The purpose of this thread is to show how planking operates, concerning frame data, and also list some of the general positive/negative tools or qualities each character has. I'm sure many of you have seen, either personally or online, matches where planking or edge camping was utilized, and have wondered what those actions and reactions involving planking look like frame-wise. So I have decided to make a thread showing frame data concerning ledge play, and options that other members of the cast have (or don't have) when it comes to planking. I believe this thread is LONG overdue, and honestly I am somewhat saddened that it took the community this long to REALLY try to look and see how something such as planking works on a frame basis, but I digress. I am glad that finally some effort has been put into shedding light on this subject, and understanding better how planking as a whole operates.
Starting out this thread, I will focus first and foremost on planking concerning MK for two main reasons. The first, is that I think understanding his planking is much more important than for characters like Pit or G&W. Since he is the most common character in tournament who can use it, and generally considered the best user of planking period (On a Frame Basis, MK is clearly and the undisputed King of Planking. The only thing that would hold him back from that title overall, is the effect of moves like G&W's Uair. Even still, I think that he is easily the best at planking even taking into consideration things like that.), I feel that its better for me to cover him first, and then focus on G&W/Pit/others. The second reason, is that while I have a ton of frame data info on those characters, I am missing a few key parts concerning edge play for them, and I have not 100% validated the frame data I have for those characters with other members of the community. Once I do, I shall add them in here so the community can see how other good planking members do or function.
Here is some general frame data you should know when we discuss edge play. Thank you Hotgarbage and Kprime for helping me gather and verify this.
- Ledge invincibility: 1-46 (This is correct for most of the cast. There are some exceptions to this like Pikachu and Tethers)
- Minimum Time on Ledge: 24 frames (The 25th frame you can do stuff like ledge attack, ledge jump, ledge roll, etc. You cannot drop down from the edge on this frame) (This is the Same for everyone, only a few exceptions to this)
- You cannot buffer a ledge drop, hence frame 25 being unusable for ledge drop.
- Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21 (This is for everyone)
-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.
Quarter Circle edge snaps (basically fastest edge snap possible for these characters onstage. This assumes that you are AS close to the edge onstage as possible. Being even SLIGHTLY off can negatively impact these numbers and add frames to your edge snap). The number is when they first grab the edge.
MK: 6
Snake: 9
Wario: 9
Pika: 6
Mario: 9
Peach: 11
Falco: 8
Diddy: 8
Kirby: 9
Lucario: 10
G&W: 7
ZSS: 9
DK: 8
Popo: 9
Nana: 13
Marth: 8
Toon Link: 7
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So with that, let's start the discussion on MK:
Meta Knight is an extremely good, if not the best, planker in Brawl. He has amazing tools to fight for the ledge, or to keep people away while staying close to the edge. His planking frame-wise is clearly the strongest out there.
Pros:
- MK has very good aerials frame-wise and hitbox-wise for combating people who are trying to stop planking
- MK has multiple jumps, meaning that he has quite a bit of control over how things can or will pan out
- MK has multiple "paths" he can take to regrab the edge, or to get back onstage
- MK can combine grabbing the edge, with his Down B, to act similar to Shiek's Planking in Melee. I will figure out what, if any, window is available to hit him as he tries to grab the edge with Down B. You would be looking an punishing him at the end, not near the beginning.
Cons:
- MK has fairly low horizontal air speed. This con is almost exclusively applicable to lesser players, or those who are inexperienced on planking. This is a non issue for the MK if he truly understands how to plank.
-Ladies and Gentlemen, that is IT. There are no other cons that MK has when planking. Any flaw imaginable concerning MK, is completely mitigated or removed when he planks.
If you want an in depth look at all of MK's frame data, this thread can satisfy you: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
Alright, let's run through the planking process step by step, looking at frame data for each side, and then meshing them together.
MK gets the lead, and goes to the edge. From this point, he is invincible for 46 frames total. Out of that, he can first move off the edge on Frame 26. From here, assuming he gets off the edge as soon as possible, he has 21 frames of invincibility (realistically, you could hope for 18+ invincibility frames unless you get the timing down very well for when you can first move off the edge) From here, he can use his Uair, which first hits on Frame 2. Uair lasts until frame 13. You are allowed to input something on frame 14. This means that you can Uair again, while still being invincible. Shortly after the second Uair, if you are next to the edge, you can immediately grab it.
Here's that situation, not jumbled together and broken down step by step:
I will run this situation from frames 1-46
- MK first grabs the edge. He is stuck on the edge for 25 frames.
- MK first moves off the edge, and inputs Uair ( Frame 27 ). From what I know, you cannot have the ledge drop and an aerial on the same frame. So technically you drop on Frame 26, but cannot input Uair until frame 27). This Uair first comes out on frame 2 ( Frame 28), and the complete move ends on Frame 13 ( Frame 39). Frame 14 (Frame 40) you are allowed to input another input.
- MK can now Uair again. (Frame 41 it hits). Then that Uair ends (Frame 52).
