Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[DragonBlade]

Are people insecure enough about their play style to the point where they feel its necessary to criticize other people's play styles as if they were glitches and have unreasonable options? No one is forcing anyone to play a certain way, and I think its reasonable to accept the the same amount of respect in return. Sure tournaments have rigid rules, but thats more of a general consensus rather than some unchangeable decree.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Once again, theres the casual that doesn't even know wavedashing exists, and then theres the casual that knows it does, and doesn't care if people do it. That would then leave the casuals who whine about it, which would be the people your post was mostly aimed at and sadly targeted a few of the innocent casual as well. Which would be pointless since they know you all just don't play on FD with no items, wave dashing, etc etc, and just care to whine about your using advanced techniques. -dodges bullet from the programming battle ensuing behind him-

There still are the casuals who don't understand the logic of why not playing with items is more logical in terms of determining who has more skill in the game. The main point is the thread teaches the vast majority of the casuals something new.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Not any casuals have even attempted to refute the points in the orginal rant, silence is concession, so we win by default.

What and how exactly did you win? You made a point, were you expecting someone to try to prove you wrong and say there are no such thing as idiotic casuals who don't like how competitive players play? I doubt there is anyone dumb enough to make such a claim.

Drop the **** (why can't I say d-a-m-n?) wavedashing ****, please, and we need to make sure that the casuals are now informed that we don't just play on FD, and it's logical to play competitively with items.

I think you meant illogical, considering that was the point you made in your rant.

I don't think there is much that can be done to get the stereotypical, ignorant casuals or competitive elitists to change their minds.... if that is the goal then it's a waste of time XD

 

[Uchiharakiri]

You are what we call in the online FPS community a "Pub Allstar"

The pub allstar claims to have enormous amounts of skill but never backs it up competitively. All I've read so far about your skill is that you can beat your friend consistently. How do I or the rest of this board for that matter know he does not suck?

How can you rate your skill if you have never been to a tournament?

And you are what we call in the Internets community a "Video or it didn't happen." The video or didn't happen guy always brings up this argument when said person is unable to trust someone else's words on a matter they would lie about, or even a matter they wouldn't lie about. In this instance I am not lying when I believe myself to be good enough to beat your average casual player. By the way, you used a rather inflaming word in order to let your argument work for you. The words I refer to are "Enormous amounts of skill." if you would read back you would see that I never proclaimed myself to have some sort of God-like skill, in order for me to do that I would have to say something like "I can beat you even if I don't know you." or "I can one stock GimpyFish and Ken 1 vs 2". I never said any such manner of thing even close to those. All I said was I merely know myself to be good enough to wave dash, short hop, l cancel, dash grab, the list goes on and on, sufficiently well, that is all; nothing more nothing less.

I am afraid your use the "Pub Allstar" is far too easy to use for any situation or scenario including this one, where how much skill in relativity I have to someone else at best is only 20 percent relevant.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

There still are the casuals who don't understand the logic of why not playing with items is more logical in terms of determining who has more skill in the game. The main point is the thread teaches the vast majority of the casuals something new.

I think a lot of the casuals may be put off by the kind of tone you used in your opening post, I know I kind of was, I don't usually speak up unless I find something wrong; my post count is proof of that. But I do see what you're trying to say though, however ranty/angry it seemed. From what I saw, it was more aimed at the annoying whiners.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Everything in the original thread is true. Even if it is a little bias, just like Penn and Teller. And it's bias because generally in the comp vs. casual argument the competitive players win, because they know what they are talking about, BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY TRIED BOTH! It's like when the casuals say "what's fun with short hopping on FD with fox and falco doing advanced techniques!" My response is "why don't you try it, I used to play like you and now I don't." They don't have a counter argument because there isn't one, it's being close minded not to even try it, and day "it's cheating" just because you can't do it, or your too lazy to.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm a casual player (I've been to one tournament), and I don't really appreciate being lumped into the group of people that thinks unlocking everything makes you the best and that items are the only way to go and that wavedashing is evil. I don't wavedash (but I can) but I didn't really need it to keep up with the tournament people anyway. When I went to my first tournament, I was putting up a good fight against 'competitive' players (what's up with that term anyway, casual players can be 'competitive'), without wavedashing (I don't really think it's important if you don't use it). And also, I only play often against one person (my brother), but apparently my play style was good enough to keep up. What's my point? I don't really know, I just felt like responding to represent 'casual competitive' players.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Everything in the original thread is true. Even if it is a little bias, just like Penn and Teller. And it's bias because generally in the comp vs. casual argument the competitive players win, because they know what they are talking about, BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY TRIED BOTH! It's like when the casuals say "what's fun with short hopping on FD with fox and falco doing advanced techniques!" My response is "why don't you try it, I used to play like you and now I don't." They don't have a counter argument because there isn't one, it's being close minded not to even try it, and day "it's cheating" just because you can't do it, or your too lazy to.

Finally, a good point. You see that there is the distinction. There will be those who KNOW they can try it, they can get better with it, but are too lazy to do it and opt to just say you're cheating so as to feel better. BUT, there are those that will not even try it frankly because they don't care and have more fun doing it the other way, sure, they may be lazy and they possibly can't even do it; but they don't really care if someone else wave dashes. You just can't group them all into "casual" because there are good casuals and then there are just idiots, THAT is why you cannot be bias as to target a single "casual" entity, you must target the bad part of the casual scene, just like the tournament scene has a bad part.

