Pit Matchup Listing

[Afropony]

It was actually a pretty good read on how bowsers play...

 

[rinoH]

nice thread

 

[ROOOOY!]

Maniacly, we've discussed the Pit v Sonic match up twice within the last few months, second time as recently as 2 or 3 weeks ago and agreed it on neutral each time, yet you've got it as Pit's advantage here.

???????

 

[Coffee™]

Maniacly, we've discussed the Pit v Sonic match up twice within the last few months, second time as recently as 2 or 3 weeks ago and agreed it on neutral each time, yet you've got it as Pit's advantage here.

???????

I listed it as Pit's adv for now because none of those matchup discussions actually came to a final conclusion and the ratio was still debated by members of both boards, and after discussion the matchup with a few Pit mains before the chart was actually made most of them generally agreed to a 60:40. However I do believe it's time the matchup ratio for this was settled anyway.

The Pit boards are doing the MK matchup atm, but I will make a seperate thread shortly with which the Sonic matchup can be discussed and hopefully sorted out.

 

[MrEh]

Either way I still find it hard to believe the match is anything less than a 60:40.

A lot of people find it hard to believe that Bowser is even close to decent. That's a common misconception though.

You list a lot of the positives of Bowser but most of them just don't apply that much in the matchup.

Bowser has lots of attributes that make it an annoying fight for Pit. Extreme weight makes him difficult to KO, especially since Pit has killing issues. Fortress OoS stops improperly spaced and close ranged approaches. Ftilts can stop aerial approaches and attack Pit from a distance. All of them have been discussed to death, but all of them apply.

Bowser does great as a defensive character there is no doubting that but the problem here is that Pit forces him to approach and lets face it, naturally defensive characters don't like to approach and Bowser is no exception.

If Bowser approaches with good spacing, this shouldn't be a glaring disadvantage. (if is a disadvantage though)

Bowser's general approach is also fairly predictable. He can't really approach with anything but Fair, Ftilt, Dtilt and I guess Jab but it's not really that hard for Pit to stop these approaches as well as capitalize of the lag of some of these attacks.

Bowser will never approach with an Fair. Ftilt and Jab approaches are common, or Klaw approaches. And Pit can't punish if Bowser spaces well. Really, Bowser's jab outranges Pit's Fsmash, if that means anything.

As Adm said with good DI on Bowser's part unless he is gimped which is indeed fairly plausible he is going to generally survive till around 150-175% but in turn Pit needs to around 120% before he is dying from any of Bowser's kill moves aside from Fsmash, this is assuming Pit being hit from the middle of FD and it is going to be a lot easier for Pit to build up 150-175% than it is for Bowser to build up 120-130%.

No arguments here.

Bowser has some nice things on Pit like his grab release shenanigans and the Forretress OoS but I just don't think much of the these contribute to pulling the matchup to be in only in favor of Pit as 55:45

I actually think it's the range advantage that makes the matchup better for Bowser. Arrows and Fire aside, Bowser outranges Pit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pit neither has the advantage over Snake (whom he loses against) nor Wolf (whom he goes even with). Overall I find these match-up's hard to believe...only 5 disadvantages.

I think Kirby has a slight advantage...once he copies the arrows he gimps you with ease. I also think TL and Lucario migh have a small advantage.

 

[Coffee™]

Are there any other notable changes that should be made?

 

[cj.Shark]

Pit neither has the advantage over Snake (whom he loses against) nor Wolf (whom he goes even with). Overall I find these match-up's hard to believe...only 5 disadvantages.

I think Kirby has a slight advantage...once he copies the arrows he gimps you with ease. I also think TL and Lucario migh have a small advantage.

snake gets ***** by ledgecamping so hard you wouldnt believe it
just watch a few vids of danny (pit) vs afrothunder. trust me after watching 6 games for a total of 50 minutes youll see why snakes were willing to give us the matchup advantage.

