Pit Matchup Listing

[Coffee™]

Well it's been quite a while since brawl has been released and the Pit boards haven't exactly finished a full matchup thread with matchup ratios and the like and after seeing Ankoku's Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing thread located here http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174741 I thought it might be a nice little project to undertake to emulate what he's done in that thread for Pit's matchups.

The chart below isn't as aesthetically pleasing as the one in Ankoku's thread but i'm honestly not going to spend a large amount of time doing something like that and I believe what i've done should be sufficent.

I'm also going to add this to the stickied matchup thread sometime later after a bit of discussion for easy access, as this thread will mostly be for discussion of the chart. As for the explanation of the chart and it's numbers i'll simply quote Ankoku as it is his variation of a matchup chart.

How to Read:
The character is obviously which character the matchup is about. The matchup is a bar with a 20-point scale going from -10 to +10 (where +/-10 should never, ever happen in any even somewhat balanced game). Points are easily translatable (0 is 50:50, +2 is 60:40, etc.), and no matchup below +/- 4 is "unwinnable," though 3's will be rather difficult to win.

A matchup may only be revised if a member from both involved character boards agrees to the new number. Feel free to debate about that number in this thread, or in some thread provided by either this, Pit, or the mentioned character's character board.

DETAILED NUMBER RATINGS:
0 - Even
1 - Slight advantage
2 - Advantage/Soft counter
3 - Clear advantage
4 - Hard counter
5 - Very poor matchup
6 - Extremely poor matchup
7 - Unwinnable in most circumstances
8 - Difficult to take a single stock off
9 - Unwinnable in practically all circumstances
10 - Reserved for vs Mewtwo matchup

Advantageous Matchups
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Samus

Slightly Advantageous Matchups
Bowser
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Ike
Jigglypuff
Link
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer
Shiek
Snake
Wolf
Zelda

Even Matchups
Fox
King Dedede
Kirby
Lucario
Luigi
Peach
R.O.B
Sonic
Toon Link
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus

Slightly Disadvataged Matchups
Wario
Marth
Olimar
Falco
Metaknight
Game&Watch

Disadantaged Matchups

Discuss....

 

[kown]

i think the rob matchup is favorable

 

[Rogue Pit]

I don't think Bowser is that much in Pit's favor.
Also GnW and MK being counters, personally i think GnW is more of a counter or equal to MK.
Also Olimar vs. Pit should be in Olimar's Favor.

 

[SSD]

sooo...where did you get most of these numbers? From what I can tell, we are FAR from done with the matchups on our end, so did you make these yourself, or take them from the respective character boards?

 

[Coffee™]

sooo...where did you get most of these numbers? From what I can tell, we are FAR from done with the matchups on our end, so did you make these yourself, or take them from the respective character boards?

Did I say or imply that these matchups or the numbers in here were from final conclusions or anything of the like? Obviously I know that the Pit boards aren't done with matchups, however, at the rate the Pit boards currently discuss matchups do you honestly think that they'll be anywhere near completion soon?

This thread is simply an interesting new way of looking at the matchups and it was made mostly for discussion with a rough draft as a start.

 

[Afropony]

Have ones that we havn't discussed been placed as neutral for the moment?

 

[Coffee™]

Have ones that we havn't discussed been placed as neutral for the moment?

No, each matchup has a rating. I thought it would be easier if we started off with at least a general rating for each character instead of simply asking everyone what they think of a matchup before trying to input a matchup number.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

... I think you might want to think twice about the ZSS match up... ZSS is faster than Pit on the ground and is better at comboing with her jabs and lasers...

 

[SSD]

Did I say or imply that these matchups or the numbers in here were from final conclusions or anything of the like?

No. Which is why I was asking.

Where are these numbers from?

 

[Admiral Pit]

Sorry Rogue, but us Pits do have some small advantage over Bowser. Not only can we CG him (though if we are too slow or if he DIs out quickly he can Up-B) but the fact that we can gimp him easily and give him pressure with our arrows. He also doesnt have as much range as DK, making it easier for us.
However, dont CP Norfair, for Bowser' weight will benefit here and he will last much longer.

Samus is 50-50 with us, for she can outcamp us and our approaches are outranged by the easily-spammed Z-air of hers.
Well, at least the matchup pics look nice for our angel.

