Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[Nintendude]

Here's something I wrote earlier explaining why wavedashing can't really be considered a glitch:

Just because something is unintentional doesn't mean it is a glitch. Do you think Marth's ability to 0-death Falco with a chaingrab, juggle, and tipper was intended? Do you think the Ice Climbers chaingrab was intended? I highly doubt it. But you know what? Both are just using normal aspects of the game in unforseen ways. The EXACT same thing can be said of wavedashing.

 

[user_name]

Here's something I wrote earlier explaining why wavedashing can't really be considered a glitch:

Just because something is unintentional doesn't mean it is a glitch. Do you think Marth's ability to 0-death Falco with a chaingrab, juggle, and tipper was intended? Do you think the Ice Climbers chaingrab was intended? I highly doubt it. But you know what? Both are just using normal aspects of the game in unforseen ways. The EXACT same thing can be said of wavedashing.

And my response was that there's no landing animation. Do any of the other techniques you listed defy what would be thought of as feasibly possible, outside of simply consulting the programing of the physics engine?

^ That was stupid. Definetely not how it goes, at least when it comes to respectable competetive Smashers.

And define what you mean by "good" before you go spouting off unsound generalizations. No, casual Smashers can't be good when put up against someone who effectively uses advanced techniques. I don't see how this is even an argument.

You sir, seem almost as obsessed with semantics as Uchiharakiri, and far, far less capable of recognizing satire or parody.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I agree with user_name's above points. This whole 'argument' is useless. But it looked like it was 5 to 1 against Uchi-something, so I feel the need to post something. After all, the original point of this thread was so that 'casual' players could respond.

One thing I kept seeing a lot was that "competitive players will almost ALWAYS beat casual players." Let's put the emphasis on the other word now, because it's still true: "competitive players will ALMOST always beat casual players." I don't "hate" "competitive" players, and I don't appreciate being lumped in with those weird casual elitists that do. But it's not "100%" set in stone that simply going to tournaments and all that good stuff will guarantee your victory. Saying that 'competitive' players will always beat 'casual' players no matter what just isn't true. Instead of looking at it one way, like 'casual' = bad and 'competitive' = good, look at it the right way (or at least the way I see it). There are bad 'casuals' (n00bs, as a lot of you would like to call them), and there are good 'casuals'. There are good tournament-goers (which is what most people here mean by 'competitive', I gather), and there are not so good tournament-goers. I'm not trying to judge anyone here and put them into certain positions. So I've only been to one tournament. I payed, and there a fair amount of people entered. So this makes me a tournament-goer, right? Prior to my first tournament (which was pretty recent), the only other person I'd ever seriously played against on a regular basis was my brother. Boo, so I'm only 'casual', right? I'd agree. But I totally surprised myself and beat many people that used 'advanced techs' and used mostly Sheik and Fox and Falcon, and we played by typical tournament rules. This was my first tournament setting ever, and I didn't get my *** handed to me by all these people who very much seemed like this was something they'd done many times before. The last fight before I got elminated got down to the last stock between my Pikachu and his Samus, and it was close to the end.

But I don't want to just tell my Smash life story here, so I think I'll stop now. What I'm trying to say, in summary, is that there's no certain line that you cross that automatically makes you better than someone else all the time.

 

[Takalth]

You know.. the silly thing is that you're actually arrogant enough to think that you're self-gratifying opinion is somehow more important than the dictionary definitions of what a word means. You didn't make up the word glitch. Therefore: you don't get to define what the word means. Those who are actually into programming (such as myself and apparently user_name as well) will have a lot more knowledge

And the sad part is that you actually seem to think that you're defending Wavedashing. WDing is not under attack here. No one is saying that it's bad. No one is saying that using a glitch is bad, or that exploiting it is bad, or anything like that. You don't have to argue endlessly just to stand up for the rights of competitive players or some other such crap.

What's being said is: It's a glitch.

user_name is right here. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. End of story. Get over yourselves. You wanna be Smash experts? Fine. But this isn't about Smash. This is about Programming. And we're the programming experts here, not you. I say this with confidence, because if you actually were an expert then you're either a very noobish one (noobspert? nexpert?) or you're an outright liar. In either case: shut up.

This isn't about your opinion. This is about cold hard facts. And the fact is that your facts are wrong.