 

[Kyuubi9t]

Are there any other notable changes that should be made?

i honestly feel like we have a disadvantage against falco. Also i think we have a slight advantage against toon link

 

[MrEh]

Oh, and your advantage of Jiggs is too high.

No way Jiggs loses that hard, especially since she gimps so darn well.

 

[Coffee™]

I'd like to not sound biased here but I don't see how Jigglypuff can cause much trouble in this matchup. She has problems scoring gimps against any character with multiple jumps, aside from like Charizard and possibly Dedede, is out spaced and outprioritized in the air and on the ground and is extremely light, so it isn't hard to KO her.

 

[MrEh]

She has problems scoring gimps against any character with multiple jumps, aside from like Charizard and possibly Dedede, is out spaced and outprioritized in the air and on the ground and is extremely light, so it isn't hard to KO her.

Jigglypuff can bait with her aerial manuverability, and counteratack with an aerial.

Jigglypuff can actually rest though your Nair, Uair, and Jab.

 

[Coffee™]

Jigglypuff can bait with her aerial manuverability, and counteratack with an aerial.

"Mindgames / baiting" are applicable to every character, if you don't fall for it, then it doesn't work.

Jigglypuff can actually rest though your Nair, Uair, and Jab.

Resting through attacks like that always going to be risky and dependant on the situation as well as how they are actually hit with the move; whiff it and they get punished with a fully charged smash.

 

[MrEh]

"Mindgames / baiting" are applicable to every character, if you don't fall for it, then it doesn't work.

Jigglypuff baits very well in the air because of her aerial movement speed. Highest in the game as long as we're not counting Yoshi. Compared to pit, who moves very slow in the air, it's a considerable advantage.

well as how they are actually hit with the move

Simple.

You Uair, Nair, or Jab.

Jiggs SDIs into you.

Jiggs uses Rest.

 

[Coffee™]

Baiting is baiting regardless of her air movement. What I said initially still applies. If you do not fall for the bait then it does not work. And besides, baiting someone is more player affiliated than it is character affiliated thus it's going to be player dependant.

As for Uair, and Nair you aren't rooted to one spot if you use them. You can DI in what direction you please while using them and as i stated before, if Jiggs whiffs the rest then she is simply going to get punished. As far as Jab is concerned that only really works on the Infinite Jab. If you know that being hit with a Rest is a possibility then simply don't do the Infinite Jab.

 

[MrEh]

Baiting is baiting regardless of her air movement. What I said initially still applies. If you do not fall for the bait then it does not work. And besides, baiting someone is more player affiliated than it is character affiliated thus it's going to be player dependant.

It's not so much the baiting as it is simply that Jiggs moves much faster then Pit. That's all.

As for Uair, and Nair you aren't rooted to one spot if you use them. You can DI in what direction you please while using them and as i stated before, if Jiggs whiffs the rest then she is simply going to get punished.

Whether or not Pit DIs while using the Uair or Nair makes no difference. Jiggs can still DI into him, and she can still land a Rest.

And yes, she can be punished. Unless she's playing on Japes, but let's not include that for now.

 

[Coffee™]

Then why do you mention baiting if it doesn't matter. Also I don't get what Jigg's aerial speed has to do with anything. She has the 2nd fastest aerial movement which means she is faster than pretty much almost everyone, in the air at least. However having such a fast aerial speed does not grant her much advantages due to her having generally terrible range on all of her attacks.

Whether or not Pit DIs while using the Uair or Nair makes no difference. Jiggs can still DI into him, and she can still land a Rest.

I find this extremely hard to believe that Pit's DI makes absolutely no difference as to whether Jiggly can get inside his hurtbox to actually hit a Rest.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I listed it as Pit's adv for now because none of those matchup discussions actually came to a final conclusion and the ratio was still debated by members of both boards, and after discussion the matchup with a few Pit mains before the chart was actually made most of them generally agreed to a 60:40. However I do believe it's time the matchup ratio for this was settled anyway.