What I'm trying to say is, those that are arguing in the first place, and don't have a counter argument; shouldn't be arguing at all, too many of those and your views will start to get sketched and skewed to the point you can't really tell hostility from non hostility when a casual says "I'd rather just play normally", because the one who says that may not even care about wave dashing or that anyone else does it at all, which is the sort of vibe I picked up from your post, y'see, including all the semi elitism.

 

[DraginHikari]

Well let my try at a more neutral standpoint then...

Quote:
The crux of this debate is that some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively. That's it. No one is asking the inverse, demanding that casual gamers play by their arbitrary set of rules. It is simply the anti-competitive crowd going out of their way to spite those who are better than them. Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?

Well I agree on that much, really in full honsety. I don't expect others to tell me how to play nor would I do the same for anyone else. Honsety, a real casual player doesn't give two hoots about this anyway.

For the misinformed, which includes most of the anti-competitive crowd, here are the standardized rules for Super Smash Bros. tournament play:
-4 Stock, 8 Minutes, Team Damage, No Items
-Both players choose one stage to ban for the set
-Both players pick characters at same time and go randomly to one of the six "neutral" stages.
-The loser determines the next stage to go to, from almost all of them. The loser also picks character second.
-Best out of three wins

Obviously, we have to talk about items. Items add luck to the game, period. If a good item appears next to you, you very well could instantly win. If a bomb or exploding container appears in front of your attack, you very well could instantly lose. Players don't like having their skill nullified by luck in a competition. Players enter tournaments to pit their skill against their opponent's, not to gamble. Items benefit top-tier characters more, period. It only widens the gap between characters. Most the high tier characters are fast and/or very aerial, giving them a massive advantage in obtaining items on the stage. Some people say that items were meant to balance the game, claiming that characters like Mewtwo and Pikachu were designed as item gods, and their low tier positions are due to items being banned. This is bull****. If an item spawns directly between Pikachu and Shiek, who will get to it first? Fox and Falco, two of the top characters, even have their reflectors to give them the upper hand even when their opponent has the items! Are you saying they need MORE advantages?

Once again I don't really disagree with this point, Items are lucky shots often times. And even as a casual sometimes I don't play with items either it simply depends on what I'm interested in. However, sometimes it's just fun to screw around with the items on, that's what they're pretty much there for. For a few extra kicks along with the rest of what Smash has to offer.

If you want to play competitively with items, go ahead. Make your own tournament. Tournaments are organized by players, not people who own stores. Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. Tourneys do not play with items because the people attending them don't want to, not because some evil tourney director is making them.

I wouldn't necessary say no one would show up to one. The term tournment is a rather loose term at best. From what I understand you are referring to the Money Prize type that sounds common around here. I have seen many tournments that play by that method for just fun or community events sometimes. Also another point I've recalled posted before is that it was a few years into Melee before items became overall banned, forgive me if that isn't exactly right.

Next stages. Hyrule Temple sucks, ok? Let's get that out of the way first. The bottom zone makes it almost pure luck as to who kills who first, giving certain characters huge advantages and leading to REALLY long matches. If you want to organize a Hyrule Temple tourney, go ahead, no one will show up. The only other stages that are banned are ridiculous ones like Super Flat Zone that no one ever likes anyway.

Says a stage sucks because you don't like it kind of comes off as a biased statment really. My brother and our friends like to play Hyrule temple and see how long we can drag out a match. I will admit that it's obiviously not the type of stage for prize money. I get that much. As before, I don't think that absolutely no one would want to play in Hyrule Temple if there wasn't anything huge on the line as I stated before.

Now then... The six "neutral stages." People act like tournaments only play on Final Destination, which is ridiculous, since it's only one of the six default stages even, and it's typically banned by a player if their opponent has a good Falco. Some tournaments even play with something called "Dave's stupid rule", which states that no stage can be played twice in a set of matches. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, and Dream Land all receive just as much play as Final Destination, if not more. And those are only the initial stages! The other counter-pick stages just aren't included on Random so you don't get some ridiculous random match-up like fighting Peach or Jigglypuff on Mute City.

That is simply the ignorance of ignorant people. Not all Casual are that naive when it came to that issue. I just think alot of bad taste is being spread around by the defensive and offensive behavior of a small group.

So why are there so many people who think tournaments are the scourge of Smash? It's simple really. Every fighting game suffers from this to some degree, but it has hit the Smash community particularly hard due to its "easy to learn, impossible to master" nature: Everyone and their dog thinks they are great at Smash, some are, but most suck. People seem to get the idea that just because they've unlocked all the stages and characters, that they are true masters of the game. Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing.

Hmm... this is where your point gets a little less understanding. It's not really a bad viewpoint more then the way you're displaying it. I'm aware I can't beat a tournment player. But I'm not going to whine about it either. If someone plays a game far more then I do and can do more combos and tricks, I expect I'm going to lose to them it's not hard to figure out. However, you make it sound like that all casuals are like that, and that's why it comming off bad to those casual that seem to get strangely defenseive. The truth is I tend to suck at fighting games in general due to coorination problems I have with fine motor skills but at the same time I have no desire to be told that I do.

