Parachute Parade! - GnW Social Discussion

[KirbyIRL]

More for the lulz than the flavor, ya dig? Though it might prove to be an interesting taste...

 

[PentaSalia]

you're all so lame D:<

letting our home be inactive

shame on you all!


errr ummm

any G&W's gone/going to any tourneys lately?D:

 

[Splice]

Thread Activate!

I have been to tourneys recently! I've come to the conclusion that the best players in Australia are a Toon Link, a Wolf, and a Diddy!

I might break my pact with GaW and start using Jigglypuff in tourney too, but not enough for Jigglypuff to count as a character I used, like maybe only in Pools or if i get an easy bracket.
PentaSalia do you go to tournies?

 

[Melancholy]

Splice is the best Game & Watch in Australia. Don't go Jiggs, G&W needs more rep.

Spoiler

And Jiggs is a really bad character.

 

[PentaSalia]

ewww jigglypuff is boring

try practicing with another low tier nao :X

low tiers are fun


and yea i go to daily tourneys around here if i can but schools been keeping me busy xD
my placings are usually average ;/
17th 13th,rarely a 9th if my bracket was easy,which was only once lol

i'll keep at it tho lol

i wanna be ...the very best..like no one ever was...

DUN DUN


lmao
<3

 

[Vinnie]

Kinda late but, I'm 5'8, average height I guess. <.<

 

[A2ZOMG]

try practicing with another low tier nao :X

low tiers are fun

Ike is the most boring character in the game...dude.

Besides just being bottom tier, he only has two decent attacks against anyone who knows how to shield properly. He doesn't have any worthwhile combos except for a wall chaingrab and repeated Jab cancels.

Pick a different low tier. Ike is boring. And he sucks a lot (you know you suck when Link out of all characters has the advantage on you).

Jigglypuff is actually cool because she has some sick combos and mindgames and zoning tactics. Ike on the other hand is basically a one-trick pony, and his title as a n00b character is very well deserved.

 

[kewl]

lolol thats true, ike is hella boring
i prefer zelda as low tier :D

yesterday i went to a tourny, got 5th, could of went higher or maybe even won but i got planked by mk >.<
next one coming up is halloween bash in GA, saturday

 

[PentaSalia]

Ike is the most boring character in the game...dude.

Besides just being bottom tier, he only has two decent attacks against anyone who knows how to shield properly. He doesn't have any worthwhile combos except for a wall chaingrab and repeated Jab cancels.

Pick a different low tier. Ike is boring. And he sucks a lot (you know you suck when Link out of all characters has the advantage on you).

Jigglypuff is actually cool because she has some sick combos and mindgames and zoning tactics. Ike on the other hand is basically a one-trick pony, and his title as a n00b character is very well deserved.

lol ima ignore what you mostly said cuz your post was pretty ignorant ;/

one trick pony?

i think you've let other people tell you what kind of character ike is

you've obviously never looked into him and give out the casual stereotypical answer about him ;/


anyway,u probably responded that way cuz i said jigz was boring.
relax,i was obviously joking lol

 

[Grey Belnades]

I decided to start posting here now since I'm a G&W Mainer. I'm 5'8 for the height thing >.>

 

[PentaSalia]

._____.

you've been playing G&W a while and you hardly come here lol


well...nobody does

 

[Grey Belnades]

A while? I started maining him since May of 08' >_>

That's because I was lurking.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol ima ignore what you mostly said cuz your post was pretty ignorant ;/

one trick pony?

i think you've let other people tell you what kind of character ike is

you've obviously never looked into him and give out the casual stereotypical answer about him ;/

Quite on the contrary, I used to use Ike a long time ago until I discovered for myself how extremely linear he is...

People criticize G&W for being linear, except they forget that Ike is even more linear.

He doesn't have a single safe strategy except for spacing Jabs and F-air. TELL ME IN ALL SERIOUSNESS that this isn't a n00b character.

The only reason he's better than someone like Ganondorf is because his Jab and F-air are somewhat safe attacks, while Ganondorf has zero safe attacks.

 

[PentaSalia]

he's only a noob character because people have made him that way

i agree he is linear in a way that you're pretty much rely on or two attacks of his but like ganon,it still takes a good amount of reading your opponent

not having any safe strategies doesn't make him a noob character,but in fact,means the opposite lol

anyway i don't wanna argue with you =.=;;

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Boooo Ike < Lucas

 

[PentaSalia]

get out of here pink fresh =.=;;

GAMEANDWATCH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Luc@$$

hell,computer G&W can take out a good lucas

lmao

 

[A2ZOMG]

not having any safe strategies doesn't make him a noob character,but in fact,means the opposite lol;

No, he's a n00b character because he's EXTREMELY reliant on two attacks to do anything. And frankly, they work very well against people who don't know how he works. He takes very little investment to play competently (aside from learning to outpatience your opponent in bad matchups).

He doesn't have any good followups, and his edgeguarding even sucks due to how laggy he is. You air dodge any of his moves offstage, and you just killed his edgeguard game right there.

