On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[leelue]

I don't think Ike's Side B is stupid because of the options out of it. It's stupid because it reaches a full charge in a half-second and the nerfs to it don't make the parts that were silly less silly. I'd prefer having all of: action on frame 1 back, having it charge slower, having the initial length of the dash shortened, and having charging increase the distance the move travels, rather than increasing the frames for which Ike travels while maintaining the same speed. As it stands, the mobility offered by a no-charge and a full-charge have minimal disparity, and the brief charge time makes what little difference there is even less noticeable.

Ah I see. I was thinking about how I have to completely respect this move every time he's 5 feet away from me as ganon. Honestly, I think it'd make sense if he didn't have the two normal slashes out of it on the ground and maybe the charge time was more important. But I don't know *that* much about the character to say if this is stupid or if it's really a clean move to make.

polarizing is... kind of what spacies are supposed to be.

I doubt this was the melee team's intention.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Most obvious way to go about it would be making the risks even riskier. Give stuff like Usmash a more narrow hitbox, stuff like that, enforce every hit a spacie makes to be clear and perfect, so the technical bits become moreso.

How mad would Falco mains be if the PMBR changed their frame-5 spike with 20 active frames to require some modicum of precision, though?

 

[leelue]

Hitbox > (2)Falco's size

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think making them need to be more precise is a good idea, and one of the reasons for that is the fact that it could very well help Melee space animal players with their Melee gameplay. That is arguable, of course; I imagine that needing to be precise will make them more reliable with those tactics in Melee, but I suppose it might also prevent Melee players from abusing the boosted stuff in Melee.

I wonder how Melee space animal mains feel about that (specifically whether or not they think it would hurt or help their Melee play).

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I hate space animals. Is this thread for me?

I like the sound of requiring more precision in the d-air.

 

[Magus420]

Actual size of the d-air hitboxes btw:

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I guess that hitbox makes sense since Falco spins really fast, it must be like a whirlwind/tornado deal that spreads out the hotbox to areas around his feet/legs

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Since it also "does" the hitbox located in the previous frame (if I remember a previous discussion correctly), would the original animation be accurate in the case of him falling at normal speed, and would it be "spread out" further down on a rising D-Air?

 

[leelue]

Interpolation, Reflex
I think

 

[Vigilante]

I don't speak on behalf of the PMBR:

The question of whether Fox and Falco are well-designed or not is a very comparative exercise. If you look at Brawl, the reason we say he's poorly designed is because comparatively to the rest of the cast, he is marginally better than even the second best character in the game, the difference in power between MK and other characters seems almost insurmountable. In Melee, I would venture to say that even a bottom tier has a chance at winning against the top tiers, albeit it will be a very, very uphill struggle. And by a chance, I merely mean it is possible but unlikely. By that standard, their balance design is better. Now if you look at Project M, there are more characters clearly designed to be good against spacies like Wario, and most characters are being given anti-spacies counter-measures, further indirectly improving their design from a balance standpoint. In recent tournaments, spacies have been present but not dominating tourneys, which says a lot about the improvements we have made on several members of the cast.

Design is always something you got to view in context.Even without any sizeable changes from Melee, one can say spacies are better designed in the Project M metagame from a balance perspective just because of where the rest of the cast stands. It,s not as clear cut as going "Said character did not change, so he's just as good as he used to be". If you make everyone better, naturally, you are indirectly nerfing the the character. At the same time, you must consider the new characters. Squirtle, Ivysaur, Lucario, Ike, Olimar, Wario, Zero Suit, Diddy, etc... were not part of the melee cast and they bring a new stream of matchups. Then you got added things like Footstool jump (that many forget exist), DACUS, new stage lists, etc... Project M sports a lot of variety that was previously not present in Melee, which changes the metagame drastically.

I actually never had much of a problem with the spacies. If anything, I think characters like Roy in Melee were horribly designed in terms of balance. They used Marth, changed the sweetspots hitboxes haphazardly and called it a day. Mind you, he's incredibly fun to play, but he's weak, and that's because they didn't pour the effort to balance him correctly. Then you got characters like Jiggs that are just built around being as annoying as possible. They are poorly-balanced and defy all rules of smash. Mind you, if you like Jiggs, all the power to you, my friend. I don't like floaties, and we can just agree to disagree.

My point is that yes, they were very good in Melee. Others did not compare. Yet, if you look at Project M, the spacies were improved dramatically simply due to balance changes made to the game.

Edit: Also, if I do not respond, it is because I haven't got the time to be around the forums, being flooded by work and such.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know who told you that Wario was clearly designed to do well against space animals, but as one of the main playtesters associated with his current design and one of the best PM Wario players to date, I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

 

[JOE!]

Another thing to point out, and you said it yourself:

Now if you look at Project M, there are more characters clearly designed to be good against spacies like Wario, and most characters are being given anti-spacies counter-measures, further indirectly improving their design from a balance standpoint.

This is like saying a raging brushfire is fine since we're building fireproof houses while it's still burning, instead of dousing the fire.

