Perfect Pivot, Foxtrotting, Dashdancing

[ChaseRLewis]

Honestly I imagine a d-pad would be better for this kind of technique compared to an analog stick. My issue with the technique is more so I get a reverse dash rather then a turn around if I jam the stick quickly in another direction turning the movement into basically a 0 distance moved fox trot.

 

[LordIzanagi]

Sounds like people who can press buttons quickly to do these exploits have an unfair advantage.

Oh wait sorry wrong game.

Please don't, this is not an exploit.

 

[Empyrean]

At first I thought this was gonna be hard to master, but after roughly 40 minutes it already became considerably easy to perfect pivot in both ways. I still need a lot of practice to do it consistently and in battle, but I can see this being really useful for a lot of characters, while others just don't get much distance, if any, like DK and Samus.

Now foxtrot dashdancing on the other hand...
that **** hard

 

[Silic0n]

At first I thought this was gonna be hard to master, but after roughly 40 minutes it already became considerably easy to perfect pivot in both ways. I still need a lot of practice to do it consistently and in battle, but I can see this being really useful for a lot of characters, while others just don't get much distance, if any, like DK and Samus.

Now foxtrot dashdancing on the other hand...
that **** hard

That's so funny, my problem is that I'm only able to foxtrot dashdance but I'm really bad at perfect pivoting.

 

[Othayuni]

I'm just here to say this thread is gorgeous and I'm so happy there's this level of technique in smash 4

 

[SigmaStrain]

Do you have any tips besides just practicing it? Like your thumb movement or anything? I've been doing it for a couple of hours too but can't get the hang of the perfect pivot down.

My tip would be to flick the stick. Just get good at doing that and you can execute these techs with ease

 

[XeroForeverxf]

Melee fox SHDL is a 2 frame window iirc. People consistently waveshine. Fiction is starting to be able to break shields off of multishines (well, was until hand problems). In street fighter people hammer out 1-frame links nonstop.

There's no excuse for people not being able to execute something THIS useful

Except there's no way in Smash to make 1 frame links easier, at least in SF4 we have plinking. And even then in the midst of battle there is still room for error. (Why Sakura players have shortened a lot of their combos for slightly less damage.)

 

[Gidy]

I haven't seen players doing these movement options. Is this even viable?

 

[Othayuni]

I haven't seen players doing these movement options. Is this even viable?

I would have to say yes! I've been applying them in battles and although my execution success is limited so far, when I do execute properly they serve important functions in diversifying your maneuvering and creating openings where there otherwise were none, or slipping in to openings that were formerly out of reach. I'm not a pro at them yet, but I feel a lot of potential and they're serving me even at the level I'm at.

 

[Chiroz]

Hey, I was wondering. Sometimes I am able to perfect pivot while facing the opposite direction. (As turn around and then slide forward instead of backwards).

Is there a special input for this? I can't quite figure it out.

 

[busken]

Instead of retreating ftilt, can you do a retreating fsmash?

 

[SirHeru]

Pulling off pivot grabs is pretty easy for me, but pivoting in general and especially pivot dancing is pretty impossible for me? Do you guys have any useful tips other than "practise more"?

Also is this easier to pull of with a GC controller compared to the Wii U pro controller? Still don't have an adapter.

 

[[Deuce]]

Pulling off pivot grabs is pretty easy for me, but pivoting in general and especially pivot dancing is pretty impossible for me? Do you guys have any useful tips other than "practise more"?

Also is this easier to pull of with a GC controller compared to the Wii U pro controller? Still don't have an adapter.

I switched to a wii u pro controller. Its easier on the pro controller, the gate radius is smaller. You just gotta get used to the new layout, which took me a month after trying out different control setups (used to shorthop with X on a gc controller, now I do it with R)

 

[Nate22Hill]

how come every time i perform a perfect pivot, my chracter changes directions after doing so

 

[Creede]

@ Nate22Hill Changes direction? That's what it's supposed to do. Unless you mean that your momentum changes when you try to perfect pivot, which would mean you aren't actually perfect pivoting. More detail would be helpful.