 

[S.D]

Vs Rob is in Pit's favour imo.

Multihit attacks give Rob the ****, esp nair, arrows shut down most his moves before they come out, esp projectiles and if you space yourself properly to avoid the grab game Rob can't hurt you too badly.

Matchup vs Marth is probably worse than -2 and I don't see how ZSS is an even match Pit should **** that **** with his hawt edgeguard game.

 

[Afropony]

What do you guys think of Fox. I think they put it as 83-76 Pit's favour so would you guys agree with me saying that it's +1 for Pit?

 

[MrEh]

Sorry Rogue, but us Pits do have some small advantage over Bowser. Not only can we CG him (though if we are too slow or if he DIs out quickly he can Up-B) but the fact that we can gimp him easily and give him pressure with our arrows

Every time you chaingrab Bowser, he'll chaingrab Pit right back.


A competent Bowser will never be gimped. Meet my friend the Fortress. It has invincibility frames and it goes through all of Pit's aerials. Really, if Meta has issues gimping Bowser, then Pit certainly does.

 

[Afropony]

A competent Bowser will never be gimped. Meet my friend the Fortress. It has invincibility frames and it goes through all of Pit's aerials.

Really, if Meta has issues gimping Bowser, then Pit certainly does.

Mirror Shield...

 

[MrEh]

Mirror Shield...

Klaw beats shield.

If you are in a position to use the shield, then Bowser is in a position to Klaw.

 

[Coffee™]

Samus is 50-50 with us, for she can outcamp us and our approaches are outranged by the easily-spammed Z-air of hers.

How does Samus outcamp Pit when your projectile is faster and you have 2 reflectors for her 3 projectiles? Also her Zair is basically longest ranged attack in the game, how does it not outrange any other characters approach...

A competent Bowser will never be gimped. Meet my friend the Fortress. It has invincibility frames and it goes through all of Pit's aerials. Really, if Meta has issues gimping Bowser, then Pit certainly does.

It's easier for Pit to gimp Bowser than it is for Metaknight. Pit's Mirror Shield will reverse Bowser's recovery so the invincibility frames won't matter anyway, and if Bowser is knocked too far away from the stage Pit can just shoot him down with Arrows.

 

[MrEh]

Pit's Mirror Shield will reverse Bowser's recovery so the invincibility frames won't matter anyway, and if Bowser is knocked too far away from the stage Pit can just shoot him down with Arrows.

Um...did you read the previous post? You might have missed it, so...

Klaw beats shield.

If you are in a position to use the shield, then Bowser is in a position to Klaw.

 

[Coffee™]

I would have bothered to respond to that comment if it were true. Klaw has a very short range and Mirror Shield can be used anytime during Bowser's Up B to reverse it's direction so....your point?

 

[MrEh]

I would have bothered to respond to that comment if it were true. Klaw has a very short range

Are you sure we're talking about the same Klaw?

The Klaw's range is very deceptive. The hitbox is pretty disjointed.

so....your point?

It's not as simple to gimp Bowser as it appears. If it was a simple as running off the stage and shielding, why, Mario should have a huge advantage on Bowser! Sadly, that's not the case.

 

[Coffee™]

Are you sure we're talking about the same Klaw?

The Klaw's range is very deceptive. The hitbox is pretty disjointed.

Klaws range isn't really that big, Bowser still has to be fairly close to grab you.

It's not as simple to gimp Bowser as it appears. If it was a simple as running off the stage and shielding, why, Mario should have a huge advantage on Bowser! Sadly, that's not the case.

I never said gimping Bowser was as simple as running off the stage with MS but it really isn't hard for Pit to gimp Bowser wheter it be through WOP aerials, MS or simply shooting him down with arrows.

 

[MrEh]

Klaws range isn't really that big, Bowser still has to be fairly close to grab you.

It has about as much range as Bowser's Fair.

I never said gimping Bowser was as simple as running off the stage with MS

Then how else would you use the Shield as a gimping tool against Bowser?

whether it be through WOP aerials

If that were true then Jigglypuff would gimp Bowser heavily. Jigglypuff's WOP is superior to Pit's, and yet she still has difficulty gimping Bowser. The Fortress is just outrageous.

simply shooting him down with arrows.

