Mithost
Smash Ace
2.1 Ike showed up a few months ago. His fate seems to prove that not everyone shares this mindset.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
On the topic of Fox/Falco hate
- Thread starter 1MachGO
- Start date
- Status
leelue
Smash Lord
I didn't get good at smash until PM. Did light shielding have a positive effect on the ability to fight spacies in melee?
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
My intention was not to be condescending. Even if I had all the time and motivation in the world to explain to you smash theory over the boards, there are some things that you can only learn if someone shows you in the game. When I said "ask your local pro" I mean that exactly: find the best player you can get your hands on and ask them as much as you can! Have them help you through it. I don't know anything about you, where you live or anything, so I can't really be specific. If you're near me, I'd be happy to sit down and show you.
Where are you getting your information? Most people say Falco is #1 (though that isn't even agreed on) and I've seen notable players put Fox as low as 4th or 5th. The majority of people agree that there is not a tier divide between spacies and the ones directly below them.
They do have some really good match-ups, but they are relatively even against the common characters (marth, sheik, other spacies, puff, peach). They also can have a tough time with some odd match-ups like ICs and Samus.
Please, please stop with the fox hyperboles. It used to be funny to say "fox is so broken" but nobody really meant it dude. I can name plenty of moves that are as good or better than fox's.
Well this is actually two different ideas. One, that you want to change the goal of this mod, which I don't think is your call to make. Your other idea is that if fox or falco were to be introduced for the first time tomorrow, they would be nerfed, which is untrue. I've already talked about that bad argument before (wasn't it a reply to you, then, too?), but basically it boils down to fox has 10+ years of metagame behind him while new characters have ~6months. Also, fox doesn't even win tournaments in the current state of the metagame so I don't see how people would be reacting that way LOL
First, I'd like to point out that my only discussion on the topic hasn't been in this thread. I talk to players I respect in the community and get input from them. I haven't talked to anyone who thinks fox or falco are "too good" or deserve a nerf at all. You are simply an overly vocal minority.
How is there flawed character design if a) the character is very versatile and b) he is NOT broken? That sounds like design every character should aspire to have, not something that should be taken away simply because every character hasn't gotten there yet.
There is no evidence to support b or c at all. That is why I keep replying to your stuff, to show you the faults in your data and logic. Why are you so intent on "fixing" something that isn't broken? There is no benefit other than making it easier for people to beat fox, which is not something people are really having a hard time with ATM.
SunJester
Smash Ace
Could you elaborate on who you think is better then fox? Or possibly elaborate on these player's thoughts of who is better then fox? (other then falco)
leelue
Smash Lord
Actually, every single smasher but one/two that I've asked in person thinks that fox should be altered.
Seems like anecdotes alone can't determine who's the minority here.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
There are definitely regional patterns. Chicago area has been anti-fox change, probably because we have kels so readily available (and because he doesn't win P:M tournaments with fox/falco/sheik despite him EASILY dominating the exact same people with those characters in melee for 3 years+)
Its not my personal opinion, I voted 1) fox 2) falco on the last tier list vote. Here is Kirby Kaze's latest post about his tier list opinion (particularly, read the last sentence in his post).
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
You still don't get it. It's not that fox = meta knight and no one can beat him. Its that Fox makes it so all other characters lacking certain mobility or silly anti-spacie technology get destroyed. He forces over half the cast to be buffed in particular ways to keep up. Thats the thing.
Also, I want your list for moves that parallel fox's usmash in their effect. That is NO hyperbole. I want you to point out a move that is
a. as fast as fox's usmash
b. as strong as fox's usmash
c. as versatile in breaking it out
d. as positionally independent (it's equally good anywhere on a flat stage, and its even better on higher up platforms.
Also, I want your list for moves that parallel fox's usmash in their effect. That is NO hyperbole. I want you to point out a move that is
a. as fast as fox's usmash
b. as strong as fox's usmash
c. as versatile in breaking it out
d. as positionally independent (it's equally good anywhere on a flat stage, and its even better on higher up platforms.
Pikachu?
Leave Pikachu alone!
Just a note, that 'tier-list' by KirbyKaze has been consistent and steady for several years, and he's not the only one who has been sticking with it.
Many others have the same list, but with Peach in the top 5. Most of these players have kept their 'ideas' of the 'list' this way long before Armada, even before Mango and Puff, and will continue to stay that way.
There is no way to define one character as better than the other in those 'groups' until/unless something dramatic happens for any decent period of time.