 

[COLINBG]

how come every time i perform a perfect pivot, my chracter changes directions after doing so

That's because you're not performing a perfect pivot.

Edit: Ninja'd by Creede

 

[Nate22Hill]

@ Nate22Hill Changes direction? That's what it's supposed to do. Unless you mean that your momentum changes when you try to perfect pivot, which would mean you aren't actually perfect pivoting. More detail would be helpful.

if my back is facing to the left when i perfect pivot to the left my chracter ends up on the left but then immeaditely turns around so my back is facing to the right

 

[Creede]

if my back is facing to the left when i perfect pivot to the left my chracter ends up on the left but then immeaditely turns around so my back is facing to the right

You aren't perfect pivoting then. On the off chance you found more tech, video of this would be nice.

 

[GSM_Dren]

if my back is facing to the left when i perfect pivot to the left my chracter ends up on the left but then immeaditely turns around so my back is facing to the right

It sounds like you're not letting the control stick reset to neutral position. It's reading an input in the opposite direction from after you complete the perfect pivot.

 

[infomon]

That sometimes happens to me after a perfect pivot, I perfect pivot and then standing-pivot again. Because I let my control stick go a little past neutral to the left, after the PP.

 

[Azazel]

I haven't seen players doing these movement options. Is this even viable?

Have you seen nairo's pit?

 

[kirby3021]

That sometimes happens to me after a perfect pivot, I perfect pivot and then standing-pivot again. Because I let my control stick go a little past neutral to the left, after the PP.

Thanks for that explanation, I was having issues with the "double pivot," which could also be useful in its own way.

 

[kirby3021]

Does anyone else have trouble perfect pivoting on the 3ds?

 

[Creede]

Does anyone else have trouble perfect pivoting on the 3ds?

I don't have trouble. I use a 2DS and it's pretty easy.

 

[Jaguar360]

I have trouble perfect pivoting on 3DS as well, but I'm not too great with AT's in general and I don't have the Wii U version to compare.

 

[ThirdDay]

After doing some testing, it appears that the combination of Smash 4's lack of tripunique dash dancing and pivot mechanics, combined with Foxtrotting, create some very potent options such as "wavebounced" FTilts and the ability to do *anything* out of a dash or foxtrot.

Glossary:

• SSB4 dashdancing: Inputting a dash in the opposite direction in the first few frames of a dash. In SSB4, any dash inputted this way has no initial momentum, allowing you to make your dash however short you want by timing your release of the stick. If you let go of the stick after only a couple frames, you do a stationary dash. If you let go of the stick after only one frame, you do a Perfect Pivot.

• Perfect Pivot: In the first few frames of a dash, inputting the opposite direction for only one frame (can be done by flicking the stick) will perform a regular, lagless standing turnaround animation that can be instantly cancelled with any move. You keep some momentum from the direction of the initial dash.

• Fox Trot: Inputting a second dash in the same direction during a specific window towards the end of the initial dash animation. Combined with a perfect pivot, you can do anything out of a fox trot.

• Turnaround tilt: Inputting a forward tilt during the run turnaround animation.

Applications, starring Little Mac. (he gets the most out of these, but the retreating ftilt is great for everyone):

Foxtrot + Brawl dashdancing:

Extended dashdancing:

Input: →, →←, ←→, →←, ...
Because it gives you no initial momentum, the dashdance length can be reduced to nil with fast enough fingers/a GC controller.

Perfect Pivot:

Input: →[single frame ←]

Fox Trot -> Pivot Jab

Input: →, →[single frame←] . A

Retreating FTilt/Dashbouncing (Fox trot, -> Dashdance -> Turnaround tilt):

Input: →, →← [wait for the dashdance window to end], →A
You can adjust the sliding distance with how long you hold left.

