This is an extremely bold statement, and just really untrue. G&W's upB's wind is on 3/invincible on 5/hits on 9, Dtilt/Grab/Dash attack all hit on frame 6, Jab hits on 4, etc etc. His close combat speed is more than fine. Whether his smashes are all usable enough to throw out in c+c has no bearing on his close up game at all, and even then his smashes aren't slow at all.
well a ton of characters have fast moves. but d-tilt (unless you're edgeguarding a wolf) isn't gunna kill for a looong while. Jab can be dangerous if you aren't careful, as it could easily lead into a grab. DA can be sheild grabbed pretty easily as well. I have been using grab more, which seems to be working, so there's that.
so you proceed to list a bunch of quick smashes (and a tilt? What the ****?) as "evidence" that G&W's smashes are slow. Unfortunately for you, I can do similar things and throw out how Ganon's, Ike's, Snake's, Bowser's, Lucas' (not fsmash), and Link's smashes are all slower by a large margin. I won't do this because it's as pointless as your sample of "evidence". Listing the quickest smashes in the game doesn't show that G&W's smashes are slow at all, and it's a stretch to say something to that affect. G&W's startup on his smashes is average. That's all they are. They aren't slow in startup, and they are quick in cooldown.
what i listed were all moves that could easily kill you, moves you can't do much about up close. All higher tier characters as well (except wolf, but i'll never be convinced that the matchup is anymore then 55:45 G&W.)
Not to mention G&W's smashes are better than pretty much all those smashes you listed. You also fail to note that MK's and Diddy's dsmash, while they hit really quick framewise on one side, they are double side hitting smashes and have to hit the other side. This skews your sample as those smashes arent always in the ideal situation (facing the opponent).
This is true, but we're talking about having to hit and not "missing smashes."
Even "smart" opponents will get hit by G&W's when conditioned or pressured like correctly. Anyway, point is, our smashes AREN'T slow in terms of startup. They are average. The difference is pretty distinct.
Average doesn't cut it in a "best character." This is the point I'm trying to make.
Namedropping, eh? It would be more effective if the person you namedropped didn't also claim that MK vs G&W is an unwinnable matchup if the Meta Knight is good. Also saying thins like G&W will drop to low tier hurts credibility.
and IMO, he's right. Although he likes to **** talk a lot about how bad G&W is (a bad habit I have as well) he knows G&W won't drop that low.
I've shown that G&W is fast in both terms of mobility and in terms of C+C options by showing well documented research and frame data in the thread I put up the other night. If NoJ thinks G&W is still slow he should post in that thread refuting straight facts. If he still thinks G&W is slow, that's really just his opinion which he is entitled to.
NoJ won't post, he gets a warning everytime he does. (looking at you hylian)
nah jk. Its funny as hell. But yeah, he just doesn't post opinions anymore.
Projectiles don't wreck our approach at all. The only examples that have some shred of truth in them are energy based projectiles from people like Falco, who don't even have a great way to address you once you get in G&W's best zone of play. If you are getting fsmashed through Marth's fsmash, I'm fairly certain you are doing something quite wrong, but I haven't spent the most time in looking at the Marth v G&W matchup and which moves trade. I don't think he should be doing this when properly spaced, however.
How don't they? They ruin spacing, something I'm being told I need to do so much more. Doesn't Falco have some sort of laser --> dacus?
And no, the Marth this is pretty much a guarantee, especially if you play "safe." Theres that certain "sweetspot zone" that G&W just does NOT want to be in. I know for a fact it hits thru bair and nair, I've tested it. Whether or not a hit of the bair (i'm fairly certain nair is out of reach) hits marth, I can't remember. But that would only serve to hurt us, as only one hit would hit Marth, canceling the lag on his f-smash.
It can get really bad. A sweetspot f-smash wrecks bucketbraking. TONS of hitstun.
Spacing Bair still works. If they are backing up, then it's successful. It's pretty simple. Our approach game is and always has been fine. Maybe if all you play on is FD then things may be different.
Its not fine. As I've said before, some characters (Marth, Wario) will purposely take the hit. Some will just continue to sheild it, and move closer to you.
Here's what I mean:
Bair: 6 hits, 18% damage.
If G&W flies at the opponent using back air, at least one or two hits will have already been used getting to that point. You don't want to hit with the last hit, you'll get grabbed. So you have 3-4 hits to DI inward and Outward. THAT won't provide shield pressure. So while you continue to do that, the opponent will continue to shield, and move towards you. This is why B-air isn't too great an approach anymore. Because people learned how to punish it thrown out, then people learned when a G&W "safely spaces it," it's not scary at all.
Any character is screwed when grabbed by IC's. This is common sense. Don't get grabbed.
Point is, a lot of characters can still grab break at lower percents. G&W can't. Because he's light. Unless you get grabbed at 10-15 or lower, a great IC's will kill you.
*what was said about flaws*
Well see, here's why I argue this so much.
You gotta know whats wrong in order to get better. And I just can't believe its due to unpopularity, or because people just won't take the time with him. And on top of that, those are both things we can do little to fix. I just don't like to see "I've finally learned how to play G&W" while he's still doing so poorly in tournies.
Yeah things are getting a bit better now. Being able to finally eat solids makes me really happy
sleeping is wicked uncomfortable, though.
Well thats good
Good to hear it. Like someone said earlier, get well soon, you're a G&W. There's not many of us left.
Also, you're not a nobody or anything, JKBUK. Those matches you posted showed that you're pretty good with G&W, so don't get down on yourself when bringing up NoJ. You can only get better!
Thanks
I've been trying to improve, but every tourney its lose to snake, lose to Anther. Or some other really beast player. I've picked up Dedede, in hopes to solve my snake problem. But MI sucks at organizing tournies, so god only knows when I'll be able to actually play again