There is extremely little depth to him besides spacing and Jab canceling. He's terrible at doing anything else.

Ganondorf on the other hand actually has to rely on his entire moveset to make up for his faults. His juggling and edgeguarding is VASTLY superior for the simple reason that Ganondorf has followups. Ganondorf is actually allowed to do multiple aerials in one jump. Ike isn't.

Aside from the fact that none of Ganondorf's options are safe, he has more mixups and followups, meaning there is an actual learning curve to make the most of Ganondorf's strengths. Using his options correctly also requires a level of precise timing, where as for Ike, it's only a matter of making sure your opponent is a certain distance away from you 95% of the time.

tl;dr, there is a clear difference between being linear and bad, but Ike is both at the same time.

 

[Grey Belnades]

Boooo Ike < Lucas

What's this loser doing here?

This isn't the I Heart Lucas boards

 

[PentaSalia]

well as i said,i'm not the type to get into arguements lol

so sure o.o

you win

</3


edit: though now i understand why the ike boards don't want you around anymore ._.;


btw,u play wifi's?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

if someone perfect shields a 7, does the apple drop, whereas a normal shield won't cause an apple spawn?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't care that the Ike boards don't want me. If they choose to be ignorant that Ike is one of the most poorly designed characters in the game, I'm perfectly fine with that. They might be better off choosing not to be emo about it anyway. I find Ike to be the biggest disappointment in competitive Brawl. He's a character that I always wanted to be in this game, and the extent to how badly he is designed is frankly...ridiculous.

However I've already accepted that one of my characters, Ganondorf, is in fact the worst character in the game. =/

However, what does matter is that Ike is perfectly justified in low tiers. He is by no means overpowered there, like some people still try to argue.

And rather, part of the reason I'm very adamant about this argument is the misconception that G&W is the most linear character in this game.

 

[UTDZac]

if someone perfect shields a 7, does the apple drop, whereas a normal shield won't cause an apple spawn?

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it goes something like this.

If the 7 attack comes in contact with anything (opponent, shield, stage blocks, waddles) AND G&W is on the ground, a apple appears.

 

[Today]

Well! How is everyone doing then~? How's life? What are you guys up to~? I hope things are going well! -Starts conversation!-

 

[Mr. Escalator]

A2ZOMG is a joker. More than this, he is wrong about Ike, but I do not care to argue this point because G&W is the only character I care enough to argue about :3

 

[Lightning Tiger]

would u care enough about GaW to look over my Thread on tech chasing and help fix it up?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I skimmed over it, which isnt enough to say I have an idea for everything you need fixed, but I dont recall seeing mention of Dash attack. It's usually a better option than most at punishing tech rolls because of it's speed.

Uh, also you may want a section about the lengths of each tech roll and which characters it is easiest to punish (aka characters with bad techs frame wise).

oh wait, you are missing one BIG option that a character can do out of the down throw. Tech. Yep, teching in place is a solid thing to do, and I think it's the safest thing to do as G&W in a ditto. Tech in place and shield or jab.

keep in mind I wasnt exactly thorough, however.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

get out of here pink fresh =.=;;

GAMEANDWATCH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Luc@$$

hell,computer G&W can take out a good lucas

lmao

I **** computer G&W's in my spare time.

I <3 Lucas

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2ZOMG is a joker. More than this, he is wrong about Ike, but I do not care to argue this point because G&W is the only character I care enough to argue about :3

Mr Escalator, Ike is like G&W, except he has none of the advantages in mixups, safe offensive pressure, safe KO moves, followups, recovery, and edgeguarding, and the only things he has that can be considered remotely better are his retreating F-air and his Jab combo.

Just look at his frame data. It's some of the worst frame data in the entire game along with Ganondorf's.

And yet you still somehow think he's not bottom tier garbage. That kind of logic is what I would call a joke.

And again, the reason why I'm hard on Ike is because I'm extremely disappointed by his design, and the flack G&W gets for being called linear and predictable, while people ignore this when it comes to Ike, a much better example of such a character.

I think you're a reasonably smart person, and it shouldn't be too hard for you to understand the common reasons why Zelda, Ike, and Ganondorf are ridiculously terrible characters. They're basically bottom tier for the same reasons in this game. All you need to do to see the parallels are look at their poke options, their approach options, their camp options, ability to force mistakes, and then top it off with some of the worst recoveries in the game.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Well... I said I wasn't going to, but I actually remembered something: I fight for my friends. Ike is a friend fo lyfe of G&W, so I can't let him down despite my laziness.

Where to start? Alrighty, first off I'm going to call you out and say you are being terribly unreasonable in your brief assessment of Ike as a character. You are simply expecting too much, or well better put, judging him too much in comparison to good characters that so talking about him makes him sound god awful when matched up with MK or another highly placed character. He isn't god awful, but I'll focus just briefly on his strengths you are playing down too much first and then maybe work at persuading you that he isn't bottom five or at least shifting your mentality slightly away from overrating his negatives and being able to notice his meaningful strengths. Maybe!

