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Pit Matchup Listing

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Coffee™

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If Pit is going to run away, I want to know how he's going to KO Zelda. I also want to know how Sheik's speed is such an advantage here while Zelda's power is not. We're not fighting you on Bridge of Eldin. Where is Pit going to run to so Zelda can't catch him? He glides quickly, but his running speed and his aerial mobility aren't blindingly fast. Running away only helps when he has a lead, but really... where is he running off to? Maybe you meant he's playing defensive, which is different to me than running away.
Playing defensively is exactly what I meant.

You pull an arrow out, and I'll 1) throw Din's at you (or the ground in case I get hit so it'll still detonate)
Why would Pit shoot an arrow at Zelda at a range that he would be in harms way of a detonating Din's Fire? He would have to fairly close to Zelda for that happen regardless, considering the speed of both projectiles, and honestly if he's that close he shouldn't be shooting arrows at all.

2) wait a bit and Nayru's, because the reflector lasts a long time and it isn't impossible to react to when the arrows will come out
The majority of the time the reflector isn't going to be very practical as arrows can be curved or shot from a SH which means they will be no threat to Pit if reflected, and either way Zelda's reflector isn't fast enough to completely stop arrows if they are being shot continuously.

or 3) powershield the stupid thing
This is honestly the best option

She generally has more range, more killing power (and no, don't tell me that being lighter than Pit means Pit has more killing power, because Zelda is killing pretty much everyone she faces soon, and her most potent killers that don't involve meteors happen to be the strongest aerials in the game)
Noone is saying Pit has more killing potential or anything because of Zelda's weight, obviously that wouldn't be true, but Zelda is however still relatively light and Pit has decent ko potential considering how fast he racks up damage so koing her directly shouldn't be some incredibly difficult task.

I know Pit has some quick moves up close, but with dtilt, Dsmash, and Fsmash alone, I can pretty much beat out every other ground move he has. If you decide to start taking to the air against me, well, Usmash, ftilt, and utilt will be there to answer, with more range (enough to hit Pit before he hits her or a trade), a lot more power, and definitely more speed. What significant advantage does Pit have here?
Zelda has more range over Pit yes, but from the way you're posting, you're making it sound like if Pit is going to be running in blindingly approachig you everytime but the simple truth is that he won't be. Zelda is extremely good as a defensive character but Pit takes her out of that comfort zone by making her approach him.

Zelda can't play against Pit the way she would play against most other characters and to deviate from her normal defensive playstyle to a more aggressive one to fight against a character that aims to capatalize on other characters approaching him is not going to be a favourable position for her to be in.

Forcing an airdodge/other predicted reaction? Yes, because nobody wants to get hit by them. Killing you? Ooooh you betcha. Of all of this, the OoS responses and the killing power are the main things we're looking into for this aspect, since making a mistake is a player's fault, not a character's.
Forcing predicted responses is something thats applicable with every character and as you said it based more so on the players than the characters but if you want to go that route, what tools does Zelda have that make her better at this in this matchup than Pit simply firing arrows at her to force some responses.

When it comes to edgeguarding, I'd give Pit a slight advantage here. Zelda's recovery is not the best. Pit should wait on the stage and fire arrows to harrass her and then punish when she warps. Going off stage can lose your advantage since she can warp past Pit. Zelda can stop your glide with ease, so just don't glide and you should be ok.
Very true.

Gliding against Zelda is just asking for trouble. Returning to the stage with just your jumps while firing arrows to prevent potential Din's Fires is simply the best way to go about recovering.

Overall, this fight is pretty much even. CPs will be what will sway this fight.
I still disagree. I believe CPs like LM will help sway the matchup more so in Zelda's favor because of the amount of stuff she gaings there but thats what CPs are supposed to do right? And aside from LM I don't think she really has much other really advantageous counterpicks

I'm not trying to start trouble or anything, but seriously, I looked at the match-ups you guys have listed on the first page and could not stay silent.
Thats fine, neither are we. The chart is going to be completely accurate at first go, but thats what debates are for.
 

