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Parachute Parade! - GnW Social Discussion

Valdens

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
889
Location
San Antonio, TX
lol

Havok shut me down worse than I ever have been before

I think the way he plays makes this matchup nigh unwinnable, haha
 

Mr. Escalator

G&W Guru
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
2,103
Location
Hudson, NH
NNID
MrEscalator
You guys should realize something. As much as Tyrant is a great MK and Havok is one, there are so many different styles G&W can be played as. Just because a tactic shut down UTD Zac, it means little because he is just one G&W and he doesn't represent G&W as a whole. While Valdens apparently also got beat by it, I can't say I know how close either of these sets were, and I'm actually not too well versed in how Valdens plays in general (from what I've seen, nothing too impressive though he is undoubtedly a solid G&W). I'll take a look at the videos but I don't expect to be swayed.

You guys have to remember there are so many factors in how both players approached this matchup, how they were actually performing at this point in the tournament, and their prior experience fighting other MKs or other G&Ws. Things could be as simple as Zac going in the match expecting to fight a certain MK playstyle, while being worn out mentally from a day of challenging opponents, and be caught offguard by such a simple tactic that he got brickwalled. Everybody chokes.

MK beats G&W for a reason, also, so unless UTD Zac AND Valdens both got destroyed as much as Tyrant did in his set versus UTD Zac, these particular sets mean little in how MK should be played versus us. It's a little cute how a single tournament run seems to make this seem like a viable strategy to crutch onto, but in the long run it's not as effective as it first seems. I don't doubt that UTD Zac can beat this "brickwall". It's not like it's a new strategy, either.

Susa is a joker.
 

**Havok**

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
1,707
Location
SooooCaaaaal
I mean its true, it's just my play style but i got HebrewHammer, Valdens AND Zac.

All from different regions, no where near SoCal.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
You guys should realize something. As much as Tyrant is a great MK and Havok is one, there are so many different styles G&W can be played as. Just because a tactic shut down UTD Zac, it means little because he is just one G&W and he doesn't represent G&W as a whole. While Valdens apparently also got beat by it, I can't say I know how close either of these sets were, and I'm actually not too well versed in how Valdens plays in general (from what I've seen, nothing too impressive though he is undoubtedly a solid G&W). I'll take a look at the videos but I don't expect to be swayed.

You guys have to remember there are so many factors in how both players approached this matchup, how they were actually performing at this point in the tournament, and their prior experience fighting other MKs or other G&Ws. Things could be as simple as Zac going in the match expecting to fight a certain MK playstyle, while being worn out mentally from a day of challenging opponents, and be caught offguard by such a simple tactic that he got brickwalled. Everybody chokes.

MK beats G&W for a reason, also, so unless UTD Zac AND Valdens both got destroyed as much as Tyrant did in his set versus UTD Zac, these particular sets mean little in how MK should be played versus us. It's a little cute how a single tournament run seems to make this seem like a viable strategy to crutch onto, but in the long run it's not as effective as it first seems. I don't doubt that UTD Zac can beat this "brickwall". It's not like it's a new strategy, either.

Susa is a joker.

There are different playstyles, there are still better playstyles.
There are moves, they are still the same moves. No matter how the **** you use bair, it's still bair.

Just say'n
 

Mr. Escalator

G&W Guru
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
2,103
Location
Hudson, NH
NNID
MrEscalator
Wow, how sage-like, Susa. Did you also know there are stages, and then there are OTHER stages?? I know, I couldn't believe that either.

Seriously, what the **** does your last post have to do with anything?
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Playstyles matter very, very little if you are restricted within your moveset.

No matter how you use a move, if it is punishable. You should be getting punished for it.

Le gasp.
Consider the following.

A Meta Knight uses Forward Smash and somehow (we don't care how) progresses far enough in the execution of the move for the hitboxes to come out. Meta Knight is in range to hit the opponent or his shield. Now consider two different ways he could have been using Forward Smash.

Way 1: Meta Knight was facing toward his opponent.
Way 2: Meta Knight was facing away from his opponent.