The Pit boards are doing the MK matchup atm, but I will make a seperate thread shortly with which the Sonic matchup can be discussed and hopefully sorted out.

It was agreed to be somewhere in the neutral region by both sides each of the two times we looked at the match-up in depth. 60:40 is not neutral.

In this new thread you've made, everyone has called in neutral yet again. You can give it a +1 for 55:45 if you really want, but myself and many others can't see how it's anything other then 50:50.

That's what we've called it in our match-up chart, and that was what it was called in the old dead master thread in the Pit boards too.

Meh.

 

[MrEh]

I find this extremely hard to believe that Pit's DI makes absolutely no difference as to whether Jiggly can get inside his hurtbox to actually hit a Rest.

Jigglypuff can Rest through Gdub's Nair and Key.

If she can do that, then Pit's Nair and Uair should be a snap.

 

[Coffee™]

It was agreed to be somewhere in the neutral region by both sides each of the two times we looked at the match-up in depth. 60:40 is not neutral.

In this new thread you've made, everyone has called in neutral yet again. You can give it a +1 for 55:45 if you really want, but myself and many others can't see how it's anything other then 50:50.

That's what we've called it in our match-up chart, and that was what it was called in the old dead master thread in the Pit boards too.

Meh.

No, i'm not giving it a +1 simply based on my opinion, if the boards say it's 50:50 then i'll list it on the chart as 50:50, but as I said before if you actually read the old master thread you'll see that neutral was only decided on by some members while others called adv Pit and in the second thread only Sonic board members listed a matchup ratio.

Either way i'll change it shortly.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Iono, on the Export thread on your boards, all our mains called it neutral, a few of your mains did, one said that Sonic was at a disadvantage and said absolutely nothing to back it up, and one posted a vid of a really scrubby Sonic he played and said Pit had a slight (55:45?) advantage.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210638

Oh, and the Dead thread did reach a conclusion.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5469312&postcount=451

Agreed, the matchup seems more or less pretty neutral.

Pretty much.

 

[Coffee™]

In the first link only Adm posted as agreeing to neutral and in the 2nd link with my post that was before I actually played a decent Sonic, but based on my experiences after playing Sonic I don't think its 50:50 and as I said I wasn't the only one who thought that it was Pit's Adv.

Thats why I listed it as Pit's adv before, but as I said again this thread isn't about my biased opinion and I will change the matchup according to the board general concensus.

 

[cj.Shark]

Oh, and your advantage of Jiggs is too high.

No way Jiggs loses that hard, especially since she gimps so darn well.

yes she does. This isnt melee. Jigglypuff does not have reliable gimping options
You make it sound like every stock is taken from gimping pit, Its not. Pit has a very reliable recovery when counting jumps glide and WoI. Jigglypuff actually has very little options for woi because A) pits woi outspeeds jigglypuff. b) Jigglypuffs lacks range. the onlything for her that has good range is her f-b which will send pit up and out of gimping territory.
Also. Jigglypuff has no options vs Glide besides f-b which helps pit recover. and lastly Jigglypuff gets wrecked because Pit unlike alot of characters has very fast disjointed aerials that he can just throw out regardless of bait traps.

 

[MrEh]

This isnt melee.

I never said it was.

Jigglypuff does not have reliable gimping options

Pretty much every aerial is usable for gimping.

You make it sound like every stock is taken from gimping pit, Its not.

I never said that every stock would be taken from a gimp. I just said that Jiggs is good at gimping. That's all.

and lastly Jigglypuff gets wrecked because Pit unlike alot of characters has very fast disjointed aerials that he can just throw out regardless of bait traps.

Dude, lots of characters have fast disjointed aerials.