So next time you get beaten by an advanced player ask for some advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches (PROTIP: they're not glitches). The game is supposed to be played on Hyrule Temple with full items." It's not like advanced players are in some secret club, and are determined to keep these techniques hidden from you just to maintain an advantage. With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you. Furthermore, it's not even that hard to learn them. In only a couple hours you can learn to wave dash, a couple more and you can learn to L-cancel. From there it's just a matter of practice until you can incorporate them into your game.


So what do casual players have to complain about? Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game, and they don't want to put forth the effort to become better themselves. That's it. The can claim otherwise all day, but that's it.

The funny thing I pointed out in another thread is that the majority of casual here are not really casuals at all. Most of those here are mostly middle of the line most of the time, I suppose I fit into that area as well. A real casual doesn't tend to even know about what's going on in the competitive scene nor do they really care. Heck, I personally didn't know about Wavedashing until about a year back. I owned Melee about one year after it's release. The biggest issue I'm having with the debate is general is that alot generalization with the term Casual, which compared to those on the forum you refer to as 'scrubs' which sounds like a rather insultive term anyway if I might add, doesn't really represent the casual community in the least bit.

As I've said before I have no problem with tournments or competitive players and I wouldn't mind playing a few of you one day really. To those 'casual' which continue to press the issue just let it go. And as far as the Competitve, sometimes the best thing to do is ignore a troll anyway.

 

[Blacktastic]

I just spent an hour or so reading all this and I must say this thread is full of win. If anything, it needs to be stickied as it not only gives MANY informative viewpoints on Wavedashing, the definition of a glitch, and the competitive scene, but you even get some concept of "playing to win" in action.

 

[RetroRhythm]

For the last time, [size=+4]wavedashing is not a glitch[/size].

Until someone can provide contrary evidence, the wavedash is at worst a game exploit. Of course the creators probably did not intend for this to happen, but that does not make it cheating. A glitch implies that the game falls outside its normal bounds of proper function. No such thing occurs with wavedashing.

If items are meant to be part of the game, why do they have an off switch? Obviously, Sakurai wanted the game to be played however we want.

YES IT IS!

Exploits=Glitches. WHY? how can something be a glitch without someone uncovering it? Exploit is just a fancy word for glitch.

I can use big words too yo.

 

[LavisFiend]

Here's an idea:

How about we try and find new things to gripe at each other about and quit waving around a flag of what we are and instead discuss the game as SMASHERS and not as Casual and Competitive?

and Wavedashing arguments fail automatically because ya'll are *****ing about a technique that is in **** Melee, and Brawl is clearly not operating with the same engine...

Get over yourselves.

P.S. Hypnotist isn't saying anything special at all; it has been said to death already and like the other threads that tried to do what he is doing, needs to be locked.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Here's an idea:

How about we try and find new things to gripe at each other about and quit waving around a flag of what we are and instead discuss the game as SMASHERS and not as Casual and Competitive?

and Wavedashing arguments fail automatically because ya'll are *****ing about a technique that is in **** Melee, and Brawl is clearly not operating with the same engine...

Get over yourselves.

P.S. Hypnotist isn't saying anything special at all; it has been said to death already and like the other threads that tried to do what he is doing, needs to be locked.

Your aggressiveness just reminded me how everyone on Smashboards will be able to challenge just about anyone else to a match online if the person pisses them off or says they're better than them.........man those are going to be some fun times........hey Lavis, you talk pretty tough, can you fight it, huh, huh, want to be my Wii Friend?!??!?!?

 

[Chi's Finest]

Thread creator=fail at life

Can we please stop with all this bashing casuals thing? And I thought GoW was bad. Even when I was n MLG for Gears of War, the competitive players would talk trash to people who weren't that good online or did certain things, but NEVER to the extent that it is done on these boards.

It's one thing to say that you can probably beat a casual player in a match, but you need to stop complaining about how they like to play. Let them play the game the way they want, that's why they are considered a casual player, because they play it causally!

If someone wants to play with items on Hyrule Temple and as someone besides top tier, LET THEM.

For the record, I wouldn't consider myself casual, but I haven't atteneded any tournaments. I can wavedash effectively, shffl, l cancel, etc. I play 1 on 1's with no items. BUT IT IS FUN to play 2v2 with all Pokeballs on Dream Land or something.

"God I hate all these people that don't play with the exact style as me" Get off you high horse people.

And just for the record, WDing is a glitch. I'm noying that because I'm bad at the game and don't know how to do it or something, it just is.

And as long as I'm adding facts to the end of my post, for the millionth time, Sakurai saying Ness isn't in Brawl= NESS DECONFIRMED!

 

[LavisFiend]

Your aggressiveness just reminded me how everyone on Smashboards will be able to challenge just about anyone else to a match online if the person pisses them off or says they're better than them.........man those are going to be some fun times........hey Lavis, you talk pretty tough, can you fight it, huh, huh, want to be my Wii Friend?!??!?!?

....

*scratches head

I...never said I was better than anybody?

and it dosen't matter; I won't be able to play online because I am on satellite internet...

Thanks for reminding me about that you jerk.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

....

*scratches head

I...never said I was better than anybody?

and it dosen't matter; I won't be able to play online because I am on satellite internet...

Thanks for reminding me about that you jerk.