By the suggestion of your post, the punish-ability of these two should be equal. Anyone with common sense and a decent knowledge of Meta Knight will tell you that Way 1 is mostly unpunishable (powershield only for punishing) while Way 2 is punishable in general.

Brawl as a fighter has something called "depth". This means many things; one of them is that the optimal way to play is non-obvious. If it were obvious, several players would employ it, and results from play among these players would be essentially random (since they would be playing the same). We know, therefore, that everyone is employing some sub-optimal strategy, and furthermore we can observe easily that everyone employs a different sub-optimal strategy. A player's particular sub-optimal strategy is what we might call a "playstyle". Obviously, in tournament play, you hope your particular sub-optimal strategy is less sub-optimal than everyone else's (if it is, you will probably win the tournament). With the Meta Knight example, we might consider two players who use Forward Smash in those different ways. Player A uses Way 1 while Player B uses Way 2. When Player A uses Forward Smash, it is not punishable. When Player B uses Forward Smash, it is punishable. We might even consider the opponent not being optimal at punishment; maybe some opponents will fail to punish Player B.

Of course, particularly sub-optimal elements of your overall playstyle, such as Way 2 in the example, are likely to be rooted out as you improve. However, your playstyle will ALWAYS be sub-optimal. You may always be mediocre at spacing move X (not necessarily horrible, just mediocre), but it's okay since you're really smart about when to use risky but very rewarding move Y, better than most players. In any case, of the game elements you have at your disposal at any given time, you are likely to favor which ones you utilize more heavily based on your personal strengths. If you are really good at spacing move Z, you will use move Z more than some mythical optimal strategy probably would... and be rewarded for it. If you just really can't get move X down to the same level of usefulness as other people who find themselves in the same situations, you probably won't use move X as much as other players. You are also going to have subtly incorrect valuations anyway. Maybe you believe move Z to be slightly better than it really is while you believe move X to be slightly worse than it really is. It all adds up, and it is why playstyle has a huge impact on the progression of matches in every way, including the safety of moves. Of course, you could stick to your original and completely absurd suggestion that moves have some arbitrary "safe" versus "not safe" property, presumably hardcoded via a flag the hackers somehow missed, and that safety is definitely not dictated by timing and spacing in a variety of subtle ways and further influenced by matchup and stage and the allocation of various resources such as lingering objects like Snake's grenades or staleness or shield health such that even if one high level player gets punished in a case or two for a move it may not be generally punishable. It is definitely not highly likely to be situationally punishable, that is punishable only depending on context.

I don't know what you're trying to get at, but you are defying the rawest of basics of fighting games in a truly absurd way. I really hope you are just poorly expressing what you mean.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
Okay, now you are extremely nitpicky at my wording, and wrote a wall of text that I honestly didn't bother reading.

Here is a quick example:

Player 1 uses Move X in Situation A
Player 2 uses that same Move X in Situation B

Given the situations are not in a manner that makes Move X guarenteed, Move X is still move X. While the players can be said to have different playstyles, they still use the same moveset. Making that moveset just as punishable, no matter what style you use.

Did that help?
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Okay, now you are extremely nitpicky at my wording, and wrote a wall of text that I honestly didn't bother reading.

Here is a quick example:

Player 1 uses Move X in Situation A
Player 2 uses that same Move X in Situation B

Given the situations are not in a manner that makes Move X guarenteed, Move X is still move X. While the players can be said to have different playstyles, they still use the same moveset. Making that moveset just as punishable, no matter what style you use.

Did that help?
What you're saying is still nonsense; maybe if you actually read replies you would understand a little more why it's nonsense. Obviously move X is move X is move X and it doesn't have different properties in different situations (with some exceptions, such as aerial vs grounded specials for many characters). That doesn't change the almost literally infinite number of subtly different situations that exist that can radically alter the practicality of move X, including whether it's punishable or not. It could be so little as standing a single unit of distance further or closer.