You briefly shrugged off his two really powerful aspects; his fair and his jab, as well as the two noteworthy aspects that come with each of them. Firstly, his jab is an immensely mighty tool in itself. It's widely considered among the best jabs because of it's great frame advantage, range, safety, and ability to augment his mixup game via jab cancels. It's an amazing tool and many characters would kill for this. However, there is an aspect that is oft ignored when talking about his jab, and that would be how amazing bait it is for shielding. I actually chuckle at the notion that shielding wrecks Ike, as the case is the opposite when talking about his close up pressure game. Obviously you can't powershield it on reaction, so lets get this out of the way and mention that his jab is a delicious move to bait defensive reactions from an opponent. At ranges they would shield this move Ike can simply not do it and get a free grab which leads to his surprisingly solid throw game (which I will touch up upon later). Not being able to shield on reaction really plays a key part, as any attempt to shield it must be based solely on PREDICTION which equates to mindgame ability and pressure, which ends up working largely in Ike's favor. The punishment delivered from correct reading on the Ike's part far outweighs any small gain the opponent gets from out prediction, which I want to reinforce is actually in Ike's favor framewise because of it's large advantage on connecting. It really adds up.

Uh, I can get more into Jab and how amazing the move is at baiting shield "camping", but I'll hit up on Fair next. This move is a beast at spacing, and most times you will win any spacing wars (out spaces turtle). I'll preface this section with the statement that powershielding his fair, while possible, is also not easy whatsoever because of aerial movement and correct spacing. Running into it and shielding it at the perfect moment not only requires the reflexes, but also the opportunity, and the later implies you are in a neutral situation. So in most neutral spacing scenarios you finish in a neutral situation; It also makes most approaches unsafe and limits the options of the opponents into predictable moves, which is always a nice thing. However, this move is really noteworthy when pressure is applied and it's greatness is magnified in advantageous situations by a large margin. In scenarios you are threatened (pressured) to airdodge a supposed fair during recovery, you will find that you put yourself in a bad spot by airdoding early into his delayed fair or right into his fsmash. This is similar to how G&W scores Usmashes off of Nair feints, and it leads into the next point.

Ike is much better at punishing than G&W is, I am sad to say, simply because of the reward he gets for it is usually better in terms of damage or it's ability to kill earlier. Baited fairs into Fsmashes are solid and that isn't his only situation of baiting bread and butter moves into stronger strings and hard hitters. His jab is great at complimenting his punishing, like I noted. Common spacing errors and outpredictions on Ike's part really have a huge effect and forces the opponent to play in such a conservative way that Ike can capitalize on throughout the whole match. I think that you focus too little on the fallibility of human players and how much pressure can get to even the most skillful of smashers. This is more extreme when you dont know the matchup, like all characters really, but he functions similarly well even when they do.

Your statment that he has among the worst frame data is sketchy and probably not well developed. He has a lot of good qualities to his moves that arent apparent when looking at it at face value (just like G&W, the good aspects add up). His throws, which I said I would go into more detail and I am, are great examples of this. More specifically, his Bthrow. His bthrow has a ridiculous frame advantage; on Bowser at 0% it is 19 frames, which is a chaingrab of Bthrows into a guarenteed dash attack for a free 60ish%. He has a guarenteed dash attack, as well as some regrabs at low percents, on a TON of the cast, but I am unsure of the complete details because of the lack of documentation on this subject. His other throws all set up positional advantages as well, and Dthrow is especially potent at high percents for baiting.

One last thing I may add is that his recovery is by no means "terrible". It's average, really. His vertical recovery can be positioned and timed well enough so that you cant really do much at all to stop it. His horizontal recovery is poor, but the option is still there in pinch situations.

Ike is undoubtedly not a high tier or upper character, but he at the same time is not bottom 5 among the cast. He is really midish, maybe a BIT lower, but not by much if this is the case. People just really underestimate and he's got similar propaganda for his being excessively bad to what G&W has been suffering of late. It's likely because of underestimation of the pressuring they both use (which is effective) and their severe lack of representation.

also Game & Watch only beats Ike 55-45 to 6-4 I want to add to keep this on topic THOUGH THIS THREAD HAS NO TOPIC LOL.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mr Esc, Ike's Jab and F-air are decent, but they are not amazing moves.

Or rather, Ike's Jab would be amazing on any character not named Ike. But since it belongs to Ike, he can only make average use of it because he is SERIOUSLY lacking speed on options to combo into. You can try to do rather difficult repeated Jab cancels or Jab cancel into grab. It really doesn't do THAT much damage, and you'll never get a kill from that. It's like how in Pokemon, Chimecho has a ridiculously awesome support movepool that Cresselia would kill for, except Chimecho is fundamentally unable to make good use of those amazing moves due to its more fundamental base stats sucking a lot, thus being NU, despite having some of the best moves available.

