Peach+ Get Pimpslapped!

[leafgreen386]

I came in here to correct this misunderstanding, but looks like Magus420 beat me to it!


Yes, the Peach frame data thread is a bit odd in that respect. In addition all shield stun numbers are suspect because at the time they were done without knowledge that move decay effected stun, so as a result some of them may be off.




Anyways, here's some incomplete aerial data I did I while back that should be more useful to you guys: (fair is complete though)

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6596758&postcount=107


Also please pardon the somewhat silly "Shield hitlag differential" statistic . The definition for it is at the bottom of the post.

Ah, this data makes considerably more sense. It would be really helpful if data wasn't listed as "shieldstun" when it actually is composed of both shieldhitstun and shieldhitlag >_>

Well, false alarm. She still has a guaranteed grab from it, though.

 

[Arkaether]

Yeah. If shieldstun is 5, with the new formula you still have 13-14 frames advantage. Which is still absurd considering that her grab comes out frame 6 and it's stupid to get punished for successfully blocking a move. It's an unavoidable setup, and those are never a good idea.

 

[crazycrackers]

Ah, this data makes considerably more sense. It would be really helpful if data wasn't listed as "shieldstun" when it actually is composed of both shieldhitstun and shieldhitlag >_>

Well, false alarm. She still has a guaranteed grab from it, though.

LOL! Well thats a relief...so whats the new brawl+ data on fair?

EDIT: oops. saw the new data. I'd say the frame advantage on fair should just replicate the frame advantage on melee FC fair....the fact that its a free grab is kind of ridiculous.

 

[Arkaether]

Yeah. I doubt anyone would mind a +2 or +4 frame advantage, but +13 is just ridiculous.

 

[Magus420]

Where are you getting +13 from? 13 would be the new stun not the actual advantage. There's 3 before you can land so that it will autocancel, and then 2 for a soft landing. Subtract another possible 1 if the hitlag difference of 1 in the opponent's favor remains after the hitlag code. You get either a +7 or +8.

 

[GHNeko]

Still enough for a grab. No one should get a free grab due to shield stun advantage.

 

[crazycrackers]

+4 frame advantage is good imo. Grab comes out on frame 6

 

[GHNeko]

Enough of a frame advantage for jab, but not for grab, that way she can still punish spot dodges with Fair AC, but if they block fair, they can at least retaliate in some way.

EDIT: I say 4.

 

[crazycrackers]

After talking about it a couple minutes ago with Neko, a 4 frame advantage seems right.

 

[crazycrackers]

Alright so, we don't want to take the speed/lagnessness away from fair...thats for sure since we don't want to change the awesome dynamic of the move. Therefore I'd imagine that the fix would be:

1. Lower the base knockback on fair which ultimately creates less shieldstun so that the frame advantage on fair is 4 frames.

2. Increase the knockback growth on fair after lowering the base knockback so that fair will still kill at the same percents.

This way fair's awesome pressuring/killing/laglessness are still kept in tact but a fair on shield doesn't create a free grab. 4 frames is basically perfect imho.

 

[Arkaether]

Oops, forgot to add AC and landing for the frame advantage. Still, though, it's a guaranteed grab. Which is why I want a +4 advantage.

 

[GHNeko]

^ this.

10I'mokaywithtthis

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It's not hard to powershield or overpower slow, easily seen attacks like Peach's fair. In fact, it's way harder for Peach to setup a perfect Fair advantage so that guaranteed grabs are actually possible against anyone paying attention. It's a viable punishment for people who simply camp in their shields, and Peach's grab is really not a big threat when it connects.

 

[GHNeko]

Though it may not be hard, 2 frames is still small, and you're not guaranteed to power shield every time.

Plus, what if someone doesn't camp shields? I dont camp shields. I'm actually pretty aggressive and I'm not fond of camping. If anything, I need to shield for being too aggressive.

Its not a big threat? And? You're still getting twice the amount of damage for blocking a move. No move should guarantee a free grab on block. :/

It's still a good kill move and pressure tool. It just doesnt need a free grab on block.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I would agree if Peach's Fair were a fast move. It's not, though.

 

[GHNeko]

No move should have that quality. No other move in the game has the quality.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Good, quickly decisive players really will not be affected by it. You're underestimating the actual ease of powershielding an easily recognized attack even under the apparent limitation of a 2 frame window. If the Peach player can consistently get the execution down to +7 or +8 advantage which has next to no room for error, then the target can just as easily start powershielding the attack with the same consistency, and now they have the frame advantage.