Satellite internet, oh my lol what form of archaic connectivity is this!? Those who actually have a connection, trash talk and are crappy better start thinking up their excuses to not go online and fight. Too bad though Lavis, I'd be all like "I am Yu-Law....I am nobody's *****!, you, are all my *****es, here's my friend code!!!!"

I added the friend code part.



....It's from the movie The One with Jet Li.

 

[LavisFiend]

Satellite internet, oh my lol what form of archaic connectivity is this!? Those who actually have a connection, trash talk and are crappy better start thinking up their excuses to not go online and fight. Too bad though Lavis, I'd be all like "I am Yu-Law....I am nobody's *****!, you, are all my *****es, here's my friend code!!!!"

I added the friend code part.



....It's from the movie The One with Jet Li.

...It is not an excuse...?

I have no reason to lie, I really do have Satellite Internet. Not everyone is capable of getting DSL/Cable in their area you know? I live in the boondocks so to speak...

but yea, I recognized that line. XD Kiss of the Dragon was better though.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Hope this makes sense...

Oh, come on, why did wavedashing discussion have to show its ugly head here?

And the Hypnotist, even if you are mostly right, do you realize that the tone of many of your posts tend to make you sound unnecesarily unpleasant? There are many ways to say the same thing. Not to sound like an *** myself, but perhaps if it was worded differently, it wouldn't spawn these annoying discussions. This also applies to many members who, while posting generally intelligent arguments, just can't seem to control their attitude. I may be exaggerating a bit, but some patience and modesty are always useful. Take this as friendly advice. Asking to sticky your opinion and declaring that you won an inexistent argument in the middle just didn't help.

If this seemed like i was attacking you, or that i just disliked you, i apologize: it isn't the case. It's just that while i agree that many casual players (being a casual myself) can be very annoying and illogical, they are a minority, they probably won't change their opinions until they mature a bit, and in that sense, making threads like this aimed to "fix" them is a major waste of time, and only generates more pointless discussion.

Just know that casuals who, like me, have some common sense and logic, DO understand the reasons of competitive play and -at least me- are alright with them as they don't have any kind of incidence in the way we like to play at home.

 

[FireWater]

With regards to the topic about glitches, not all glitches are equal.

For example, in Quake it was acceptable to bunnyhop or strafe jump, many players saw this as an exploit or bug, but the developers thought it was brilliant.

Another glitch would be white walls in early versions of counter strike. White Walls would sometimes show the enemy model through the wall and was not a 3rd party hack, it was done exploiting some variables in the game.

The white walls glitch was later removed from the game, bunnyhopping in quake is still the same.

The difficulty with Smash Bros Melee is that there is no hard drive for nintendo to release patches to. Its a straight up console game that has to be 100% bug free before release.

That being said, all of the engine exploits that are in the game cannot be removed. Given the nature of smash, and how fast it is it would be impossible to impose a ruleset that cannot become a "hard rule" (i.e. banning certain characters or stages), but only soft ones (you can use this character, but you can't do X Y and Z).

Whether WaveDash is a bug or not really is not that important. What is important is that it is not game breaking. If tournament play banned wavedashing or l-canceling, you would have more matches won by rules lawyering over matches won by actual talent and skill.

Casual players should understand this point and either accept it, or move on as there is no changing (especially so late in the game's life).

 

[The Hypnotist]

Thread creator=fail at life

Can we please stop with all this bashing casuals thing? And I thought GoW was bad. Even when I was n MLG for Gears of War, the competitive players would talk trash to people who weren't that good online or did certain things, but NEVER to the extent that it is done on these boards.

It's one thing to say that you can probably beat a casual player in a match, but you need to stop complaining about how they like to play. Let them play the game the way they want, that's why they are considered a casual player, because they play it causally!

If someone wants to play with items on Hyrule Temple and as someone besides top tier, LET THEM.

For the record, I wouldn't consider myself casual, but I haven't atteneded any tournaments. I can wavedash effectively, shffl, l cancel, etc. I play 1 on 1's with no items. BUT IT IS FUN to play 2v2 with all Pokeballs on Dream Land or something.

"God I hate all these people that don't play with the exact style as me" Get off you high horse people.

And just for the record, WDing is a glitch. I'm noying that because I'm bad at the game and don't know how to do it or something, it just is.

And as long as I'm adding facts to the end of my post, for the millionth time, Sakurai saying Ness isn't in Brawl= NESS DECONFIRMED!

You readc the post wrong, we never said if you don't play competitive you are a bad person, we said if you play casually your most likely not good at the game and when you get beat by us not to complain because we are better at the game, the thread also informed many people about how tourneys actually worked and it explained why items aren't used and those points can't really be countered.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I expect this thread to be closed, it's just like every other before it. Now with that out of the way...my response!

Yes, sadly I read through all of that so I'll just respond to a few excerpts I found most thralling.

1. "Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?"

SSBM in tournaments is usually played without items. The game itself was originally intended by Our Lord God Sakurai Himself to be played with items, if not; originally they would not have been there. To that I can only say, nobody killed Sakurai, he's still the king, and he says the game was originally intended to be played with items, no matter what you possibly say about the game being better for tournaments without items, no discussion. The game however is still intended as well to be played without items with the emergence of the tourney scene, it still stands that the people who you perceive to be "whining" are only speaking a truth no matter how much they use it to cover whatever ineptitude you see from them.

2. "With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you."