 

[Vigilante]

You are right, my wording was not perfect. What I do mean to say is that his design makes him rather good against them, not that he was "designed" that way.

As for Joe, I don,t see the spacies as being problematic in their design, as a fire to quell. The only reason they could have been considered problematic was due to the fact that other characters sucked in comparison to them. If other characters become good, then it becomes a non/lesser-issue.

 

[JOE!]

Very true, but the method of "being good" seems to be "by having tools to fight these two guys in particular, nevermind anybody else".

 

[Vigilante]

Yes and no. Floaties are also very problematic. Peach and Jiggs have moves one could consider extremely stupid, and their nature makes it so that comboing them requires different sorts of moves. If you make characters too good against fast-fallers, you may neglect matchups against floaties and just move the problem elsewhere.

Characters aren't really fashioned to take down spacies, but rather, to deal with a wide variety of threats. Smash is one of those games where characters are so incredibly different that it,s almost as if different characters operate on different rules at times.

Really, spacies as a whole aren't fundamentally poor design. If anything, I think there is a reason people play them beyond the fact that they are good. They also feel good for a lot of people. Evo proved that people are not going to play a game unless they are having fun with it. For a large range of players, spacies are both good and fun. Now the issue with some players is that they hate being manhandled by spacies and feeling helpless. That was a Melee problem we hope to rectify whilst maintaining as much of the spacie feel as possible.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, the idea that Meta Knight is just an untouchable god of a character is not a thing anymore. The existing "issue" with Meta Knight is that the entire metagame basically revolves around the character, which is not the case for PM space animals (technically, that remains to be seen, but it seems pretty unlikely).

Also-also, he's poorly designed because of his mechanics, not because he absolutely molests low tiers (it's not any more an impossible matchup than lopsided stuff in Melee). II would argue that Meta Knight's matchup ratios don't get get into "basically impossible" territory. That's reserved for specific matchups in both games (Melee: Bowser vs. Jigglypuff/Peach/Sheik/something; Brawl: Dedede's infinite chaingrab, Ice Climbers vs. Ganondorf).

EDIT: Also-also-also, I'm under the impression that Wario doesn't do all that great against space animals. Probably does alright compared to the cast as a whole, but I'd still call it a (not-tiny) disadvantaged matchup in both cases.

 

[Vigilante]

As I have said, balance is something you measure in context. Mechanics are part of the balance, so your Ice Climbers examples just gives more strength to my argument.

You can't excuse a balance fault with "It's because of a flaw in mechanics". It's like saying "Fox is not that good if you don't factor in Wavedashing". Anything that is within the possibility of the game and can be exploited is a balance factor.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As I have said, balance is something you measure in context. Mechanics are part of the balance, so your Ice Climbers examples just gives more strength to my argument.

You can't excuse a balance fault with "It's because of a flaw in mechanics". It's like saying "Fox is not that good if you don't factor in Wavedashing"

Sure, I'll give you that; balance is measured in context. Still, the entire point of my post was that you were making a comparison of Meta Knight to Fox in "goodness" compared to the cast. Meta Knight doesn't completely and utterly dominate the low tiers (at least, not in the "may as well put down your controller" kind of way), and he doesn't have a 7-3 matchup against the high tiers. The same can be said for Fox.

 

[The_NZA]

I think making them need to be more precise is a good idea, and one of the reasons for that is the fact that it could very well help Melee space animal players with their Melee gameplay. That is arguable, of course; I imagine that needing to be precise will make them more reliable with those tactics in Melee, but I suppose it might also prevent Melee players from abusing the boosted stuff in Melee.

I wonder how Melee space animal mains feel about that (specifically whether or not they think it would hurt or help their Melee play).

I don't really understand this comment, Reflex. Can you reiterate it for me?

Also, here's my issue with Fox's identity as a "glass cannon". Glass cannon implies the ability to have supreme stats at the expense of low life. Basically, if given the right opportunities, you can tool on your opponents, but if you misstep, you will be tooled on. Normally, glass cannons are able to exist because their stats are superior to their opponents. Its not that you are playing with half a health bar and are forcing your opponent to also play with half a health bar––its that you are sacrificing your health bar to have superior speed, comboability, tools to take the game from your opponent. Jiggly puff also operates this way. She doesn't have one amazing all purpose move that just wrecks everyone. She has a downb that can create leads and comebacks at great risk, but most of her toolset is just flat out superior––great air play, an amazing bair and fair, incredible recovery.

The problem with Fox's usmash is that it doesn't fit into his character identity of being a glass cannon. His unsurpassed mobility? Sure. His shine gimp game? Absolutely. His safeness with a frame one combo starter? Those are great dimensions to a character that can be considered a glass cannon. But usmash is such a good versatile killer that it essentially makes his opponents play with a smaller life bar. So while you only need to lose 3 engagements as fox to die, your opponent really only needs to lose 3 engagements as well. To me, that's not how a glass cannon should be played.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is like saying a raging brushfire is fine since we're building fireproof houses while it's still burning, instead of dousing the fire.