Are you sure you're not confusing arrows with something else? Maybe...lasers? Perhaps...FALCO'S LASERS?!?! (no, I'm not serious )

 

[Coffee™]

Stop dragging this out longer than it has to be. Bowser is easily gimped, not only by Pit but by a host of other characters and Pit inarguably has an easier time gimping him than most of the cast. It's as simple as that.

 

[kown]

how can u say metaknight has a hard time gimping bowser?
Klaw beats MirrorSHield? wth are u talking about....
We MS when your using up B...this is for gimping...i dont get what ur trying to prove when u say klaw beats MS..your technically right but its not like were gunna USE mirrorshield when YOU use klaw.

bowser is also a big char with no projectile...pits favor

the matchup woukd basically be arrows and nair. bowser would have a hard time punishing

 

[Rogue Pit]

You guys are being Bias because you see bowser and you just think that pit ***** him.
The fact of the matter is most or all of you haven't fought a really good bowser. Bowser could possibly even be a pit counter.
He's the heaviest character period. It's almost impossible for pit to even kill bowser. With Claw, and Grab release combos, he can even Up+B through Pit's Fsmash.
He can Up+B outta his CGs and on a professional level, Arrows are easily Powershielded. You may say yea you can land a Bair, But Bair isn't easy to land, Predicted and you get Dsmashed.
Also with the MS controversy, Yes Pit can MS Bowser's Recovery, but all of Pit's hits with the except of Ftilt, can be DI'd upward, a good bowser never needs to UpB to recover. Also he can camp ledges simply by D+B at the ledge and Fairing off.
Bowser's Fire Angled Downward can gimp his WoI. Also his SHAD has great DI.
Basically Most of Pit's Aerials get ***** by his UpB which actually does Kill.
Ask Sage, who has played and lost to Bladewise a little while back. Who went bowser instead of Marth.

 

[Coffee™]

Based on the numbering system used for the chart what do you think Olimar, R.O.B Bowser and GW should be?

 

[Admiral Pit]

Don't push your luck Rogue and MrEh, I know Bowsers inside and out considering how I used to main him, heck to make it simple I use both Pit and Bowser.

Now a Bowser CAN use the Fortress outta Pit's CG, but as I have done before, I could PURPOSELY stop the CG, stand back, and let Bowser do his Fortress, and then attack him again.

To view gimping more, we can gimp u with arrows, but u can airdodge them. It is somewhat hard to gimp a Bowser in certain situations with that Fortress, yes, but you still must should be cautious of Mirror Shield, no matter how much u think it's not a threat, for underestimating could cost u the simple stock.

Bowser's core defense is his Fortress, but sometimes that thing eventually gets predictable, depending on the Bowser, and then punish, and though u can punish us from leaving ourselves open, any Bowser would do that, (or Jab), and I realize that when I've faced Pits with my Bowser.

It's not that I'm putting down Bowsers, it's that Bowser is technically forced to approach with arrows, even if you could just block them all, for remember that Bowser can only KO at close range (Firebreath included). You also have to look at you options compared to Pit's. This would be Pit's favor in the60-40 and 55-45 range, but yes, Bowser takes a long time to KO, with Pit's lack of KO power.

Pit is better against Larger targets than he is small chars, that's another thing to know.

As for Zelda, it's 50-50 with Zelda's KO power and her ability to keep Pit from approaching for above. More info to come later.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Based on the numbering system used for the chart what do you think Olimar, R.O.B Bowser and GW should be?

Olimar would be -2 Olimar's Favor.
R.O.B. IMO it would even
Bowser would be even or it could be +1 or -1 TBH I'm not completely sure. This match-up is pretty strange.
GW should be the same as MK or worse.
Make MK -3 and GW -3

Btw Admiral Fortress is like Dolphin slash, OFFLINE, with no lag, you use it to punish when your 100% sure it's gonna hit. Randomly spamming it is stupid.

 

[MrEh]

Stop dragging this out longer than it has to be. Bowser is easily gimped, not only by Pit but by a host of other characters and Pit inarguably has an easier time gimping him than most of the cast. It's as simple as that.