Seriously, Ike's followup game is balls. His frame data on the moves that Ike WISHES he could use for his best damage and KO potential, they all suck. Well, his B-air has good startup, but bad ending lag. And everything else has bad startup and ending lag. Ike has next to no shield pressure strategies besides hoping that his opponent is dumb enough to jump into his Jab range (and furthermore hoping that they aren't close enough to shieldgrab him or Up-B out of shield). Because his stuff is all too slow, it really makes his Jab cancel game nothing special, and he is veeeeeeery limited in terms of edgeguarding options. You only get to do one aerial offstage, so if your opponent has good DI and never does anything stupid, you will never land a hit on them offstage.

You are overrating Ike's B-throw by far. He does crap damage even with those random combos he has. Almost every character in this game can outdamage Ike with their throw game, and Ike is not unique in his ability to combo out of a throw. Ike's B-throw chaingrab is also very difficult to do and overrated except on PS1. Just because Ike has "lol 19 frame advantage on one throw" means jack in how good overall his frame data is. Considering all his options, and what he can use, it's collectively terrible. I could argue how Ganondorf's frame data isn't that horrible with 10 frame kill moves with massive range, massive frame advantages from Flame Choke and D-air, really fast aerials, and a U-smash/B-air that are safe on block, near-lagless autocancels on aerials, but instead of being biased, I am objectively considering his options as a whole and the situations where they can be viably used without getting constantly camped/outspaced/outprioritized, which is why I can safely say that Ganondorf's frame data is awful. The exact same principle goes for Ike, to a very very very slightly lesser degree as a whole, ONLY because Ike has a Jab and F-air that are fairly hard to punish when decently spaced. Or in many cases, it's actually a lot worse for Ike, because his AERIAL ending lag is vastly worse than Ganondorfs, which makes his juggle, followup, and edgeguarding much more limited.

People don't have to shield Ike's Jab. It doesn't have infinite priority, so you can just outspace it. And if you're close enough to shieldgrab or have a good Up-B out of shield, then Ike has even more to worry about.

Oh yeah, Ike's F-air is alright since it's safe as long as its spaced against an opponent who didn't powershield it. Too bad though, it doesn't do crap in encouraging your opponent to stop camping or playing defensively until they just punish you. Similar to how much Din's Fire sucks.

Basically Ike has these random combos that don't make him very unique, but his followup game that he wishes he had for doing massive damage and killing reliably doesn't exist in any shape or form, and all in all, his moveset synergy is terrible, his reward for somehow getting past camping is really low, and ultimately he can't do anything safe against a defensive opponent. He gets camped and comboed hard too, and similarly to Ganondorf, he does not have a viable way to create an opening against an opponent who just defends.

Riiiiiiight so who is he better than again? Because I am pretty sure that you can name a lot of characters who can either camp better, have an existent approach, or a method of killing that is more reliable. And besides, he loses to Link.

Also, G&W is better at punishing than Ike. He's faster in every sense, and his aerials all do more damage. He also kills basically as early with faster and safer moves.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Mr Esc, Ike's Jab and F-air are decent, but they are not amazing moves.

Or rather, Ike's Jab would be amazing on any character not named Ike. But since it belongs to Ike, he can only make average use of it. You can try to do rather difficult repeated Jab cancels or Jab cancel into grab. It really doesn't do THAT much damage, and you'll never get a kill from that.

...annnnnnd so what if he can't kill with his jab cancel game? It obviously does a great deal of damage on successful mixups and you have to keep in mind Ike doesn't particularly have a hard time killing and he also kills earlier than pretty much most of the cast. These mixup jab cancels REALLY add a lot to Ike, and I think you're just being plain dumb to suggest that Ike's jab isn't amazing. Even on him, he uses it extremely successfully for great damage (in which he wins wars of attrition), and to bait shields which allow him to set up positional advantage which I showed he could abuse solidly with his Fair. Seriously, Ike's jab is AMAZING. It's on a bad character, no doubt, but that doesnt change it being a great move on him.

While it doesn't set up direct kills, Ike can easily get a quick KO through positional advantage pressure. Sorry.

Seriously, Ike's followup game is balls. His frame data on the moves that Ike WISHES he could use for his best damage and KO potential, they all suck. Well, his B-air has good startup, but bad ending lag. And everything else has bad startup and ending lag. Ike has next to no shield pressure strategies besides hoping that his opponent is dumb enough to jump into his Jab range (and furthermore hoping that they aren't close enough to shieldgrab him or Up-B out of shield).

His follow up game is balls? Obviously untrue and I quite clearly showed that he has a great damaging followup through just a single throw. Fthrow has similiar, but obviously less, frame advantage so it sets up major positional advantage great, as well as it leads into itself on walls.

And you are just wrong about his "good" moves being poor framewise. Sure, startup is slow (which is made up by spacing slower moves because of ridiculous range, and using your quick moves as BnB), but his KO moves have low cooldown, long lasting hitboxes, and actually good charge release.

He also has all the shield pressure he needs through fair and jab/grab within range. However, shield pressure is hardly needed besides in close combat situations (where he excels at pressuring shields), as sword archetype characters just use something called spacing and range. Seriously, try to shield grab or upB OoS him as he Ftilts your shield (safe on block) or fairs your shield. You wont do good.

