Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[Nintendude]

Plus the knowledge on how not only to fight me, but a Marth, and that is my point. Basically you're saying, what decides someone's skill and how good they are, is how much money and time they have and can afford to use in order to get better, and NOT their capacity as an individual who can learn.

You don't get it.

They learn how to fight ONE Marth. Everyone plays differently.

Why don't you find a real example of someone who's never really traveled who's really good (basically someone who did really well at his first tournament) if you want to prove your point. All the evidence points to my side of the argument.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

False. I see countless posts of people roughly stating, "I could compete with pros if insert change of ruleset here." Plenty of people have stated that if competitives didn't use gliches, didn't ban items, didn't ban certain stages that they could and would win.

Now that's just silly talk. I agree with you.

The odds of a casual beating a seasoned vet is so small that it is basically negligible. Just like a penny. Sure, a penny is money, but when you have $50 bucks on you, that penny is negligible, and you toss it on the ground, leave it in the tip jar (or leave a penny take a penny tray), or give it to the Salvation Army in a bucket by a guy with a bell.

I do not agree with you here, it may be small but it IS there and pennies DO add up to dollars in the end, you might as well say a casual player CAN beat a seasoned vet with...

False. Mindgames > Tech Skill

Enough mind games, tech skill being one of the things a casual would lack most, un?

You can practice tech skill all you want, but your lack of experience will shine through when someone experienced plays you. They will seem to be psychic, knowing what you'll do, knowing where you'll tech, etc. Veterans are better at seeing and recognizing patterns and punishing said patterns.

Therefore, you can grow accustomed to how your buddy plays, but when you play someone who has played people like your buddy, and hundreds more, you will lose.

To further illustrate my point, here is a graph:

As you can see, you can develop your skills by not traveling. But if you compare it to the other bar, you will realize you are silly.

Once more, this is the kind of stuff that irks me, it is a very high and mighty-ish thing dude.

Why wouldn't I want people to accept my challenge? Why would I put 100$ out there if I didn't want to play people who think, "Hey, I could win that money!"

But they won't.

Edit: I spelled casual wrong in my graph. -_-;

Once again, this is the kind of behavior that makes the casual elitist whiner noobs and casual well meaning players who don't care about a tournament scene to look upon it as something for the high and mighty with an elitism complex, you're really not a good role model, from my point of view. You strike me as a Dylan-Lite.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

You don't get it.

They learn how to fight ONE Marth. Everyone plays differently.

Why don't you find a real example of someone who's never really traveled who's really good (basically someone who did really well at his first tournament) if you want to prove your point. All the evidence points to my side of the argument.

You are right, but I cannot really find you a good example like the kind you offered me to find, as someone who is not able to travel would hardly be able to be found at a tournament and thus cannot do really well in a tournament in the first place. As such because of this it may be pointing to your side of the argument, but in my view, it may just be pointing to a more neutral point, I am not biased between either scene. For example, on one end I know the whiny noobs who say items can ruin someone like Ken against them are simply just saying it to make themselves feel better. I simply am able to find fault in both places that's all.

 

[Nintendude]

Enough mind games, tech skill being one of the things a casual would lack most, un?

Wrong.

It's hard to put this in a nicer way but casual players tend to be really stupid players. Like, they just run into stuff, constantly leave themselves open, and fall for really simple tricks like waiting for a roll. Even players who've traveled a little bit are usually pretty stupid and often fall for things like waiting for spot-dodges. It takes a lot of experience to get smart, and that's all that really matters in the end.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Wrong.

It's hard to put this in a nicer way but casual players tend to be really stupid players. Like, they just run into stuff, constantly leave themselves open, and fall for really simple tricks like waiting for a roll. Even players who've traveled a little bit are usually pretty stupid and often fall for things like waiting for spot-dodges. It takes a lot of experience to get smart, and that's all that really matters in the end.

I know the casual player you speak of, I actually do wait for them to roll from what they think would be an attack from me a lot of the time. I think that's like, played for 3 months consistently every day level or something. Or just not played much at all with other people other than their friends whom as well haven't played many others, or much at all.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Uchiharakiri, you are an absolute pain to debate with. You have this tendency to ignore the bigger picture and just pick apart small sections of sentences, which is extremely annoying because you take these tiny statements out of context. No progress is being made because you refuse to just accept knowledge from people are who are more experienced in this field than you are. Sliq has made dozens of perfectly valid points, and my agreeing with him has nothing to do with me "blindly supporting another competitive smasher" or "hating on casual players".