In a match, how many kills are go going to get by gimping Bowser? This isn't Ganondorf vs Meta. ><

how can u say metaknight has a hard time gimping bowser?

Fortress goes through Loop and the Dair, which are commonly used for gimping.

Klaw beats MirrorSHield? wth are u talking about....

Try shielding, and have Bowser Klaw you. See what happens.

its not like were gunna USE mirrorshield when YOU use klaw.

Of course you won't. We're going to Klaw when we predict the shileld, in the same way that you shield when you predict the Fortress.

bowser is also a big char with no projectile...pits favor

Meet DK. He's big, has no projectile, and his Bair *****. Really, it's like you're saying that Pit has some unholy advantage simply because he has a projectile. Bowser does fine against Falco, and he has an even better projectile then Pit.

the matchup woukd basically be arrows and nair. bowser would have a hard time punishing

I'm sorry, did you just say that Bowser has a hard time punishing Pit? Punishing is what defines Bowser! Fortess OoS stops a lot of Pit's approaches.

Bowser's Fire Angled Downward can gimp his WoI.

Yeah, it does. Works wonders if Pit's ever in a situation where he has to use the Wings.

Based on the numbering system used for the chart what do you think Olimar, R.O.B Bowser and GW should be?

I know Bowser needs to be higher. Seriously, the chart lists the matchup as 65-35 in Pit's favor. O_o

Now a Bowser CAN use the Fortress outta Pit's CG, but as I have done before, I could PURPOSELY stop the CG, stand back, and let Bowser do his Fortress, and then attack him again.

Bowser could start jabbing instead.

for remember that Bowser can only KO at close range

The same can be said for Pit. Really, Bowser has some pretty good range to his attacks. His tilts are as ranged as Marth's...

This would be Pit's favor in the60-40 and 55-45 range

Then why is it listed as a 65-35? That's close to a hard counter.

Btw Admiral Fortress is like Dolphin slash, OFFLINE, with no lag, you use it to punish when your 100% sure it's gonna hit. Randomly spamming it is stupid.

Invincibility frames FTW.

 

[Coffee™]

Honestly, I don't know where you learned to argue since you are using parts of people's arguments out of their contexts to better suit your point but w/e, there's actually some other changes I want to make to the chart as well because I actually made a mistake with some of the numbers.

Moving Bowser to +1 or +2
Moving DK to +3
Moving ICs to +2
Moving MK to +3
Moving Olimar to -2

Would anyone have any objections to those?

 

[MrEh]

you are using parts of people's arguments out of their contexts to better suit your point

Please point this out to me.

Would anyone have any objections to those?

Bowser being +1 sounds fine.


If you want, change the matchup to +9. Bowser is big, slow, he has no answers to arrows, he can't hit Pit since Pit is so much faster, and will get gimped at 0%.

 

[cj.Shark]

In a match, how many kills are go going to get by gimping Bowser? This isn't Ganondorf vs Meta. ><
Fortress goes through Loop and the Dair, which are commonly used for gimping.
Try shielding, and have Bowser Klaw you. See what happens.
Of course you won't. We're going to Klaw when we predict the shileld, in the same way that you shield when you predict the Fortress.
Meet DK. He's big, has no projectile, and his Bair *****. Really, it's like you're saying that Pit has some unholy advantage simply because he has a projectile. Bowser does fine against Falco, and he has an even better projectile then Pit.
I'm sorry, did you just say that Bowser has a hard time punishing Pit? Punishing is what defines Bowser! Fortess OoS stops a lot of Pit's approaches.
Yeah, it does. Works wonders if Pit's ever in a situation where he has to use the Wings.
I know Bowser needs to be higher. Seriously, the chart lists the matchup as 65-35 in Pit's favor. O_o
Bowser could start jabbing instead.
The same can be said for Pit. Really, Bowser has some pretty good range to his attacks. His tilts are as ranged as Marth's...
Then why is it listed as a 65-35? That's close to a hard counter.
Invincibility frames FTW.

