Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[5150]

What make Isai so great is he has devoted a lot of time to it, Very few have the option to put as much time into the game unless you are a pro.

WRONG AGAIN. melee is not an rpg. it's because he's played so many people and he has such crazy mindgames and technical talent. but he learned mindgames by playing so many people and learning how to exploit the most amount of people with types of mindgames. you can't learn that from playing 2-3 friends. you will be able to exploit their 1-3 mistakes, but what happens when you need to play someone who doesnt make those same mistakes? you're ****ing done.

the ONLY person to win a tournament with little to no experience was ken and the way he won it was by introducing dash dancing to the game.

 

[Banana_Dragon]

Yeah, I think I've said everything I wanted to say here a long time ago anyway.
And I probably overstayed my welcome anyway

Just for the record, not all of the opinions I expressed in this thread are mine (some are), I simply wanted to have an intelligent discussion, somewhat-related to the topic going than yet another wavedash discussion.

Basically to sum this thread up:
- Tourneys are the fastest way to get better and the most efficient
- There's both casual elitists and competetive elitists and they can both be jerks
- People post too fast
- The wavedash debate will never end

 

[tddavis]

It's not just time. It is the quality of training you get out of your time as well. You can't get the same amount of diversity and techniques from a small group as you can from a large group. It's really really simple really.

agreed thats exactly what I am saying you will become better faster because of the huge variety of style and skill presented at a tournament. I am referring to keeping yourself constantly challenged thats the kind of environment required. I am not suggesting anyone can get good by playing AI, Video Game AI is really stupid they are not intelligent by any means despite their name.

 

[5150]

- The wavedash debate will never end

it never was a debate. it was hubris scrubs trying to compensate for their lack of will, skill, and knowledge.

 

[5150]

agreed thats exactly what I am saying you will become better faster because of the huge variety of style and skill presented at a tournament. I am referring to keeping yourself constantly challenged thats the kind of environment required. I am not suggesting anyone can get good by playing AI, Video Game AI is really stupid they are not intelligent by any means despite their name.

you just posted before that just playing your friends was good enough to be good at this game. dont try to backtrack. either admit you were wrong or stop posting.

 

[NES n00b]

What make Isai so great is he has devoted a lot of time to it, Very few have the option to put as much time into the game unless you are a pro. He has been playing since 64 that a hell of a lot of experience.

There are much more factors than that. He has played alot of good people, learned from his mistakes, changed habits of reflex when it got him in trouble, had a great deal of knowledge of the game, and he could do whatever he needed or wanted to do (in the game).

Smash is a reflex intensive game. If you play against your friends, you will subconciously learn their style. You will instintively react the way you do against your friends when they play because you do it out of reflex. You don't have time to consicously think what to do when there is an fair coming towards you. People who go to tournaments play so many good people who would punish bad mistakes (makes you stop doing stupid things out of reflex) and so many styles (so you aren't trying to play a different person like you would your friend out of reflex), that they make part of their brain wired to do alot of smash related stuff like techs, oberving your opponent and learning to punish their bad or predictable habits, etc all at once and all from reflex.

 

[flyinfilipino]

it never was a debate. it was hubris scrubs trying to compensate for their lack of will, skill, and knowledge.

The word you're looking for is "hubristic."

A little off-topic: Anyyyyone wanna tell me how to not auto-subscribe to threads I reply to?

 

[Xanderous]

The word you're looking for is "hubristic."

A little off-topic: Anyyyyone wanna tell me how to not auto-subscribe to threads I reply to?

It's in your User CP somewhere, but I just added smashboards to spam.

 

[5150]

It's in your User CP somewhere, but I just added smashboards to spam.

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAA

now THATS a sig.

 

[user_name]

Holy jesus... you are an idiot.

Am I now?

Teching was put into the game intentionally. How the hell is something intentional a glitch?

Thanks for proving my point.

Also, you obviously missed my post that had a concrete guideline for defining what is and isn't a glitch. According to wikipedia, wave dashing is not a glitch.

I'd appreciate it if you stopped evading my question.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Am I now?



Thanks for proving my point.



I'd appreciate it if you stopped evading my question.

Has...nothing...to...do...with...topic! sigh.

 

[tddavis]

you just posted before that just playing your friends was good enough to be good at this game. dont try to backtrack. either admit you were wrong or stop posting.

I never said that. I know what tournaments do, you will learn faster because of the environment. Its just that is not the only environment, their are others ways they just might take a lot longer when only playing with a few people. It's just like taking a class where you have a teacher to guide you rather than hunting for the answer in a book. Their are always faster and more efficient ways to learn something, but their are other ways.