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Uchiharakiri, you are an absolute pain to debate with. You have this tendency to ignore the bigger picture and just pick apart small sections of sentences, which is extremely annoying because you take these tiny statements out of context. No progress is being made because you refuse to just accept knowledge from people are who are more experienced in this field than you are. Sliq has made dozens of perfectly valid points, and my agreeing with him has nothing to do with me "blindly supporting another competitive smasher" or "hating on casual players".

I like how you failed to see that I did agree with him on one point, that makes your "blindly supporting another competitive smasher" statement now 70 percent valid in my eyes, whereas beforehand I would have just said it to be 0 percent valid; kind of makes your "ignoring the big picture" statement kind of invalid too, dude...As for picking apart little things, you should know that it is little things that make up a big thing, that is how I go about rationalizing things, it may seem like there is no progress being done because of the slow pace. I'm sorry you find me a pain to debate with me though, perhaps you aren't used to debating with my kind of people, perhaps you're more used to the kind of people the literally think turning on items will allow them to beat Gimpy, you, or Sliq.

If you want, when Brawl comes out you and I can fight so you can let some of that frustration out. But let it be henceforth be known that I have never stated myself to be better than anyone else in the entirety of this thread, unlike some people...I'm just not like that.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I like how you failed to see that I did agree with him on one point, that makes your "blindly supporting another competitive smasher" statement now 40 percent valid in my eyes, whereas beforehand I would have just said it to be 0 percent valid. As for picking apart little things, you should know that it is little things that make up a big thing, that is how I go about rationalizing things, it may seem like there is no progress being done because of the slow pace. I'm sorry you find me a pain to debate with me though, perhaps you aren't used to debating with my kind of people, perhaps you're more used to the kind of people the literally think turning on items will allow them to beat Gimpy, you, or Sliq.

But that's my point... You believe that working on these little things will add up to making your statements valid, but they just are not true. I get the feeling that you are hoping to build up to proclaiming that traveling does not make players infinitely better than those who do not travel, for instance. The current evidence contradicts your statements, but you just choose to work at it slowly. Basically, we come before you and say, "This is an apple, people." You sit, stare, and say, "Well no, if you tilt your head and squint a bit, the color and shape changes... so I think it is a pear." No matter how much reasoning you use, you are hacking at horribly flawed logic. Smashers who travel win. Rather than present proof of some player who stayed at home smashing with his friends, you just try to reason how a person could theoretically get better to the point of being better than a traveler. We have proof. YOU HAVE NONE.

And just so you know, I do not become upset at people because they refuse to agree with me. I am OK with a discussion being prolonged to eternity... I just become frustrated at people who somehow dismiss blatant evidence being placed before them. I am willing to admit when I am wrong, but you struggle in this area.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

I just found myself some extra motivation to get better...

@Sliq. I know you're a great player, an awesomely skilled player even. I wouldn't be able to win and I live to far away from you to take the challenge anyway.
However, over the next few months, I will try to travel to as many tournaments as I can. Train as much as I can over the course of 2008 and I'm gonna remember you.
Then whenever I'm in US at some point, I'll challenge you to a money match... You're just someone I wanna beat even though I know I wouldn't be able to right now.

(You have valid arguments though, I'll give you that, you are intelligent, but I don't like your attitude )

@Uchi. I like your attitude better But... no man... try to debate less by attacking quotes and more by simply thinking through your own words, forming a "point" you want to prove and "if" you can prove it at all. Then post. Trust me, it helps gain respect around here.

 

[Nintendude]

I like how you failed to see that I did agree with him on one point, that makes your "blindly supporting another competitive smasher" statement now 70 percent valid in my eyes, whereas beforehand I would have just said it to be 0 percent valid. As for picking apart little things, you should know that it is little things that make up a big thing, that is how I go about rationalizing things, it may seem like there is no progress being done because of the slow pace.