Wavedashing is a glitch. You may not like the fact that it's a glitch. You may not feel comfortable with using a glitch to win (which is actually a very scrub-like attitude. It shouldn't even matter if it's a glitch or not. The only thing that should matter is that you can use it to help you and that's all there is to discuss.) And you might not like it when some ignorant noob complains about "waaah he beat me because I'm too lazy to learn how to wavedash" but...

No one is complaining.
I can wavedash.
It's still a glitch.
You don't even know what you're saying.

If you'd stop being so arrogant as to correct someone else when they're actually right, then you'd see that there's actually no reason for you to be fighting user_name for saying that. He used the correct terminology in its proper place with its proper meaning, and you're doing nothing but shouting at the top of your lungs that "IT'S NOT BLUE! IT'S CYAN!" when you're so **** colorblind that you don't even know that there isn't a difference.

So instead of supplying new information, you figure that spending enough time insulting people will validate your point?
Yes, I'm a software developer, too, and a glitch is when a program behaves in a way that was not intended. Consider this analogy:

Imagine the game of chess hadn't been invented yet. Some programmer/game developer comes up with the game, using the exact same rules that exist in the board game and releases it.
A month later, he looks at online forums to see what people are saying about his game. He discovers that the game contains two things that he didn't intend:

1. Pawns could take other pieces by moving diagonally backward.
2. The four-move checkmate.

Neither was intentional, but only #1 is a glitch. What's the difference? In the first, the program is not behaving as intended in a given situation. In the second, the program is behaving exactly how it is supposed to but the user is applying the rules in an unforseen way.

Wavelanding is an intentional part of the game. It has the landspecial animation (visible through Action Replay) and I occasionally see computers use it. Chances are, the developers never thought of the uses of wavelanding right after jumping in the same way that the theoretical chess designer never thought about the four-move checkmate.

 

[Nintendude]

And my response was that there's no landing animation. Do any of the other things you listed defy what would be thought of as feasibly possible, outside of simply consulting the programing of the physics engine?

What do you mean there's no landing animation. You see the character land in a crouching posture, and he just happens to be sliding while doing so. You see the character transition from being in the air to standing on the ground. He doesn't instantly appear in a standing pose when you land.

The other things sound feasibly possible to anyone but is that not the case with wavedashing? Jump, air-dodge right after you start the jump. It's unconventional, but anyone who can think logically wouldn't think it's impossible. You can air-dodge whenever you are in the air and not attacking or recovering from a move, and you can air-dodge in any direction. Put 2 and 2 together and it logically makes sense.

 

[Nintendude]

But I totally surprised myself and beat many people that used 'advanced techs' and used mostly Sheik and Fox and Falcon, and we played by typical tournament rules. This was my first tournament setting ever, and I didn't get my *** handed to me by all these people who very much seemed like this was something they'd done many times before. The last fight before I got elminated got down to the last stock between my Pikachu and his Samus, and it was close to the end..

There's a difference between using advanced techniques and knowing HOW to use them. You faced scrubs. Just because someone knows the techs doesn't mean that person is not a newb. There's a guy up here at Cornell who thought he was godly because he could waveshine and up-throw up-air. Well, he was one of the dumbest players I ever faced, and he was so obsessed with trying to waveshine and grab that he did not think about anything he was trying to do.

 

[Florida]

Let me join the debate here.

The developers didn't intentionally implement wavedashing into the game, but that doesn't automatically make it a glitch. Air dodging was a feature added into the game intentionally, as well as sliding. It only so happens that if we combine the two functions, we create a new technique and strategy known as the wavedash. And that makes it a glitch?

Let's take the SHFFL as an example. The short hop, fast fall, aerial attack, and l-cancel all were added to the game by the developers' doing. Once again, it only so happens that if we combine all of those together, we come up with a new and advanced technique known as the SHFFL. How many of you consider the SHFFL as a glitch? I sure as hell don't.

Wavedashing isn't a glitch. It's an advanced and strategic technique used to help strengthen your game.

 

[flyinfilipino]

There's a difference between using advanced techniques and knowing HOW to use them. You faced scrubs. Just because someone knows the techs doesn't mean that person is not a newb. There's a guy up here at Cornell who thought he was godly because he could waveshine and up-throw up-air. Well, he was one of the dumbest players I ever faced, and he was so obsessed with trying to waveshine and grab that he did not think about anything he was trying to do.

