Perfect Pivot, Foxtrotting, Dashdancing

[Donkeykong98123]

You can dash, then pivot and instantly do an F-smash.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I've been trying this and it's getting easier as I go. The most I can reliably pull off in an actual match without running too big a risk of screwing myself over is a short dash dance into a roll cancelled grab, dash attack or pivot tilt, but it's feeling better and I'm excited to see how much this affects the ground game. Thanks for the great first post and input explanations!

 

[NeonTogepi]

Man, I want to implement this, but roll-cancel grabs already made me worried for my 3DS. I think I'm gonna have to swap mains until the Wii U version is out. I don't want to play a watered down, non-AT using Little Mac, but I also don't wanna kill my circle pad.

 

[Yikarur]

All this stuff was present in Brawl already, except for the reverse tilt/smash of course. No one really used it.
What the OP calls "perfect pivot" has always been called "true pivot" btw.

I've already played arround with all that stuff but it's too hard for me to do with the circle pad

 

[JJpalmer]

Marth and Lucina rising on that tier list for Wii U version once this is mastered.

Oh yea lol i need to learn this since i play Ike and approaching is my weakness haha.

 

[JJpalmer]

whats the brawl dash dance input sorry for being kinda dumb in that regard

 

[Reizilla]

I remember trying to get this down in Brawl for retreating pivot grabs. I could only ever do it while facing right :/

 

[DavemanCozy]

This should be stickied. No random tripping only makes this instantly more safe to do

 

[MINI]

Going to test this out instantly!
Thanks for posting!

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Basically the same thing as that Italian video, with some cool new showcases of its application!

I've been saying this forever, that Smash 4 has melee-like movement options that replace wavedashing and melee dash dancing, and in a way that's both more intuitive and universal (instead of some characters having useless wavedashes, etc.). Now can you people stop saying "Sakurai lied, it's not between Melee and Brawl it's Brawl 2.0", "I want to move my character the way I want to", etc. Sakurai doesn't lie, he's a brilliant designer who is also the creator of Melee.

Thanks for making these videos, now I can share them! :D

 

[Highwayman300]

This is simply amazing, it took me quite a few hours to pull it off consistently and even more to incorporate it into my game but it helps his approach so much. Best part is that opponents online don't even know what to do or what is even happening.

To those having trouble at first, i would recommend using your index finger to learn the timing, after that, start getting fast with your thumb.

And it appears my circle pad is currently pretty solid too, maybe the 2DS one is a bit sturdier than the 3DS pad?

 

[RanserSSF4]

This is simply amazing, it took me quite a few hours to pull it off consistently and even more to incorporate it into my game but it helps his approach so much. Best part is that opponents online don't even know what to do or what is even happening.

To those having trouble at first, i would recommend using your index finger to learn the timing, after that, start getting fast with your thumb.

And it appears my circle pad is currently pretty solid too, maybe the 2DS one is a bit sturdier than the 3DS pad?

How long did that take?

 

[Gawain]

Strong options overall. Somewhat unreliable on some characters using the 3DS. Remember, characters have different timings on their foxtrot. Some of these are very difficult to do with ZSS. I would recommend sticking to the extended dash-dancing until the console version comes out, to be honest. The 3DS isn't suited to high levels of input like this. Blazblue on the 3DS had the same problems.

 

[Highwayman300]

How long did that take?

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, 4-6 hours of constant hammering my head against the wall, and 2 learning how to properly use it.
If you don't think you are fast enough, greasing up the circle pad a bit helps.

 

[DerfMidWest]

How long did that take?

don't worry about that kind of stuff. It'll take you as long as it takes you to learn it.
everyone learns tech at a different rate.
In melee, when I was teaching people to wavedash, a few of them took like a month before they could do it consistently, a couple others were able to do perfect wavedashes across fd after like 15 minutes.

just practice until you can do it, and don't get frustrated if you can't for awhile.
focus on progress, not perfection.
Worry about perfection later.

 

[RanserSSF4]

don't worry about that kind of stuff. It'll take you as long as it takes you to learn it.
everyone learns tech at a different rate.
In melee, when I was teaching people to wavedash, a few of them took like a month before they could do it consistently, a couple others were able to do perfect wavedashes across fd after like 15 minutes.

just practice until you can do it, and don't get frustrated if you can't for awhile.
focus on progress, not perfection.
Worry about perfection later.

I do plan on practicing it, but I don't know when.

 

[DerfMidWest]

good talk.

 

[Deitylight]

How do you do this without destroying your 3ds?

 

[Signia]

All this stuff was present in Brawl already, except for the reverse tilt/smash of course. No one really used it.
What the OP calls "perfect pivot" has always been called "true pivot" btw.

I've already played arround with all that stuff but it's too hard for me to do with the circle pad

In Brawl do you slide when you do it like in Smash 4 but unlike Melee?

 

[Gawain]

How do you do this without destroying your 3ds?

Fast but not hard.