First of all I don't even get what kind of connection you are trying to make.

Second you are ignorant about high level Smash if you think that you can't just analyze Smash as one big thing. You've also shown that you are ignorant many other times in this thread (like the mindgames comment). I don't have time to debate with people who are ignorant so I don't feel like posting anything else in response to this.

Also, thanks for providing me with even more proof that non-competitive players are just ignorant. I mentioned that earlier I think.

 

[Lgndknight]

1) people whine about WD'ing, as if it gives you an amazing advantage, it's usually slower than running, but you can smash out of it. it balances, since it's usually pretty slow. While I'm somewhere between competive and casual leanining towards competitive, since when just practicing with my friends I play a 4 stock match with no time limit.

2) FD give significant advantages to Marth, since theres really no escape from the fsmash. somebody with good timing that knocks you away enough can just edgeguard till you die. Battlefield will be fixed in brawl since it's bigger, but don't things fall away in Brawl Battlefield?

3) Yes I think Mewtwo and Pika etc. were meant to be item gods, balancing things out. if something spawns between pikachu, it depends where it is on who gets to it first.

4) Hyrule Temple does have it's (in)famous "Death Zone" since it is pretty much a factor of luck. However, you can draw people out of it since waiting them out means one of you looses, and who's gonna be in the Death Zone if they're worried about their damage? (hint: they're losing)

 

[Uchiharakiri]

But that's my point... You believe that working on these little things will add up to making your statements valid, but they just are not true. I get the feeling that you are hoping to build up to proclaiming that traveling does not make players infinitely better than those who do not travel, for instance. The current evidence contradicts your statements, but you just choose to work at it slowly. Basically, we come before you and say, "This is an apple, people." You sit, stare, and say, "Well no, if you tilt your head and squint a bit, the color and shape changes... so I think it is a pear." No matter how much reasoning you use, you are hacking at horribly flawed logic. Smashers who travel win. Rather than present proof of some player who stayed at home smashing with his friends, you just try to reason how a person could theoretically get better to the point of being better than a traveler. We have proof. YOU HAVE NONE.

And just so you know, I do not become upset at people because they refuse to agree with me. I am OK with a discussion being prolonged to eternity... I just become frustrated at people who somehow dismiss blatant evidence being placed before them. I am willing to admit when I am wrong, but you struggle in this area.

Well, it can't possibly make travelers infinitely better than non travelers because theres -always- room for improvement, am I not right with this logic? Let me tell you dude I'm all about logic. Yes, there is -always- room for improvement no matter how confined that room may be. I'll use the example of a Korean movie Old Boy. In that movie the protagonist get's kidnapped and locked in a small room for like 15 years or something, with no t.v., entertainment, nothing, just himself. Thus in order to keep himself sane he simply shadow boxes day to day and counts the days he's been in there. When he's finally out though he finds that he's made himself invariably stronger and faster than he was 15 years ago due to all the shadow boxing, basically I'm saying he ends up being able to kick ***.

Now this is where one will say. "But he doesn't know how to fight against people." this is where Smash and the movie are different, you can have all the technical skill(strength) you want, but if you do not know how to use it, you will just lose to a smarter opponent(mind games). This is where the point is missed, the protagonist in the movie had an infinite amount of time to strengthen himself (15 years is a long time but not infinite, still long though). Just like travelers have an infinite time to strenghten their mind game. What I'm saying is, traveling cannot and is not a concrete indicator of how strong or skilled someone can get, because of the scenario I just talked about. All someone would need is to get out there and get some experience. I never did say anything flat out final about one being better than the other.

 

[Nintendude]

1) people whine about WD'ing, as if it gives you an amazing advantage, it's usually slower than running, but you can smash out of it. it balances, since it's usually pretty slow. While I'm somewhere between competive and casual leanining towards competitive, since when just practicing with my friends I play a 4 stock match with no time limit.

WDing isn't really used simply for moving around if you aren't Luigi or ICs. It's used for so many more things than that and is certainly NOT slow.

2) FD give significant advantages to Marth, since theres really no escape from the fsmash. somebody with good timing that knocks you away enough can just edgeguard till you die. Battlefield will be fixed in brawl since it's bigger, but don't things fall away in Brawl Battlefield?