Brinzy

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Why would Pit shoot an arrow at Zelda at a range that he would be in harms way of a detonating Din's Fire? He would have to fairly close to Zelda for that happen regardless, considering the speed of both projectiles, and honestly if he's that close he shouldn't be shooting arrows at all.
He probably will not get hit by Din's, but what I do against people who lack extremely powerful projectiles is jump and throw Din's at the ground. This forces a shield/dodge and it gives me the time I need to close in from long distance. I didn't mean up close.

The majority of the time the reflector isn't going to be very practical as arrows can be curved or shot from a SH which means they will be no threat to Pit if reflected, and either way Zelda's reflector isn't fast enough to completely stop arrows if they are being shot continuously.
Reflecting doesn't always have to result in hitting Pit. Nayru's reflective properties last, I believe, 39 frames frames, I believe. I wouldn't shield for this long because it would wear down and get me stabbed. I wouldn't spotdodge because Pit can take advantage of that. Nayru's is mainly a longer spotdodge for projectiles. She could be hit by another arrow, but the reflector comes out on Frame 4, so it's a good thing for me to use if I'm airborne.


Noone is saying Pit has more killing potential or anything because of Zelda's weight, obviously that wouldn't be true, but Zelda is however still relatively light and Pit has decent ko potential considering how fast he racks up damage so koing her directly shouldn't be some incredibly difficult task.
That was me being preemptive; many people think that their characters have a greater killing power than Zelda does because she's light.

Zelda has more range over Pit yes, but from the way you're posting, you're making it sound like if Pit is going to be running in blindingly approachig you everytime but the simple truth is that he won't be. Zelda is extremely good as a defensive character but Pit takes her out of that comfort zone by making her approach him.

Zelda can't play against Pit the way she would play against most other characters and to deviate from her normal defensive playstyle to a more aggressive one to fight against a character that aims to capatalize on other characters approaching him is not going to be a favourable position for her to be in.
This is where my qualm with Pit lies. There's a certain distance where Zelda is forced to approach... and then there's the distance where neither character can hit each other with anything but their projectiles. I do not believe Pit is forcing an approach here. He can't effectively wall her out because his multi-hit moves aren't really walling her, nor are his more powerful moves (Fsmash, bair). Playing defensively helps him, but I don't believe that Pit's defensive game at that distance is significantly threatening to Zelda unless she's in KO range.

There are, in my opinion, three parts of approaching - long-distance approaching, close quarters approaching, and offensicely approaching. Excuse my jargon, but I don't know anything else to call those.

Long-distance - Pit has arrows and will probably force Zelda to close in here.


Close quarters - This is where a lot of people underestimate Zelda, in my opinion. Her poorest area of approach is when she's trying to use an attack/grab when you're playing defensively. However, when both characters can't hit each other, I do not see why Pit is forcing Zelda to do anything.

He's too close to use his arrows safely. They can be reflected right back to him, Din's can trade here, and if it's really poorly spaced, Zelda can punish with an A attack. His Side B might catch her off guard, but if I'm not mistaken, attacking the spinning part will still harm him. If this is false, then I guess this is a bit safer than I thought (since dair is not lethal on Pit when he's grounded). His attacks aren't reaching and he doesn't move that quickly in the air. I don't see why Zelda should be making an approach significantly more than Pit here.


Offensive approaching - Here's Zelda's poor area. Approaching with fair/bair isn't safe. Extremely high risk, high reward. She won't be seeing that reward too often, though. Shielded, she's ridiculously vulnerable to counterattacks. Nair is her best approaching aerial here. Decent, but not really dangerous. She can also try empty shorthops or buffering to use her ground moves, but she's not in her best position when she's on the offense like this.

However, she can also approach on the ground. Jab has very low cooldown and has a pretty much guranteed dash attack follow-up if you get hit by it. Ftilt has AMAZING range and only trades with Pit's dair - everything else gets beaten out. Fsmash, if shielded, is safe. Dtilt is pretty safe as well, but fast reaction can punish it... but I don't know how fast Pit's moves are. Anything else isn't really used for approaching.

Pit has to predict what Zelda is going to do for the most part. Fsmash is the only ground move that can be reliably reacted to by normal people. Ftilt and her grab can also be reacted to, but you have to be quick. Everything else is prediction based. He's really not all that safe from her if she can reach him because she can outrange or beat out his aerials, even if she's playing smart with them. If she must be in the air against him, she's still outranging him. Lightning kicks will trade with or beat Pit's aerials, sadly.