Because his stuff is all too slow, it really makes his Jab cancel game nothing special, and he is veeeeeeery limited in terms of edgeguarding options. You only get to do one aerial offstage, so if your opponent has good DI and never does anything stupid, you will never land a hit on them offstage.

Again, wrong as usual about his jab cancel game so lets skip that. His edgeguarding options are actually threatening, I don't know what you are talking about at all. First off, I pose these questions: Why would you be wanting to be offstage as Ike in most situations, and why would one even attempt throwing out more than one Dair (only one properly executed dair is needed)? He isn't G&W, but he doesn't need to be able to chase offstage. Edgeguarding game =/= offstage game, luckily, and Ike is ample at it by pressuring extended stay on ledges with his threatening dtilt, and being able to punish ledge get up options with use of his fair and much more of his moveset. If you want to take back what you said and instead say "His offstage game is really limited" then I would agree with you. I would also ask "Who the **** cares?" but that is besides the point.

You are overrating Ike's B-throw by far. He does crap damage even with those random combos he has. Almost every character in this game can outdamage Ike with their throw game, and Ike is not unique in his ability to combo out of a throw. Ike's B-throw chaingrab is also very difficult to do and overrated except on PS1.

False. I mean, I really can't say much besides false because it's such an outrageous claim that I don't know where to begin to address it. I think a better course of action would be to ask you to list every character who can do more than 60% to Bowser guaranteed from a single grab. Obviously Ice Climbers, D3, Wario, and maybe a few others like Pika and Falco, but that is FAR from "almost every character in the game". You seem to have been missing the point, really. Its not that his throw is anything especially special, it's that he has moves that bait defensive play in the form of shielding and he has a solid method of taking advantage of this through the form of a high rewarding grab game.

Also, he can do Bthrow stuff no matter the stage. If you mean Bthrow wall combo, then yeah sure its only PS1 on the top of my head, but that isnt something I mentioned so I don't know why you brought it up at all. I did, however, just mention his fair on a wall lock but that isnt what you meant, is it? Anyway, he can Bthrow -> Bthrow I think a lot of the cast at 0% or something, but the Bthrow -> DA (hits more of the cast) ends earlier than regrabbing as their percent climbs. This can be done on any starter stage, of course.

J

ust because Ike has "lol 19 frame advantage on one throw" means jack in how good overall his frame data is. ... but instead of being biased, I am objectively considering his options as a whole and the situations where they can be viably used without getting constantly camped/outspaced/outprioritized, which is why I can safely say that Ganondorf's frame data is awful. The exact same principle goes for Ike, to a very very very slightly lesser degree as a whole, ONLY because Ike has a Jab and F-air that are fairly hard to punish when decently spaced. Or in many cases, it's actually a lot worse for Ike, because his AERIAL ending lag is vastly worse than Ganondorfs, which makes his juggle, followup, and edgeguarding much more limited.

I'm tempted to just ignore this large section overly stressing a point that is not only something I didn't make (that the advantage was his only frame positive but that it made it enough to say his frame data was good) but is something that DOESNT MATTER. In fact, I omitted one part because it was just plain dumb (the ganon part).

First off, I want to say that Ike has quick BnB moves, unlike Ganon. He also has range, which makes up for a large percent of startup time AND cool down with proper spacing, which Ganon can't boast. Not only this, Ike himself has good autocancelled aerials, good cooldown on kill moves, good charge release on smashes, long lasting hitboxes on numerous moves, and probably moves that are overall more safe on block than Ganon has. He clearly has better frame data than Ganon by a large margin, and I don't feel the need to address the sweeping claim that he has the second worst frame data mainly because it's such a huge thing, and frankly doesnt matter.

This doesn't matter because nobody cares about some vague concept such as a character's "overall frame data" when talking about any character. Why would even compare this "overall frame data" **** when differences in so many factors such as range, damage (which effects shield stun, etc etc ETC exist? The point of the matter is, Ike has quick moves. He uses these quick moves. Up close he uses a quick jab, and he can mix it up with a quick jab. At a range he has a quick fair, and he can mix this up with any other ranged move like Ftilt or Fsmash when they start reacting to the quick move. When they react to the quick move, they are open to slower moves, and more than this, speed on moves matter less the farther they hit.

Anyway, I don't know how you made "Ike has a good bthrow which augments his jab game" into "IKES FRAME DATA SUCKS". You really, REALLY overrate certain aspects of frame data, which makes me wonder why you see the value in G&W's moves despite them being "average" at face value. Maybe you are just parroting me when I say they are good frame wise? Who knows.

People don't have to shield Ike's Jab. It doesn't have infinite priority, so you can just outspace it. And if you're close enough to shieldgrab or have a good Up-B out of shield, then Ike has even more to worry about.

No such thing as priority. Case closed.
It has superior range and speed in all accounts to many moves. outspacing his jab is actually more like he isnt spacing it correctly, as he has the upperhand framewise when throwing out the move in most accounts. Apparently people don't have to shield his jab, but they will always do it when close enough to shield grab? Wow, how predictable. Ike really has a lot less to worry about then you are mongering about; consider that any abuse you take from his jab game (he has the upperhand in most TYPICAL scenarios where he would jab) is overall more detrimental than any damage you give him through a misreading. He kills you much earlier than you kill him, and only Ganon has roughly the same kill potential but has way worse time using it.