It also gives significant advantages to Ice Climbers. Also good players can escape the f-smash. It's not THAT godly.

3) Yes I think Mewtwo and Pika etc. were meant to be item gods, balancing things out. if something spawns between pikachu, it depends where it is on who gets to it first.

Falcon and Fox are item gods. No Contest. Mewtwo? LOL

4) Hyrule Temple does have it's (in)famous "Death Zone" since it is pretty much a factor of luck. However, you can draw people out of it since waiting them out means one of you looses, and who's gonna be in the Death Zone if they're worried about their damage? (hint: they're losing)

What happens if you are down a stock and the opponent has 200% damage and is camping in the cave. You pretty much HAVE to go after him. The person could also just run away the entire match and win, which is easily possible if he's like Fox and you are someone like Peach.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

First of all I don't even get what kind of connection you are trying to make.

Second you are ignorant about high level Smash if you think that you can't just analyze Smash as one big thing. You've also shown that you are ignorant many other times in this thread (like the mindgames comment). I don't have time to debate with people who are ignorant so I don't feel like posting anything else in response to this.

Also, thanks for providing me with even more proof that non-competitive players are just ignorant. I mentioned that earlier I think.

Do not confuse me with a scrub, it is very elitist behavior in my opinion, seriously, it's insulting to me; I ACTUALLY believe it IS okay to learn wavedashing in order to strengthen your skills and mindgames and thus, win, I can't possibly be the evil scrub. I mean really people, let's not go around telling people who's opinions are not the equivalent of "I can beat you if items were on" that they are ignorant, that is seriously just wrong.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Okay Uchi let me try to explain it to you in a different way... I'm not personally attacking or flaming you just so you know.

But who do you think is gonna gain skill "faster"?
The travelling player who meets pro's, sees how they play, fights against them, sees what they do to him, and learns how to defend in-practice against their tactics? (And probably will get hints and training from them)
Or the one, like me, who's stuck in a country without a smash scene, is already the best out of all his friends and then ends up getting kicked out in the 2nd round of the loser's bracket at an actual tourney?

This is why I'm soooo thankful for Wi-Fi... I do attend tournaments yes, attended two so far (only one with official rules though as mentioned earlier, the other was FFA items-on all stages) but not often and I experience that when I get my behind handed to me on a silver platter. I improve yes, but after every tournament I feel much more improvement in a single day than after weeks of playing my friends.

 

[Nintendude]

Do not confuse me with a scrub, it is very elitist behavior in my opinion, seriously, it's insulting to me. I mean really people, let's not go around telling people who's opinions are not the equivalent of "I can beat you if items were on" that they are ignorant, that is seriously just wrong.

Fine I'll reply again.

I never said you were a scrub. I said you were IGNORANT. How can I possibly put it nicer? Ignorant means you don't really have knowledge about something. Well, you don't have knowledge about high level Smash. All you know is what you can see on the outside from reading some things and watching some videos. That's hardly anything.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Fine I'll reply again.

I never said you were a scrub. I said you were IGNORANT. How can I possibly put it nicer? Ignorant means you don't really have knowledge about something. Well, you don't have knowledge about high level Smash. All you know is what you can see on the outside from reading some things and watching some videos. That's hardly anything.

Is not a scrub a person who whines about wave dashing and yet ignores the fact that they too can learn to wave dash and short hop and l cancel, yet they do not? Is that not ignorant behavior? Also for the record, nobody here really knows of someone else's skill level. For example I know Sliq to be high leveled, but you, I am not quite so sure about yours, so should you too give me the same courtesy of a graceful, skilled winner; and not shoe me in to be low leveled from outright glance. Thankyou.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well, it can't possibly make travelers infinitely better than non travelers because theres -always- room for improvement, am I not right with this logic? Let me tell you dude I'm all about logic. Yes, there is -always- room for improvement no matter how confined that room may be. I'll use the example of a Korean movie Old Boy. In that movie the protagonist get's kidnapped and locked in a small room for like 15 years or something, with no t.v., entertainment, nothing, just himself. Thus in order to keep himself sane he simply shadow boxes day to day and counts the days he's been in there. When he's finally out though he finds that he's made himself invariably stronger and faster than he was 15 years ago due to all the shadow boxing, basically I'm saying he ends up being able to kick ***.