All in all, her approach game isn't better against Pit, naturally, but I can't see what Pit does to her that makes approaching even harder for her. Pit's Fmshas is very good against her. In fact, the best way to deal with Zelda is to use moves that last a while or are multi-hit, but Zelda can deal with his aerials.


Forcing predicted responses is something thats applicable with every character and as you said it based more so on the players than the characters but if you want to go that route, what tools does Zelda have that make her better at this in this matchup than Pit simply firing arrows at her to force some responses.
There is nothing. This was me being preemptive again, for people who think they'll never get hit by her aerials. Not applicable to this.

I still disagree. I believe CPs like LM will help sway the matchup more so in Zelda's favor because of the amount of stuff she gaings there but thats what CPs are supposed to do right? And aside from LM I don't think she really has much other really advantageous counterpicks
I do not know Pit's good stages.

Halberd
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Corneria
Castle Siege
 

Coffee™

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He probably will not get hit by Din's, but what I do against people who lack extremely powerful projectiles is jump and throw Din's at the ground. This forces a shield/dodge and it gives me the time I need to close in from long distance. I didn't mean up close.
I suppose this would work against most characters with weak projectiles given that most other projectiles travel on a set trajectory. But in this kind of situation Pit can simply jump backwards and fire an arrow at Zelda. This would prevent Dins from hitting him as well as prevent Zelda for directing the Dins at him at all. I'd assume Falco could also stop her in a similar way.


Reflecting doesn't always have to result in hitting Pit. Nayru's reflective properties last, I believe, 39 frames frames, I believe. I wouldn't shield for this long because it would wear down and get me stabbed. I wouldn't spotdodge because Pit can take advantage of that. Nayru's is mainly a longer spotdodge for projectiles. She could be hit by another arrow, but the reflector comes out on Frame 4, so it's a good thing for me to use if I'm airborne.
True, but you have to realise that Pit also has the option of simply charging the arrow to bait out Nayru and then proceed to shoot you.

Close quarters - This is where a lot of people underestimate Zelda, in my opinion. Her poorest area of approach is when she's trying to use an attack/grab when you're playing defensively. However, when both characters can't hit each other, I do not see why Pit is forcing Zelda to do anything.
I'm not sure exactly how close you're looking at, but if Pit and Zelda can't hit each other with anything but projectiles but are yet at a range that would (i'm guessing) be more advantageous to Zelda's projectile wouldn't the Pit players main priority be retreating with either a Fair, Arrow or Nair?

His Side B might catch her off guard, but if I'm not mistaken, attacking the spinning part will still harm him. If this is false, then I guess this is a bit safer than I thought (since dair is not lethal on Pit when he's grounded).
Attacking the spinning part doesn't hurt Pit as it's a disjointed attack.

His attacks aren't reaching and he doesn't move that quickly in the air. I don't see why Zelda should be making an approach significantly more than Pit here.
I think Zelda would be more pressed to make the approach here though, since if given the option it'll probably be more advantageous for Pit to simply retreat back to a range where he is safer.

However, she can also approach on the ground. Jab has very low cooldown and has a pretty much guranteed dash attack follow-up if you get hit by it. Ftilt has AMAZING range and only trades with Pit's dair - everything else gets beaten out. Fsmash, if shielded, is safe. Dtilt is pretty safe as well, but fast reaction can punish it... but I don't know how fast Pit's moves are. Anything else isn't really used for approaching.
Pit can use Nair OoS on pretty much any of her attacks once he's good with timing since it comes out on frame 2. Dtilt comes out on either frame 6 or 7, the same as his grab iirc and I believe Jab is frame 4 so i'm assuming he can do any of those once he's close enough to capatalize on Zelda's cooldown time.

Pit has to predict what Zelda is going to do for the most part. Fsmash is the only ground move that can be reliably reacted to by normal people. Ftilt and her grab can also be reacted to, but you have to be quick. Everything else is prediction based. He's really not all that safe from her if she can reach him because she can outrange or beat out his aerials, even if she's playing smart with them. If she must be in the air against him, she's still outranging him. Lightning kicks will trade with or beat Pit's aerials, sadly.
Zelda does outrange Pit but you have to remember his aerials are disjointed and moves like Dair and Fair will beat out her moves if space appropriately.

