationally than anyone I've seen on this forum in a long time. Very nice.

Thanks. I think I've made all the points I can in this thread, so I'm done. (which has nothing to do with Brawl by the way...almost)

Off-topic: Would anyone like to share with me how to not automatically subscribe to threads I reply to?

 

[RDK]

I think that Red Darkstar is going to mention that you've said 4 sig-able phrases with that statement. It's too good.

Seeing as how I'm an East-Coaster, yes, it would only do it justice if I mentioned it. But you read me too well.

@flyingfilipino: I actually addressed his comment as well, but everyone also skipped over that XD.

I know how you feel. I think I was quoted a total of 2 times in the past several pages.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

I'm just saying to put some more thought behind your opinions as opposed to going by how wavedash makes you feel. Being truthy is lame, unless you are Stephen Colbert.

You didn't bring up the level 1 computers, but you told 5150 to elaborate on it as opposed to saying "go to a tournament" in which case I explained why someone without access to good competition and tournaments who does practice with computers aren't that great. I don't know what else you want, asside from me telling you what goes on at tournaments, and all I can really say to that is:

"Go to a tournament."

I agree with this, level 1 computers are horrible practice for getting better, this is just general and common knowledge but a good example to use when needed to be brought up.

 

[KevinM]

if it's in my xmas break then MAYBE.

If you do we should get some Bowser ditto's or Sheik Ditto's, either or

at Mookie