All right, I admit that I don't know much about playing with advanced techs because I don't use them. A lot of the players I faced did. But you don't know if the players I faced were scrubs or not, you didn't fight them. Why would you automatically assume that?

 

[Nintendude]

All right, I admit that I don't know much about playing with advanced techs because I don't use them. A lot of the players I faced did. But you don't know if the players I faced were scrubs or not, you didn't fight them. Why would you automatically assume that?

I'd automatically assume that since good players don't lose to someone who's only been to 1 tournament, especially one that's using Pikachu. The only way you are gonna own with a low-tier is if you are really smart, and you aren't really smart at your first tournament.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

I thought the wavedash discussion was finally killed in this thread?

LOL @ user_name though. Your graphic owns man, really, it does, you win!

I felt like posting a reaction to all the mathematics going on but I couldn'tve done it any better than you, thumbs up.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'd automatically assume that since good players don't lose to someone who's only been to 1 tournament, especially one that's using Pikachu. The only way you are gonna own with a low-tier is if you are really smart, and you aren't really smart at your first tournament.

And what if I was really smart? I adapt fast to people's playing style. And maybe they did let their guard down against me, but I beat them fair and square. You've got generalizations on your side, but I've got 'proof', I beat some of them. Once again, I'm not saying that I'm as good as every 'competitive' player or that I can even beat any of them. But you're making the assumption that all 'casual' players aren't good, but that just isn't true for every case, you even said so.

 

[Nintendude]

And what if I was really smart? I adapt fast to people's playing style. And maybe they did let their guard down against me, but I beat them fair and square. You've got generalizations on your side, but I've got 'proof', I beat some of them. Once again, I'm not saying that I'm as good as every 'competitive' player or that I can even beat any of them. But you're making the assumption that all 'casual' players aren't good, but that just isn't true for every case, you even said so.

Your only proof is your word. That's not proof. Proof should be easy though. Name of tourney? Location? Organizer?

 

[Florida]

And what if I was really smart? I adapt fast to people's playing style. And maybe they did let their guard down against me, but I beat them fair and square. You've got generalizations on your side, but I've got 'proof', I beat some of them. Once again, I'm not saying that I'm as good as every 'competitive' player or that I can even beat any of them. But you're making the assumption that all 'casual' players aren't good, but that just isn't true for every case, you even said so.

If you've only been to one tournament, then it's a pretty good bet that you're incredibly inexperienced. Sure if you're smarter than other players you'll have some tricks up your sleeve, but people with more experience against competitive and advanced players have the much better chance of winning against casual players.

And other players slipping up doesn't mean that you're better at the game than them; neither does it mean that you're equally as good. If an experienced player slips up and self destructs for all four of his stocks, making the victor the inexperienced player, then that was simply a fluke.

 

[slikvik]

So No Ones Challenging Sliq. All Right Sliq Ten Stock Match On Flatzone All Items On, Best Of 3. Make It Happen. Noooooo Waaaavvveeeeeddaaaassshhiiinnnnggggggg. 100 Bux

 

[user_name]

What do you mean there's no landing animation. You see the character land in a crouching posture, and he just happens to be sliding while doing so. You see the character transition from being in the air to standing on the ground. He doesn't instantly appear in a standing pose when you land.

The other things sound feasibly possible to anyone but is that not the case with wavedashing? Jump, air-dodge right after you start the jump. It's unconventional, but anyone who can think logically wouldn't think it's impossible. You can air-dodge whenever you are in the air and not attacking or recovering from a move, and you can air-dodge in any direction. Put 2 and 2 together and it logically makes sense.

I'm talking about a conventional landing animation. Yes theres AN animation, but you have to admit, its a very strange one, with the character sliding forward in a crouching position and then clicking back into a standing position, without lag.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Your only proof is your word. That's not proof. Proof should be easy though. Name of tourney? Location? Organizer?

Why do I need to present proof did I did ok in a tournament setting? No one else here has had to. And it's been acknowledged that not everyone is able to travel around and go to tournaments often. Does that automatically mean that all of those people aren't good, just because they can't go to them? So the only 'good' players are the ones that can go to tournaments that lots of other big names can go to? No, I don't think that's necessarily true.

 

[Nintendude]

I'm talking about a conventional landing animation. Yes theres AN animation, but you have to admit, its a very strange one, with the character sliding forward in a crouching position and then clicking back into a standing position, without lag.

