Perfect Pivot, Foxtrotting, Dashdancing

[Gatoray]

If only the 3DS wasn't so hard to control. The Wii U version couldn't be any further away... I feel like the 3DS is pretty much a $40 demo for the Wii U version. I want my GC controls back! ;_;

 

[Quillion]

It's all meaningless if there's no Wavedashing...

kidding.

 

[Quillion]

If only the 3DS wasn't so hard to control. The Wii U version couldn't be any further away... I feel like the 3DS is pretty much a $40 demo for the Wii U version. I want my GC controls back! ;_;

There's going to be a thing called the New 3DS. They've confirmed that the second Analog will be used for Smashes.

 

[Gatoray]

There's going to be a thing called the New 3DS. They've confirmed that the second Analog will be used for Smashes.

Who cares about the C-stick? I want to use a real analog stick, not a flat slidy rubbery circle thing that I'm afraid will break at any time.

 

[Mota]

Damn pretty hype stuff. Stupid fragile 3DS, here's hoping it's reliable on Gamecube controls.

 

[Linkshot]

Looks like Smash 4 has already opened its arms to 20XX

 

[Ganreizu]

irregardless

Seriously though?

That has never, ever been the case. If we're talking about Brawl here, I don't see how lack of tech skill has anything to do with tripping, chaingrabs, Meta Knight, planking, defensive gameplay, etc.


Dafuq again. Being intuitive and accessible, the whole point of the series in the first place, is "something it isn't and shouldn't be"? Are you high?

I agree with you. Brawl did have a noticeable skill ceiling despite the various anti-competitive aspects that made getting there pointless.

 

[M@v]

Just noticed; why is the images on the 3ds reversed? O_o

 

[kupo15]

Heres some of this stuff in Brawl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9eYjgR9g1o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c

This tech is difficult. Brawl players were lazy and hardly anyone used it, even in top level play. Here's hoping its different this time around.

Very, very useful stuff.

I wonder if noone used it because it provided no benefit in Brawl. In a ground based game like melee this type of movement is super important but for an air based game like brawl probably not so much. This is a really cool discovery, lets hope that smash 4's game is ground based enough that this will actually be relevant.

 

[Remzi]

Actually the problem with it in Brawl is there was a high chance of tripping while doing it making it risky and generally useless.

Well, a pivot at the end of a dash only introduced one more opportunity to trip then a regular dash presents. We're talking about going from one 1% opportunity to two 1% opportunities. Nothing game breaking, and definitely still worth using. It was laziness more than anything else.

 

[Remzi]

I wonder if noone used it because it provided no benefit in Brawl. In a ground based game like melee this type of movement is super important but for an air based game like brawl probably not so much. This is a really cool discovery, lets hope that smash 4's game is ground based enough that this will actually be relevant.

Well, one of the main reasons Brawl was considered an "air based game" was due to a lack of control on the ground. If anything, pivots were a much needed remedy to that. I think that makes them even more important. But thats neither here nor there, I really hope pivots find their way into the metagame this time around. We'd be silly to ignore them.

 

[Ganreizu]

Who cares about the C-stick?

Literally everyone. Competitive players disregard the game because of no c-stick, and casual players will eat it up when they realize how much easier it is to control themselves with it.

The only ones who don't care are ******* who think c-stick is cheating, and i can safely say no one cares about those people.

 

[Deleted member]

Literally everyone. Competitive players disregard the game because of no c-stick, and casual players will eat it up when they realize how much easier it is to control themselves with it.

The only ones who don't care are ******* who think c-stick is cheating, and i can safely say no one cares about those people.

I dunno, everyone on smashboards pretty much unanimously agree that using the c-stick is totally hacking and only used by total n00bs like mango and m2k. Obviously they can't compete on the level of the glorious A button users and need the handicap to feel better. Bill Trinen said so himself so it's totally an undisputable fact. How broken would smash be if you could just instantly smash attack whenever without having to charge anyways?

 

[Zimoria]

.-. I can do this with my index finger but not my thumb. I didn't think it would be practical to use but here we are.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth and Lucina rising on that tier list for Wii U version once this is mastered.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Amazing discovery! I can't wait to see those tech put to use in a large tournament.

Man, this game is looking good!

 

[Quillion]

Well, one of the main reasons Brawl was considered an "air based game".

Brawl is a turtling/camping-based game. There's no ground control due to floatiness, and there's no air control due to the OP air dodge.

 

[kupo15]

Well, one of the main reasons Brawl was considered an "air based game" was due to a lack of control on the ground. If anything, pivots were a much needed remedy to that. I think that makes them even more important. But thats neither here nor there, I really hope pivots find their way into the metagame this time around. We'd be silly to ignore them.