 

[user_name]

Has...nothing...to...do...with...topic! sigh.

Oh, it doesn't, eh?

...advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches (PROTIP: they're not glitches). The game is supposed to be played on Hyrule Temple with full items." It's not like advanced players are in some secret club, and are determined to keep these techniques hidden from you...

 

[5150]

I never said that. I know what tournaments do, you will learn faster because of the environment. Its just that is not the only environment, their are others ways they just might take a lot longer when only playing with a few people. It's just like taking a class where you have a teacher to guide you rather than hunting for the answer in a book. Their are always faster and more efficient ways to learn something, but their are other ways.

it's really not possible, since people dont change styles at all when they only fight 1-3 people. but if someone only played with a small group of friends and i were to entertain your arguement, then it would take an amount of years longer than anyone would be willing to spend on a game (in the double digits) to try and get as good as someone who regularly goes to tournaments. therefore, it isn't feasible.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

it's really not possible, since people dont change styles at all when they only fight 1-3 people. but if someone only played with a small group of friends and i were to entertain your arguement, then it would take an amount of years longer than anyone would be willing to spend on a game (in the double digits) to try and get as good as someone who regularly goes to tournaments. therefore, it isn't feasible.

I have come to the decision and decided for myself that the only way for someone to become "truly good" at Smash is the following. Have the money and the time to travel rather far away from home a lot. Money, it takes money to get good at Smash; if you don't have it you always will be a weakling, someone prove me wrong. Btw I intentionally made this post sound a bit grim and disheartening for the sole intention of, well, discussion? Cause really, cmon, people can have the drive and potential to become great; but what good is all that if the person doesn't have the means, huh?

 

[rockmace]

IF THE CASUAL PLAYERS ARE THE STUPID GUILTY PEOPLE, HOW COMES COMPETITIVES GO AS LOW AS THEM AND REPLY TO THOSE STUPID STATEMENT? please, please, stop talking, and begin beating.

actually, the game was not meant to be played ONLY competitively. If that were the case, items wouldn't even exist, and the reappearnce of those in brawl indicates that they are as important in the game as samus.

and,

IF PLAYERS WANT TO SHOW THEIR SKILLS IN EVEN MATCHES, HOW COMES THOSE MATCHES AREN'T TWO BOWSERS?

the player with the best bowser surely will be the most skilled. Using diferent characters, is like entering a duel with ANY WEAPON; picking a gun against a sword, only makes you a coward.

but yes, unskilled players who rely their victories to the items, haven't faced yet a real good player. Be a defensive and evasive bowser imposible to hit, or a superoffensive fox wich doesn't even let him throw the bomb.

the fact is, the game was meant to play as twisted as you like, so noone is right or wrong. Think of this as Mario World. My exgirlfriend finished it, and can play most of the game. This is ok. But stil there were tricky areas difficult to rweach, like the 3rd Star Road. This was only affordable for very good players.
this is the same, much like the main statement, anyone can play, so few can master.

but stop saying wavedashing isn't cheting. If it were meant to be in-game, CPU players would do it, even once in a lifetime. do they? no... EDIT: this isn't exactly he definition , but an aproximation . wavedashing isn't available for anyone, I did read in the How to play "use up+b to comeback" but I didn't see "use dwn+x+r to rapidly dash". So, this is a technique not meant to originally be, and since it was removed from brawl, is obviously a tremendous mistake, unlike lag canceling. right?

I deserve 2 warning points only by having replied this hate-fueled thread

 

[5150]

I have come to the decision and decided for myself that the only way for someone to become "truly good" at Smash is the following. Have the money and the time to travel rather far away from home a lot. Money, it takes money to get good at Smash; if you don't have it you always will be a weakling, someone prove me wrong.

it's true. it's one of the biggest reasons people quit smash.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I have come to the decision and decided for myself that the only way for someone to become "truly good" at Smash is the following. Have the money and the time to travel rather far away from home a lot. Money, it takes money to get good at Smash; if you don't have it you always will be a weakling, someone prove me wrong.

Can't really prove your opinion wrong....