Um...no that's not weird. If you jump, you bend your knees when you land to absorb the force better. The animation in the game is exactly that, only you might slide a little due to the effects of momentum and traction. Luigi keeps sliding after he walks. That's not conventional at all. Does that mean it's unintentional?

 

[RDK]

Why do I need to present proof did I did ok in a tournament setting? No one else here has had to. And it's been acknowledged that not everyone is able to travel around and go to tournaments often. Does that automatically mean that all of those people aren't good, just because they can't go to them? So the only 'good' players are the ones that can go to tournaments that lots of other big names can go to? No, I don't think that's necessarily true.

It's a generally proven fact that people who frequent tournies and place well will be a better player than those without tourney experience.

So, in very general terms:

Experienced Tourney-goers > Casual Non-Tourney-goers

And unless you're Aniki, you're not really going anywhere anytime soon without advanced techs.

 

[flyinfilipino]

@egruntz, since the edit button's not working for me:

You're right, I would qualify as an inexperienced player against other 'competitive' players. But that doesn't mean that they're all automatically better than me. And like I said earlier, I'm not saying that I can beat any 'competitive' player at any time. And it could have been just a fluke. I didn't win the whole tournament or anything, but ok. But I beat enough people. I think they just weren't expecting me. If they get the opportunity to play me more often, they could very well beat me every time. But we wouldn't know until we tried I guess. But you can't just assume things.

@Kirby: You're right. Maybe I should try to get out and play more, it was a good challenge for me, and I would like to get better.

But there are exceptions to what you said, and it's not set in stone. You said it yourself, and I'm just agreeing.

 

[Florida]

And unless you're Aniki, you're not really going anywhere anytime soon without advanced techs.

Aniki does use advanced techniques. Such as l-canceling, SHFFLing, teching, etc., it's just that he doesn't wavedash. And beyond that, Link's wavedash sucks anyway. (who is obviously Aniki's main)

Competitive > Casual
End of discussion.

@above, since the edit button is working for me:

That does make them better than you. I even explained why in my previous message. Competitive players are better than casual players. They most likely have more experience, and they most likely put advanced techniques to good use, which is a big deal.

 

[user_name]

Um...no that's not weird. If you jump, you bend your knees when you land to absorb the force better. The animation in the game is exactly that, only you might slide a little due to the effects of momentum and traction. Luigi keeps sliding after he walks. That's not conventional at all. Does that mean it's unintentional?

Ok. How about you try this in real life. Jump forward, and slide due to your momentum, bending your knees to absorb the force. Then, without being phased, do a roundhouse kick. Not physically possible?

The difference with Luigi's friction is that this isn't caused by the physics model. This is caused by the developers manipulating the physics model to receive a desired result.


Again, all of your arguments can be made for any technique that's widely accepted as a glitch, too.

 

[RDK]

Aniki does use advanced techniques. Such as l-canceling, SHFFLing, teching, etc., it's just that he doesn't wavedash. And beyond that, Link's wavedash sucks anyway. (who is obviously Aniki's main)

My bad for not making myself clear. That's what I meant; he uses adv. techs, but he doesn't WD.

I'm doing like 50 things at once right now, so forgive me if I trip up a little bit.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You know.. the silly thing is that you're actually arrogant enough to think that you're self-gratifying opinion is somehow more important than the dictionary definitions of what a word means. You didn't make up the word glitch. Therefore: you don't get to define what the word means. Those who are actually into programming (such as myself and apparently user_name as well) will have a lot more knowledge

And the sad part is that you actually seem to think that you're defending Wavedashing. WDing is not under attack here. No one is saying that it's bad. No one is saying that using a glitch is bad, or that exploiting it is bad, or anything like that. You don't have to argue endlessly just to stand up for the rights of competitive players or some other such crap.

What's being said is: It's a glitch.

user_name is right here. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. End of story. Get over yourselves. You wanna be Smash experts? Fine. But this isn't about Smash. This is about Programming. And we're the programming experts here, not you. I say this with confidence, because if you actually were an expert then you're either a very noobish one (noobspert? nexpert?) or you're an outright liar. In either case: shut up.

This isn't about your opinion. This is about cold hard facts. And the fact is that your facts are wrong.