All in all, her approach game isn't better against Pit, naturally, but I can't see what Pit does to her that makes approaching even harder for her. Pit's Fmshas is very good against her. In fact, the best way to deal with Zelda is to use moves that last a while or are multi-hit, but Zelda can deal with his aerials.
A lot of people really understimate Pit's ground game, he's actually a pretty balanced character as far as a ground / air game comparison is concerned. Pit works well as a reactive character. If Pit's Fsmash is going to be good against her based on it's range and OoS capabilities then Dtilt, Jab and Dsmash are also going to work really well against her, especially Jab and Dtilt since Pit has a decent amount of follow ups after each move.

I do not know Pit's good stages.

Halberd
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Corneria
Castle Siege
I keep forgetting stages like these are counterpicks, mostly because not much people use them but they would all be good CPs against Pit aside from Halberd which is actually a very good Pit stage.
 

Kataefi

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Look Maniac I think successor is the last man standing. You've managed to outquote all of us. Keep the matchup pit's advantage and don't feel sorry for the angel if he dies at ridiculously low percents against her. All in all, the more elusive we keep the princess the more impressive it looks when a good player of hers comes along and wins.

Just some advice pit players - try not to attack her shield, he's tall enough to be hit by both bair and fair out of shield and outright kills him, and that's something quite devastating if she takes you passed 60%.

EDIT:: and our matchup thread will not be saying 60:40 Pit.
 

Coffee™

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Dude, what is your problem? I'm just having a clean debate with Successor, nothing like what happened before with who ever it was in your boards, Sonic the Hedgedawg and someone else. He seems to have a bit more sense than those posters so I feel more inclined to listen to his opinion.

Coming here and saying things like your above post and your previous sarcastic comment won't get anyone anywhere. Board matchup threads differ all the time and people have different opinions, if your matchup thread says 50:50 then fine whatever, it's not my place to decide what your board puts up, and based on the posts from some of the member's I've seen there I really don't care.
 

Kataefi

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We gave you clear and concise arguments as we did on the zelda boards - you've also heard from countless other players on this thread that the matchup is not 60:40 pit's advantage, with reasons.

It seems to me like you're the only one governing these numbers and I believe there are some numbers here where the matchup has actually yet to be discussed!

This is why your thread is attracting a lot of criticism from other boards. I actually felt obliged to be sarcastic because nothing seems to be getting through to you.
 

Coffee™

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No you didn't. On the Zelda boards I got a lot of information that was easily debated against, and I'm not the only one that thought so, even if I may have been the only one that posted there.

In this thread only you MrEh and Successor are ones stating it isn't Pit's advanatge, also if you would have read through the thread you would see that even if I disagree with people I still change the chart to suit. Some matchups like the Sonic and Falco ones haven't been changed because I simply didn't have the time, but you act like if I think my word is law.

I ask about and debate matchups because I don't want to be changing the chart on a random whim.

And as far as other board's criticism is concerned, please...show me a matchup chart that everyone agrees with and doesn't attract criticism from other boards / members.
 

Kataefi

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The best advice in your situation? - get this thread locked, start your matchups from the very beginning, and ultimately have your matchup discussions in a way that isn't as confusing and disorganised as it is here. Best not to list matchups you havn't discussed, you don't want to mislead pit players.
 

Coffee™

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Why should this be locked?

There is another matchup thread where matchups are actually discussed, as I said in the OP, this is just a side project I wanted to do, and tbh I don't see how it is confusing and disorganised in any way as the description of how to read it is listed in the OP.

And if you look inside the other matchup thread, matchup ratings are only given to matchups that have been done. There is no harm in listing matchups that haven't been done as this thread gives people a place to discuss matchups that haven't been reached yet.

EDIT: Updated the chart
 

Admiral Pit

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I accidently Edited my whole post and summary of the Pit Zelda matchup. A reminder that I use both chars, and faced many Zeldas, including Doppelganger's.
I may have to fix this again. Now, enough of this argument!