Ok first of all. The mirrorshield is good because if bowser is forced to upB all pit needs to do is jump in the line and reflect it. saying klaw will save you is a bit of a joke really. because obviously pit is not gonna send out a mirrorshield if hes in f-airing range. it is much more likely that bowser needs to upB for horizontal distance(which mind u is longer than klaw) and is then interrupted in the middle of it and set the other way)
2. Almost everything goes through Shuttle Loop because it has very little priority and not disjointed. gnw can keep his d-air out and if mk UPBs into it he will get hit. same with any disjointed hitbox. vs a non disjoint it will trade hits. so saying OH My recovery goes through shuttle loop! well duh so does 90% of the cast. its only good at gimping because it is easy to hit with and sends them at an absurd distance and angle.
3. MK can easily d-air ur recovery. Like ike bowser has invincibility frames during the beginning but since bowsers upB is not disjointed at the end after invincibility mK can easily d-air bowser again.
4. range is not that important. in the air range is only good if your attack is disjointed or else youll be basically throwing out your hurtbox. on the ground range must be matched with speed (a few exceptions) or else it is horrible. for instance Marths f-smash has plenty of range. but it doesnt come out fast at all and its lag afterwards is horrendous. each of bowsers attacks are like marths f-smash.
5. UPB out of shield is by no means perfect. and neither is bowsers defense game. If Bowser could perfectly uPB out of shield then all of bowsers matchups would be 70:30 bowser as gnw couldnt turtle. Mk couldnt double d-air. Heck d3 couldnt even land a grab. but obviously it is not and missed upBs are punishable. the marth boards tried to pull this off too(although theirs is much more punishable) UPB out of shield is by no means a perfect punisher. infact i would say snakes f-tilt is waay better for punishing then upB and pit manages to retain a slight advantage on snake
6. This chart is obviously flawed. It is just the respective characters on paper with a scent of bias. the thread maker however has admitted to it and it is rather a way to determine the matchups from there rather then wait for all the matchups to be completed.
7. (dont read this imof topic and i dont wantto delete my wall-otext)Pit does well on DK Because he has a projectile. heres the gist of it. Its fast( flies faster then laser(which is crazy since lasers are supposed to go at the speed of light right?...) spammable(less than laser) deals good damage(66% more damage when both are fresh) (50% when both are stale). can be controlled/stacked/unreflectable. however in this specific matchup falcos are better because each of his lasers stun which is proably the most important factor. saying that lasers arent important for falco vs dk is an understatement. sure they can be powershielded. but at the same time. they stop dk's best apporaches mainly his b-air. they rack up damage quick and can lead to KOs (silent laser to upsmash) and basically. that and chaingrabs are the reason falco has any sort of advantage at all. Ok im a bit off topic but the point im trying to get at is that Projectiles are a big deal. you cant just say. "well i can powershield and think that projectiles no longer affect the matchup". (turns out u didnt say that my bad)
8. bowsers jab is quite slow. especially for a jab. it comes out frame 6. heck our downsmash comes out in that time. i wouldnt call it a very good move for breaking combos or protecting yourself.

 

[MrEh]

Ok first of all. The mirrorshield is good because if bowser is forced to upB all pit needs to do is jump in the line and reflect it. saying klaw will save you is a bit of a joke really. because obviously pit is not gonna send out a mirrorshield if hes in f-airing range. it is much more likely that bowser needs to upB for horizontal distance(which mind u is longer than klaw)

I never said that the Mirror Shield isn't good. All I'm saying is that a competent Bowser is more difficult to gimp then people believe. That's all.

Almost everything goes through Shuttle Loop because it has very little priority and not disjointed. gnw can keep his d-air out and if mk UPBs into it he will get hit. same with any disjointed hitbox. vs a non disjoint it will trade hits.

I can't even see how this has anything do with the Fortress. What you're saying here is that a disjointed hixbox will beat a non disjointed one. The Fortress isn't even disjointed, so how does this even relate?

3. MK can easily d-air ur recovery. Like ike bowser has invincibility frames during the beginning but since bowsers upB is not disjointed at the end after invincibility mK can easily d-air bowser again.

Ike doesn't even have invincibility frames. So you can't compare Bowser's recovery to his, since they're very different.

each of bowsers attacks are like marths f-smash.

Jabs, Tilts, Fortress, Fair, and Bair.

5. UPB out of shield is by no means perfect. and neither is bowsers defense game.

Obviously. If Bowser had a perfect defensive game, we wouldn't have a Meta problem. Bowser's defensive game is great, not perfect.