Wavedashing is a glitch. You may not like the fact that it's a glitch. You may not feel comfortable with using a glitch to win (which is actually a very scrub-like attitude. It shouldn't even matter if it's a glitch or not. The only thing that should matter is that you can use it to help you and that's all there is to discuss.) And you might not like it when some ignorant noob complains about "waaah he beat me because I'm too lazy to learn how to wavedash" but...

No one is complaining.
I can wavedash.
It's still a glitch.
You don't even know what you're saying.

If you'd stop being so arrogant as to correct someone else when they're actually right, then you'd see that there's actually no reason for you to be fighting user_name for saying that. He used the correct terminology in its proper place with its proper meaning, and you're doing nothing but shouting at the top of your lungs that "IT'S NOT BLUE! IT'S CYAN!" when you're so **** colorblind that you don't even know that there isn't a difference.

http://roabs.blogspot.com/2007/11/wavedash-is-still-not-glitch.html

I am a programmer, and I've been programming for longer than user_name has. I am a computer science major here at college. So, apparently I have access to the cold hard facts as well. user_name is totally fabricating this "wave-landing animation is unnatural" story. There is nothing unnatural about it. Wavedashing is an exploit, not a glitch.

Get your facts straight. I am surprised you didn't notice the "Video Smash Nexus" link in my sig.

 

[slikvik]

And unless you're Aniki, you're not really going anywhere anytime soon without advanced techs.

Lol, you think Aniki doesnt use advanced techniques. wow at brawl forums

 

[RDK]

Lol, you think Aniki doesnt use advanced techniques. wow at brawl forums

Try reading my last post before passing judgement, imbecile.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Competitive > Casual
End of discussion.

@above, since the edit button is working for me:

It does make it so that they are better than you. I even explained why in my previous message. Competitive players are better than casual players. They most likely have more experience, and they most likely put advanced techniques to good use, which is a big deal.

And what if I could beat them, which could be possible? Don't say that it's impossible for me to put up a good fight or win. It would just be a fluke wouldn't it? If they beat me, it probably wouldn't be acknowledged as a fluke, and I might agree. The only way to know for sure is if we got to play each other often. It's not automatic. There's a bunch of what-if's here, I know, but the whole issue's not set in stone anyway.

 

[slikvik]

Try reading my last post before passing judgement, imbecile.

when you post something ******** like that, you immediately lose the right to insult others

edit: you guys post every other minute. it wouldnt hurt to actually read the crap youre posting

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And what if I could beat them, which could be possible? Don't say that it's impossible for me to put up a good fight or win.

Play against the likes of g-reg or Ken and try putting up a "good fight." They'll JV 4 stock you in a heartbeat, kid.

Smooth Criminal

Edit:

when you post something ******** like that, you immediately lose the right to insult others

edit: you guys post every other minute. it wouldnt hurt to actually read the crap youre posting

And because you don't know how to READ what is posted, you automatically lose the right to even make a rebuttal like that.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Play against the likes of g-reg or Ken and try putting up a "good fight." They'll JV 4 stock you in a heartbeat, kid.

Smooth Criminal

So every 'competitive' player is g-reg or Ken. Right.

 

[RDK]

when you post something ******** like that, you immediately lose the right to insult others

edit: you guys post every other minute. it wouldnt hurt to actually read the crap youre posting

Listen, friend, it wasn't me who started the insults. Just because I visit the Brawl Boards once and a while doesn't mean what I say should be overlooked as stupid. And I don't visit the Brawl Boards for intelligent conversation, I do it because it's fun to yell at n00bs.

Judge me by the substance of what I have to say, not what part of SWF I go to.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

So every 'competitive' player is g-reg or Ken. Right.

Judging from what you're saying, they may as well be.

*shrugs.*

Whatever. This thread SHOULD BE CLOSED.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Loooooni]

when you post something ******** like that, you immediately lose the right to insult others

edit: you guys post every other minute. it wouldnt hurt to actually read the crap youre posting

Hey ******* actually read what they say before you post....

 

[flyinfilipino]

Judging from what you're saying, they may as well be.

*shrugs.*

Whatever. This thread SHOULD BE CLOSED.

Smooth Criminal

No sir. If you would've read one of my earlier posts, I said that I'm not saying that I'm better than or can beat any 'competitive' player.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

@ Smooth Criminal.

flyinfilipino is talking about competetive players in general, not smash gods like g-reg or ken. He's talking about the competetive "average" and his chances.