I think it was more air based all due to that brawl airdodge and the fact that its back in Smash 4 makes me feel like the game will still be more air based even though there is landing lag. The sear fact that you can air dodge and still do things in the air along with those special up b's is what I think contributes to a mainly air based game.

But yea, I hope this stuff makes it to the meta

 

[Codester]

Darn, someone else found out how I tech. I do this with marth and Little mac very often, I use this to space ***** my Marth to tipper tilts and smash attacks, with mac the input is quicker so sometimes I accidentally smash instead when I mean to tilt or jab combo. I do this a lot in conjunction with pivot grabs as well. I also do it as a mind edge guard tactic, ill stand on the ledge and foxtro away 1 or 2 movements then when they recover I perfect pivot as you have named it the opposite direction and Smash attack them.

 

[Hukuzo]

Besides this not being the most useful thing in the world, the 3DS's circle pad isn't responsive enough to consistently pull off movements like this. Anyone that's played the game knows that it can be difficult to simply turn around or the game will read the opposite direction of what you pressed. I thought my 3DS was broken until I started seeing similar complaints online and in gameplay videos.

 

[momochuu]

is the momentum from this strong on any other character besides little mac?

 

[Gatoray]

Literally everyone. Competitive players disregard the game because of no c-stick, and casual players will eat it up when they realize how much easier it is to control themselves with it.

The only ones who don't care are ******* who think c-stick is cheating, and i can safely say no one cares about those people.

It was a figure of speech. My bad. Yes, I care about the C-stick.

 

[Deleted member]

Besides this not being the most useful thing in the world, the 3DS's circle pad isn't responsive enough to consistently pull off movements like this. Anyone that's played the game knows that it can be difficult to simply turn around or the game will read the opposite direction of what you pressed. I thought my 3DS was broken until I started seeing similar complaints online and in gameplay videos.

I pull it off consistently, the 3DS pad is perfectly capable of reliably doing it. I have a XL so there might be a difference between that and the original. If you only half way before hitting the edge of the 3DS and flicking it the opposite way is the most consistent way, if you're doing a full flick and then back like how you dash dance in Melee then you're too slow. It's a very small window of what feels like 4 frames.

is the momentum from this strong on any other character besides little mac?

Works amazing with Greninja!

 

[trash?]

also, another note: brawl players weren't lazy, they just knew how bad of an idea it is to dash in general in that game. remember, this is the same game where many characters can CG your stock away, and you don't want to trip into that grab, lest you enjoy the taste of several pounds of salt

 

[Remzi]

Brawl is a turtling/camping-based game. There's no ground control due to floatiness, and there's no air control due to the OP air dodge.

Lack of ground control came mostly from dashes being too committal. Smash4 has the same problem, but the increase in speed, VERY short dash ending frames on some characters, short skid IASA frames, and turnaround mechanics allow for many more options. Floatiness and air dodging didn't affect air control either, just game speed and the style of play.

I think it was more air based all due to that brawl airdodge and the fact that its back in Smash 4 makes me feel like the game will still be more air based even though there is landing lag. The sear fact that you can air dodge and still do things in the air along with those special up b's is what I think contributes to a mainly air based game.

But yea, I hope this stuff makes it to the meta

Eh, air dodge lag makes air dodging a LOT worse in this game. Jury is still out, but right now there seems to be a wide variety between grounded and aerial options for all characters. I like the direction the game is headed in so far.

also, another note: brawl players weren't lazy, they just knew how bad of an idea it is to dash in general in that game. remember, this is the same game where many characters can CG your stock away, and you don't want to trip into that grab, lest you enjoy the taste of several pounds of salt

Dashing away and pivoting towards your opponent was a safe , defensive, option. There was no excuse for players not at least learning how to do that. Hell, even late in the Brawl metagame, most players COULDN'T EVEN PLATFORM CANCEL. The average Brawl player was lazy in the tech department.

 

[Quillion]

Floatiness and air dodging didn't affect air control either, just game speed and the style of play.

Floatiness was supposed to lead to a more aerial-based game, but the air dodge rendered that moot.

As I'm sure you know, the air dodge can be used to cancel hitstun, you can do it many times in the air, and there's no consequence for airdodging near the ground. This means no juggle combos, projectiles short of Falco's laser are useless, and the already-wide gap between Fragile Speedsters and Mighty Glaciers is widened further as slower attackers can't even intercept air dodges reliably.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I like how many people are complaining about tech being difficult.
Practice brah.

this is actually a super cool thread, I discovered a couple of these on my own, but very excited to see that someone found a way to dd in this game, I've just been fox trotting back and forth xD
Definitely worth practicing.

now we just need to figure out platform stuff and I'll start enjoying the game way more.