If Bowser could perfectly uPB out of shield then all of bowsers matchups would be 70:30 bowser as gnw couldnt turtle.

Game and Watch has range on his Aerials, while Pit has significantly less range, meaning he is more susceptible to an OoS Fortress, Tilts, or Jabs. I'm not saying it's perfect, all I'm saying is that it works.

Mk couldnt double d-air.

Fortress doesn't beat that. Utilt does.

Heck d3 couldnt even land a grab.

Actually, he can. Obviously, Fortress OoS doesn't stop grabs.

but obviously it is not and missed upBs are punishable. the marth boards tried to pull this off too(although theirs is much more punishable) UPB out of shield is by no means a perfect punisher.

Fortress is far less punishable then a Dolphin Slash. I mean way less punishable.
If you're out of the Fortress's range, the Bowser player would probably Jab or Tilt instead versus spinning everywhere.

infact i would say snakes f-tilt is waay better for punishing then upB

I think the Fortress does better because of the invincibility frames as well as a decent hitbox. It's not that the hitbox is large or anything, it's just that it hits all around Bowser, including above him.

6. This chart is obviously flawed.

Yeah, since according to chart, Pit has like only 4 bad matchups, which is totally hilarious.

(turns out u didnt say that my bad)

No prob.

8. bowsers jab is quite slow. especially for a jab. it comes out frame 6. heck our downsmash comes out in that time. i wouldnt call it a very good move for breaking combos or protecting yourself.

Like you said earlier...

on the ground range must be matched with speed (a few exceptions) or else it is horrible.

Bowser's jab may be slow compared to a large amount of the cast, but it's one of the longest ranged jabs in the game. Because of it's minimal ending lag, it's useful for spacing and getting quick hits in.



I have no disrespect for Pit guys. All I'm trying to say is that Bowser puts up one heck of a fight against him. 55-45 max.

 

[Coffee™]

Please point this out to me.

It would honestly be a waste of my time to point out every little mistake you've made in your series of quotes and out of context replies.

If you want, change the matchup to +9. Bowser is big, slow, he has no answers to arrows, he can't hit Pit since Pit is so much faster, and will get gimped at 0%.

Stop acting like a ******, noone ever said "MrEh you're required to post here".

Yeah, since according to chart, Pit has like only 4 bad matchups, which is totally hilarious.

Since you're clearly the authority on the character feel free to enlighten me as to what other matchups should be listed as disadvantages.

 

[MrEh]

It would honestly be a waste of my time to point out every little mistake you've made in your series of quotes and out of context replies.

That's too bad then.

Stop acting like a ******

Ouch. That's not very civil.

noone ever said "MrEh you're required to post here

I'm posting here because I want to be helpful, and to try to educate people about the Bowser matchup, which most people think is a mockery to begin with.

Since you're clearly the authority on the character feel free to enlighten me as to what other matchups should be listed as disadvantages.

I wouldn't say that, but there are some matchups that just seem way off. Matchups are always debatable, but if I see something like "Samus has a 70-30 advantage on Dedede", I know something's wrong.

The advantage over Samus seem high. 65-35 is close to a hard counter. Pit is a solid character, but that amount of advantage seems a bit much. 60-40 on Dedede and Zelda seems a bit high as well. (but hey, that's just me) Also, DK is listed as a 70-30, which is a hard counter. While it's debatable whether or not Pit has an advantage on the big ape, that level of dominance is way too high. (doesn't matter though, since you were going to change the DK matchup to like 65-35 anyway)

Also, 65-35 on Bowser is too low. Needs to be changed to 90-10.