So in short, MK's first Uair is completely invincible. His second one is invincible until about midway through, after the hitbox has come out.
Now let's look at what the defender onstage can do about this:
This is for MK's Uair
- Optimal shield advantage: -10 (Meaning that if MK hits your shield with Uair, and you respond perfectly to it with something like an Upb OOS, Usmash OOS, or Shield Grab, that this is your frame advantage for those actions ONLY. This means that if you have a really good Upb OOS, you can attempt to use it. The problem obviously is that MK is offstage, and by the time you use your Upb OOS he's probably too low for you to hit, or he is invincible.)
- Optimal shield drop advantage: -3 (Meaning that like the above, if you get hit and drop your shield perfectly, you have a 3 frame advantage on MK. You can run into trouble however because while you have 3 frames of advantage, it's not enough to guarantee you a edge snap from onstage. Even the characters who snap to the edge fastest are TOO slow.)
Basically, this means that onstage if you are DEAD PERFECTLY AS FAR NEXT TO THE EDGE AS POSSIBLE ONSTAGE, and you regularly shield his Uair, that you basically cannot punish MK for Uairing, nor can you try to steal the edge from him. His Uair is so fast that for any character in the game, that if you spotdodge his Uair there is a VERY strong chance he can simply Uair you again either before you can move or while you are vulnerable in your spotdodge frames. So spotdodging to try and get through... is not an option either really. Uair is also faster than airdodges, and MK can usually Uair MULTIPLE TIMES on your single airdodge while you are unable to move.
Here's a list of things that make it "gay":
- The edge snap data I provided near the top is ONLY for characters when they are PERFECTLY as far onto the edge as possible from onstage. Now, as you can probably guess, what happens if you shield MK's Uair? You scoot back slightly. Not that far, but it still happens. This tiny amount of distance that you slide backwards negatively impacts how long it takes you to edge snap from onstage. If something would originally take you 6 frames, now it will take 8-9. The further back you are, the more of a disadvantage you have. This means that, while it ALREADY being impossible framewise to take the edge from MK after the first Uair, that subsequent Uairs make it even further impossible as it slides you back further and further. Also, if you are not squarely lined up on the edge to start with, then it's as if MK had already hit your shield a few times, and it becomes "more impossible" to steal the edge or punish him.
- Since MK is invincible for so long, he can technically drop from the edge, use Down B (even after a buffered Double Jump), and basically you cannot hit him until he gets out of his Down B. If you take the edge from him, he can move it onstage. If you do not take the edge from him, he gets to grab the edge (I thought at first he was entirely invincible and as it turns out there is probably a small window to try and hit him
- About taking the edge from MK: Assuming you somehow DO manage to take the edge from MK (he makes a mistake basically), he has a plethora of options to deal with it. The GAYEST IMO is that as long as he is at the right height, if you take the edge from him, he can simply Tornado/Reverse Shuttle Loop/Double Jump safely back onstage. This means that MK can either make the situation where YOU are now on the edge, and he is onstage trying to trap you, or he still gets onstage safely and THEN DECIDES TO RUN FOR THE OTHER EDGE! This makes grabbing the edge against MK almost completely pointless, as he can usually just safely make it to the other edge or back onstage safely while you are now the one on the edge and he is safe onstage.
- Projectiles are GARBAGE at stopping MK from planking. I will go down a fairly long list of projectiles, and why they are not effective at stopping MK from planking.
Grenades? You can destroy them with invincible attacks. You can just stay invincible whenever they would explode (they run on a timer that is set, and you have set invincibility for 46 frames. It's not hard to mesh together your invincibility time frame with the grenade explosion.). You can catch them and throw them, or catch them and grab the edge when they would explode. Grenades, if made to stop mid air because of Snake, can only fall straight down vertically. You can move left or right to avoid it, besides just staying invincible or blowing it up yourself lol. Basically, grenades are actually bad at stopping planking. Overwhelmingly, Grenades have a psychological effect on people more than an actual problem that is hard to overcome. Once you realize just HOW long you stay invincible, and your options against grenades, they become close to useless.
Bananas? Bananas thrown forwards at you arc forward and down. Hugging the edge closely, or dropping down just a tad makes it impossible for Bananas thrown in this fashion from hitting you. Not only that, but you could also be an A-Hole and basically jump into the banana while invincible, and make it either fall onstage or offstage or catch it. You can catch Bananas thrown at you from any angle. If thrown or dropped straight down, they obviously follow the same trajectory straight vertical down. Not hard to either catch it, avoid it, or just LOL as you are invincible and it does nothing. Bananas also don't do very much damage when they hit you as you are airborne. Kinda like getting hit by a grenade itself, not the explosion but the actual item. If you have a fairly solid lead, you can take 10, 20, even 30 Bananas to the face and it doesn't matter.