Foxtrot->FSmash (not pictured because this isn't new, but you'll do it a lot when trying the next one so I might as well point out there's an easier way)
Input: →, →A

"Dash-Canceled" FTilt (Foxtrot -> Dashdance -> Perfect Pivot -> FTilt):

Input: →, →[single frame←] [soft→] A
This is hard. You need to both do the input fast enough to do a perfect pivot, without hitting the stick so hard that you perform a FSmash. Possibly a good reason to wait for the Wii U version to play Little Mac, as I feel like this move will murder your opponents and your 3DS alike.

This is really helpful. Great explanations of all the inputs and techniques. Great thread.

 

[KanjiGames]

Are there any tipps on mastering extended dashdancing or a Video that shows the Hands while doing it?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

With all of these mobility options you have so many options to polish your footsies mobility. If you can anticipate your opponent's offensive/defensive reaction to your extended dash dances and when they will react you can virtually get any punish you want thanks to the plethora of options available while dashing. As you gain experience you can master adaptation making this all the more potent. The possibilities are boundless through these movement options and I can't wait fot it to become norm and further push the meta.

 

[Smash_Akuma]

I understand that wavedashing in Melee was important, but why are these techniques important here?

 

[Jenna Zant]

I understand that wavedashing in Melee was important, but why are these techniques important here?

The exact same reason. It allows you to move while attacking.

 

[Smash_Akuma]

Alright. It's harder on Smash 4 because of the stupid 3DS lol

 

[imnotdannyboy]

Hi! I recently tried to learn to perfect pivot on the gamecube controller. I have had little success. I can kinda get it done by manually moving the control stick to just a tiny bit past neutral, but I've had no success with the flick. So far I get like 1 out of every 10 attempts.

However, I tried it on a 3ds, and with no practice I was having tons of success! The flick worked. I assume this is because my gamecube controller is from 2004-ish and the tension on the stick has been reduced, while my 3ds has a high tension circle pad.

Is there anything I can do? When I flick I get the stand-in-place run, so I know that I'm fast enough. I just can't hit that 1 frame window.

Can anyone explain the flick to me? Maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

 

[Royug]

imnotdannyboy I have the same problem as you. I can't perfect pivot with my old GC controller, because the analog stick is a bit loose. I thought I was just bad at doing it, or that the timing was too strict, but then I tried with the gamepad and my pro controller and it was lot more easy. The only solution there is, is to buy a new GC controller, or to switch to a pro controller, I'm afraid. :/

 

[imnotdannyboy]

imnotdannyboy I have the same problem as you. I can't perfect pivot with my old GC controller, because the analog stick is a bit loose. I thought I was just bad at doing it, or that the timing was too strict, but then I tried with the gamepad and my pro controller and it was lot more easy. The only solution there is, is to buy a new GC controller, or to switch to a pro controller, I'm afraid. :/

Ahh, yeah, my controller is in better condition than the other ones we got around the same time, but the analog stick totally wiggles freely just a bit in the very center. I bet it's not snapping back quick enough. Thanks for the input I'll check out the one Smashboards was advertising on sale.

 

[Poopysandwich]

Might be good to also incorporate this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDQoxMARFMk as a controllable movement option for characters with high traction.

The combination of these Smash 4 movement techniques are more difficult than Melee's combination, where flick-pivoting wasn't nearly as necessary. In Smash 4, instead of an instant, actionable stop in movement, empty pivot is a safer wavedash that turns you around. Foxtrotting and skid-cancelling also require difficult judgement in determining when you're allowed to do certain things or else you get messed up. And everything requires stick-flicks and annoying turn arounds that often require fast side-tilting to face the direction you want and then fast tilting up or down for dtilts.

Much less convenient than wavedashing, since you can always jump out of everything and airdodge into the ground, and wide initial dash dancing, where all you have to do is smash and hold directions. Also it was super easy to hold the tilt-direction during the wavedash's vulnerable frames if you wanted to move and do a tilt attack.