 

[5150]

actually, the games was not meant to be played competitively. If that were the case, items wouldn't even exist, and the reappearnce of those in brawl indicates that they are as important in the game as samus.

and,

IF PLAYERS WANT TO SHOW THEIR SKILLS IN EVEN MATCHES, HOW COMES THOSE MATCHES AREN'T TWO BOWSERS?

the player with the best bowser surely will be the most skilled. Using diferent characters, is like entering a duel with ANY WEAPON; picking a gun against a sword, only makes you a coward.

but yes, unskilled players who rely their victories to the items, haven't faced yet a real good player. Be a defensive and evasive bowser imposible to hit, or a superoffensive fox wich doesn't even let him throw the bomb.

the fact is, the game was meant to play as twisted as you like, so noone is right or wrong. Think of this as Mario World. My exgirlfriend finished it, and can play most of the game. This is ok. But stil there were tricky areas difficult to rweach, like the 3rd Star Road. This was only affordable for very good players.
this is the same, much like the main statement, anyone can play, so few can master.

but stop saying wavedashing isn't a glitch. If it were meant to be in-game, CPU players would do it, even once in a lifetime. do they? no...

the playing fields dont need to be even for the game to have good competition. otherwise every fighting game wouldnt be competitive. there just needs to be 0 randomness.

 

[Nintendude]

I have come to the decision and decided for myself that the only way for someone to become "truly good" at Smash is the following. Have the money and the time to travel rather far away from home a lot. Money, it takes money to get good at Smash; if you don't have it you always will be a weakling, someone prove me wrong.

That's pretty much true unless you are lucky and have big smashfests / tournaments really close to you (like in the NYC scene). But then, you still gotta pay the entry fees, so yeah you are right.

 

[NES n00b]

but stop saying wavedashing isn't a glitch. If it were meant to be in-game, CPU players would do it, even once in a lifetime. do they? no...

THAT is not the definition of a glitch at all. Unitentional things that people do and a flaw in what a program is supposed to do are two completely different things.

Also to Uchiharakiri, depends on how much money, but yeah, that is right. It is improbable that anyone would have access to alot of good players without money. Plus, people without money couldn't join tournies so that they can practice against good people playing at their best and to get rid of the anxiety of attending tournies when one is new to them.

 

[Nintendude]

but stop saying wavedashing isn't a glitch. If it were meant to be in-game, CPU players would do it, even once in a lifetime. do they? no...

CPU Luigis don't use up-B to recover. ZOMG UP-B IS UNINTENTIONAL AND A GLITCH LAWL

 

[Brightside6382]

I don't understand why the competitive scene even cares what a bunch of random casual players do/say. Their opinions don't matter in any kind of way so why even waste the energy trying to argue with them?

(looks at Rockmace's post) why should I even care what he thinks? He doesn't go to any tourney's probably and never will. So his opinion doesn't matter to us at all.

 

[RDK]

IF PLAYERS WANT TO SHOW THEIR SKILLS IN EVEN MATCHES, HOW COMES THOSE MATCHES AREN'T TWO BOWSERS?

the player with the best bowser surely will be the most skilled. Using diferent characters, is like entering a duel with ANY WEAPON; picking a gun against a sword, only makes you a coward.

Ever heard of a tier list? Didn't thinnk so.

but stop saying wavedashing isn't a glitch. If it were meant to be in-game, CPU players would do it, even once in a lifetime. do they? no...

Basing anything on computer players is stupid. Computer players aren't human players--they do a lot of ridiculous things, like their ability to grab out of impossible situations.

Also, ever try and F-air spike a computer player with Mario off the side of the stage? More often than not, the computer will cancel it and recover to the stage. I'm pretty sure players being able to do THAT wasn't originally intended by the game makers. But, nonetheless, it's in.

And it honestly doesn't matter what the game maker's intentions were. People have taken the game for what it is, not what it's intended to be.

Same with any other form of expression or art. Say you write a book, and your views in this book may spur people to call you a racist because of some ideas in your book, even though that wasn't at all your intention.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

That's pretty much true unless you are lucky and have big smashfests / tournaments really close to you (like in the NYC scene). But then, you still gotta pay the entry fees, so yeah you are right.

Then my friends, this is a very sad aspect. Luckily and hopefully, Wi-Fi will be able to give all of those, me including the ability to fight more varied amounts of people, hopefully though. I'm kinda surprised though I got some folks to agree with me for once, how lucky am I.

 

[Nintendude]

I don't understand why the competitive scene even cares what a bunch of random casual players do/say. Their opinions don't matter in any kind of way so why even waste the energy trying to argue with them?

(looks at Rockmace's post) why should I even care what he thinks? He doesn't go to any tourney's probably and never will. So his opinion doesn't matter to us at all.

I think it's very detrimental to Smashboards to have a section of its userbase opposed to and misinformed about Smashboards' most important purpose. That's why I care at least.