You confirm in this quote of yours elitist douchebags exist with "With the exception of a few rare". Thusly because of this the notion of elitism in the Smash community is not false and is a very real thing, no matter how few or many people are such. I will also add my two cents and now label you an elitist because of your quote outlined in number 2. I will also add that just the same there are elitists in Smash, so as well are there those you call whiny and annoying noobs who particularly apparently don't want to try and "embetter" themselves. We are at a cross roads now, do you believe there to be more whiny annoying noobs than there are elitist douchebags, or do you think there are just about the same number of them, or are there less? Depending on your answer, you will either have had no reason to start this thread, for example, if there are as many annoying whiny noobs as there are elitists, why post at all, I could BEGIN to understand why you would post if there were more annoying whiny noobs; but I do not believe there are. "So why are there so many people that think tournaments are the scourge of Smash?", well, friend; there aren't that many people that think tournaments are the scourge of Smash. I'll give a humble guess and say there are about as many as there are elitist douchebags.

3. "Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. "

See kids here is an example of elitism, "no one wants to play competitively with items". My friend and I always play with items on Battlefield, and we are much better than your average run off the mill "noob". And I still win most my battles bar none, predominantly, I have been winning much more than he, items don't seem to be helping him -too- much. When you say such a thing with an absolute terminology such as "no one" you effectively try to say literally no one does, while I, a well skilled Smasher, do. I am humble and never would do such, and you are not, you are elitist.

4. "Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing."

It seems that the whiny annoying noobs have made you become angry and bitter towards not only them but casual yet skilled players such as me, as I have found quite a few offensive and frankly, annoying and elitist sounding comments from you. Sorry dude but that's just the way it is.

5. " Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game"

You basically just said "This person doesn't like me because I'm better than them.". I will now give you a situation in...lets say, school, where this would conceivably be said. Okay, now take into your mind a popular, and arguably snobby and pretentious cheerleader, looking at a gothic but deep down nice kid. She will say "That kid doesn't like me because I'm better than them." And the gothic kid who his nice and doesn't judge on appearances alone will hear this, and finally think; with the evidence at hand... "What a pretentious elitist *****.". Basically what I'm trying to say is, don't let other people's angers(the idiots) or ways(actual casual nice players) make you ever say such a thing, because once you do; you WILL become that thing.

Any matter, in closing...I love Hyrule Temple. Once in Final Battle I was fighting my friend as Pichu and he was Fox, I had picked up a bob-omb, faked as if to throw it at him and he like an idiot freaked, turned reflecter on. L-canceled my jump, threw the bob-omb into the air, dash grabbed him out of his reflector, did Pichu's back throw, and ended up throwing him down into the falling bob-omb. Epic, you can't get that kind of stuff in Tournaments. Also, mods, I ask you deep from my heart like the creator did and close this thread, it's the same as every other one before it ever.

"Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important."

I mean really...sticky?!...wow.

*roaring applause!* Great reply! /support

 

[Darqion]

All i`ll add is that a true!! casual will just look at this and laugh

Trying so hard to get your point across is one of the first signs of someone thinking THEY are right.. elitism at its prime

the second you came on this board, you were no longer a casual player unless you really did not have a clue how to jump , asked, and had left these boards forever.

The second you even glimsped at a tier list, or an advanced teach, the second the idea of how to improve your game enters your brain, you are no longer casual. i play chess casually.. i know what the pieces can do, and i try to slap a king.. the end. thats casual

So really this MIGHT be about tournament players who just werent good enough, but not, in any way, about casuals

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm a casual player (I've been to one tournament), and I don't really appreciate being lumped into the group of people that thinks unlocking everything makes you the best and that items are the only way to go and that wavedashing is evil. I don't wavedash (but I can) but I didn't really need it to keep up with the tournament people anyway. When I went to my first tournament, I was putting up a good fight against 'competitive' players (what's up with that term anyway, casual players can be 'competitive'), without wavedashing (I don't really think it's important if you don't use it). And also, I only play often against one person (my brother), but apparently my play style was good enough to keep up. What's my point? I don't really know, I just felt like responding to represent 'casual competitive' players.

What tournament (and what players) and what constitutes a "good fight". Usually when I run into a newer player at a tournament I'll switched to one of my less developed characters and **** around so we can both have fun. Shrug.

I'll give a humble guess and say there are about as many as there are elitist douchebags.

Heres the thing, can you even name...5 elitist douchebags. Just 5? I could scroll through the Brawl forums and in about ten minutes find 5 examples of people who should read this thread (or go check out meet and greet if you want to laugh). Usually, the "elitist douchebags" are new to competitive Smash as well. Dylan T I guess is or was an elitist. I guess you could say I am, but I never advocate that others should play by tournaments rules or that it isn't fun to use items, I'm simply an advocate for one, simple truth: the competitive Smashers are better at the game than casual Smashers, with or without items, on Hyrule or on FD, in an FFA or in 1v1. This point though, when stated, makes me look elitist (just like someone thought I was bragging when I talked about winning a tournament against casual players. They were casual. I'm competitive. Its expected that I win) .

Why are there more elitist casuals than elitist competitive players? I explained it to my girlfriend last night and she also had an anology for her question.

She said, "Isn't the problem like comparing normal drivers to NASCAR drivers. I would still say that I'm a good driver even though I can't compete in NASCAR. They are two different aspects of driving."