This is ideally where Project: M is going, and where it seems to be going.
Nothing is broken with Fox/Falco, and there's no reason to hate anything unless things are actually 'broken' (Ike design or Sonic design can bring reasoning, or overly mashing Lucario stuff, etc)
Things require much more time to play out in an expressed/tangible way before they can be accurately determined, at all.
Patience.
On another note, DK's dash grab looks broken, it's just so wacky and looks like he teleports mid-grab attempt!
Just a note, that 'tier-list' by KirbyKaze has been consistent and steady for several years, and he's not the only one who has been sticking with it.
Many others have the same list, but with Peach in the top 5. Most of these players have kept their 'ideas' of the 'list' this way long before Armada, even before Mango and Puff, and will continue to stay that way.
There is no way to define one character as better than the other in those 'groups' until/unless something dramatic happens for any decent period of time.
This is ideally where Project: M is going, and where it seems to be going.
Nothing is broken with Fox/Falco, and there's no reason to hate anything unless things are actually 'broken' (Ike design or Sonic design can bring reasoning, or overly mashing Lucario stuff, etc)
Things require much more time to play out in an expressed/tangible way before they can be accurately determined, at all.
Patience.
On another note, DK's dash grab looks broken, it's just so wacky and looks like he teleports mid-grab attempt!
NightShadow6
Smash Journeyman
Don't fix what isn't broken.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I think that has more to do with the group of smashers you play with. I think another group might be the opposite, where 90% don't want Fox change. I do think he's right in that those who want Fox/Falco changed are way more vocal than those who don't. Like I'm among those that don't think they should be changed, but I'm not going to complain about it since I don't even play them in Project M.
I'm more interested in how you think they should be changed as opposed to why though, as that discussion just seems to keep circling itself. I already mentioned the idea of nerfing their recoveries and I think that's the nerf that would most maintain the characteristics the characters are known for (since they're kind of glass cannons to begin with). What exactly do you think should be changed about them?
I really don't think anti-spacie technology is required for every character to keep up. Sheik for example can definitely play with the spacies and I wouldn't call any of her tools "anti-spacie". Also her movement, while still good, does have limitations in it. I definitely disagree that the spacies make it so that there's a set formula that has to be followed for a character to even be viable.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
...................its not like he just asks people he plays with.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Given Pikachu's mobility, I would hardly call his up smash as versatile as Fox's. But you are right, Pikachu's isn't a bad parallel. But it has always been acceptable on Pikachu because it is understood that Pikachu really lacks other great tools you need to put the percentage on. Fox has those tools in abundance, from afar, near, and everything in between.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I think a fox managing to backflip at you should be powerful.
leelue
Smash Lord
1) I have played a lot of ****ing people, from all over the east half of the country. I get around a lot now
2) In a perfect world: pretty different. I'd like for every character to have a cool novel change and tweaks here and there and something to make playing them feel like a new game.
Since we live in this world: properties that follow the same trade-off rules that every other character has to live by. If your only weak points (hell, nearly your only average points) are up throws, homing attacks, and your own skill ceiling, then you don't need this laundry list of areas where you're in the top third of the character list. Projectiles, shield pressure, recovery options, variability in your approach options, number of kill attacks, ratio of body model to hitbox size, dash speed, one-and-done edgeguarding options, average startup time for moves, and whatever else one of them is good at... I'd like for them to be less reaaaaaaaaallllly good here and less susceptible to silver bullets there. I am a fan of restricted normalization.
Like I said before, it'd be nice to have a game where if I look at a character's Oos options, I don't immediately realize what this was here for.
It'd be nice to play a game where these characters were built towards, not built around. But you can't do that this way.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
To be fair, fox has the absolute worst projectile in the game. The only reason it is useful is because fox is faster.
He also has pretty ****ty range and gets out prioritized by other characters; the main way he gets hits is by using his speed to out maneuver, not by out prioritizing or out ranging.
Fox is a glass canon and the king of versatility. His recovery is low tier relative to the P:M cast (compared to relative top tier in melee) not to mention he is really easy to combo and tech chase. He has inherent weakness and flaws, he has counter match-ups, and he isn't the best in any category.
If you want to change the character, completely remake him. Do not just nerf things like they did with sheik (who is now a boring as hell character that nobody plays).
He also has pretty ****ty range and gets out prioritized by other characters; the main way he gets hits is by using his speed to out maneuver, not by out prioritizing or out ranging.