Comparing (basic info)
-Zelda is slower, but stronger, we covered this!
-Pit is faster, but weaker in KO power, again we covered this!
-Both got reflectors, but only Zelda's can reflect in a 360 degree Radius. Pit's reflectors are multi-functional.
-Both have problems in their recoveries
Pit is vulnerable to Din's Fire when in his Up-B,
Zelda's recovery sometimes can be hard to angle, and it may make her vulnerable to attacks. Pit being able to shoot arrows at her at good speed is also a problem, even though she can use her reflector to stop the arrows, or airdodge.

Ground: Zelda beats Pit on the ground hands down, for not only does she have some strong moves, but she also outanges Pit. One of Pit's bigger problems is that he has a hard time approaching chars that have a longer range than him, and since Zelda is one of over half the cast that outrange Pit, he'll already have difficulties in the matchup.

Air: Both characters are good in the air.
Pit would slightly be better. Zelda may be stronger, but 3 outta 5 of her aerials are brutal from a sweetspot that's sometimes hard to connect. Those moves can be punished greatly if missed or not sweetspotted, and the D-air will only sweetspot when opponent is in the air. Pit has a variety of moves, from 2 multi-hit moves, and an "easy to sweetspot" kill move.

Edgeguarding: Pit has much more choices when edgeguarding, from shooting arrows to Mirror Shield gimps (this generally wont work on Zelda, even though it can, it's pointless), to straight aerial pursuit, and your standard Edgehogging.

KO Statistics:
Zelda KO power wins, though Pit's weak KO power + Zelda's light weight balance it out, though I still say Zelda is a bit better here for having much more KO moves.




Restrictions:
-Pit is besically resitrcted from using Gliding in the matchup, especially when trying to recover. Din's Fire will knock him outta glide with the large blast radius. Even more so, Zelda's Usmash and U-tilt will get Pit if he tries to perform a glide attack. He Should NOT glide at all in this matchup. This degrades Pit's recovery options in the matchup because of this,

-Pit does bad when he's above the opponent, for his D-air or Airdodge are his main options. Zelda's long-lasting Usmash and U-tilt can stop Pit in his tracks. Never and I mean NEVER approach Zelda from above. Pit can trouble Zelda when he's below her, but Zelda's moves are better in this situation.

-Zelda can't be as defensive as she could be since Pit has a projectile and reflector of his own. She's vulnerable when using Din's fire, though Zelda can angle it at the ground in hopes to hit Pit while he's shooting her.
Pit generally, sometimes, can force a Zelda to approach.
Pit's reflector and projectile existance will weaken Din's fire offense, except the "Gimp Pit outta Up-B with Din's Fire" part.

-Pit can't ledgecamp against Zelda as good as he can against some other chars since Zelda has a reflector and a projectile of her own. Also, since Zelda outranges Pit, she can strike Pit from the distance she needs, even if a Pit would try to use a move (Ex: F-air) while on the ledge. Plus, D-smash would stop Pit when timed right.

-Zelda is light, and therefore Pit can't Chaingrab Zelda. Good DI will Ensure that Pit cant grab her a 2nd time.



Here a few stages that can change the matchup

-Yoshi's Island: Zelda's advantage, for Pit's arrows can be blocked by Shy guys and he cant glide under the stage.
-Green Greens: The stage boundaries are so close to the platform, and Zelda can KO Pit so quickly. This doesn't mean that Pit cant KO either, but Zelda just does it better.
-Jungle Japes: Pit can shoot arrows while his opponent is trapped on the water tide. He can continue shooting and hitting resulting in KOs. The high boundaries also degrade Zelda's Vertical KO ability. This is Pit's advantage.
-Mansion: Zelda wins. Pit cant camp here effectively especially with the mansion in tact, and cant glide under the stage. He can also be trapped in a series of Usmashes with the Ceiling.
-Norfair: This was generally Pit's advantage.
-Lylat: I only say this is Pit's advantage because the Tilting stage affects Zelda's recovery more than it does Pit's.

Correct me if Im wrong
Mania, Change the matchup to 50-50, I know what I'm talking about! Zelda boards, try not to spam here, Im not saying you are, but try to avoid doing so.

EDIT: May have to update since I accidently erased it. You know how long it took me to rethink and retype this!?
 