Game and Watch (everything)
Lucario (everything)
Marth (everything)
Meta (everything)
ROB (everything)
Toon Link (everything)
Ice Climbers (everything)
Olimar (Everything, mostly Uair)
Ivysaur (Everything except Nair)
Link (Uair, Dair, Fair and Zair)
Lucas (Fair, Dair, Bair)
Samus (Fair and Zair)
Ness (Fair)
Charizard (Fair)

Pit is really nothing special.


I'm not saying that Jiggs has an advantage on Pit. All I'm saying is that 65-35 is too high. 65-35 is like, Zelda advantage right there. And last time I checked, Pit does not beat Jiggs that hard.

 

[Afropony]

Gahhh!
I go away for a couple of days wishing that this guy wouldn't be argueing on this thread and what do I see!

Anyway besides that i think Pit vs. Fox should be +1. we can reflect his blasters and we have the ability to gimp him easier then he does to us. Fthrow chaingrab and Jabs also work really well on Fox.

 

[MrEh]

Gahhh!
I go away for a couple of days wishing that this guy wouldn't be argueing on this thread and what do I see!

Har har.

It's always better to have debate happening, otherwise nothing gets done. Accuracy is a good thing.

 

[Admiral Pit]

So, this is my first post in 2009, and technically I got nothing since Idk which char you guys were agruing about.

 

[MrEh]

So, this is my first post in 2009, and technically I got nothing since Idk which char you guys were agruing about.

Jigglypuff my man.

 

[rinoH]

so i main jiggs and pit and to me its like 60:40 cuz jiggs is easily juggled by Uair and though Jiggs is good at gimping if you use WoI right you wont be but Jiggs has rest and can sdi twords Pit during his AAA combo and rest him though that could mean an easy hit for pit. I just think that Pit is alot better and he has alot more priority

 

[cj.Shark]

so jiggs is good at gimping
this is brawl only the very careless get gimped.
gimping is not a reliable factor and is hardly the turning point for a matchup.
what jiggly might get a like one gimp every 5 games. hardly sufficent to make up for her lack of anything.
this is brawl. ollimar for an example. pretty much every character can gimp him. so because characters like dedede and Jigglypuff are good gimpers they have the advantage right?
so what is jigglypuff is a good gimper? pits recovery is one of the best in the game. so how does jiggly being good at gimping equate to her gaining anything in the matchup? thats like you going to a kirby matchup or a sonic matchup and saying "guys your wrong jigglypuff is good at gimping"

 

[Admiral Pit]

I find Jiggs very threatening to Pit. Her, being one of the few chars that could Pursue Pit while Pit's trying to recovery, aside from Kirby and probably ROB, or another Pit, what Jiggs has is some lingering attacks. The hitbox of N-air and F-air last a bit (N-air mostly), and this could nullify out N-airs.

Pit and Jiggs are good in the air of course, and this means that a Jiggs would most likely be in the air most of the time, and the puff has more mobility in the air than Pit with 5 mid-air jumps,
Jiggs' aerials come out quicker than Pit's in comparing F-airs. Pit should win with U-air priorities
Getting gimped is perhaps the biggest thing to be afraid of, then the lingering Hitboxes from some of her moves..

Pit's CG is nullified by Jiggs' floatiness and somewhat small size. Pit is better against larger targets anyways.

As far as priorities go, I would say Pit has slightly better priority, with the exception of Jiggs and her Pound and a few of her other moves.

Also, I do NOT recommend using Mirror Shield at all in this matchup. It is risky against Jiggs' Rollout, for she is able to push Pit with his Mirror Shield back a bit from the hitbox, but Jiggs will still roll right behind Pit, and hit him. You can stop Rollout with one little arrow, but what are the chances of you hitting something that small and fast?

For this point, I currently think Pit has a small advantage over her, maybe 60-40 or 55-45, but that doesnt mean that Jiggs's gimping capabilities against Pit and her aerials shouldnt be ignored.

My Apologies Corrupt, but dont grab me, okay?

 

[MrEh]

Good stuff.

Because we all know a 65-35 advantage is silly.