Fox is a glass canon and the king of versatility. His recovery is low tier relative to the P:M cast (compared to relative top tier in melee) not to mention he is really easy to combo and tech chase. He has inherent weakness and flaws, he has counter match-ups, and he isn't the best in any category.
If you want to change the character, completely remake him. Do not just nerf things like they did with sheik (who is now a boring as hell character that nobody plays).
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm not even sure about the point you're trying to make with this. How good/bad it would be on another character isn't relevant to how good the move is on Fox. It's his projectile, and if it's useful for him, that's all that matters.
Complete exaggeration.
So the only thing that made Sheik fun for you was her ridiculous D-throw? And I see lots of people playing Sheik.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Sveet is exaggerating a lot on most of those points. Fox has a good projectile and a great recovery. It isn't Sonic or Peach, but it's in the 80th percentile for sure.
7% per second that forces the opponent to engage Fox by his rules is nothing to scoff at.
7% per second that forces the opponent to engage Fox by his rules is nothing to scoff at.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
umm his projectile does 3% if it isn't stale and it has NO STUN. No other projectile in any smashbros game has absolutely no stun besides fox's laser (i guess maybe those water guns in brawl, but im not sure). I'm not sure if you realize how bad that really is. Sure you can run away and shoot a laser, but you can't telegraph it because using it puts you at a severe disadvantage; they can just run towards you, take the 3% and then combo you to death.
And no, his recovery is actually pretty awful relative to the P:M cast. Simply being a fast faller is a liability in P:M. Now take into consideration that the length of his upb isn't very special; in melee it was very long, but theres recoveries like diddy's that totally outshine fox's. I would make a list of characters that have better recoveries than him, but its easier to just make a list of worse ones: Falco, Rob and Squirtile. Ness, Ganon and sheik are probably in a similar tier with fox in terms of relative ease to exploit and lack of overall range, but they all have better weight and floatiness properties.
And no, his recovery is actually pretty awful relative to the P:M cast. Simply being a fast faller is a liability in P:M. Now take into consideration that the length of his upb isn't very special; in melee it was very long, but theres recoveries like diddy's that totally outshine fox's. I would make a list of characters that have better recoveries than him, but its easier to just make a list of worse ones: Falco, Rob and Squirtile. Ness, Ganon and sheik are probably in a similar tier with fox in terms of relative ease to exploit and lack of overall range, but they all have better weight and floatiness properties.
SwordsRbroken
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2009
- Messages
- 104
Lol no Falcon on the list of people with worse recoveries than Fox
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Oh yeah, sometimes I forget he exists; nobody plays him lol. Falcon does have some amazing aerial mobility and weight going for him, not to mention a better upb and a sideb too. Hes probably in the same tier as fox atm.
B.W.
Smash Champion
Wait... Did Sveet just say that Falcon's recovery as good as Fox's and that his up-B and side-B are better than Fox's for recovering?
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
No. When i said "better" i meant relative to melee since his recovery in melee was considered pretty awful and not comparable to fox's
B.W.
Smash Champion
Kay good cause was gonna call you high as ****.
His recovery is still not comparable to Fox's though lol.
His recovery is still not comparable to Fox's though lol.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
what about slower characters like ivy and zelda when you laser camp them and they can't reach you or really do much about it :/
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
I mean, we can talk about each match-up in particular if you want, but I don't know what it accomplishes.
Assuming its a stage that fox can't just run away indefinitely (like rumble falls or something), they can just take space gradually. You don't have to actually hit fox for lasering, just move forward enough that if he does it again you will. Fox will then have to retreat in order to laser more, losing himself more stage, and you can just take a bit more space. You might take 10% in lasers during this time, but you gained control of the entire stage. Alternatively, those characters both have pretty decent projectiles of their own that they can use.
Assuming its a stage that fox can't just run away indefinitely (like rumble falls or something), they can just take space gradually. You don't have to actually hit fox for lasering, just move forward enough that if he does it again you will. Fox will then have to retreat in order to laser more, losing himself more stage, and you can just take a bit more space. You might take 10% in lasers during this time, but you gained control of the entire stage. Alternatively, those characters both have pretty decent projectiles of their own that they can use.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
if you watch m2k vs salem or zhime you'll see that there's nothing they could do about the lasers. he'd just laser them to 80% and then hit with usmash. what I'm getting at is that slower characters can do nothing about the laser camping
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
There are definitely things that can be done about lasers. I haven't seen those matches and I can't access youtube, but its probably the players' fault. I remember people used to say thats all fox had to do against puff and other slow characters in melee because thats all m2k would do and he would 3-4stock people, but then people realized how to properly deal with it.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Yeah its a pretty awful stage, tbh.