Peanuts? Helllll no. You must be on Crack to this this is a good solution to stopping planking. Peanuts are extremely easy to break or catch. They arc in a certain path depending on how long they charge it for (the less they charge, the easier it is for them to get it to arc downwards). You can catch/Break/Avoid/be invincible REALLY EASY against this projectile. EVEN IF HE CATCHES A PEANUT OF HIS OWN, AND TOSSES IT AT YOU IN ANY DIRECTION, IT'S A TERRIBLE PROJECTILE TO STOP PLANKING AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED IF YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD OPTION. ACTUALLY, I MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO BE YOUR FRIEND ANYMORE FRANKLY IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE THAT! They are extremely slow projectiles that... I shouldn't have to say this guys, but Peanuts SUCK at stopping MK from planking in almost every aspect. Seriously.
Lasers? Who allows you to live everyday? GET OUTTA HERE! YOU'RE GARBAGE IF YOU EVEN SUGGEST LASERS!
Bike Tires? Psh. I love Wario man, but Tires are garbage at stopping MK from planking. Tires would be OK, if you could readily summon them at will without having to take the time to pull out your bike and break it. Then, the tire acts basically like a Banana. Arcs when thrown forward, drops straight down if tossed down or Z dropped, easy to catch/avoid, staying invincible and taking the hit on purpose destroys it unfortunately. Like tires are bad option against planking. You shouldn't get hit by this.
Ice Blocks? Actually an OK options against Planking. This one requires you to actually kind of pay attention. The biggest problem with Ice Blocks, besides having a super linear path, is that you can "reflect" them back if you hit them. You can hit them even with a non invincible aerial, and those now will not hit you. They also are only even decent if you have both IC's. If you only have Popo, you can kiss this option goodbye as it sucks on its own. Ice Blocks would be better if the IC's had less cooldown lag on them.
Blizzard? You can use your invincible Down B from the edge to regrab it through Blizzard safely, EVEN if they desynch and alternate it at a good rate. The edge snap "circle" or area that is available to MK is large enough for you to regrab the edge normally while still avoiding Blizzard.
Fire Breath? Same as Blizzard for the most part. The gayest thing is that because you have a lot of jumps, if you feel like it you can actually just wait out the fire breath and still grab the edge safely. Now they have to wait for it to recharge a bit before using it. Besides the fact that MK already is pretty **** against Bowser and Charizard onstage, you basically can reasonably avoid streams of fire coming at you. You can also try using high priority Side B into the edge and a lot of times it will clank a LOT with each Fire Breath hit. Because of the way it works, if the edge has a lip, you can "camp" the lip and be safe. You can also resort to using the Down B invincible edge grabbing.
So folks... here's a TL:DR for those of you who felt like not reading it all like a BAD, BAD PERSON!
TL:DR
- MK's first and second Uairs are invincible.
-You cannot punish, or grab the edge, from MK if you are onstage and shield his Uair.
- If you powershield his Uair, the only thing you are guaranteed is to be able to steal the edge from him assuming your fingers are quick enough.
- If you steal the edge from him, he is guaranteed safety either through using tornado to get back onstage, Double Jumping back onstage, Reverse Shuttle Loop, etc.
- His multiple jumps dictates FULLY how things will pan out against every character in the game.
- Frame-wise, even MK in the ditto has a hard time punishing his copy from planking.
- Projectiles are not good at stopping planking. MK is invincible for too long unfortunately for them to be useful, or he simply has too many solid options against them that prevents them from being useful.
- Once the MK learns to fast fall his Uair at the correct time, any options you have against him are invalidated as far as punishment is concerned. The same thing applies when he learns the correct height to hover at while planking.
- From a technical perspective, his planking is unbeatable and "reasonably unbeatable" at the Human Level. I say that because it's slightly easier (although still technically impossible even under the human realm) to try and stop his planking when you factor in Human Limits. HOWEVER, the same applies to the defender. He, even when given the benefit of the doubt, cannot stop planking framewise. His job now becomes a lot harder to accomplish if he is off by even a TAD on his timing for his actions like shield drop, and edge snap/punishment attempt/powershield attempt.
So there you have it folks. MK's planking, concerning Frame Data, IS unstoppable on theoretical terms, and STILL unstoppable on realistic Human terms. Framewise, MK can either prevent you from grabbing the edge safely/before him, or if you do he can escape to safety and repeat the process with no risk. I know some people feel that "Oh well if you know what the MK wants to do, you can read him and stop it Dawg", but the frame data doesn't lie. Even if you know and react perfectly to what he wants to do, his planking is unbeatable concerning Frames.
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OKIE DOKIE LET'S MOVE ON TO G&W:
Mr. Game And Watch is considered by many as a clear top 3 planking character, if not the second best planker in the game next to MK. He has an interesting Uair with a nice windbox, a nice Nair that pokes in odd and hard to cover places, and a high priority Upb with a few invincibility frames near the beginning.
Pros:
- Invincibility on the Upb near the beginning is nice
- Aerials cover a lot of range for a long duration
- Windbox on Uair allows him a lot of flexibility and tricks on dealing with certain projectiles and occasionally keeping people at bay
Cons:
- He has much much more noticeable cooldown lag/vulnerable frames after an aerial than MK
- He loses invincibility before any single one of his aerials end
- His Upb, if you grab the edge right as he uses it, leaves him at quite a noticeable frame disadvantage
If you want more info on G&W's overall frame data, here's a thread of his frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189251
Now onto his planking data.