 

[Admiral Pit]

The Fact that you're not helping with the matchups (AND trying to frame me with that fake quote stuff) is starting to annoy me, and I think you should probably leave if you are to bring shame to us angels. I wont take your stupid jokes or Biasedness too lightly.

I've been hearing talk about Wario lately, with my experience against Bassem... and lost.
Wario and Jiggs actually happen to be similar, the fact that they love being in the air so much and have an aerial quicker than Pit's. All of Wario's aerials have a small amount of lag.
-N-air has 2 hitboxes, one where when u use the right next to your enemy, he gets hit, which somewhat works like a sweetspot, somehow... then his arms are the other hitbox. This is excellent against larger targets.
-F-air is a Shorter-ranged weaker Replica of Marth F-air
-D-air is an excellent Shield-pressuring move
-B-air is problably the least-used of the aerials, but it can outprioritize Pit's Angel Ring, so be cautious.
-U-air is that KO move, and has small amount of landing lag like the others.

You already know about Wario's Fsmash and Super Armor Frames.

Wario's recovery is bizzare, and is very much optional, and can come in a variety of ways, from the bike to the fully-charged waft. This bizzare recovery may also make it hard for us to gimp him at times.

Wario can somewhat pursue Pit off the stage with his varying recovery and bike, but it can cost him if he misses.
We can barely CG this guy because of Floatiness, similar to D3 and Jiggs.

This would be at our disadvantage, about 55-45 or 60-40 Wario. even if we can slightly camp (though Warios like the air and would dodge most of the arrows anyways. This has always tempted me to play on Luigi's Mansion against Wario, to narrow down his Air mobility, EVEN though this would also be a CP stage AGAINST Pit.
This would be to think that he might be harder to fight than D3 at times, when not counting D3's spammy CG thing.

Even though may be pointless, I may summarize a Pit ditto matchup.

 

[MrEh]

(AND trying to frame me with that fake quote stuff

That was a compliment. It's strange that you didn't get that. ><

I wont take your stupid jokes or Biasedness too lightly

Pits has only 5 disadvantageous matchups.

*cough cough*

 

[Coffee™]

Pits has only 5 disadvantageous matchups.*cough cough*

Yea because it's Pit and he must be disadvantaged against half the cast. amirite?

Honestly, what other matchups does "MrEh" think are disadvantageous?

 

[MrEh]

Yea because it's Pit and he must be disadvantaged against half the cast. amirite?

Pit is not Bowser, he does not have to be disadvantaged against everyone. However, having only 5 bad matchups is hard to believe.

Honestly, what other matchups does "MrEh" think are disadvantageous?

Wolf and Zelda should be neutral.

Ice Climbers should be neutral at the very least.

Lucario, Pikachu, ROB should be a bit higher. Pokemon Trainer should be brought up to 60-40 at the very least.

Oh, and it should be a disadvantage against Snake.

 

[KY_Des]

Falco should be an unfavorable matchup.

 

[Kool Aid]

rob should be favorable in the matchup

 

[Coffee™]

Pit is not Bowser, he does not have to be disadvantaged against everyone. However, having only 5 bad matchups is hard to believe.



Wolf and Zelda should be neutral.

Ice Climbers should be neutral at the very least.

Lucario, Pikachu, ROB should be a bit higher. Pokemon Trainer should be brought up to 60-40 at the very least.

Oh, and it should be a disadvantage against Snake.

And your reasoning behind these suggestions?

Also do you take the matchup ratios of other boards into consideration when making these suggestions? Since I believe the Lucario and Pikachu boards also agree on neutral.

The Wolf boards listed it as neutral iirc but its hard to see why when Pit for the most part beats Wolf in the air and offstage while their ground games are about neutral.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The Wolf boards listed it as neutral iirc but its hard to see why when Pit for the most part beats Wolf in the air and offstage while their ground games are about neutral.

Very wrong. Wolf beats Pit in the air.