Now this is where one will say. "But he doesn't know how to fight against people." this is where Smash and the movie are different, you can have all the technical skill(strength) you want, but if you do not know how to use it, you will just lose to a smarter opponent(mind games). This is where the point is missed, the protagonist in the movie had an infinite amount of time to strengthen himself (15 years is a long time but not infinite, still long though). Just like travelers have an infinite time to strenghten their mind game. What I'm saying is, traveling cannot and is not a concrete indicator of how strong or skilled someone can get, because of the scenario I just talked about. All someone would need is to get out there and get some experience. I never did say anything flat out final about one being better than the other.

Let's have a race from Oregon to Florida. You walk. I'll drive. Let's see who wins.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Let's have a race from Oregon to Florida. You walk. I'll drive. Let's see who wins.

You will drive, you will get there before me. But I will eventually get there, it's not about who's fastest but who can get there, and even walking can someone get there. Now jumping back into Smash world, when I do arrive there, based from your comparison and analogy, I too will be as skilled as you. I mean where else are you going to drive to, you already got to where you wanted to get to, are you going to drive into the sea? Regardless, I'll give you a neat little surprise twist ending(not really the end of this I guess but lol)....

I live in Florida, seems like I already beat you there huh?
(This can be taken to mean that I am already "there" and as such "better", but I make no such claim seriously, it is only for suspense and comedic effect.)) Cause like, maybe you know, who knows in the end really huh? -gaspdundundungasp-

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

You will drive, you will get there before me. But I will eventually get there, it's not about who's fastest but who can get there, and even walking can someone get there. Now jumping back into Smash world, when I do arrive there, based from your comparison and analogy, I too will be as skilled as you. I mean where else are you going to drive to, you already got to where you wanted to get to, are you going to drive into the sea? Regardless, I'll give you a neat little surprise twist ending(not really the end of this I guess but lol)....

I live in Florida, seems like I already beat you there huh?
(This can be taken to mean that I am already "there" and as such "better", but I make no such claim seriously, it is only for suspense and comedic effect.)) Cause like, maybe you know, who knows in the end really huh? -gaspdundundungasp-

This is where you are wrong. It is about speed. Sure, if I keep practicing, someday I'll be able to beat Mew2King, but I'll have two problems. One, he'll probably have retired by then; two, no one will care anymore. Tournaments will all be dead. Getting better fast is indeed a crucial aspect.

 

[Nintendude]

Is not a scrub a person who whines about wave dashing and yet ignores the fact that they too can learn to wave dash and short hop and l cancel, yet they do not? Is that not ignorant behavior? Also for the record, nobody here really knows of someone else's skill level. For example I know Sliq to be high leveled, but you, I am not quite so sure about yours, so should you too give me the same courtesy of a graceful, skilled winner; and not shoe me in to be low leveled from outright glance. Thankyou.

You are lacking logic skills. Whiner = ignorant. That does not mean that an ignorant person is always a whiner. You are ignorant but not whining.

I'll lay down some of my most recent accomplishments so you can be sure that I'm not some random guy who came out of nowhere to debate:

3rd at a NYST 3, beat Kip
3rd at a Smashacre tournament, beat PockyD x2, Emblem Lord
Smashacre pools: beat CWJAlex, SwiftBass
13th at same Smashacre, beat Ky. Also beat Inui and Magus in teams

I also beat Ryoko, Reik, WoZ, and Plank in friendlies (with all of us using our mains), but those don't really count for much.

There's kind of a gap in what I mean by "recent" since I've been at college and out of the scene for a few months.

 

[Eaode]

Well, it can't possibly make travelers infinitely better than non travelers because theres -always- room for improvement, am I not right with this logic? Let me tell you dude I'm all about logic. Yes, there is -always- room for improvement no matter how confined that room may be. I'll use the example of a Korean movie Old Boy. In that movie the protagonist get's kidnapped and locked in a small room for like 15 years or something, with no t.v., entertainment, nothing, just himself. Thus in order to keep himself sane he simply shadow boxes day to day and counts the days he's been in there. When he's finally out though he finds that he's made himself invariably stronger and faster than he was 15 years ago due to all the shadow boxing, basically I'm saying he ends up being able to kick ***.