Nair:
1-6 Startup
7-10 First Hitbox
12-15 Second Hitbox
17-20 Third Hitbox
22-25 4th and Final Hitbox
26-34 is cooldown
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -8
Optimal shield drop advantage: -1
Briefly, what this means is that even if G&W does a Nair as fast as possible, he loses invincibility cleanly before the last hit comes out. This leaves him very vulnerable, especially considering that a lot of times G&W players like to drop down first (which eats up invincibility frames) a decent height, and then rise with a Nair. This means that depending on where they are when they decide to try a rising Nair, you can expect their remaining invincibility to basically shrink in half or further.
Technically, if you shield the last hit of Nair, you cannot punish it unless you have a good Upb OOS or he gets sloppy and allows you to shield grab him lol. G&W's Nair lasts so long that he either has to use it earlier than he wants to maintain as much invincibility as possible, or he waits and spaces it better to make it much harder for you to punish with an Upb OOS as he will be lower than if he used it early. So he has to trade off invincibility quite a bit if he wants to space the Nair well to try and avoid punishment. Now if he waits, and you steal the edge from him which is quite feasible as his aerials can't stop the faster edge snapping characters and it will take him some frames to drop down the necessary height, then you neutralize his Nair and Uair.
Uair:
1-5 Startup
6-7 Hitbox out
8-19
20-21 Hitbox out
22-39 Aerial cooldown
Shield stun (both hits): 1
Here G&W loses invincibility right around the second hit (if he isn't frame perfect, he loses it before the second hitbox). If he wants to drop down a bit to use his Uair, as you can probably imagine his remaining invincibility window shrinks. G&W's Uair is unique, in that it has a Windbox covering a fairly large area. However, the cooldown lag he suffers GREATLY hampers his ability to abuse the Windbox the best he can.
Because of the cooldown lag he suffers, you can safely shield the attack and grab the edge before he can with most characters except the slowest of the slowest of edge snap characters. If you are fast, have a good downwards aerial, you can try to punish him either OOS or run off and use the aerial (if you shield drop you have a smaller margin, but still doable).
SOOOOOO this translates into:
G&W grabs the edge (Frame 1-24 stuck)
First frame available for a ledge specific action (Frame 25)
First frame available for you to drop down from the edge (Frame 26)
G&W using an aerial (Frame 32 Uair would come out, Frame 33 Nair would come out. These all assume you are using the aerial as soon as possible, falling from the edge)
Frame 46 is the last frame of invincibility. It occurs before the end of any of G&W's single aerials end. Frame 46 translates into Frame 20 of his attack assuming he uses it as soon as possible falling from the edge. So his last frame of invincibility is on frame 20 of any of his aerials. That would be the last part of hit #3 on Nair, and on Uair right as his second Uair hitbox first comes out.
G&W's attacks also have some startup. There is enough time for the faster edge snappers out there to edge snap the ledge before his aerial could come out. Not only that, but technically if you edge hog as late as possible before the first hitbox of either Uair or Nair comes out, you still have a frame advantage on him.
Upb:
1-8 Startup
9-29 Hitbox out
30-33 Parachute appears
33-48* Cooldown
Landing lag: 41
Invincibility: 5-13
Soonest ledge grab: 15
* means you can cancel the parachute animation on frame 41 into an aerial. You still have to factor in how long the aerial takes for the first hitbox to come out on top of those 41 frames.
This means G&W cannot grab the edge with complete invincibility like Shiek could. It's close, but no cigar. Him having to wait until he is positioned to grab it right on that frame does leave him open to practically every character to edge snap and punish him while he is still lagging. Even if he cancels his parachute with an aerial, he is still vulnerable for some time. If you grab it on frame 14, you can move off the edge on frame 39. If he cancels the parachute into an aerial, his fastest being Uair (which won't cover him very well lol as you are below him), the first hit won't come out until Frame 46. Nair would be 47, Bair would be 50, Dair would be 52.
If you grab the edge before frame 14 of his Upb, then your advantage obviously is larger. This is quite feasible as his Upb's active hitbox lasts basically for all of your remaining invincibility. If you grab the edge and his Upb hitbox comes out before you can first move off the edge, you are completely safe and depending on where he is wait to punish him, stand up, drop down and hit him, etc.
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PIT! (General Info)
He loses invincibility before any of his aerials end
He is vulnerable snapping to the edge with Upb/is not fully invincible even when doing it immediately
He may lose or is just about to lose invincibility if he wants to shoot an arrow at you and assuming he does it fast
I am not 100% sure, but I believe you can edge snap before his Uair starts? If it starts frame 7 or later, then yes this is quite feasible assuming you move as they move.