 

[5150]

brightside, we care because they come on our forum and act like *******

 

[Nintendude]

Then my friends, this is a very sad aspect. Luckily and hopefully, Wi-Fi will be able to give all of those, me including the ability to fight more varied amounts of people, hopefully though. I'm kinda surprised though I got some folks to agree with me for once, how lucky am I.

That's life for you. There's not many things you can do without money these days.

 

[Gilgamesh]

THAT is not the definition of a glitch at all. Unitentional things that people do and a flaw in what a program is supposed to do are two completely different things.

Also to Uchiharakiri, depends on how much money, but yeah, that is right. It is improbable that anyone would have access to alot of good players without money. Plus, people without money couldn't join tournies so that they can practice against good people playing at their best and to get rid of the anxiety of attending tournies when one is new to them.

Yes, no one said this had to be fair. That's another weird thing that pops up in these arguments... Many people start arguing that its unfair that the only way to be really good at the game is to have the resources to travel and play many people. They then seem to think that because it's unfair, it isn't possible.

But who said life was fair? Why do people bring up this kind of argument? What does injustice have to do with this whole business?

People, i swear...

 

[Brightside6382]

lol as long as they keep out of the regionals and tournament boards I think its fine.

 

[5150]

But who said life was fair?

omg i lol'd so hard when i read that and looked at your avatar.

lol as long as they keep out of the regionals and tournament boards I think its fine.

i guess.......i wish it were more gg though.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Yes, no one said this had to be fair. That's another weird thing that pops up in these arguments... Many people start arguing that its unfair that the only way to be really good at the game is to have the resources to travel and play many people. They then seem to think that because it's unfair, it isn't possible.

But who said life was fair? Why do people bring up this kind of argument? What does injustice have to do with this whole business?

People, i swear...

Oh it's possible, but it's extremely hard, probably harder than learning to wave-dash properly and quickly. Not everyone has money, but everyone does have potential to become great and awesome, that is a sad part of it, I never did say it was impossible; I just said it was kind of lame and everyone agreed.

 

[RDK]

Gah, this thread moves way too fast--junk gets lost on past pages. In any case, further conversation on the matter is just beating a dead horse. Anything really worth saying has already been said.

*UNSUBSCRIBES*

 

[user_name]

Yes, no one said this had to be fair. That's another weird thing that pops up in these arguments... Many people start arguing that its unfair that the only way to be really good at the game is to have the resources to travel and play many people. They then seem to think that because it's unfair, it isn't possible.

But who said life was fair? Why do people bring up this kind of argument? What does injustice have to do with this whole business?

People, i swear...

It's unfair that people keep using the word 'fair' on smashboards. Believe it or not, it can get ****ing confusing.

No one said it had to be forward air? What? WHAT HAS TO BE FORWARD AIR? TELL ME!

 

[MookieRah]

Thanks for proving my point.

I guess your point is to trick someone into saying that because something is intended it can't be a glitch, which would define a glitch as simply something that wasn't intended. If so, you are even a bigger idiot than I thought, considering you put enough thought to set up an elaborate theme that proves absolutely nothing.

 

[user_name]

I guess your point is to trick someone into saying that because something is intended it can't be a glitch, which would define a glitch as simply something that wasn't intended. If so, you are even a bigger idiot than I thought, considering you put enough thought to set up an elaborate theme that proves absolutely nothing.

Yes, yes, but you still haven't answered my question. What sets WDing apart from the black hole glitch?

 

[Gilgamesh]

It's unfair that people keep using the word 'fair' on smashboards. Believe it or not, it can get ****ing confusing.

No one said it had to be forward air? What? WHAT HAS TO BE FORWARD AIR? TELL ME!

Life might not be fair, but it's totally forward air.

 

[RDK]

Yes, yes, but you still haven't answered my question. What sets WDing apart from the black hole glitch?

What sets them apart is that the black hole glitch has absolutely no use for competitive play, you moron.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Life might not be fair, but it's totally forward air.

If life gives you fair, make _____

 

[abit_rusty]

Ugh get over this simple matter already. It's a competitive game...much like a sport...you either play it for fun or play it professionally. In sports there are novices who either look up to the pros and hope to play like them, or don't give a **** and play for fun with friends. The fact that smash is a video game allows for more elitists and casual groups since it's so accessible. You can play smash in the comfort of your living room, rain or shine. You can be average at it fairly quickly, like any other videogame you put your effort into, but it takes initiative to get better and play competitively. If you don't admire another player, then why even give a **** about them unless they're a friend? If you dislike another player then isn't it logical to just ignore them? Stop the drama and suck it up -- to all the whiners out there, casuals and competitives alike.