Now this is where one will say. "But he doesn't know how to fight against people." this is where Smash and the movie are different, you can have all the technical skill(strength) you want, but if you do not know how to use it, you will just lose to a smarter opponent(mind games). This is where the point is missed, the protagonist in the movie had an infinite amount of time to strengthen himself (15 years is a long time but not infinite, still long though). Just like travelers have an infinite time to strenghten their mind game. What I'm saying is, traveling cannot and is not a concrete indicator of how strong or skilled someone can get, because of the scenario I just talked about. All someone would need is to get out there and get some experience. I never did say anything flat out final about one being better than the other.

Ignoring the fact that you're comparing boxing to smash, AND the fact that you're basing it off a movie....

Person who punches air for 15 years vs person who actually boxes for 15 years. Who wins?
The person who boxes 15 year is obviously stronger, and he knows common human behavior and instinct and can fight smart instead of just fight strong.

So, even if your analogy wasn't out of place, it's still wrong.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Man, I hope tournaments don't die out soon. LOL, that would suck so much! I'm only now beginning to get better
I mean, I only learned to correctly shffl two months ago

Yeah, I better start saving money and being friendly to pro's so they'll give me their friend code and train me! Hehehe (Yeah, I do think I'm funny, I'm arrogant like that And yes, I did overuse this smiley in this post)

 

[Nintendude]

This is where you are wrong. It is about speed. Sure, if I keep practicing, someday I'll be able to beat Mew2King, but I'll have two problems. One, he'll probably have retired by then; two, no one will care anymore. Tournaments will all be dead. Getting better fast is indeed a crucial aspect.

Actually I'm not sure if any amount of non-tournament practice would get you good enough to beat m2k lol, even if it was 100 years worth.

 

[Florida]

You will drive, you will get there before me. But I will eventually get there, it's not about who's fastest but who can get there, and even walking can someone get there. Now jumping back into Smash world, when I do arrive there, based from your comparison and analogy, I too will be as skilled as you. I mean where else are you going to drive to, you already got to where you wanted to get to, are you going to drive into the sea? Regardless, I'll give you a neat little surprise twist ending(not really the end of this I guess but lol)....

I live in Florida, seems like I already beat you there huh?
(This can be taken to mean that I am already "there" and as such "better", but I make no such claim seriously, it is only for suspense and comedic effect.)) Cause like, maybe you know, who knows in the end really huh? -gaspdundundungasp-

First of all let me say that you have bad comprehension skills. Buzz wasn't being literal, he was using a metaphor. Let's compare what Buzz said, and what he meant:

• Walking = Casual Player
• Driving = Advanced Player

Of course if you choose to ride a car for the race, you're going to win. In this case, if you choose to use and master advanced techniques, you're going to win against someone who doesn't. If there are two cars, then that all depends on the motor

I, by the way, chose to ride a Ferrari
Good thread, Hypnotist.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Actually I'm not sure if any amount of non-tournament practice would get you good enough to beat m2k lol, even if it was 100 years worth.

M2K would be dead by then if I wasn't also...

 

[Uchiharakiri]

This is where you are wrong. It is about speed. Sure, if I keep practicing, someday I'll be able to beat Mew2King, but I'll have two problems. One, he'll probably have retired by then; two, no one will care anymore. Tournaments will all be dead. Getting better fast is indeed a crucial aspect.

And that there is what I've been trying to say this whole time. Even if you go slowly, you'll get there, which goes back to my "traveling is not the only way to win." Lol, by the time you'd get there everyone would be retired and not caring, but you'll still be the best and no one would could stand up to ya.

 

[Eaode]

And that there is what I've been trying to say this whole time. Even if you go slowly, you'll get there, which goes back to my "traveling is not the only way to win." Lol, by the time you'd get there everyone would be retired and not caring, but you'll still be the best and no one would could stand up to ya.

Which does nothing to further the debae because the scenario is completely irrelevent

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Ignoring the fact that you're comparing boxing to smash, AND the fact that you're basing it off a movie....