I don't see what the problem is even if the quality is unique because Peach's grab/throw game is far from the power of other characters. She has to Fair on top of you or advance strongly into you for the grab to be guaranteed without her needed to move once grounded, and that's also no guarantee against moving targets who are making threats of their own.

As we seem to like saying about top tiers that are still in questionable need of nerfing "it's not broken, it's just really good." No other character in the game has MK wtfpwnage moveset but we choose to turn a blind eye to the problem and instead treat some symptoms to only prolong the pain. In sheer honesty, a guaranteed grab from Peach off a tricky, telegraphed Fair setup really isn't *that* good.

 

[GHNeko]

It's not that good. I just dont believe any move is worth of that quality. :/

As it is, you generally either have to avoid the hitbox of fair completely or beat it out before it can strike.

 

[crazycrackers]

In all reality, this wasn't really a big deal in the end. If your Peach and using fair, you'll trying to be spacing it. If you don't space fair well people can hit you out of the air so in order to even get the guarunteed grab you needed to land on them really close with fair. If you did a moderately well-spaced fair, you would have to dash grab which would take too long. Still, I don't miss it since my Peach is really spacing-focused like many other Peaches so I didn't get into the situation to frame-trap grab very often.

 

[crazycrackers]

Alright well all the sudden this thread seems a lot less active. What textures does everyone use? I use gothic peach (with the skirt) and NES peach :D

 

[BeepBopRobot]

i use shadow queen peach usually.

 

[Meru.]

Currently, none, because PAL still doesn't have File Replacement 2.1. I can use File Replacement 1.3, but it'll make playing online harder, since not everyone has it in their set.

Anyway, I use Striker Peach, Striker Daisy, Misa Amane, ARACHNÉ and another texture from which I forgot the name.

Oh and:

Peach's tilts are too awesome. I'll maybe go more into this later.

 

[a male platypus]

I think Fair should actually have more knockback to be honest, not TOO much more but a little bit wouldn't hurt compared to the KO power of the most of the cast.

Also, I personally use the Casandra texture for my Peach :D

 

[GHNeko]

I think Fair should actually have more knockback to be honest, not TOO much more but a little bit wouldn't hurt compared to the KO power of the most of the cast.

Also, I personally use the Casandra texture for my Peach :D

Peach Fair lost Base KB in exchange for more KB Growth. More Base KB would increase shield stun, which was the issue and reason why we reduced Base KB.

 

[crazycrackers]

In addition, while it would be nice to have a stronger fair, Peach doesn't need it. Shes already doing great in brawl+ and we're trying to maintain a character's weaknesses (killing power for peach) while reataining, or even expanding on their strengths. Peach has improved a lot since regular Brawl and buffing her fair would be unneccesary. I mean, she's debatably top 10 (shes #10 though imo)

 

[Meru.]

IMO she's better than top 10. But, I think that she has a relatively harder learning curve than vBrawl and than the other characters.

 

[crazycrackers]

IMO she's better than top 10. But, I think that she has a relatively harder learning curve than vBrawl and than the other characters.

Ya she really does have a bit of a learning curve. Her game requires:

spacing
experience
lrn2float (no other character has to learn how to apply this)
good defensive play
good pressuring
prediction (not like bowser but she still needs to predict pretty well)
mix ups (don't be too obvious)
creativity
tech skill

About tech skill, I was kind of refering to the amount of ATs she has but those aren't hard so I'm actually mostly refering to stuff like instant float ground level aerials. For example, I've practiced nair a lot (ever since melee) to the point where I've actually broken my friend's shield with it.

 

[Meru.]

This thread keeps dying. Let's discuss something important. Match-ups, combos (there are A LOT of them), moves etc.

To contribute something and to stop letting this thread die, I want to give a quick summary of her underrated but amazing tilts.

Ftilt
Pros
- Good range
- Three different hitboxes for three different purposes:
* The close sweetspot hitbox: This one kills vertically well. 13%
* The distant hitbox: Doesn't kill very well, but good for combos. 10%
* The late hitbox: Doesn't kill at all, but awesome for combos. 6%
- Fast start-up (I think 6 frames)
- Good hitstun
- Can repeatedly combo into itself

Cons
- Start-up is good, the ending lag isn't. You can get punished badly.
- Pretty annoying if you get the wrong hitbox.