TheOgbot

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I have to say that Admiral Pit's insight on the matchup seems very well informed, and it's got a lot of evidence working towards his conclusion. I myself am not sure about how Zelda works in a fight, nor do I fight a lot of Zeldas, but his reasoning makes perfect sense.

50-50 gets my vote.
 

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No offense to admiral, but he hasn't really said anything that Successor hasn't said in his initial post here. And there are a few things in his post that are slightly wrong like Pit being inable to ledgecamp Zelda. She has more options against it in comparison to most characters, but its not like she's impervious to it because of the reasons he's mentioned.
 

Rogue Pit

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Pit wins against zelda only, wins against shiek but is in a slight disadvantage against the damage with shiek, KO with zelda stradegy.
 

Admiral Pit

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-Pit can't ledgecamp against Zelda as good as he can against some other chars

Mania, I know what I'm talking about here!
 

Kyuubi9t

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Zelda generally beats Pit on the ground but lets also remember that several of pit's moves pop the opponent in the air, and zelda has a heavy disadvantage when above pit (most chars do). Also, Pit's grab AND throws are better, and enable positioning for combos. Zelda players with good DI and who take preventive measures to ensure that they arent comboed will be the ones winning in this match, but may have problems racking up damage. Pit players who can draw wiffed attacks (for example, tricky or approaching SHs with arrows directed to hit zelda if a no NL is anticipated, then shooting one and missing on purpose to draw a failed NL. close the gap and punish ending lag.) and punish with devastating combos would win the match. Since it all depends on the player, im gonna say 50-50 too.

I think that the more frantic shiek-pit matchup is slightly in pit's advantage, though sheik can rack damage effeciently, and the switch between the two could leave zelda vulnerable. Sheik is the weakest link, bringing my opinion of the overall matchup to 55-45 pit.

Also, maniac is making genuine attempts to advance pit's metagame and we all on the pit boards support him. We dont have many active and helpful members like him, so please refrain from using harsh tones on him; he is doing his best to satisfy everyone. His thread is encouraging heated and informative discussions... reaching a conclusion is a mere side achievement when compared to the important match-up knowledge that he is compelling you zelda mains and others to share. It is unfair to gang up on him, or to act like he isnt listening to anything you say as he continues to quote every single point that any of you make, and just because he doesnt change the matchup ratio right away after one or three zelda main complains doesnt mean that he never will.

Anyway this thread is a good read and this debate doesnt look finished so lets continue in a friendly and informative manner without making personal remarks to one another. Feel free to debate my few points as well.
 

Admiral Pit

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Yes, Pit can take Zelda into the air quickly with a variety of moves, from U-tilt to D-tilt to D-throw, U-throw and Usmash, but again, remember Pit has to get past Zelda's range which of course beats Pit's own poor range. Approaching is difficult due to the slight range advantage Zelda has, but even a small outrange can mean a big thing.
D-tilt or D-throw would be a recommended move to get Zelda in the air depending on the situation.
 

Brinzy

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I suppose this would work against most characters with weak projectiles given that most other projectiles travel on a set trajectory. But in this kind of situation Pit can simply jump backwards and fire an arrow at Zelda. This would prevent Dins from hitting him as well as prevent Zelda for directing the Dins at him at all. I'd assume Falco could also stop her in a similar way.
More often than not, Pit isn't going to get hit by Din's, so I cede this point.

True, but you have to realise that Pit also has the option of simply charging the arrow to bait out Nayru and then proceed to shoot you.
Right, he does. What I do against Pit is shield when I first see it. If it fires, I shouldn't get hit by it, either by my full shield or a powershield if I reacted to it a little late. Now, if Pit holds it by the second or third... I dunno, "bing" sound it makes when he holds it, I'll hit Nayru's. It lasts long enough to still have reflective properties even if Pit charges it all the way and I'm a sizeable distance away from him.

It is not expected to hit Pit unless he just positions himself poorly. However, it will keep Zelda safe as long as she's on the ground.