Person who punches air for 15 years vs person who actually boxes for 15 years. Who wins?
The person who boxes 15 year is obviously stronger, and he knows common human behavior and instinct and can fight smart instead of just fight strong.

So, even if your analogy wasn't out of place, it's still wrong.

Doesn't mean the person left closed in the room for 15 years can practice against the actual boxer.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Which does nothing to further the debae because the scenario is completely irrelevent

I don't see how you see it irrelevant. But okay.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

First of all let me say that you have bad comprehension skills. Buzz wasn't being literal, he was using a metaphor. Let's compare what Buzz said, and what he meant:

• Walking = Casual Player
• Driving = Advanced Player

Of course if you choose to ride the car for the race, you're going to win. In this case, if you choose to use and master advanced techniques, you're going to win against someone who doesn't. If there are two cars, then that all depends on the motor

I, by the way, chose to ride a Ferrari
Good thread, Hypnotist.

I used his metaphor and used one of my own in comparison to it's terms and boundaries set so as to explain my side. Regardless of all of this, I have to go play some Smash now, brb later I'll get back to your responses if any, later.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

But Uchi... How would you ever know if you're better than the "best" if you haven't ever gotten the chance to beat the best?

Suppose, hypothetically speaking and all that, that you'd get there. But Ken and Mew2King and such would have retired... How would you know, even though you're the "current" best of the world, you'd actually be better than those two?

Winning more tournaments isn't an option since you just might have (again, hypothetically) participated in more. So... how?

EDIT: Whoa, who reduced the character limit for your posts? O.o (no offense... but I'm clueless though)

 

[Eaode]

Stop double posting.

I don't at all understand your response to the boxing comment.

And the scenario is irrelevant because no one is going to keep practicing years after smash is dead so they will be better than anyone was at the game, and if they do, they deserve to just jump off a cliff and die.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

And that there is what I've been trying to say this whole time. Even if you go slowly, you'll get there, which goes back to my "traveling is not the only way to win." Lol, by the time you'd get there everyone would be retired and not caring, but you'll still be the best and no one would could stand up to ya.

So, lemme get this straight... You've been ignoring what we have been trying to say in order to defend a completely random, superficial, but barely logical point? Who cares if smashfests with friends makes you better slowly? The point is progressing to a point where your skills actually matter in the current competitive atmosphere. Sure, if I keep playing Melee 10 years from now, I'm sure I'll be the best! ... WHO CARES? Why did you go this far off course to defend a worthless point?

 

[RDK]

And that there is what I've been trying to say this whole time. Even if you go slowly, you'll get there, which goes back to my "traveling is not the only way to win." Lol, by the time you'd get there everyone would be retired and not caring, but you'll still be the best and no one would could stand up to ya.

The whole point of Smash is to have fun being competetive with other people. It's a social activity. So why the hell would you train and become the best at a game than has been dead for 100 years, and that nobody plays? That's ridiculous.

 

[Paingel]

Read my post: 3rd paragraph

You know.. the silly thing is that you're actually arrogant enough to think that you're self-gratifying opinion is somehow more important than the dictionary definitions of what a word means. You didn't make up the word glitch. Therefore: you don't get to define what the word means. Those who are actually into programming (such as myself and apparently user_name as well) will have a lot more knowledge

And the sad part is that you actually seem to think that you're defending Wavedashing. WDing is not under attack here. No one is saying that it's bad. No one is saying that using a glitch is bad, or that exploiting it is bad, or anything like that. You don't have to argue endlessly just to stand up for the rights of competitive players or some other such crap.

What's being said is: It's a glitch.

user_name is right here. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. End of story. Get over yourselves. You wanna be Smash experts? Fine. But this isn't about Smash. This is about Programming. And we're the programming experts here, not you. I say this with confidence, because if you actually were an expert then you're either a very noobish one (noobspert? nexpert?) or you're an outright liar. In either case: shut up.

This isn't about your opinion. This is about cold hard facts. And the fact is that your facts are wrong.

Wavedashing is a glitch. You may not like the fact that it's a glitch. You may not feel comfortable with using a glitch to win (which is actually a very scrub-like attitude. It shouldn't even matter if it's a glitch or not. The only thing that should matter is that you can use it to help you and that's all there is to discuss.) And you might not like it when some ignorant noob complains about "waaah he beat me because I'm too lazy to learn how to wavedash" but...