 

[teh_pwns_the]

lol dk is pits play toy, i play both and its true, hes got next to nothing on pit, nothing against dk since i love him and all but its just a bad match up, pit has very few bad matchups which is why there are only around 4 in his disadvantage

oh and to as you saying ike doesnt have invincibility frames, have you ever played an ike before, when he throws his sword up for aether you can smack the **** out of him and he wont budge he may just be flinch resistant but im pretty sure its invincibility frames

and the reason maniac isnt being very civil is because you are sidetracking what this thread is supposed to be with pro bower propaganda, hes a large target with pretty slow moves and is pretty easy to gimp, sure you can fortress out of shield congrats that is one thing in your favor, however worthless to any rising aerials which can be a large part of pits game depending on how he plays

 

[MrEh]

oh and to as you saying ike doesnt have invincibility frames, have you ever played an ike before

I'm a bit insulted. Of course I've played Ike. He doesn't have invincibility frames period. Only on his Counter, but that really isn't what we're talking about.

when he throws his sword up for aether you can smack the **** out of him and he wont budge he may just be flinch resistant but im pretty sure its invincibility frames

Those aren't invincibility frames. Those are super armor frames, and they're not the same thing.

and the reason maniac isnt being very civil is because you are sidetracking what this thread is supposed to be with pro bower propaganda, hes a large target with pretty slow moves and is pretty easy to gimp, sure you can fortress out of shield congrats that is one thing in your favor

You seem to be confusing me with the people from the Yoshi boards. I'm not over glorifying Bowser, I'm just being realistic about his advantages. I agree that Pit has an advantage on Bowser, but 65-35 is just too high.

however worthless to any rising aerials which can be a large part of pits game depending on how he plays

Aerial approaches can be hindered by an up angled Ftilt or a reverse Utilt.

 

[Admiral Pit]

That's enough guys. This is turning into an argument as I see it.

For you teh pwns the, Ike does NOT have Invicibility Frames. You are thinking of SUPER ARMOR FRAMES (reminds me of Pit's Mirror Shield Super Armor).
The difference from Invicibility frames and Super Frames is that you take NO damage if it was invicibility frames, and Super Armor frames, you take damage, but you DONT FLINCH. Same goes for Wario Fsmash. Everyone knows that thing has Super Armor Frames.
Note that Super Armor Frames are still vulnerable to grabs.

I admit Bowser, considering how I have previously mained him (but I still use him), is a tough target for Pit.
So let's see this from Pit's General View.

Pit is better against large targets than he is to smaller targets, depsite the fact that he lacks KO power, so expect Bowser to last about like 150-175% at an average estimate and Pit is outranged by most of the characters, like Bowser himself (Bowser barely outranges him). When I mean Outranged I mean Pit's melee attacks are outranged.
Pit's most likely going to use a lot of arrows, and Bowser would be Forced to approach.

Do not underestimate Bowser in the air, for F-air is perhaps his Best Aerial and it outranges Pit with its disjointed hitbox.
For those Pits who really enjoy their Angel Ring should be cautious, for Bowser can outprioritize that with F-tilt, D-tilt, Fsmash, F-air, and even a Side-B (From the Air).

I think we already discussed Pit CG and the Boozer Fortress. For me, Mindgames on the Bowser at this part is sometimes fun. But Seriously, the Fortress is like Bowser's best move, from being one of his choiceful KO moves to being his best defensive options to punish.
For the Pits who are not aware, Bowser has one on us as well. It's actually different than most. While Bowser continuously hits u (this would prevent escaping in the air), he has the least "Broken Free from grab" animation in the game and this will allow him to dash quickly and regrab Pit (or any char for that matter, and thank god does it help against MK).
This is the Boozer Grab Release thread. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617
Though Bowser has this grab release, we are quite resistant to many options Bowser has on us compared to many of the other characters (Poor Wario).


Apparently most of the discussion was about Gimping Bowser and Pit, so I'm going to clear it.
Bowser will sometimes get gimped easily, depending on the Bowser, and remember that Bowser is somewhat limited with his recovery more so than Pit. However, Bowser has a bit more options as long as he's above platform level. If Pit chooses to approach him, you may even expect F-air, Side-B, or an Airdodge, and remember that F-air beats Pit's F-air in range.
Yes, we know about the Mirror Shield gimp and the Bowser Side-B, but again, for the Pits, getting Bowser where you want him can be sometimes difficult... Until he's under platform level.
Still, Pit's exceptional Edgeguarding and Gimping capabilities are not to be underestimated, neither should Bowser's seemingly-assumed Limited Recovery options.


Bowser can ledgecamp a bit, but we all know that Pit is better at it, though Bowser could choose to dot a quick F-air, a U-air or even a Side-B (enjoy Bowserciding).
Note to Bowsers: Dont hang on the ledge too long. Bowser is one of the characters that can get Pit D-tilt spiked while hanging on the ledge.
Pit must worry about getting Gimped from Bowser's superior range of F-air and Firebreath.