SO NOW YOU KNOW! If you have Questions, go ahead and ask. If you have suggestions on how to improve stuff (Font Color, Font Size, maybe a table of Contents/quick summary at the top, etc). While I have provided a ton of info here, I may not have explained everything the best as possible, or encompassed every tid bit as possible. Which means it's your job to ask away so I can cover EVERY EVERY thing. Like I said earlier, I will do this with G&W/Pit/potentially a few others to demonstrate how their planking works.
Starting out this thread, I will focus first and foremost on planking concerning MK for two main reasons. The first, is that I think understanding his planking is much more important than for characters like Pit or G&W. Since he is the most common character in tournament who can use it, and generally considered the best user of planking period (On a Frame Basis, MK is clearly and the undisputed King of Planking. The only thing that would hold him back from that title overall, is the effect of moves like G&W's Uair. Even still, I think that he is easily the best at planking even taking into consideration things like that.), I feel that its better for me to cover him first, and then focus on G&W/Pit/others. The second reason, is that while I have a ton of frame data info on those characters, I am missing a few key parts concerning edge play for them, and I have not 100% validated the frame data I have for those characters with other members of the community. Once I do, I shall add them in here so the community can see how other good planking members do or function.
Here is some general frame data you should know when we discuss edge play. Thank you Hotgarbage and Kprime for helping me gather and verify this.
- Ledge invincibility: 1-46 (This is correct for most of the cast. There are some exceptions to this like Pikachu and Tethers)
- Minimum Time on Ledge: 24 frames (The 25th frame you can do stuff like ledge attack, ledge jump, ledge roll, etc. You cannot drop down from the edge on this frame) (This is the Same for everyone, only a few exceptions to this)
- You cannot buffer a ledge drop, hence frame 25 being unusable for ledge drop.
- Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21 (This is for everyone)
-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.
Quarter Circle edge snaps (basically fastest edge snap possible for these characters onstage. This assumes that you are AS close to the edge onstage as possible. Being even SLIGHTLY off can negatively impact these numbers and add frames to your edge snap). The number is when they first grab the edge.
MK: 6
Snake: 9
Wario: 9
Pika: 6
Mario: 9
Peach: 11
Falco: 8
Diddy: 8
Kirby: 9
Lucario: 10
G&W: 7
ZSS: 9
DK: 8
Popo: 9
Nana: 13
Marth: 8
Toon Link: 7
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So with that, let's start the discussion on MK:
Meta Knight is an extremely good, if not the best, planker in Brawl. He has amazing tools to fight for the ledge, or to keep people away while staying close to the edge. His planking frame-wise is clearly the strongest out there.
Pros:
- MK has very good aerials frame-wise and hitbox-wise for combating people who are trying to stop planking
- MK has multiple jumps, meaning that he has quite a bit of control over how things can or will pan out
- MK has multiple "paths" he can take to regrab the edge, or to get back onstage
- MK can combine grabbing the edge, with his Down B, to act similar to Shiek's Planking in Melee. I will figure out what, if any, window is available to hit him as he tries to grab the edge with Down B. You would be looking an punishing him at the end, not near the beginning.
Cons:
- MK has fairly low horizontal air speed. This con is almost exclusively applicable to lesser players, or those who are inexperienced on planking. This is a non issue for the MK if he truly understands how to plank.
-Ladies and Gentlemen, that is IT. There are no other cons that MK has when planking. Any flaw imaginable concerning MK, is completely mitigated or removed when he planks.
If you want an in depth look at all of MK's frame data, this thread can satisfy you: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
Alright, let's run through the planking process step by step, looking at frame data for each side, and then meshing them together.
MK gets the lead, and goes to the edge. From this point, he is invincible for 46 frames total. Out of that, he can first move off the edge on Frame 26. From here, assuming he gets off the edge as soon as possible, he has 21 frames of invincibility (realistically, you could hope for 18+ invincibility frames unless you get the timing down very well for when you can first move off the edge) From here, he can use his Uair, which first hits on Frame 2. Uair lasts until frame 13. You are allowed to input something on frame 14. This means that you can Uair again, while still being invincible. Shortly after the second Uair, if you are next to the edge, you can immediately grab it.
Here's that situation, not jumbled together and broken down step by step:
I will run this situation from frames 1-46
- MK first grabs the edge. He is stuck on the edge for 25 frames.
- MK first moves off the edge, and inputs Uair ( Frame 27 ). From what I know, you cannot have the ledge drop and an aerial on the same frame. So technically you drop on Frame 26, but cannot input Uair until frame 27). This Uair first comes out on frame 2 ( Frame 28), and the complete move ends on Frame 13 ( Frame 39). Frame 14 (Frame 40) you are allowed to input another input.
- MK can now Uair again. (Frame 41 it hits). Then that Uair ends (Frame 52).
So in short, MK's first Uair is completely invincible. His second one is invincible until about midway through, after the hitbox has come out.
Now let's look at what the defender onstage can do about this:
This is for MK's Uair
- Optimal shield advantage: -10 (Meaning that if MK hits your shield with Uair, and you respond perfectly to it with something like an Upb OOS, Usmash OOS, or Shield Grab, that this is your frame advantage for those actions ONLY. This means that if you have a really good Upb OOS, you can attempt to use it. The problem obviously is that MK is offstage, and by the time you use your Upb OOS he's probably too low for you to hit, or he is invincible.)