At least movement options are there, though. But imagine having to move using only full dashes, foxtrotting, long initial dashes to empty pivots (to simulate "perfect pivot" Smash 4 sliding) in Melee. Super hard and not as precise.

With a lot of effort and execution, Melee-like control might be attainable, though.

i move using this a lot of time because if its helpful and possible you can make it consistent. once you get used to it it becomes natural. the hardest part would be spacing your foxtrott and turn around down tilts

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Someone please sticky this.


In a game like smash, you'd think that people would know that movement is one of the most important things to learn.

 

[Mr Purple]

Is there anyone here who can answer a few technical questions for me?


- How many frames before each character can act out of a single foxtrot? ( for a jab and for starting another foxtrot)

- How many frames before each character can act out of their running turn around animation? (not the turning skid you get from a quick tap) This seems like the quickest way jab\tilt out of a run for many characters.

- What attribute makes Fox unable to control his perfect pivot length like most other characters?

- What attribute makes Palutena unable to perfect pivot in rapid succession like other characters? (Is there a standing turn around speed list somewhere?)


If nobody has this data, can someone teach me how to accurately count frames?

 

[Mr Purple]

Ok, I got impatient and started getting the data myself. I recorded the standing turn speed, fox trot, skid, and first cancelable frame of the turn animation. Someone could probably just datamine for this stuff, but oh well.

There is a really strange property for canceling the turn animation as soon as possible. The longer you hold the turn direction, the more frames it cuts from the total time before you can act out of it. For example with greninja, holding away from the run for 2 frames, the first actionable frame will be 36, holding it for 6 frames the first actionable frame will be 24, and holding for 10 frames will make the first actionable frame 12 which is the sweet spot. All characters i've tested can cancel their foxtrot into a quickstep at frame 16 with bidou. Canceling the running turn seems comparable. It can be spaced more accurately than something like a quickstep out of foxtrott and doesn't require bidou. (though bidou helps)

Greninja gains a viable option since his skid animation(24) and single foxtrot(26) are slow, but his canceled turn animation is as low as 12. Mac, Yoshi, Rosalina, Sheik, Zelda, and Samus have a sweet spot under 15 frames as well. Some characters like bowser have a sweet spot of 12 like greninja, but his running skid is an amazing 9 frames already, so there is no need.

For the palutena question I had, perfect pivots seem tied to standing turn speed. Some characters like palutena and bowser Jr have 16 turn frames instead of 11(?), making it take much longer to perfect pivot in succession. Standing turns can be canceled into anything but another turn or dash in the opposite direction it seems. I may be misinterpreting something though.

Is this stuff already known?

I still don't know why fox can't control his perfect pivot length.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Fox Is Openly Deceptive would you mind sticking this thread?

Reason: this thread should be stickied since it provide a concrete way of improvement. Movement is as central to the neutral as attacks and defensive options, and further enchances these options. It's also good for majority of characters since it provides options out of run and dash, which a lot of characters can benefit from. For example, G&W can benefit from having the threat range of his tilts increased, and sonic's neutral could benefit from gaining new options out of run and dash, so that'll keep him neutral from being more linear.

It'll really benefit those looking for ways of improvement and benefit character loyalists.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Fox Is Openly Deceptive would you mind sticking this thread?

Reason: this thread should be stickied since it provide a concrete way of improvement. Movement is as central to the neutral as attacks and defensive options, and further enchances these options. It's also good for majority of characters since it provides options out of run and dash, which a lot of characters can benefit from. For example, G&W can benefit from having the threat range of his tilts increased, and sonic's neutral could benefit from gaining new options out of run and dash, so that'll keep him neutral from being more linear.

It'll really benefit those looking for ways of improvement and benefit character loyalists.

I'll talk to Shaya about it, but the OP is old and is missing important things.