I'm not sure exactly how close you're looking at, but if Pit and Zelda can't hit each other with anything but projectiles but are yet at a range that would (i'm guessing) be more advantageous to Zelda's projectile wouldn't the Pit players main priority be retreating with either a Fair, Arrow or Nair?
I am ignorant as to how Pit specifically plays. If he's using aerials like that, then this is still close enough for Zelda to run in and punish. It isn't a guaranteed thing, though, so if I were in this position, I would move in to a distance where ftilt will reach you. Arrows are probably harder to punish but still easily dealt with.

The end result here is Zelda is not taking damage and getting into attack range.

Attacking the spinning part doesn't hurt Pit as it's a disjointed attack.
I see. I saw this video of an Olimar's Usmash hitting Pit right out of his Side B, so I was not sure.

I think Zelda would be more pressed to make the approach here though, since if given the option it'll probably be more advantageous for Pit to simply retreat back to a range where he is safer.
But wouldn't Zelda simply follow him? There's only so much stage he can use to back off.

Pit can use Nair OoS on pretty much any of her attacks once he's good with timing since it comes out on frame 2. Dtilt comes out on either frame 6 or 7, the same as his grab iirc and I believe Jab is frame 4 so i'm assuming he can do any of those once he's close enough to capatalize on Zelda's cooldown time.
He can use those, but she'd have to use something other than Fsmash and a very nicely spaced ftilt in order to be punished in the first place. Not saying it'll never happen, though.

Zelda does outrange Pit but you have to remember his aerials are disjointed and moves like Dair and Fair will beat out her moves if space appropriately.
How appropriate can he space them? He can retreat them, sure, but if both of them are spacing properly, Zelda should be landing more often because she'll be in range before Pit each time. He's going to have to start his moves ahead of time because Zelda operates on the tip of her aerials, which happen to have good range as well. Pit's dair is good as long as Zelda can't uair him.

A lot of people really understimate Pit's ground game, he's actually a pretty balanced character as far as a ground / air game comparison is concerned. Pit works well as a reactive character. If Pit's Fsmash is going to be good against her based on it's range and OoS capabilities then Dtilt, Jab and Dsmash are also going to work really well against her, especially Jab and Dtilt since Pit has a decent amount of follow ups after each move.
First off, I typed "Fmshas" and I feel like a horrible, horrible idiot.

Second, I named Fsmash because it's multi-hit and has good range. That's why I didn't give much credit to dtilt and Dsmash because they're not multi-hit as far as I'm concerned. You either have to be Ike, very fast, or have multi-hit moves to effectively keep Zelda away, but Pit is best at his multi-hit moves, which also happen to be his fastest ones. I can't really see what's especially threatening about his ground game to Zelda that isn't about as threatening as most other attacks in the game.


I keep forgetting stages like these are counterpicks, mostly because not much people use them but they would all be good CPs against Pit aside from Halberd which is actually a very good Pit stage.
Well ok then.
 

Aminar

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I play a fairly decent Zelda on a regular basis, and honestly the matchup is even. Zelda can kill real easy, and pit has a hard time outcamping, it comes to a standstill. Meanwhile neither character can approach effectively. Pit's ground game, while decent, is no match for Zelda's. In the air Pit has an advantage but one screw up and he gets Lightning kicked or Uaired for the kill. And Zelda isn't slow. She will kill easier. Pit needs to start most things with a grab or a dtilt.
 

MrEh

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For the Pit and Zelda matchup, this is all I'm going to say.


Have fun dying at 60% from a Lightning Kick.
 

CorruptFate

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Add a bit more if you wanta add to the discussion, saying a mid weight will die from someones best kill move that is hard to avoid, and whos attack move faster then the kick...really doesn't add much. Unless that means your only advice for a light weight is they die at 20%, add a little input like you have with your other posts.
 

Kataefi

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Lightning kicks have something known as 'cinematic' knockback as found out by Yuna where DI doesn't work. It either kills you flat out or you survive.

Pit could possibly die at 60% from the ledge, but more realistically we're looking at 70% or 75%+ onwards from the centre. He's also one of the few characters to be tall enough to be hit by her bair sweetspot OoS.

EDIT:: Admiral we've used your summary of the zelda/pit matchup in this thread.

If you want it taken off let me know =(
 

Admiral Pit

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Lightning kicks have something known as 'cinematic' knockback as found out by Yuna where DI doesn't work. It either kills you flat out or you survive.