- Optimal shield drop advantage: -3 (Meaning that like the above, if you get hit and drop your shield perfectly, you have a 3 frame advantage on MK. You can run into trouble however because while you have 3 frames of advantage, it's not enough to guarantee you a edge snap from onstage. Even the characters who snap to the edge fastest are TOO slow.)
Basically, this means that onstage if you are DEAD PERFECTLY AS FAR NEXT TO THE EDGE AS POSSIBLE ONSTAGE, and you regularly shield his Uair, that you basically cannot punish MK for Uairing, nor can you try to steal the edge from him. His Uair is so fast that for any character in the game, that if you spotdodge his Uair there is a VERY strong chance he can simply Uair you again either before you can move or while you are vulnerable in your spotdodge frames. So spotdodging to try and get through... is not an option either really. Uair is also faster than airdodges, and MK can usually Uair MULTIPLE TIMES on your single airdodge while you are unable to move.
Here's a list of things that make it "gay":
- The edge snap data I provided near the top is ONLY for characters when they are PERFECTLY as far onto the edge as possible from onstage. Now, as you can probably guess, what happens if you shield MK's Uair? You scoot back slightly. Not that far, but it still happens. This tiny amount of distance that you slide backwards negatively impacts how long it takes you to edge snap from onstage. If something would originally take you 6 frames, now it will take 8-9. The further back you are, the more of a disadvantage you have. This means that, while it ALREADY being impossible framewise to take the edge from MK after the first Uair, that subsequent Uairs make it even further impossible as it slides you back further and further. Also, if you are not squarely lined up on the edge to start with, then it's as if MK had already hit your shield a few times, and it becomes "more impossible" to steal the edge or punish him.
- Since MK is invincible for so long, he can technically drop from the edge, use Down B (even after a buffered Double Jump), and basically you cannot hit him until he gets out of his Down B. If you take the edge from him, he can move it onstage. If you do not take the edge from him, he gets to grab the edge (I thought at first he was entirely invincible and as it turns out there is probably a small window to try and hit him
- About taking the edge from MK: Assuming you somehow DO manage to take the edge from MK (he makes a mistake basically), he has a plethora of options to deal with it. The GAYEST IMO is that as long as he is at the right height, if you take the edge from him, he can simply Tornado/Reverse Shuttle Loop/Double Jump safely back onstage. This means that MK can either make the situation where YOU are now on the edge, and he is onstage trying to trap you, or he still gets onstage safely and THEN DECIDES TO RUN FOR THE OTHER EDGE! This makes grabbing the edge against MK almost completely pointless, as he can usually just safely make it to the other edge or back onstage safely while you are now the one on the edge and he is safe onstage.
- Projectiles are GARBAGE at stopping MK from planking. I will go down a fairly long list of projectiles, and why they are not effective at stopping MK from planking.
Grenades? You can destroy them with invincible attacks. You can just stay invincible whenever they would explode (they run on a timer that is set, and you have set invincibility for 46 frames. It's not hard to mesh together your invincibility time frame with the grenade explosion.). You can catch them and throw them, or catch them and grab the edge when they would explode. Grenades, if made to stop mid air because of Snake, can only fall straight down vertically. You can move left or right to avoid it, besides just staying invincible or blowing it up yourself lol. Basically, grenades are actually bad at stopping planking. Overwhelmingly, Grenades have a psychological effect on people more than an actual problem that is hard to overcome. Once you realize just HOW long you stay invincible, and your options against grenades, they become close to useless.
Bananas? Bananas thrown forwards at you arc forward and down. Hugging the edge closely, or dropping down just a tad makes it impossible for Bananas thrown in this fashion from hitting you. Not only that, but you could also be an A-Hole and basically jump into the banana while invincible, and make it either fall onstage or offstage or catch it. You can catch Bananas thrown at you from any angle. If thrown or dropped straight down, they obviously follow the same trajectory straight vertical down. Not hard to either catch it, avoid it, or just LOL as you are invincible and it does nothing. Bananas also don't do very much damage when they hit you as you are airborne. Kinda like getting hit by a grenade itself, not the explosion but the actual item. If you have a fairly solid lead, you can take 10, 20, even 30 Bananas to the face and it doesn't matter.
Peanuts? Helllll no. You must be on Crack to this this is a good solution to stopping planking. Peanuts are extremely easy to break or catch. They arc in a certain path depending on how long they charge it for (the less they charge, the easier it is for them to get it to arc downwards). You can catch/Break/Avoid/be invincible REALLY EASY against this projectile. EVEN IF HE CATCHES A PEANUT OF HIS OWN, AND TOSSES IT AT YOU IN ANY DIRECTION, IT'S A TERRIBLE PROJECTILE TO STOP PLANKING AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED IF YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD OPTION. ACTUALLY, I MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO BE YOUR FRIEND ANYMORE FRANKLY IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE THAT! They are extremely slow projectiles that... I shouldn't have to say this guys, but Peanuts SUCK at stopping MK from planking in almost every aspect. Seriously.