Oh yeah, Ike's F-air is alright since it's safe as long as its spaced against an opponent who didn't powershield it. Too bad though, it doesn't do crap in encouraging your opponent to stop camping or playing defensively until they just punish you. Similar to how much Din's Fire sucks.

ahahahah way to compare two radically different moves. Din's Fire sucks even when Zelda is in an advantageous position. Fair is good when in neutral positions and is extremely good in advantageous situations. No **** it doesn't help when Ike is down a stock and being camped; I never claimed it was excessively good when he is in a disadvantageous situation. Even when he is in a bad situation, Fair is still infinitely more useful than Din's fire in a similarly bad situation. Again, way to draw ridiculous comparisons.

Basically Ike has these random combos that don't make him very unique, but his followup game that he wishes he had for doing massive damage and killing reliably doesn't exist in any shape or form, and all in all, his moveset synergy is terrible, his reward for somehow getting past camping is really low, and ultimately he can't do anything safe against a defensive opponent. He gets camped and comboed hard too, and similarly to Ganondorf, he does not have a viable way to create an opening against an opponent who just defends.

Pretty much, you are the worst at summing up points ever.
I have crossed out points that simply do not matter and have no place in a summary even as bad as that one. Additionally, I have marked the things wrong red.

1: His grab follow up game is highly damaging. Consider that it takes less damage for you to get in his killing range than pretty much any character. Without this perspective, it's easy to overlook the good damage his throw combos do. More than this, his throws have SEVERE positional advantage on setting up killing moves, especially Dthrow -> Uair, Bair, and Usmash. Both side throws can set up early spike KO's as well where he has the frame advantage to position himself more optimally than you can counteract (isnt guaranteed but it is by no means poor). First point of yours is wrong.

2. This is clearly the most wrong of all. Man, it's like you either didn't read my points or didn't comprehend them as well as I expected you to. I will do a recap, albeit a brief one: Jab has amazing synergy with his grab game, which leads into positional advantageous throws and guaranteed damaging strings. His fair has synergy with Fsmash/Ftilt/Dtilt/you name it in edgeguarding situations. Dthrow/Uthrow sets up all aerials, aside for Dair, especially his Uair as well as pressuring Usmash and Utilt for quick KOs. Fthrow/Bthrow have large frame advantages leading into each other at low percents against walls and setting easy edgeguarding scenarios by sending the foe offstage, and this sets up Dair greatly. In general, he has enough BnB moves to pressure occasional strong slow moves. His synergy is really solid. Second point of yours is wrong.

3. His reward for getting inside isn't low at all. I wouldn't say it's as ridiculous as IC's or Ganon or even several other guys, but it's clearly rewarding once he forces a position. In fact, it's probably higher up among characters (others force characters out and have a bad C+C game). Your point here is false.

4. I'll be brief on this last one because I've been up for ages and it's practically 8am now. Ike has no problems against defensive play NOT NAMED PROJECTILES. As a sword archetype he can outspace and outrange so that he can attack without immediate threat to himself. He also has his own defensive options to quickly get in and get the advantage. Clearly not a well defined point.

Riiiiiiight so who is he better than again? Because I am pretty sure that you can name a lot of characters who can either camp better, have an existent approach, or a method of killing that is more reliable. And besides, he loses to Link.

This time I have crossed out all the irrelevant points. They really don't mean anything at all by themselves so why include them as standalones?

Ike is better than:

Ness, Bowser, Lucas, Mario, Yoshi, Samus, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, and Ganondorf.

he's close with Ness/Bowser though.

Also, G&W is better at punishing than Ike. He's faster in every sense, and his aerials all do more damage. He also kills basically as early with faster and safer moves.

Also, wrong. He's slightly faster, but with less forced scenarios to set up his punishments. His aerials also have less knockback, and three of them are SDIable.

and

Bull****. Ike kills earlier than G&W easily. Even if you include Nine hammer and Oil Panic, Ike has overall more kill potential. Also, if you want to include those gimmick moves I will include tipper eruption and counter at it's strongest. He doesn't even kill as early as Ike, let alone sooner lol.

Safer is true though, but it's not like Ike is extremely unsafe once his moves come out. With long lasting hitboxes, that are very damaging and have good shieldstun and shield knockback, and good cooldown, it's not like they are that punishable past interrupting the startup or if they just miss.

and thus
we have argued about Ike in a G&W social thread.
lol, you asked for it >:O

 

[PentaSalia]

A2ZOMG is a joker. More than this, he is wrong about Ike, but I do not care to argue this point because G&W is the only character I care enough to argue about :3

<3
;P
uawesome

but ugh you two =.=

no point in arguing

we're all on the same side ...kinda =/

would u care enough about GaW to look over my Thread on tech chasing and help fix it up?

make it pretty D:

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mr Escalator, all of your arguments hinge on someone who doesn't play against Ike correctly.