Pit could possibly die at 60% from the ledge, but more realistically we're looking at 70% or 75%+ onwards from the centre. He's also one of the few characters to be tall enough to be hit by her bair sweetspot OoS.

EDIT:: Admiral we've used your summary of the zelda/pit matchup in this thread.

If you want it taken off let me know =(
I wish to change the Norfair section after browsing through.

"Norfair: 50-50 even to me. While This stage allows Zelda to reach from below platforms, it enhances Pit's stalling and camping game. Pit's Mirror Shield can also block 2 outta 4 of the lava hazards. However, Zelda can KO quickly when on the outer highest platforms. The platforms also allow Zelda to recover much better.
Note that smart and cunning Pits will use U-air often here and use the platforms to their advantage, so expect them to be "Sharking" below the platforms often with their U-airs."

Hope ppl will actually think I did good here. I put a lot of effort into this.
 

Kataefi

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No worries, I'll change that section ^^ and yes you did do good. We really appreciate the summary.
 

Cha0tic NiGhTmArE

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first off Mreh why are you still on here...your just trying to piss people off and get nothing accomplish..if you wanna vent get a therepist not a forum that isnt even for your char. anyway.. hey admiral or KY can either of you hook me up with the most effective way to play the G & W matchup(even thought that may not be very effective but it will still be better then my appraoch probably.and also admiral can you give me a list of chars. to stray away from using Wing Lungging against and or if i should use more sparingly or not.. thanks and all the angels rock..maniaclyrasist don't let that Mreh guy make you loose your head just let that guy be..thanks and all the angels rock
 

Admiral Pit

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You're goin to lose against Gay men Watch without the proper ways to fight em, but Sagemoon knows the matchup more than I do. He could probably inform you, wherever he is.
 

MrEh

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first off Mreh why are you still on here...your just trying to piss people off and get nothing accomplish..
No. If I wanted to piss people off, I would be banned by now.

You see, without debate, nothing would get done. And I believe if I didn't complain so much, DK would still be listed as a 70-30, which is so silly. (50-50 max IMO)


if you wanna vent get a therepist not a forum that isnt even for your char.
I don't believe I've said one angry statement in this entire topic. And if I remember correctly, this board isn't here exclusively for Pit mains. As long as I'm civil, I have just as much right to be here as you do.
 

CorruptFate

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MrEh is right, I have been watching just to see if anything does cross the line and if it turns from a debate to a fight. And despite the fact that he is debating this alone he has keeped it civil and the only people that really seem to be trying to start a fight, are those who want him to leave because he has a different idea about what is being discussed.
 

Coffee™

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Nothing is wrong with MrEh's posting aside from his very apparent sarcasm when trying to discuss anything. I've ignored it and I simply suggest everyone else do the same.

And I believe if I didn't complain so much, DK would still be listed as a 70-30, which is so silly. (50-50 max IMO)
Your complaints never made me change the DK matchup. I changed it on the account that I made a mistake putting it as a +4 in the first placed as I myself misunderstood some of the information on the chart. In fact your posts actually only made me change the Bowser matchup iirc.
 

Coffee™

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Looks like I have more complaining to do then.
I doubt it will get you far.

Either way I'm curious as to which characters you actually play since you seem to have an opinion on every matchup in brawl :dizzy:
 

MrEh

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The chart shows +2 to pit, im assuming thats like 60:40 pit advantage, which I will agree with on the match of Pit vs Bowser.
I still think it's too low.

By "low," I mean "low for Pit."

I still stand by what I said before. The matchup should be 90-10 in Pit's favor. XD


Jokes aside though, I really think it's 55-45, but that difference between that and 60-40 is so minor that it's really not worth talking about.
 

Admiral Pit

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I should ban all jokes so Pit's matchups could finally be progressed in a proper manner.

Anyways, I'll probably summarize Pit dittos later ONLY because there are times where you'll be fighting your own character, and you may not know how to counter "Yourself" and I've noticed that that's some problems that some recent Pits that I've faced had, some other Pit problems. We all know it's 50/50 regardless.
Plus it would probably make us unique for discussing our own character's "Ditto" Match.
 

Coffee™

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As of now I'm a bit more interested in what people think of the ZSS matchup.
 
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