 

[Darklink401]

I'm trying this, and it looks fine. Actually multiple dashes when running is better than a single long one, because if you want to dodge-roll, in a long dash you'd have to tap it again and shield, while in the multiple dashes, you're going pretty much as fast, but you'd already be in a tap-position so you just have to press R and boom, behind opponent. Not sure if this would work at extreme levels but I like it.
Also the one thing this game has goin for it NO other Smash game has had is the whole pivot attack thing, right? That's pretty cool.

Sakurai's pretty cool.


Also this doesn't kill my 3ds. Maybe you just gotta do it softly, but fast. Not too hard. In fact it's quite the opposite.

o3o

 

[shininimuss]

Basically the same thing as that Italian video, with some cool new showcases of its application!

I've been saying this forever, that Smash 4 has melee-like movement options that replace wavedashing and melee dash dancing, and in a way that's both more intuitive and universal (instead of some characters having useless wavedashes, etc.). Now can you people stop saying "Sakurai lied, it's not between Melee and Brawl it's Brawl 2.0", "I want to move my character the way I want to", etc. Sakurai doesn't lie, he's a brilliant designer who is also the creator of Melee.

Thanks for making these videos, now I can share them! :D

how is dashing forward to dash backwards more intuitive?

 

[Maniak]

I have been messing around alot with dash dancing but wow those pivots must train more.

 

[Gawain]

I'm trying this, and it looks fine. Actually multiple dashes when running is better than a single long one, because if you want to dodge-roll, in a long dash you'd have to tap it again and shield, while in the multiple dashes, you're going pretty much as fast, but you'd already be in a tap-position so you just have to press R and boom, behind opponent. Not sure if this would work at extreme levels but I like it.
Also the one thing this game has goin for it NO other Smash game has had is the whole pivot attack thing, right? That's pretty cool.

Sakurai's pretty cool.


Also this doesn't kill my 3ds. Maybe you just gotta do it softly, but fast. Not too hard. In fact it's quite the opposite.

o3o

Rolling out of dash is a horrid idea for the most part. Shielding out of dash is a lot safer and gives you a million more options. Unless you master the perfect pivot you aren't going to be shielding out of your foxtrot, so I'd say its situational at best unless you can perfect pivot on command every single time. Normal dash into shield is still a much safer approach vs projectiles.

 

[Darklink401]

Rolling out of dash is a horrid idea for the most part. Shielding out of dash is a lot safer and gives you a million more options. Unless you master the perfect pivot you aren't going to be shielding out of your foxtrot, so I'd say its situational at best unless you can perfect pivot on command every single time. Normal dash into shield is still a much safer approach vs projectiles.

What if it gets you behind the opponent?

Then again I guess getting that close would be hard anyway...XD

 

[Gawain]

What if it gets you behind the opponent?

Then again I guess getting that close would be hard anyway...XD

Even if it gets you behind your opponent they probably have enough time to get out of the way or pivot tilt you. You always have more time to react if you choose a different option.

 

[Darklink401]

I guess that's true. There is some lag after a dodge XP

I have a lot to learn about this whole competitive smash thing~

 

[Gawain]

I've concluded that doing the extended dash dance with ZSS is literally impossible on 3DS. The input timing on her foxtrot is just way, way too precise to do the two directions that fast, that consistently.

 

[Darklink401]

There are certain characters with whom its easier, thats for sure.

 

[Kayeka]

Soooo, could someone help out a n00b and explain to me why this is so important? What are the kind of things one can do with this?

I'm sure that it's pretty darn great, judging from your reactions, but I'd like to know why I'm going to torture my thumbs for the next few hours.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Soooo, could someone help out a n00b and explain to me why this is so important? What are the kind of things one can do with this?

I'm sure that it's pretty darn great, judging from your reactions, but I'd like to know why I'm going to torture my thumbs for the next few hours.

It gives you more movement options.

For example -- Let's say you're Lucina and this Shulk just missed his attack and is suffering heavy lag. You want to fsmash him for the kill. But he's at an awkward distance. If you dash, and then fsmash, you will have to wait for your dash to end and you won't be able to hit him in time, and using a long dash into dash attack wouldn't be as ideal of a punish. Walking is too slow as well.

So here you have an application of dash dancing, you can input a short dash, then input another dash then cancel it immediately into a Fsmash. There you go, a super fast short dash followed up by an immediate Fsmash, with perfectly beautiful spacing!

That's just one basic example.

More complex situations would involve both players using dash dancing to make it hard for the opponent to read them and thus make it hard to hit them and allow each other to bait and punish approaches by the other.

With dash dancing, there are many more options available thanks to being able to overcome the ending lag of dashes. That combined with foxtrotting (at least, for characters that have good foxtrots) allows you to virtually perform any move while dashing. Usually if you're doing a normal dash, you are limited to jump, dash attack, B moves, dash grab, or up smash. That's why standing position has advantages (especially characters with bad dash grabs). But with a combination of these techniques, you can have the advantages of dashing (speed, mobility) while also having the flexibility of the whole moveset available to you. As a result you have a fast paced, intense game of spacing, reads, baits, and punishes!