Just another note to the Bowsers that I highly do NOT recommend using the Infinite jump against Pit for the arrows would most likely screw you up.

But no MrEh, I aint having that "90-10" trash in here. I here claim the Bowser vs Pit matchup either in 60-40 Pit OR 55-45 Pit. Pit Does have the advantage, but he cant destroy Bowser completely like a few other chars can, like Dedede's CG spam to Bowser, and I used the word spam on purpose.

This benefits me and I know this considering how I have used these 2 chars practically the most, and have taken part on both sides in this matchup. Can we please not argue like this? I notice that this occurs most when Pit is being discussed... And I wont let this happen.

Your choices on the matchup will be in this range:
60-40 Pit (I currently see it as this after experiencing both matchups sparingly, though it might change in the future) OR
55-45 Pit

There's your LARGE Summary to some of the Pits complained that I dont make large summaries in Pit threads, but I do in other char's threads. Happy now!?

 

[MrEh]

Pit is outranged by most of the characters, like Bowser himself (Bowser barely outranges him). When I mean Outranged I mean Pit's melee attacks are outranged.

Through some bizarre cosmic twist, Bowser's jab actually outranges Pit's Fsmash. It also clanks with it, and that shows how sexy the jab is.

Though Bowser has this grab release, we are quite resistant to many options Bowser has on us compared to many of the other characters (Poor Wario).

Wario eats up Fsmashes and Usmashes. Too bad he's impossible to grab.

Pit is pretty "meh" when it comes to grab releases. Just the usual regrab, Klaw, Fair stuff. Works on most characters, but it's nothing amazing.

Still, Pit's exceptional Edgeguarding and Gimping capabilities are not to be underestimated, neither should Bowser's seemingly-assumed Limited Recovery options

Well said.

But no MrEh, I aint having that "90-10" trash in here. I here claim the Bowser vs Pit matchup either in 60-40 Pit OR 55-45 Pit.

I was joking. No one ***** Bowser that hard except Dedede. I said earlier that I thought the matchup was 55-45 in Pit's favor.

Can we please not argue like this? I notice that this occurs most when Pit is being discussed... And I wont let this happen.

You should see the Yoshi boards. They're a riot.

Your choices on the matchup will be in this range:
60-40 Pit (I currently see it as this after experiencing both matchups sparingly, though it might change in the future) OR
55-45 Pit

55-45 sounds a lot fairer then 65-35. 65-35 is just hilarious, since the thought of Pit having a large advantage on Bowser is laughable.

 

[Coffee™]

55-45 sounds a lot fairer then 65-35. 65-35 is just hilarious, since the thought of Pit having a large advantage on Bowser is laughable.

Either way I still find it hard to believe the match is anything less than a 60:40. You list a lot of the positives of Bowser but most of them just don't apply that much in the matchup.

Bowser does great as a defensive character there is no doubting that but the problem here is that Pit forces him to approach and lets face it, naturally defensive characters don't like to approach and Bowser is no exception.

Bowser's general approach is also fairly predictable. He can't really approach with anything but Fair, Ftilt, Dtilt and I guess Jab but it's not really that hard for Pit to stop these approaches as well as capitalize of the lag of some of these attacks.

Pit camps the hell out of Bowser when he decides to play a defensive game and is going to build up damage on Bowser way faster than Bowser is going to build up damage on Pit. As Adm said with good DI on Bowser's part unless he is gimped which is indeed fairly plausible he is going to generally survive till around 150-175% but in turn Pit needs to around 120% before he is dying from any of Bowser's kill moves aside from Fsmash, this is assuming Pit being hit from the middle of FD and it is going to be a lot easier for Pit to build up 150-175% than it is for Bowser to build up 120-130%.

Bowser has some nice things on Pit like his grab release shenanigans and the Forretress OoS but I just don't think much of the these contribute to pulling the matchup to be in only in favor of Pit as 55:45.

Edit: Edited the chart to included the mentioned changes, also changed Bowser to a +2 for now.

 

[Kyuubi9t]

well im not one for the walls of text, but im glad that one's settled :-)