Examples of combos
- Ftilt repeatedly
- Ftilt (repeatedly) > Utilt
- Ftilt (repeatedly) > Usmash
- Ftilt (repeatedly) > Uair > Uair ....
- Ftilt (repeatedly) > Nair/Bair/Fair
- Ftilt (repeatedly) > Dair ...
- Dthrow > Ftilt (repeatedly) > ...
- Dsmash > Ftilt (repeatedly) > ...
- Bair > Ftilt (repeatedly) > ...
- Uthrow > Ftilt (repeatedly) > ... [ only at very low %'s] [ only vs. heavy or fastfallers ]
- Dtilt > Ftilt (repeatedly) > ...
- Frying Pan > Ftilt (repeatedly) > ...

Dtilt
Pros
- Great range
- Great for combos
- Incredible hitstun
- Good for edgeguarding
- Can spike (but don't count it, happens very rarely)
- Can slide

Cons
- A bit slow
- Slide can also be at your disadvantage if you want to combo

Examples of combos
- Dtilt > Any aerial [ Seriously, the hitstun is really great ]
- Dtilt > Dtilt (> Dtilt) > Ftilt (repeatedly) > ...
- To keep a long story short:
* At low %'s (approx. 50-) Dtilt can combo into almost anything.
* At higher %'s Dtilt still can easily combo into an aerial.
* If the % gets too high, try an Uair or a turnip or just bait them or something.

Utilt
Pros
- Hitbox is insane!
- Good hitstun (again)
- Can kill at higher %
- Pretty quick
- Beats every Dair and almost everything else
- Good combo finisher

Cons
- Utilt has only one purpose: hitting someone who is up you. And well, it fulfills his task well, so no cons for this one. (Though you might say that a con of Utilt is that it has only one purpose)

Examples of Combos
- Dtilt > Utilt [ Keep in mind that Dtilt can slide ]
- Dtiltslide > Utilt [ ... If you don't mind the slide, Utilt is a great option, it has a long slide ]
- Ftilt (repeatedly) > Utilt
- Dthrow > Utilt
- Uthrow > Utilt [ Very low %'s only ] [ Only works on certain characters ]
- Frying Pan > Utilt
- Usmash > Utilt [ Very low %'s only ]

 

[crazycrackers]

repeated ftilts don't combo into usmash/fair (from my experience). Also dtilt has insane hitstun and on fox/falco/falcon (not sure about wolf) dtilt actualy combos into usmash for the KILL! Since dtilt is a spike it can combo into practically any move. also with proper DI dthrow doesn't combo into that much (generally speaking). You can still get dash attacks off of it though.

Ftilt, Dtilt, and Uair are Peach's best combo moves in brawl+, especially on fast fallers. Dtilt has INSANE hitstun (I honestly can't think of a move that has more), Ftilt can combo into some nice stuff, which includes itself on fast fallers and co., and Uair can combo into Peach's others aerials, as well as itself. You can link about 3 or 4 aerials depending on the character your comboing. Platforms also help with uair juggles a lot.

And ya, this thread keeps dying and I don't want it to move to the bottom of the character discussion threads but I don't want to spam it with multiple posts.

 

[GHNeko]

Get more peach players on to B+. :V

 

[crazycrackers]

LOL there aren't that many regular brawl Peaches in the first place XD.

 

[Meru.]

There are some Peach+ players, but they don't post here so often.

repeated ftilts don't combo into usmash/fair (from my experience).

Repeated Ftilts > Usmash is possible around 50% (something like that I think), Im not sure about Fair though. I most Uair or Nair out of a Ftilt, if I want to attack with an aerial.

 

[crazycrackers]

I mostly do Uairs to juggle multiple times

 

[Dan_X]

Peach hate rant begin:

Peach is so amazingly rediculous. I cannot beat my friend's Peach with my main; Falco. It's seemingly the worst matchup in the entire world. What frustrates me the most is that when I play on a map like FD, a flat level where one would expect to be in favor of Falco, I get my butt handed back to me.