Agree with pretty much everything Sveet has to say.
PM players should actually listen to good players who actually main said character. o3o
also PM player base should get better. owo
PM players should actually listen to good players who actually main said character. o3o
also PM player base should get better. owo
B.W.
Smash Champion
Fox's lasers are only good because Fox has them, there's a lot of truth in that. When it comes to projectile spam the way of dealing with it is using the stage to get around the projectiles that are making advancing in a straight line a non-option and to corner (put the spammer at the edge) and cover his escape routes so he can't just run to the other side and keep doing what he's doing. You don't really have to worry about going around Fox's lasers in this case, and Fox's jumps aren't majorly impressive so getting stopping him from getting around you isn't the hardest thing in the world. Lasers are really just good for, like Kink said, forcing the opponent to approach in the first place which forces you to play by Fox's rules. As soon as you get close enough the Fox player should use his ******** good dash-dancing over his laser spam to bait and punish and do physical damage.
I'm not saying Fox is fine and doesn't need some kinds of toning down, but I really don't view his lasers as the problem with his tool kit. They do decent damage if you're not making smart advances toward him (using platforms to get around lasers, etc) and even slower characters can minimize the damage you take from them while approaching. The only thing I find dumb about his lasers is that he can shoot them at you while you recover so if you manage to make it back anyway there's a possibility of taking a lot of damage on your way back which makes it easier for Fox to kill you when he's edgeguarding.
I'm not saying Fox is fine and doesn't need some kinds of toning down, but I really don't view his lasers as the problem with his tool kit. They do decent damage if you're not making smart advances toward him (using platforms to get around lasers, etc) and even slower characters can minimize the damage you take from them while approaching. The only thing I find dumb about his lasers is that he can shoot them at you while you recover so if you manage to make it back anyway there's a possibility of taking a lot of damage on your way back which makes it easier for Fox to kill you when he's edgeguarding.
D
Deleted member
Guest
So basically anybody who disagrees with you just needs to get better. Okay.
JOE!
Smash Hero
How do you not have access to youtube at all?
Also, I'm sure you can name moves that are as good as or better than fox's on several characters. The point here is that it takes a spread of several moves on separate characters to equal or possibly surpass the combination seen on him. He's not the best due to any one thing, as you said he's the master of versatiltiy, meaning any given option an opponent chooses, he has a counter option just as good or better.
Also, I'm sure you can name moves that are as good as or better than fox's on several characters. The point here is that it takes a spread of several moves on separate characters to equal or possibly surpass the combination seen on him. He's not the best due to any one thing, as you said he's the master of versatiltiy, meaning any given option an opponent chooses, he has a counter option just as good or better.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Are you saying you want a game where every character does not have an answer to choices the opponent makes? Instead of trying to take away things fox has to render him useless, focus on adding things to other character to make them as good as he is. Fox has amazing character design.
Also, this is why I do not have access to youtube: http://getcoldturkey.com/
Also, this is why I do not have access to youtube: http://getcoldturkey.com/
JOE!
Smash Hero
Use a phone, other computer, etc, etc.
I'm not saying I want a game where a character *doesnt* have an answer, I'm saying Fox always has an answer that is just as good as or better, meaning only specific cases where players can really punish him are when the fox messes up.
Also, when you said "noting each match-up wont do anything", it most certainly would:
Say going over each match up shows that he really only goes neutral with like, Falco, Shiek and Peach, and beats everyone else in much the same manner. Even though not technically broken as he does have 3 even MU's, if he is a leg up on the remaining cast due to a few traits or a certain strategy, would that not raise an eyebrow?
I'm not saying I want a game where a character *doesnt* have an answer, I'm saying Fox always has an answer that is just as good as or better, meaning only specific cases where players can really punish him are when the fox messes up.
Also, when you said "noting each match-up wont do anything", it most certainly would:
Say going over each match up shows that he really only goes neutral with like, Falco, Shiek and Peach, and beats everyone else in much the same manner. Even though not technically broken as he does have 3 even MU's, if he is a leg up on the remaining cast due to a few traits or a certain strategy, would that not raise an eyebrow?
D
Deleted member
Guest
i know this thread is troll bait already but the last 24 hours of posts have been particularly awful.
- Status