To which I replied "You're completely correct, but the problem is many of these normal drivers believe they can compete with the NASCAR drivers. "

"What? Thats just being stupid" she said.

"I know, but its a common property in Smash when players usually only play within a small cell of 5 or 6 people. The top players within these cells often assume they have some sort of gift at the game that would still translate even when playing against a competitive player. " I explained.

"Come to think of it, yea, there are a lot of guys who think they can compete in NASCAR." She said, laughing.

So, why are there more "casual elitists" than competitive? Every competitive player was once a casual player, meaning that casual players therefor generate competitive players. In a numbers game, if 10% of a given community is elitist, then of the 80,000 Smashboards members, 8,000 are elitist, of the 5-6 million casual player, 500-600 thousand are elitist. These are made up numbers, but the point should be clear.

Smashboards itself, while open to all and a place to discuss any aspect of play, has traditionally been a haven for players who want to compete in tournaments. This debate never really existed until after Brawl was announced, when a flood of new members decided to bring what they thought were new or ground breaking opinions here while they were surfing for more Brawl news. Competitive players have always been happy with themselves, the same is not true for casuals because the skill gap causes frustration and attemps at justification (example: "I could compete with a competitive player if they turned items on" or "I'm a competitive casual player, so I know I could stack up the same in a tournament as I could with my friends who I play with every saturday". It is a rare feet to ever see any of the really, really good players post in this the Brawl rooms, simply because they don't care, they attend tournaments, and for them, thats where Smash is at. Think briefly, have you ever seen Ken, PC Chris, Isai, ChuDat, KoreanDJ, or just about everyone considered in the top 10, top 20, or top 50 in the country post in here? Mew2king made a thread once. Thats about it. Here are, off the top of my head, some of the more competent (sp?) competitive players that post in here: Gimpy, Sliq, Buzz...****...I'm starting to run out of names. You see my point. All this "competitive elitism" isn't driven by real or high quality competitive players, in fact, I have almost no idea where the idea that there could be the same number of competitive elitists as casual ones even comes from, there evidence is simply NOT there.

 

[GreenKirby]

I read it. And it's good. But what's with the WOP (cause it means without papers)

Isn't that an offensive term for European immigrants who are not Britain, France, or Germany.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

AlphaZealot summed up much of what I wanted to express regarding all this casual vs competitive stuff.

As for the wavedashing discussion, I really wish people would stop popping into the thread, stating "wavedash is a glitch; get over it", and leaving. That is not discussion. That is idiotic elitism. "It is this way because I said so." I have factual proof as to why wavedashing is not a glitch. I am a computer science major. I have been in software development for over 10 years, so I am pretty sure I know what a glitch is, so I would appreciate it if others stopped attempting to reinvent the definition.

http://roabs.blogspot.com/2007/11/wavedash-is-still-not-glitch.html

 

[YoukoisaHOMO]

BTW, this isn't my epic rant, what is posted in blue after the rant will be all mine though. I know there's been a lot of this, but I honestly think that all of my fellow smashers need to read this. Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important.

EVERYONE, PARTICULARLY CASUALS PLEASE READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING. DON'T EVEN BOTHER RESPOND IF YOU DON'T READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!

Quote:
The crux of this debate is that some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively. That's it. No one is asking the inverse, demanding that casual gamers play by their arbitrary set of rules. It is simply the anti-competitive crowd going out of their way to spite those who are better than them. Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?

For the misinformed, which includes most of the anti-competitive crowd, here are the standardized rules for Super Smash Bros. tournament play:
-4 Stock, 8 Minutes, Team Damage, No Items
-Both players choose one stage to ban for the set
-Both players pick characters at same time and go randomly to one of the six "neutral" stages.
-The loser determines the next stage to go to, from almost all of them. The loser also picks character second.
-Best out of three wins

Obviously, we have to talk about items. Items add luck to the game, period. If a good item appears next to you, you very well could instantly win. If a bomb or exploding container appears in front of your attack, you very well could instantly lose. Players don't like having their skill nullified by luck in a competition. Players enter tournaments to pit their skill against their opponent's, not to gamble. Items benefit top-tier characters more, period. It only widens the gap between characters. Most the high tier characters are fast and/or very aerial, giving them a massive advantage in obtaining items on the stage. Some people say that items were meant to balance the game, claiming that characters like Mewtwo and Pikachu were designed as item gods, and their low tier positions are due to items being banned. This is bull****. If an item spawns directly between Pikachu and Shiek, who will get to it first? Fox and Falco, two of the top characters, even have their reflectors to give them the upper hand even when their opponent has the items! Are you saying they need MORE advantages?

If you want to play competitively with items, go ahead. Make your own tournament. Tournaments are organized by players, not people who own stores. Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. Tourneys do not play with items because the people attending them don't want to, not because some evil tourney director is making them.

Next stages. Hyrule Temple sucks, ok? Let's get that out of the way first. The bottom zone makes it almost pure luck as to who kills who first, giving certain characters huge advantages and leading to REALLY long matches. If you want to organize a Hyrule Temple tourney, go ahead, no one will show up. The only other stages that are banned are ridiculous ones like Super Flat Zone that no one ever likes anyway.