You are likely to have not read that either; I think we're done here since you apparently can't be bothered to read even as you express a lack of understanding of some really basic fighting game principles.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
All this arguing hasn't made Game and Watch fair any better against MKs ftilt.
Or any worse. G&W can deal with it fine; if you actually watch the matches in question (they're on youtube), it's not even MK spamming ftilt at all. I don't know where people are getting it.
 

UTDZac

▲▲▲▲▲
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
6,646
Location
Judgment Count: 856
Yet another reason to never jump or UpB when G&W is below you on Rainbow Cruise.

In other randon Rainbow Cruise news:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQEF_6MjiYU

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PentaSalia

Smash Master
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
4,506
Location
New York
NNID
PentaSalad
ahh i see what happened
wow>.>


nice match,
every was just dying at the beginning lol
lawl at the end >_>
 

ericftw

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
17
I'm loooking for a Game And Watch ditto.
I want to see how good mine really is.
Contact me on Aim or Skype -
Aim = eric can type
Skype = knightmaster8

Looking forward to all challenges !
 

KirbyIRL

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
254
Location
Conway, AR
Wifi anything don't really indicate much at all. And that video made me ten minutes late to one of my midterm's, Zac. worth it

Definitely not posting a nonsense comment to avoid having a postcount of 42.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
I just killed DSF's Snake in the funniest way ever.

He planted a landmine on the platform in SV, so he was jumping around, and I tripped the mine with the Bucket, and he was in range of the explosion and got killed.

Oh yeah, and I think I did actually win that match lmao.
 

Cold Fusion

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
836
Does it matter if I necro this thead?
 

PentaSalia

Smash Master
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
4,506
Location
New York
NNID
PentaSalad
the G&W boards are so serious

we should fool around sometime and talk about waffles

or why all G&W mainers are so short


LOL


hi._____.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
****, did you like see a photo of me or something? Yeah, I'm a REALLY small guy.

I think I'm like 5 foot 7 inches or something, I forget. And I weigh like 110 pounds. I'm super lightweight in real life lmao.
 

PentaSalia

Smash Master
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
4,506
Location
New York
NNID
PentaSalad
****, did you like see a photo of me or something? Yeah, I'm a REALLY small guy.

I think I'm like 5 foot 7 inches or something, I forget. And I weigh like 110 pounds. I'm super lightweight in real life lmao.
actually i did see it on aib once,while randomly roaming
your as short as i am lol
;_:
that's why i wear so many hoodies

what

im not short :(
stop denying yourself and accept it:mad:
 

kewl

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
533
Location
Panama
NNID
Kewlz3
LOL i'm actually short

short people ftw yay
& as for waffles

waffles are yummy
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
****, did you like see a photo of me or something? Yeah, I'm a REALLY small guy.

I think I'm like 5 foot 7 inches or something, I forget. And I weigh like 110 pounds. I'm super lightweight in real life lmao.
Heheh, I'm like 5 foot 10 inches last time I checked (still growing :o), and very slender, like 120-125. I'm cursed with a high metabolism :p.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
!!!

Wtf so many G&W mains are short!!! Wooooooow I did not even think of that until now.

You can add UTD Zac to that list. If I was a G&W main I would break the short list though.
 

PentaSalia

Smash Master
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
4,506
Location
New York
NNID
PentaSalad
!!!

Wtf so many G&W mains are short!!! Wooooooow I did not even think of that until now.

You can add UTD Zac to that list. If I was a G&W main I would break the short list though.
it's been known for a while D:
just hardly brought up
odd coinsidence

UTDZAC=short? x_x
he looks tall
lmao

6 foot, about 180.

NoJ isn't short either. I'm pretty sure he's at least my height.
eww tall people
go switch to snake you :mad:
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
UTD Zac one of the shorter smash players out there. IDK how tall he is exactly, but yes he is short.
 

Cold Fusion

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ JIGGLYPUFF OR RIOT ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
836
I am surprised no one on the AiB ladder has commented on my B-air spam counter-pick.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Dude whenever I play on the AIB ladder, people always complain about my G&W lol. I wish people wouldn't.

Let's switch roles. :D
 
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