Lasers? Who allows you to live everyday? GET OUTTA HERE! YOU'RE GARBAGE IF YOU EVEN SUGGEST LASERS!
Bike Tires? Psh. I love Wario man, but Tires are garbage at stopping MK from planking. Tires would be OK, if you could readily summon them at will without having to take the time to pull out your bike and break it. Then, the tire acts basically like a Banana. Arcs when thrown forward, drops straight down if tossed down or Z dropped, easy to catch/avoid, staying invincible and taking the hit on purpose destroys it unfortunately. Like tires are bad option against planking. You shouldn't get hit by this.
Ice Blocks? Actually an OK options against Planking. This one requires you to actually kind of pay attention. The biggest problem with Ice Blocks, besides having a super linear path, is that you can "reflect" them back if you hit them. You can hit them even with a non invincible aerial, and those now will not hit you. They also are only even decent if you have both IC's. If you only have Popo, you can kiss this option goodbye as it sucks on its own. Ice Blocks would be better if the IC's had less cooldown lag on them.
Blizzard? You can use your invincible Down B from the edge to regrab it through Blizzard safely, EVEN if they desynch and alternate it at a good rate. The edge snap "circle" or area that is available to MK is large enough for you to regrab the edge normally while still avoiding Blizzard.
Fire Breath? Same as Blizzard for the most part. The gayest thing is that because you have a lot of jumps, if you feel like it you can actually just wait out the fire breath and still grab the edge safely. Now they have to wait for it to recharge a bit before using it. Besides the fact that MK already is pretty **** against Bowser and Charizard onstage, you basically can reasonably avoid streams of fire coming at you. You can also try using high priority Side B into the edge and a lot of times it will clank a LOT with each Fire Breath hit. Because of the way it works, if the edge has a lip, you can "camp" the lip and be safe. You can also resort to using the Down B invincible edge grabbing.
So folks... here's a TL:DR for those of you who felt like not reading it all like a BAD, BAD PERSON!
TL:DR
- MK's first and second Uairs are invincible.
-You cannot punish, or grab the edge, from MK if you are onstage and shield his Uair.
- If you powershield his Uair, the only thing you are guaranteed is to be able to steal the edge from him assuming your fingers are quick enough.
- If you steal the edge from him, he is guaranteed safety either through using tornado to get back onstage, Double Jumping back onstage, Reverse Shuttle Loop, etc.
- His multiple jumps dictates FULLY how things will pan out against every character in the game.
- Frame-wise, even MK in the ditto has a hard time punishing his copy from planking.
- Projectiles are not good at stopping planking. MK is invincible for too long unfortunately for them to be useful, or he simply has too many solid options against them that prevents them from being useful.
- Once the MK learns to fast fall his Uair at the correct time, any options you have against him are invalidated as far as punishment is concerned. The same thing applies when he learns the correct height to hover at while planking.
- From a technical perspective, his planking is unbeatable and "reasonably unbeatable" at the Human Level. I say that because it's slightly easier (although still technically impossible even under the human realm) to try and stop his planking when you factor in Human Limits. HOWEVER, the same applies to the defender. He, even when given the benefit of the doubt, cannot stop planking framewise. His job now becomes a lot harder to accomplish if he is off by even a TAD on his timing for his actions like shield drop, and edge snap/punishment attempt/powershield attempt.
So there you have it folks. MK's planking, concerning Frame Data, IS unstoppable on theoretical terms, and STILL unstoppable on realistic Human terms. Framewise, MK can either prevent you from grabbing the edge safely/before him, or if you do he can escape to safety and repeat the process with no risk. I know some people feel that "Oh well if you know what the MK wants to do, you can read him and stop it Dawg", but the frame data doesn't lie. Even if you know and react perfectly to what he wants to do, his planking is unbeatable concerning Frames.
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OKIE DOKIE LET'S MOVE ON TO G&W:
Mr. Game And Watch is considered by many as a clear top 3 planking character, if not the second best planker in the game next to MK. He has an interesting Uair with a nice windbox, a nice Nair that pokes in odd and hard to cover places, and a high priority Upb with a few invincibility frames near the beginning.
Pros:
- Invincibility on the Upb near the beginning is nice
- Aerials cover a lot of range for a long duration
- Windbox on Uair allows him a lot of flexibility and tricks on dealing with certain projectiles and occasionally keeping people at bay
Cons:
- He has much much more noticeable cooldown lag/vulnerable frames after an aerial than MK
- He loses invincibility before any single one of his aerials end
- His Upb, if you grab the edge right as he uses it, leaves him at quite a noticeable frame disadvantage
If you want more info on G&W's overall frame data, here's a thread of his frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189251
Now onto his planking data.