Now then... The six "neutral stages." People act like tournaments only play on Final Destination, which is ridiculous, since it's only one of the six default stages even, and it's typically banned by a player if their opponent has a good Falco. Some tournaments even play with something called "Dave's stupid rule", which states that no stage can be played twice in a set of matches. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, and Dream Land all receive just as much play as Final Destination, if not more. And those are only the initial stages! The other counter-pick stages just aren't included on Random so you don't get some ridiculous random match-up like fighting Peach or Jigglypuff on Mute City.

So why are there so many people who think tournaments are the scourge of Smash? It's simple really. Every fighting game suffers from this to some degree, but it has hit the Smash community particularly hard due to its "easy to learn, impossible to master" nature: Everyone and their dog thinks they are great at Smash, some are, but most suck. People seem to get the idea that just because they've unlocked all the stages and characters, that they are true masters of the game. Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing.

So next time you get beaten by an advanced player ask for some advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches (PROTIP: they're not glitches). The game is supposed to be played on Hyrule Temple with full items." It's not like advanced players are in some secret club, and are determined to keep these techniques hidden from you just to maintain an advantage. With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you. Furthermore, it's not even that hard to learn them. In only a couple hours you can learn to wave dash, a couple more and you can learn to L-cancel. From there it's just a matter of practice until you can incorporate them into your game.

So what do casual players have to complain about? Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game, and they don't want to put forth the effort to become better themselves. That's it. The can claim otherwise all day, but that's it.


Also. just some statements by myself that everyone should read...

The term newbs is not negative, it just simply means a novice player. Do some research on wavedashing and don't complain about it if you don't even know what it is. Don't expect items to be in tournaments in Brawl, it's very unlikley. Like most players I am willing to play anyone, and teach them to play with advanced techniques, they aren't secrets. Don't expect that just because wavedashing isn't in Brawl there will not be a gap between competitive and casual players. This should be the last thread about this argument.

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's responses and again, please do not even attempt to respond if you don't read the thread, and mods I ask you with my heart, please don't close this thread.

OMG, anybody who actually bored and read all those umm letters?

 

[DraginHikari]

I guess my last question I meant to add on to my last post here but forgot was this:

Why does everyone care so much? Why does it seem to matter to everyone so much that they be right and the other side be wrong? And I am talking about both sides when I say this. If people believe this group is too ignorant to reason with, why take all the effort and energy here to do it?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Why does everyone care so much? Why does it seem to matter to everyone so much that they be right and the other side be wrong? And I am talking about both sides when I say this. If people believe this group is too ignorant to reason with, why take all the effort and energy here to do it?

I think people who eat food are noobs at life, and if they had true skill, they would chew on their shoes and suck the nutrients out of the leather to stay alive.

Respond.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Okay, before I'm gonna start my arguments: For anyone who wants to know my skill, I've so far only been to one tournament with "official rules", it had 16 entrants, I made it past the first round, got knocked out in the second round.
The highest skilled player I've ever beaten in a friendly is probably Yomi-no-Kuni with his main character Sheik, the smashwiki lists him as Pro-Am, but since he owned me 7 times and I owned him only 2, I guess that would make me still an Amateur but very slowly on my way to Pro-Am.
I don't think I can get any more indepth a bout my skill level than this...

Now. There have been various of these threads lately and it seems to be a new trend.
While I initially applauded these threads, and still applaud the first ones, I don't put this one on a pedestal.
First of, the original post, while having very good arguments (some I completely agree with) and obviously being thought out, is rather one-sided.
Even if unintentional, the way the words are formulated makes it seems as if competetive players nearly never are jerks or whiners... Funny, because I remember Mew2King whining about wavedashing being gone in Brawl...

No this does not mean I disrespect Mew2King's playstyle, not at all, let me clarify that before anyone tries to get me at this. I highly respect and look up to Mew2King as a player, but whine he did... Yes he did... And he's supposed to be one of the best.

There even has been one or several threads where various competetive players said something along the lines of: "OMG! Sakurai removed Wavedashing! Thanks a lot you n00bs! Hope you're happy now!! This is gonna bridge the gap between noobs and pro's *crymoar*"

So yeah... the inverse 'does' happen, I've seen it happen on these very boards.

Also, should it EVEN MATTER whether wavedashing is a glitch or not? Does it require skill? Yes. What is this thread about? Two certain groups of players divided by their skill level and how much they whine.

To all casual whiners (not the casual players who don't whine): Yes this does mean that it does NOT matter if wavedashing is a glitch or not! It requires skill to do regardless of that!

To all competetive whiners (again, not the ones who don't whine): Are the casual whiners invading your tournaments and pointing guns at everyone's heads until you change the rules and play with items on on hyrule temple? No they're not, and whining about how you dislike whiners is only gonna make you look like a contradictive hypocritical fool.

"But Banana_Dragon... aren't you... right now... like... whining about players who whine about how they disllike whiners?"
Yes I am! ANNOYING, ISN'T IT? I hope this illustrates my point...

Neither side are better people than the other. Competetive players are, yes, generally "way" higher in skill than casual players. No this does not mean that casual players can't be phenomenally good, it's just rarer and harder. No this does not make competetive players better people and no this does not make casuals "phail at life, lawlz".
It would be like saying that pro tennis players are great people and everyone who can't play tennis is bad at life.