Laser spam doesn't do anything. Sure it slows down his approach options, but that's about it. The fact that Peach flotas back, and can choose when to use her Up+B, makes her one of the most difficult characters in the entire game to edgeguard. Peach combos Falco into oblivion, and his can do nothing back as far as comboing goes. I'm not sure why, but Peach, unlike many characters, can easily escape a Bair combo. The combo requires strict timing, generally, one can get off at least 2 or more Bairs, linking them together, however, against Peach I've found this impossible. She can always Nair before a second Bair connects. That cuts Falco's entire combo game. Perhaps some other characters can do this too, I'm not sure. What frustrates me is that I cannot for the life of me figure out how to finish Peach with Falco. I'm not a fool, I know how to play--- but I simply can't finish Peach. She can recover from everything Falco is capable of dishing out. If I try to Bair her in midst of her recover, like I would most other characters, she floats back an inch and a half, just beyond my reach, and I have no choice but to retreat back to the stage. This is always the case, there's simply no way of reaching her-- it's utterly useless.

We played for hours, Falco vs Peach. It makes me so mad. I'm SHDLing, DACUSing, using B-reversed lasers, Gattling comboing, but none of the technical skill matters... Falco's prime finisher, and not even a very good one, is his Bair. However, it is near impossible to hit a recovering Peach with it because she need only to float away a small amount. It's truly sad when I can't kill an enemy who has 200% damage, and my friend continues to run through my stocks unscathed. My next effective killing aerial comes in the flavor of Uair. But guess what? Once Peach is just a tad above 100% it is nearly impossible to catch her with it. A Utilt will throw her up far above the height of Falco's jump reaches. If that's not worse, she can usually jump before the Utilt connects anyway.

I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with Valve, the company behind Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress 2, Half Life, etc, but in a blog they recently talked about their reason to implement a kill cam in TF2. They did so because they've found that if a player is killed, and doesn't know how, he becomes frustrated and discouraged because he doesn't feel as though he could have overcome the situation. However, adding the kill cam gives the KOed player insight as to how they were overcome, so they can think, "I'll do better next time." The same player mentality follows suit with any game. In this case, It's more frustrating than some would know fighting Peach as Falco, because there's no sense of, "hey I could do this better next time," or, "I'm just not playing well," it's "I can't kill her, it's impossible." There's no sense that I, as Falco, have the ability to overcome Peach. He lacks the kill moves to finish the job, and lacks the comboing potential. I could puke at the level of comboing that my friend executes as Peach, it's rediculous. Falco gets reamed, he falls fast, right back into her comboing. Downair is spammable, and doesn't have much KB, so it can be killed from. All of her aerials have a rediculous wealth of KOing power / priority. Can any of you Peach mains honestly say that Falco is a legitimate problem? Falco also has a really difficult time dealing with turnips off stage, as his recover sucks so bad. I've also found that her slap to grab combo is really difficult to avoid. For example, Falco can jab, to grab too, but it can be spot dodged, and the window seems to be much larger than Peach's jab to grab. I know it's possible to dodge Peach's combo, but her slap comes out so fast, and so does her grab, that it's a joke.

It's so frustrating. In the end, I understand that every character has good and bad matchups... but this is rediculous. After hours of playing I had 60KOs and my friend had 130... Each character should have a chance, even despite poor matchups. I understand that Falco is good against other characters, and that he really has no effective kill move. People reply to this Falco dilemma saying "well, Falco should work for his kills." I'm telling you, it's unbelievably frustrating when you can "WORK" as hard as you can and still not succeed--- especially because the only moves that you can land that do kill aren't landable. Faclo's Bair is really only a kill move off the stage, and I've pointed out this is impossible.

Peach mains, if a Falco does well against you, do you really know the matchup? Also, what is effective against Peach as Falco, because at this point I could throw my controller though a television.

 

[crazycrackers]

LOL!!!! Peach hate has been one of the most entertaining things for me throughout my entire smash history starting from Melee XD

First off, the way you are describing Peach vs Falco is like.....unwinnable. Thats just not true, but I believe Peach has the advantage in the matchup for sure and as soon as she gets past the lasers its pretty easy to handle him. Peach's Uthrow can start insane juggles on Falco because it lets her connect Ftilt, which will combo into itself, and then Uair, which will also combo into itself. Falco can do some combos on her but it doesn't even out. Peach outprioritizes Falco (as she does with a lot of characters), which is an especially big deal because it makes her hard to pressure for him. On the other hand, Peach is one of the best characters for pressure in the game. Peach is good at edgegaurding Falco like she was in Melee, and Falco really can't do much to edgeguard her. Overall, Falco isn't totally helpless as you made him seem, but its Peach's advantage for sure from my experience.

Also, Peach's Dair is not spammable. SDI out from midhigh percents and your rid of that problem. The problem with Dair abuse for Peach is that characters can catch on and will learn to try and hit her out of the air. Falco can't do this really since his fair is so bad and his bair will be easy to see coming.