Hope that helped a bit!

 

[Kayeka]

It gives you more movement options.

For example -- Let's say you're Lucina and this Shulk just missed his attack and is suffering heavy lag. You want to fsmash him for the kill. But he's at an awkward distance. If you dash, and then fsmash, you will have to wait for your dash to end and you won't be able to hit him in time, and using a long dash into dash attack wouldn't be as ideal of a punish. Walking is too slow as well.

So here you have an application of dash dancing, you can input a short dash, then input another dash then cancel it immediately into a Fsmash. There you go, a super fast short dash followed up by an immediate Fsmash, with perfectly beautiful spacing!

That's just one basic example.

More complex situations would involve both players using dash dancing to make it hard for the opponent to read them and thus make it hard to hit them and allow each other to bait and punish approaches by the other.

With dash dancing, there are many more options available thanks to being able to overcome the ending lag of dashes. That combined with foxtrotting (at least, for characters that have good foxtrots) allows you to virtually perform any move while dashing. Usually if you're doing a normal dash, you are limited to jump, dash attack, B moves, dash grab, or up smash. That's why standing position has advantages (especially characters with bad dash grabs). But with a combination of these techniques, you can have the advantages of dashing (speed, mobility) while also having the flexibility of the whole moveset available to you. As a result you have a fast paced, intense game of spacing, reads, baits, and punishes!

Hope that helped a bit!

Read your post, tried it out in training mode, and look at that, it actually works. Still difficult to do consistently, but I should be okay eventually. Thanks a lot for the pointers.

 

[DTR]

im not sure if anyone pointed this out yet and it was nowhere in the original post. you can basically buffer a pivot after a fox trot by immediately crouching then hitting the opposite direction. basically a quick semicircle motion. its way easier than perfect pivot and much larger depending on the character. some have better ones than other based on their dash distance/turn around out of crouch speed. id recommend trying it out with fox. its the closest thing to wd backwards ive seen in this game and I feel like it will be much better when c sticks are a thing

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

im not sure if anyone pointed this out yet and it was nowhere in the original post. you can basically buffer a pivot after a fox trot by immediately crouching then hitting the opposite direction. basically a quick semicircle motion. its way easier than perfect pivot and much larger depending on the character. some have better ones than other based on their dash distance/turn around out of crouch speed. id recommend trying it out with fox. its the closest thing to wd backwards ive seen in this game and I feel like it will be much better when c sticks are a thing

Nice find!

 

[Gawain]

im not sure if anyone pointed this out yet and it was nowhere in the original post. you can basically buffer a pivot after a fox trot by immediately crouching then hitting the opposite direction. basically a quick semicircle motion. its way easier than perfect pivot and much larger depending on the character. some have better ones than other based on their dash distance/turn around out of crouch speed. id recommend trying it out with fox. its the closest thing to wd backwards ive seen in this game and I feel like it will be much better when c sticks are a thing

Unless I'm doing something wrong, you can actually do this simply by softly pressing in the other direction during the foxtrot. You don't need to hit down. This is useful, but still nowhere near as powerful as the true pivot unfortunately.

 

[Joe73191]

Until I see this version of dash-dancing being used, in tournament as effectively as dash-dancing in Melee is used, I'm not celebrate just yet.

 

[Gawain]

Until I see this version of dash-dancing being used, in tournament as effectively as dash-dancing in Melee is used, I'm not celebrate just yet.

I doubt anyone will use it until the GC controllers are out because, for a lot of characters, the timing is very precise. Some characters can be done reliably with the circlepad, like Little Mac and Captain Falcon, but the real thing that makes it strong is being able to perfect pivot at any time during the dash dance, which lets you do anythign you want out of it, as long as you are fast enough with your fingers. It took a long time for people to develop the skills used in modern Melee's techniques. Many years, in fact. Go watch some early Melee tournaments. There's a shocking amount of campy gameplay. People need to just give Smash 4 time to mature on its own terms.

 

[Victor Coelho]

Hey there guys , noob here =)

Ok, i've spent an hour on training with little mac (even though i dont really use him) just to try those techs out and i really cannot get anything out like the ones posted on those videos lol
For example, i cannot get the jabs after a pivot, just a side tilt smash...

Also, i've been trying to do some stuff with ZSS after watching choco matches and theres something i dont get how its done. He jumped above the enemy, changed sides in the air and landed firing that neutral B stun gun... anybody know how its done?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hey there guys , noob here =)

Ok, i've spent an hour on training with little mac (even though i dont really use him) just to try those techs out and i really cannot get anything out like the ones posted on those videos lol
For example, i cannot get the jabs after a pivot, just a side tilt smash...

You don't need to flick the stick hard to get it. Just a light flick the other way gets you the 1-frame turnaround. Remember: the circle pad just needs to register a 1-frame input in the other direction, so you can even just tilt it slightly the other way and let go really quickly to get the turnaround too.

 

[Darklink401]

I believe you can turn midair with an attack now, if done at the right time, isn't that right?