Ike's kill moves all have horrible ending lag and horrible startup (besides his B-air, which only has horrible ending lag). I don't know how you can prove this otherwise. Only Ike's U-smash is a barely viable move, and it's still really punishable with something like 30 frames of ending lag. You can drop shield and punish with a dash most of the time against Ike's tilts and Smashes. Horrible.

Okay, so Ike can do 13% or so from B-throw -> DA. And he gets a chaingrab on a low tier. That is frankly not impressive at all when you have many, many faster characters who are able to do over 20% from a throw combo that only requires predicting the attack or jump, and if they airdodge, it's usually a free regrab. Specifically, I'm referring to simple stuff like Peach, Mario, and Luigi's D-throw. Then ROB can do over 30% with a D-throw -> U-air. Marth actually has more moves (aerials and sometimes F-smash) he can follow up with that do more damage than what Ike can do from a throw, so his throw damage output is also better than Ike's in several situations. Get real. Ike's throw damage output is not impressive at all, and it would have to be ridiculous if Ike were to overcome his other flaws.

Ike's edgeguard options are easy to avoid. He can't go far offstage, and his moves all are too slow. As long as you DI, you should never take a hit from him offstage. It's as simple as that. What can Ike do if his opponent airdodges on reaction? Absolutely nothing. Even Ganondorf has an answer to this. If someone airdodges Ganondorf's B-air or U-air, they still will get hit since he can follow up with one more attack to punish them. Ike has no respectable followups of the sort to stop people from avoiding his edgeguarding. Ike's D-tilt is not a viable move for edgeguarding either, and the best Ike can hope for is to punish a predicted ledge getup with F-air, which is still iffy at best since this never properly addresses how to deal with a patient opponent who doesn't just randomly jump into charged Smashes near the ledge.

Also, you keep stressing positional advantages, and seriously...Ike is bad at these. Ike has one of the worst juggling strategies in the game. In order to be good at juggling, you have to be able to followup if you miss. Ike can never do this. So what if Ike's fresh Jab can do a little over 20ish damage if he's good at canceling it? Other characters have less predictable options that can do that much damage or more. He's bad at edgeguarding.

Furthermore, more fundamentally, Ike CANNOT safely approach. Ever. His mobility, startup, and ending lag is much too terrible for that. If you can't camp, and you can't approach, you have zero legitimate pressure options. You can only try to wall, and Ike walling eventually gets destroyed by people who learn to powershield his F-air. This is really why Ike sucks, aside from the fact that he has no real way of forcing mistakes against someone who just waits.

Furthermore, you reeeeealy overestimate Ike's KO power. His KO power is only slightly above average if you discount F-smash and Eruption, which are unviable attacks. His U-smash is semi-viable at best, and seems to be sweetspot situational, and it's still weaker than G&W's. G&W's F-air is a more damaging move than any of Ike's aerials, that kills about as early, if not earlier in fact. G&W's D-smash KOs about 5% higher than his Up-smash when sweetspotted, and the sourspot sets up easy gimps. Ike can however get KOs earlier with Up-air, which is again a really iffy move at best due to how bad Ike's mobility/ending lag is. G&W's D-air also kills at similar percents to Ike's when fresh, but has a much better advantage on shield.

As for characters:

Firstoff, Bowser is definitely better than Ike. Plain and simple, he outclasses him at everything not named recovery. Bowser has actual mixups and something that resembles an approach with his ForwardB (which has zero landing lag moreover). His out of shield game is also better, and he has a grab release chaingrab. In the actual matchup, Bowser can camp with Firebreath, and F-tilt/Up-B out of shield when Ike does anything. Bowser is MUCH better also at stopping people from getting up from the ledge, as he has nearly as massive, but much faster moves with which to do so. He also punishes spotdodges much much harder than Ike, and generally has a lot of kill moves that can come out before reaction time, while Ike has none except for a relatively short-ranged and short duration B-air.

Ness...honestly Ness sucks a lot. He has horrible range and lacks solid mixup options due to his large commitment on moves, and he gets grab release comboed a lot. Ness however can sorta camp. And unlike Ike, he has a good grab and a reliable KO method.

Similarly, Lucas sucks a lot. Although...Lucas does have a N-air that is pretty safe on block when SH autocanceled. And his PK Thunder is a gay edgeguard. D-air -> D-tilt -> F-smash is cool on people who don't tech or DI or space well.

Samus is better than Ike. I've played a good Samus enough times to know this. Her camping is INSANELY hard to work around if she does it right. Yeah, she can't kill you, but she's really good at edgeguarding, and she's insanely hard to hit with a kill move if she does morph ball bomb shield pressure mixups, not to mention Up-B out of shield. She also never gets gimped either. As shown in BBrawl she is a top threat when just her KO power is buffed. This character is mad underrated in vBrawl anyway, and actually can win against Snake when played at her top level. Ike really can't do anything against a good Samus.