No one is complaining.
I can wavedash.
It's still a glitch.
You don't even know what you're saying.

If you'd stop being so arrogant as to correct someone else when they're actually right, then you'd see that there's actually no reason for you to be fighting user_name for saying that. He used the correct terminology in its proper place with its proper meaning, and you're doing nothing but shouting at the top of your lungs that "IT'S NOT BLUE! IT'S CYAN!" when you're so **** colorblind that you don't even know that there isn't a difference.

 

[user_name]

...statement now 40 percent valid in my eyes...

...I would have just said it to be 0 percent valid...

...Traveling smashers defeat non-traveling smashers 99.99% of the time....

...a straight up console game that has to be 100% bug free before release....

I've noticed that this thread has boiled down to a lot of statistics and percentiles. Did you know that 89% of statistics and percentiles are made up on the spot? Heres a related graph:

Now, for your enjoyment, I'm going to reenact this thread:

A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
C: WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.



Also, for the record: It's a glitch. It's a glitch that should be legal in tournies. It's not broken, and doesn't stall the game. There's nothing wrong with using it, but it is a glitch. Now get over it.

 

[user_name]

Once again, the edit button isnt working, so I needed to make a new post:

You know.. the silly thing is that you're actually arrogant enough to think that you're self-gratifying opinion is somehow more important than the dictionary definitions of what a word means. You didn't make up the word glitch. Therefore: you don't get to define what the word means. Those who are actually into programming (such as myself and apparently user_name as well) will have a lot more knowledge

And the sad part is that you actually seem to think that you're defending Wavedashing. WDing is not under attack here. No one is saying that it's bad. No one is saying that using a glitch is bad, or that exploiting it is bad, or anything like that. You don't have to argue endlessly just to stand up for the rights of competitive players or some other such crap.

What's being said is: It's a glitch.

user_name is right here. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. End of story. Get over yourselves. You wanna be Smash experts? Fine. But this isn't about Smash. This is about Programming. And we're the programming experts here, not you. I say this with confidence, because if you actually were an expert then you're either a very noobish one (noobspert? nexpert?) or you're an outright liar. In either case: shut up.

This isn't about your opinion. This is about cold hard facts. And the fact is that your facts are wrong.

Wavedashing is a glitch. You may not like the fact that it's a glitch. You may not feel comfortable with using a glitch to win (which is actually a very scrub-like attitude. It shouldn't even matter if it's a glitch or not. The only thing that should matter is that you can use it to help you and that's all there is to discuss.) And you might not like it when some ignorant noob complains about "waaah he beat me because I'm too lazy to learn how to wavedash" but...

No one is complaining.
I can wavedash.
It's still a glitch.
You don't even know what you're saying.

If you'd stop being so arrogant as to correct someone else when they're actually right, then you'd see that there's actually no reason for you to be fighting user_name for saying that. He used the correct terminology in its proper place with its proper meaning, and you're doing nothing but shouting at the top of your lungs that "IT'S NOT BLUE! IT'S CYAN!" when you're so **** colorblind that you don't even know that there isn't a difference.

^what he said, and stuff, except I'm not going to assume someone's programing skill based off of a single non-programing-related discussion.

 

[RDK]

A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
C: WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.

^ That was stupid. Definetely not how it goes, at least when it comes to respectable competetive Smashers.

And define what you mean by "good" before you go spouting off unsound generalizations. No, casual Smashers can't be good when put up against someone who effectively uses advanced techniques. I don't see how this is even an argument.

 

[Eaode]

I've noticed that this thread has boiled down to a lot of statistics and percentiles. Did you know that 89% of statistics and percentiles are made up on the spot? Heres a related graph:

Now, for your enjoyment, I'm going to reenact this thread:

A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
C: WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.
A: Casual Smashers can be good.
B: No they cant.



Also, for the record: It's a glitch. It's a glitch that should be legal in tournies. It's not broken, and doesn't stall the game. There's nothing wrong with using it, but it is a glitch. Now get over it.

Haha, I'm C

But I still disagree with it being a glitch. Too lazy to debate right now