 

[Langley]

I can do this even though it feels like hell doing it with the Circle Pad.
Probably me being used to the GC controller. I hope I'll be in my zone when Wii U rolls around.

 

[kupo15]

Eh, air dodge lag makes air dodging a LOT worse in this game. Jury is still out, but right now there seems to be a wide variety between grounded and aerial options for all characters. I like the direction the game is headed in so far.
.

Yes there is now landing lag and the jury is still out about that but I think you are really underestimating the power of the Brawl style air dodge and how it fundamentally cripples the ground game and as you are experiencing now I'm not the only person trying to bring this point to people's attention

 

[PK Gaming]

Totally amazing tech
Totally not worth killing my 3DS though

 

[Sourpowerpete]

I think I'd be able to pull off the extended dash dance, I've already managed to do it a few times. However, I can't really do the fast dash dance. I have to actually hold the 3ds in one hand and use my right index finger on the circle pad, just to be able to move it fast enough. Am I doing something wrong? Any tips anyone could give me?

 

[Yoki]

That's pretty hard to do on a 3ds, and not worth destroying your stick for. It can have some uses in mixing up the timing of your fox trot, but it's really not that useful anyway.


The retreating tilt is easy to do, soft on your stick and potentially useful on almost every character. The other techs are mostly there as proof of concept to be later used on a Wii U, really. I don't think I'll use more than that and the extended dashdance until then.

 

[Quillion]

Yes there is now landing lag and the jury is still out about that but I think you are really underestimating the power of the Brawl style air dodge and how it fundamentally cripples the ground game and as you are experiencing now I'm not the only person trying to bring this point to people's attention

The landing lag means that the ground game is far more improved. It means that now you can play as a Mighty Glacier AND punish annoying short-hop air dodging.

So yeah, that's another thing. The mechanics are MUCH more friendlier to the Mighty Glaciers this time around.

Sure, we won't have anymore wavedashing, but by ease of use and control, I prefer the momentum-conserving air dodge over the directional one. I share the belief that it was OP in Brawl, though (it was THE problem with Brawl aside from tripping).

 

[Remzi]

Yes there is now landing lag and the jury is still out about that but I think you are really underestimating the power of the Brawl style air dodge and how it fundamentally cripples the ground game and as you are experiencing now I'm not the only person trying to bring this point to people's attention

You could say that it makes the air a safer place to be, but it doesn't cripple the ground game. High level players in Brawl habitually punished players for air dodging, to the point it became very, very unsafe. The only really broken thing about Brawl air dodging was being able to laglessly do it into the ground, because you could buffer another defensive or offensive option out of it, and that meant that you had to make a series of reads to get a single punish. Smash 4 will be fine in that regard.

 

[peNNy]

Marth and Lucina rising on that tier list for Wii U version once this is mastered.

I am just testing it with Marth and it feels so good

I AM HYPE

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Doc Louis frowns upon everyone saying this looks too difficult.

Time to hit the training room with the Koopa Prince..

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I want to give you an award for pulling this off even once on that 3DS circle pad. I'm impressed.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

Yeaaaaah I'm going to wait for the wii u version for this one.

Great find btw.

 

[Signia]

There kind of is, actually: unlike melee pivots, perfect pivots put your character in its idle animation, so nothing stops you from pivoting, waiting several frames then doing a tilt. Still freaking hard, but not that impossible to do imperfectly.

Actually, in Melee you can pivot into the idle animation using the same stick flick technique. Some call it an "empty pivot." I use to try doing pivot utilts with Marth, and it was really hard to do fast enough to make it better than wavedashing into it. But maybe it'll be useful in Smash 4 because it'll still be faster than any alternative.

For doing fast tilts, I've been messing around with a controller-tilting technique, where you press hard on the stick in neutral position with your thumb, grip the controller tightly, and tilt the whole controller the opposite direction that you want to tilt. This way, the stick can be moved into tilt range very quickly in a more controlled manner. With the right grip it's impossible to move the stick into the smash range. Even without a perfect grip, it should at least add some resistance you can stop the stick more easily. Small, quick movements with thumbs are hard to stop, but quick wrist motions into locked positions are easy to control.

Ah, the beauty of requiring execution... it makes body mechanics into game mechanics.

 

[Big-Cat]

I wonder how many characters will find this extremely useful. With Little Mac it's obvious, but I wonder if Bowser can benefit.