If you play this matchup AS CAMPY AS POSSIBLE you can give Peach some trouble but she beats you when she gets close. I don't care if its not fun. If you're not willing to do it you're not willing to play the matchup as you should. 65-35 in Peach's advantage. Oh, and after Uair Peach can often Fair falco since hes a fast faller...so you really don't wanna get grabbed because it can potentially lead to Uthrow>Ftilts>Uair(s)>Fair

EDIT: You're also making too big of a deal out of this. You can deal with Peach, its just...unpleasant.

Oh, how nice it is to PLAY Peach instead of having to play against her

 

[GHNeko]

Peach hate rant begin:

Holy wall of BAWWWW :V

From the sounds of that, its 50% hard counter, 30% bawww, 10% ur doing it wrong, and 10% lol'd (from me obviously)

I know how you feel. When I play peach with Marth, I have to play uber gay as possible. SO what you should do is switch up your play style specifically for this match up.

Play uber-gay and see what happens. I know it might not be fun, but there are always ******** matchups that you have to play completely different to overcome.

Try playing as gay as you possibly can and see what happens. Even if falco has no kill moves, you laser gay peach to like 180% and EVERYTHING becomes a kill move.:V

kgo

EDIT: Remember, when you play friendlies, you're also practicing for tourneys. When it comes down to winning, you WILL have to play gay in tournies. Get a feel for it now, put honor aside and piss off your friend from how gay Falco+ can be.

 

[crazycrackers]

Holy wall of BAWWWW :V

From the sounds of that, its 50% hard counter, 30% bawww, 10% ur doing it wrong, and 10% lol'd (from me obviously)

I know how you feel. When I play peach with Marth, I have to play uber gay as possible. SO what you should do is switch up your play style specifically for this match up.

Play uber-gay and see what happens. I know it might not be fun, but there are always ******** matchups that you have to play completely different to overcome.

Try playing as gay as you possibly can and see what happens. Even if falco has no kill moves, you laser gay peach to like 180% and EVERYTHING becomes a kill move.:V

kgo

EDIT: Remember, when you play friendlies, you're also practicing for tourneys. When it comes down to winning, you WILL have to play gay in tournies. Get a feel for it now, put honor aside and piss off your friend from how gay Falco+ can be.

Ya honestly this is so true. Heres a quote from TheRealBobMan:

"Peach is, was, and always will be, the character that lives to make you suffer. Doesn't matter who you play as, doesn't matter what game. Peach exists to torture you and your friends."

Honestly, to play effectively against Peach you will have to play as "gay" as possible. Even Neko doesn't like fighting Peach and he has the ADVANTAGE. Really, you're making more of a big deal out of Peach than she actually is. Just remember that Peach is probably one of the most frustrating characters in smash history so you're going to have to play against her differently from well, any other character.

EDIT: If you do learn to play as "gay" as possible and truely play the matchup how it should be played and your friend still beats you badly, he is just better than you. The end.

Also, Neko where do you find this stuff LOL

 

[GHNeko]

I still ****ing hate that dsmash. :V

Mario vs Peach is just stupid for Mario
Marth vs Peach is nothing but a fair fest until someone hits. If Marth hits, C0mB0z111!. IF peach hits, oh god I hope I'm not at high percents or near the edge of the stage at mid. D:

 

[crazycrackers]

I still ****ing hate that dsmash. :V

Mario vs Peach is just stupid for Mario
Marth vs Peach is nothing but a fair fest until someone hits. If Marth hits, C0mB0z111!. IF peach hits, oh god I hope I'm not at high percents or near the edge of the stage at mid. D:

Mario vs Peach is a disaster for Mario plainly.

Marth vs Peach is a spacing war that will take FOREVER. I think fighting Marth is pretty fun but it can be really annoying too. Marth just keeps trying to space fair/nair over and over and Peach uses turnips like insane and uses spaced fairs as well. And the dsmash? lol I could understand why you hate it...I mean you play Mario and Marth

Marth has the advantage 60-40 though D:

 

[GHNeko]

He does because marth fair > peach anything, except toad. and maye peach bomber. But that's why marth as counter. :V

Mario v Peach is an up mountain battle for Mario. I have to play sooo gay with the fireballs and spam usmash like My life depends on it. It's amazing how usmash can beat so many thing peach has.

Problem is, that its a smash and its not spammable.