EDIT: CRAP you guys post fast O.o

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@ Smooth Criminal.

flyinfilipino is talking about competetive players in general, not smash gods like g-reg or ken. He's talking about the competetive "average" and his chances.

EDIT: CRAP you guys post fast O.o

...oh.

Whoops. Well, I do owe you an apology of some kind. Do cookies work, Filipino?

Smooth Criminal

 

[flyinfilipino]

@ Smooth Criminal.

flyinfilipino is talking about competetive players in general, not smash gods like g-reg or ken. He's talking about the competetive "average" and his chances.

EDIT: CRAP you guys post fast O.o

Yes sir, that's exactly what I meant. And sorry, I can't help that the Internet here is super fast .

Why isn't The Hypnotist posting in his own 'epic thread'?

@Criminal: I like cookies, but if you like them better, you can keep it. Apology accepted.

 

[M.K]

That seems like complete bull****. You can't get good at something unless you're exposed to a wide verity of strategy and skill. (like you would if you traveled for tournies all the time) You cant POSSIBLY have an even CLOSE experience just playing a few of your local friends. Not because you don't have the ability to be as good as someone else, but because you're not exposed to the same palette of skill/strategy which a tourny goer would be exposed to.

Ok, so you can't get good from online tutorials and videos? You can't get good by yourself? See below.

This post right here demonstrates your complete ignorance on the situation. Traveling smashers defeat non-traveling smashers 99.99% of the time. I travel. I know. Non-travelers don't travel, so how are they in any position to say otherwise? Traveling smashers play a wider variety of opponents and know more tricks than smashers who never travel. This is an indisputable fact. What you are basically stating is that you are offended that we dare suggest that there are people out there who are far better than you who actually do what it takes to get better as opposed to sitting at home and smashing with friends.

So, before you retort with "how big my ego is", care to offer proof that traveling does NOT make someone better? I DEFY YOU to find any such proof.

Someone who lives in Los Angeles, New York, or other big cities with tournaments (not saying that other small cities don't) doesn't travel, but may win tournaments. They are exposed to many people because the PEOPLE come to THEM. There, I just defied your logic. Cool down, ok? You are REALLY coming off as cocky and downright rude, and nobody appreciates that! Some of us are calmly expressing our opinion and you just shut us down. I'm not disrespecting you, so please don't disrespect me or the others. Try to be just a little calmer. It....really isn't that big of a deal. Life isn't a Video Game, and you can't make a living off it, so why worry so much?

 

[slikvik]

EDIT: CRAP you guys post fast O.o

aint it the truth. and they actually expect me to read every post. lol

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Two posters actually stopping an argument and being friendly to each other!
I thought I'd never see this on the Brawl boards!

You two have just made my day ^-^

 

[MookieRah]

OH NOES!! Wavedashing is a glitch!! Why?? Because the word Glitch derives from the German glitschig, meaning 'slippery.' OMFG!!!

Also, pulling out this programming for many years nonsense doesn't change what the hell a glitch is. Wikipedia has a well defined section on VIDEO GAME GLITCHES, as well as the standard glitch.

Check it:

A computer glitch is the failure of a system, usually containing a computing device, to complete its functions or to perform them properly. It frequently refers to an error which is not detected at the time it occurs but shows up later in data errors or incorrect human decisions. While the fault is usually attributed to the computer hardware, this is often not the case since hardware failures rarely go undetected. Other situations which are frequently called computer glitches are:

* Incorrectly written software (software bug)
* Incorrect instructions given by the operator (operator error) (this might also be considered a software bug)
* Undetected invalid input data (this might also be considered a software bug)
* Undetected communications errors
* Computer viruses
* Computer security cracking (sometimes erroneously called "hacking")
* Another human error unrelated to the computer

Some computer glitches can prevent process of work and make some documents unusable.

By this guideline wavedashing isn't a glitch at all. Not even close. Stop being biased and using a title or your skill in programming as a reason you are more correct in your definition of what is and isn't a glitch.

I honestly never gave a **** about the semantics of the wavedash, that is until the few casuals that were arguing the point made such a big deal out of it that it became clear to me that in order to satisfy them one would have to undoubtably prove that it isn't, which gave it meaning to do.

On a side note, this thread has gone to hell quite hardcore.