What do I consider myself? Competetive yes, with unfortunately a lack of tournaments in my area and unfortunately a lack of smashers to play against. I will be attending Xmash Fest in Switzerland soon as well as Epita in France. I don't expect to claim first place but I'm gonna try and try to be the best.
I do wavedash, I do l-cancel, I do short hop, I am starting to focus more on DI and do try to implement what I see in combo video's and pro matches.

There's people who wanna be good at smash and people who play it for fun and people in between... Simple as that. And both sides should stop bashing on each other.
Bashing on casuals on noobs doesn't make you any better than them and the other way around, bashing on competetive players because they use a technique that requires skill that they obviously have more than you only makes you seem like a major ******.

I'm not attacking anyone personally here (no, not even Mew2King I was just using him as an example since people where probably gonna ask me for one anyway) I'm attacking the "trend" that is this behavior and attitude lately.

Thanks for reading if anyone bothered...

EDIT: Buzz, I love your last post... I see what you did there and it's pure win... lol. (Doesn't mean I agree with all of your posts though, obviously, but I can agree to disagree with you, you're a cool guy *thumbs up*)

 

[DraginHikari]

I think people who eat food are noobs at life, and if they had true skill, they would chew on their shoes and suck the nutrients out of the leather to stay alive.

Respond.

If you find me someone who can survive on Shoe Leather and enjoy it let me know

 

[SeriousWB]

Great post Banana Dragon

 

[MookieRah]

Thats about it. Here are, off the top of my head, some of the more competent (sp?) competitive players that post in here: Gimpy, Sliq, Buzz...****...I'm starting to run out of names.

Alpha, you just made me cry a little on the inside :-(.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Alpha, you just made me cry a little on the inside :-(.

He said he is starting to run out of names, which means he hasn't yet. We love ya, Mookie.

 

[Nintendude]

YES IT IS!

Exploits=Glitches. WHY? how can something be a glitch without someone uncovering it? Exploit is just a fancy word for glitch.

I can use big words too yo.

Just because something is unintentional doesn't mean it is a glitch. Do you think Marth's ability to 0-death Falco with a chaingrab, juggle, and tipper was intended? Do you think the Ice Climbers chaingrab was intended? I highly doubt it. But you know what? Both are just using normal aspects of the game in unforseen ways. The EXACT same thing can be said of wavedashing.

 

[Eaode]

First of all OBJECTION!

Second of all, although this thread makes some good points and tries to address these issues properly, The Hypnotist I have seen before to be, if not a tad elitist, a little loose with his temper toward casuals. I see his points, but the overall tone and some small details of his post seem to undermine his argument.


How about, ALL OF US, just STOP *****ING AT EACHOTHER,

Casuals will never get us to play differently,

And Competitives will never et Casuals to think differently,


So just keep it to yourselves and PLAY THE ****ING GAME

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

First of all OBJECTION!

Second of all, although this thread makes some good points and tries to address these issues properly, The Hypnotist I have seen before to be, if not a tad elitist, a little loose with his temper toward casuals. I see his points, but the overall tone and some small details of his post seem to undermine his argument.


How about, ALL OF US, just STOP *****ING AT EACHOTHER,

Casuals will never get us to play differently,

And Competitives will never et Casuals to think differently,


So just keep it to yourselves and PLAY THE ****ING GAME

The only reason these type of threads ever arise is casual players attacking the competitive scene. They feel violated since they have to share the same Wi-Fi space as competitive players. It all started with Brawl hype being built up. They feel they have the right to dictate the rules to us and how we ought to behave if our paths ever cross. Everything was fine until they came around and started picking away at the tournament scene logic.

So, I agree with you that we should all just get along. Get the casual players to shut up, accept that wavedashing is not a glitch, accept that items have an off-switch, accept that they don't know Sakurai's intentions, etc. As noted in AlphaZealot's post, competitive elitists are truly few and far between. These casual elitists are responsible for ALL of this.

 

[Eaode]

The only reason these type of threads ever arise is casual players attacking the competitive scene. They feel violated since they have to share the same Wi-Fi space as competitive players. It all started with Brawl hype being built up. They feel they have the right to dictate the rules to us and how we ought to behave if our paths ever cross. Everything was fine until they came around and started picking away at the tournament scene logic.

So, I agree with you that we should all just get along. Get the casual players to shut up, accept that wavedashing is not a glitch, accept that items have an off-switch, accept that they don't know Sakurai's intentions, etc. As noted in AlphaZealot's post, competitive elitists are truly few and far between. These casual elitists are responsible for ALL of this.

Yeah, I used to really get into these threads and try to reason with people, but they come up so often and they are so many new casual elitists that I don't really bother anymore. Glad to see some people do though

 

[flyinfilipino]

They feel violated since they have to share the same Wi-Fi space as competitive players.

Sorry, I have to pick on this. A lot of 'competitive' players whine that they have to share Wi-fi with a bunch of 'n00bs'.

 

[Nintendude]

Sorry, I have to pick on this. A lot of 'competitive' players whine that they have to share Wi-fi with a bunch of 'n00bs'.

Since when? Mind quoting someone who actually said that?

 

[Eaode]

Sorry, I have to pick on this. A lot of 'competitive' players whine that they have to share Wi-fi with a bunch of 'n00bs'.

Define "A lot"

Almost all Competitive players realize "With Anyone" is a waste of time, and will just use FC's with people they know are good.