Mario is also better than Ike. He actually has a lot of good matchups against upper tiers like Falco, Pikachu, Wolf, Sheik, and Diddy Kong, (heck, the ICs are a winnable matchup for Mario) and he does significantly better in low tiers against characters like Bowser, Pokemon Trainer, and Samus. Mario also has a GOOD shield pressure game that is mad underestimated, not to mention solid out of shield options, and a beast Jab sequence that combos into his D-smash when done correctly, not to mention gets wall locks up to 70%. At any rate, he also gets to camp and gimp Ike, and punish anything Ike whiffs with his massively underestimated F-smash (has more range than Ike's F-smash for that matter).

Okay, Jigglypuff is definitely MUCH better than Ike. Firstoff, she can air camp (and edgecamp). That alone warrants this. If she wants to stall the timer, there is very little you can do about it. Jigglypuff has an excellent combo and zoning game too, and with that amazing recovery, she has some pretty amazing edgeguarding. Pound is also gay for multiple reasons, doing massive shield damage, being hard to challenge directly, and destroying spotdodges. Rollout is a surprisingly stupid attack, as it's safe on block, and kills stupidly early. Jigglypuff even has a reliable KO method. Drillrest. Kills people at like 80% or something. This character is BY NO MEANS low tier. Just outclassed by Wario, and to a lesser extent Kirby.

And Yoshi...Yoshi is pretty godawful in general. Bad KO moves, a rather gimmicky recovery, and non-existent out of shield options meaning that he can get grabbed during block strings. However he's definitely better than Ike. Yoshi actually gets to camp, and he can wall pretty effectively this way combined with pivot grabs. You can't just freely attempt to powershield Yoshi in an attempt to punish him like you can against Ike's F-air. Yoshi has a lot of mobility, so his opportunities to camp are fairly existent, and he's much better off spacing on shields with multihits like his B-air. He has a grab release chaingrab on several characters, more than Ike can hope for.

Ike however is better than Captain Falcon, Link, and Ganondorf, who basically fail even harder in terms of safe options or reward. Although Link beats Ike. Zelda is the one other character who is also bottom tier, as similarly, she cannot approach or force mistakes.

it's not like Ike is extremely unsafe once his moves come out. With long lasting hitboxes, that are very damaging and have good shieldstun and shield knockback, and good cooldown, it's not like they are that punishable past interrupting the startup or if they just miss.

This is fundamentally the ONE point you need to have corrected.

Ike is in fact EXTREMELY unsafe. To emphasize how Ike cannot approach, I can choose Mario or Link, and if Ike does anything on my shield to approach, and I mean ANYTHING, he will get Up-smashed/shieldgrabbed. Similarly, Rob and DDD massively **** Ike with their ability to shieldgrab 90% of what he does easily.

His cooldown is absolutely horrible except on F-air and Jab. N-air doesn't have enough range to be safe on block. B-air is MAD unsafe on block, not to mention D-air and U-air. Ike's Smashes all have around the 30ish frames or greater amount of ending lag, which is MAD punishable no matter how much range you have, since that is enough time to just run up and dashgrab. His tilts are basically clones of his Smashes with 8 or so frames less startup, and less shield pushback and range.

I encourage you to look at Ike's frame data again sometime. Keep in mind, average ending lag (and shield advantage) is from 20-25 frames for most attacks, which is still pretty punishable on block just because shieldstun is low in this game. Low ending lag is around 10-15 frames. Extremely laggy is 30 and above.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

Oh wow, it's even worse than I thought. A lot of Ike's stuff has over FORTY FRAMES OF ENDING LAG. Wow, hax. And don't try to give me BS that "o but he haz more range than this dude" when anyone can just run up and grab him on reaction out of shield. Or in Mario or Sonic's case, you can just reverse F-smash anything Ike whiffs, or even punish him out of shield with those moves.

 

[NatP]

Yeah, I don't exactly get why you guys are talking about that in here. We have pm's for a reason. :/

Anyway, how is everyone doing? Reppin' that g&w, eh? I gotta see if I can use G&W more. In the last tournament, it was filled with Diddys and snakes and even a marth. I can't use g&w vs any of this characters. xD

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

every other person in MI plays a **** snake. i hate it.

 

[Kofu]

Use R.O.B.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

how do i make it pretty?

 

[Zeallyx]

*enters*

There are alot of characters on this page.

*leaves*

 

[Today]

Yeah, I don't exactly get why you guys are talking about that in here. We have pm's for a reason. :/

Anyway, how is everyone doing? Reppin' that g&w, eh? I gotta see if I can use G&W more. In the last tournament, it was filled with DK's and snakes and even a marth. I can't use g&w vs any of this characters. xD

Doh! I'm doing well, thank you!! Haha! How are you doing? And youch! I hope you manage to get practice against those characters!! I just came back from a tournament! It was really fun!
It's too bad no one is exactly socializing in the social thread, though..

 

[NatP]

The G&W boards are a bit dead to be honest. :\ We need to talk more around here! We must not let the g&w boards be like so many other boards out there that are practically dead.

And I use DK for those matchups. They're mostly 50 50, but I like the matchups and I like playing DK so it's all good. xD