Nair:
1-6 Startup
7-10 First Hitbox
12-15 Second Hitbox
17-20 Third Hitbox
22-25 4th and Final Hitbox
26-34 is cooldown
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -8
Optimal shield drop advantage: -1
Briefly, what this means is that even if G&W does a Nair as fast as possible, he loses invincibility cleanly before the last hit comes out. This leaves him very vulnerable, especially considering that a lot of times G&W players like to drop down first (which eats up invincibility frames) a decent height, and then rise with a Nair. This means that depending on where they are when they decide to try a rising Nair, you can expect their remaining invincibility to basically shrink in half or further.
Technically, if you shield the last hit of Nair, you cannot punish it unless you have a good Upb OOS or he gets sloppy and allows you to shield grab him lol. G&W's Nair lasts so long that he either has to use it earlier than he wants to maintain as much invincibility as possible, or he waits and spaces it better to make it much harder for you to punish with an Upb OOS as he will be lower than if he used it early. So he has to trade off invincibility quite a bit if he wants to space the Nair well to try and avoid punishment. Now if he waits, and you steal the edge from him which is quite feasible as his aerials can't stop the faster edge snapping characters and it will take him some frames to drop down the necessary height, then you neutralize his Nair and Uair.
Uair:
1-5 Startup
6-7 Hitbox out
8-19
20-21 Hitbox out
22-39 Aerial cooldown
Shield stun (both hits): 1
Here G&W loses invincibility right around the second hit (if he isn't frame perfect, he loses it before the second hitbox). If he wants to drop down a bit to use his Uair, as you can probably imagine his remaining invincibility window shrinks. G&W's Uair is unique, in that it has a Windbox covering a fairly large area. However, the cooldown lag he suffers GREATLY hampers his ability to abuse the Windbox the best he can.
Because of the cooldown lag he suffers, you can safely shield the attack and grab the edge before he can with most characters except the slowest of the slowest of edge snap characters. If you are fast, have a good downwards aerial, you can try to punish him either OOS or run off and use the aerial (if you shield drop you have a smaller margin, but still doable).
SOOOOOO this translates into:
G&W grabs the edge (Frame 1-24 stuck)
First frame available for a ledge specific action (Frame 25)
First frame available for you to drop down from the edge (Frame 26)
G&W using an aerial (Frame 32 Uair would come out, Frame 33 Nair would come out. These all assume you are using the aerial as soon as possible, falling from the edge)
Frame 46 is the last frame of invincibility. It occurs before the end of any of G&W's single aerials end. Frame 46 translates into Frame 20 of his attack assuming he uses it as soon as possible falling from the edge. So his last frame of invincibility is on frame 20 of any of his aerials. That would be the last part of hit #3 on Nair, and on Uair right as his second Uair hitbox first comes out.
G&W's attacks also have some startup. There is enough time for the faster edge snappers out there to edge snap the ledge before his aerial could come out. Not only that, but technically if you edge hog as late as possible before the first hitbox of either Uair or Nair comes out, you still have a frame advantage on him.
Upb:
1-8 Startup
9-29 Hitbox out
30-33 Parachute appears
33-48* Cooldown
Landing lag: 41
Invincibility: 5-13
Soonest ledge grab: 15
* means you can cancel the parachute animation on frame 41 into an aerial. You still have to factor in how long the aerial takes for the first hitbox to come out on top of those 41 frames.
This means G&W cannot grab the edge with complete invincibility like Shiek could. It's close, but no cigar. Him having to wait until he is positioned to grab it right on that frame does leave him open to practically every character to edge snap and punish him while he is still lagging. Even if he cancels his parachute with an aerial, he is still vulnerable for some time. If you grab it on frame 14, you can move off the edge on frame 39. If he cancels the parachute into an aerial, his fastest being Uair (which won't cover him very well lol as you are below him), the first hit won't come out until Frame 46. Nair would be 47, Bair would be 50, Dair would be 52.
If you grab the edge before frame 14 of his Upb, then your advantage obviously is larger. This is quite feasible as his Upb's active hitbox lasts basically for all of your remaining invincibility. If you grab the edge and his Upb hitbox comes out before you can first move off the edge, you are completely safe and depending on where he is wait to punish him, stand up, drop down and hit him, etc.
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PIT! (General Info)
He loses invincibility before any of his aerials end
He is vulnerable snapping to the edge with Upb/is not fully invincible even when doing it immediately
He may lose or is just about to lose invincibility if he wants to shoot an arrow at you and assuming he does it fast
I am not 100% sure, but I believe you can edge snap before his Uair starts? If it starts frame 7 or later, then yes this is quite feasible assuming you move as they move.
SO NOW YOU KNOW! If you have Questions, go ahead and ask. If you have suggestions on how to improve stuff (Font Color, Font Size, maybe a table of Contents/quick summary at the top, etc). While I have provided a ton of info here, I may not have explained everything the best as possible, or encompassed every tid bit as possible. Which means it's your job to ask away so I can cover EVERY EVERY thing. Like I said earlier, I will do this with G&W/Pit/potentially a few others to demonstrate how their planking works.