If you were trying to build a peaceful society to live in, sure. But this is competitive gaming. The point is to have scenarios like the that. Unmovable vs unstopable. Most mobile vs best zoning.

 

[JOE!]

@Vigilante

Right, but again, even though all characters are playing an essentially different game vs another (which is the best part about Smash vs other fighters IMO), the goal of every fight is the same: get the opponent to high % and kill them and/or get them off-stage and prevent them from recovering. Fox and Falco have the best method of meeting these goals in melee when they are played correctly. Peach and Puff also have great ways of going about this, but moreso thanks to a handful of moves which are another can of worms.


@Sveet

It was an analogy. The space animals are now in an environment where change is occurring to even the likes of Sheik. That said, a lot of changes have happened to other characters and not the space animals themselves in response to try and make them compete with the space animals, when in turn it may be a better solution to just adjust them instead.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, if you had to be more precise to land moves in PM, you'd theoretically go back to Melee and could be more reliable in landing those moves, because there's more leeway. For example, if Falco's D-Air only had a few frames of spiking and the rest was a sourspot that sent people away instead of down, they'd be better at landing the sweetspot in Melee.

On the other hand, some changes could theoretically hinder players. For example, say that a future version of PM made the Shine hitbox smaller. A Melee player might be hindered in Melee after using this PM Shine, because they would not be used to the bigger, easier-to-land hitbox in Melee. Perhaps a player would be able to get their shield up in time because a Fox player decides to try to center himself unnecessarily.

 

[The_NZA]

I see. A counterargument could be that the impreciseness of the dair in melee allows for some strings that would be impossible if you had to be precise (covering a ton of options at once) but in general i think you are right. Again, if i could change fox/falco it would be simple. Usmash should be weaker, maybe uair should be weaker (i'm mostly fine with it), and a little more lag when he lands from upb (leave fb untouched).

Falco, the first half spike second half meteor smash is cool.

 

[Giygacoal]

Would "making Falco's dair spike require more precision" be a constant nerf though? Just by first impression, it just seems like something that would just take a bit of getting used to, and then Falco would just be back to being really linear and overpowered. I guess that depends on exactly how strict you guys make the window and whether this ends up putting a true lasting effect on the character, like capping the length (and therefore damage) of his vertical combos or something. The additional meteor hitbox seems like something worth trying out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Would "making Falco's dair spike require more precision" be a constant nerf though?

Alternatively (and, yes, this is sarcastic), what if we brought other characters in line with Falco in that sense, so that Ike and G&W send people downward for the entirety of the active frames of their D-Airs?

I think that as long as we're pushing for great technical prowess, requiring a reasonable amount of precision would improve the game.

 

[John12346]

Edit: whoops wrong thread

 

[Bones0]

.... really?

Your argument makes me seriously wonder to what extent you've played this or any smash bros game. The only reason you're not getting laughed off the boards right now is because were 750 posts deep on a thread that nobody reads. Go post your argument in the melee fox boards and see what kind of response you get.

From what I can tell, Reflex is a very talented smasher, but he seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) a barlw player that came to P:M, maining Wario in both. Because he plays Wario and comes from barlw, he virtually never DDs or WDs. Wario has crazy air mobility so he doesn't really NEED WDing as bad as other characters (comparable to Puff; Reflex has said himself that Wario's WD is bad and he doesn't really need DDing vs. the people he plays). I've had discussions with him in the Squirtle forums that make it quite clear he does not have a very good understanding of how the DD WD spacing game works in Melee, or P:M. He has said things along the lines of calling Squirtle's huge WD useless for approaching among other ridiculous things. Example:

Anything he gained from Melee physics can be applied by many other characters and is generally considered trivial in the case of "secrets that have yet to be unlocked." The same could be said for the Brawl-based movement tricks, except for the fact that nobody really played Brawl Squirtle, so everyone hopeful is expecting to find hidden potential in the combination.

Anyway, this is why I think there is such a huge gap between Reflex's skill and his understanding of how neutral works in P:M with characters that rely heavily on DD and WDing as opposed to just zoning with insane air mobility. If anyone doubts me, just watch his vids and count how many times he DD grabs, WDs back grabs, let alone DD and WD to create deceptive movement. He simply doesn't use it, but that's almost more impressive to me than it is disappointing. lol

I think making them need to be more precise is a good idea, and one of the reasons for that is the fact that it could very well help Melee space animal players with their Melee gameplay. That is arguable, of course; I imagine that needing to be precise will make them more reliable with those tactics in Melee, but I suppose it might also prevent Melee players from abusing the boosted stuff in Melee.

I wonder how Melee space animal mains feel about that (specifically whether or not they think it would hurt or help their Melee play).

It would definitely not help a person's Melee play to make their character different in any way (at least not in the long run). You can make Falco's dair a little more difficult to hit, but he, along with Fox, is already one of the most difficult characters to play at top level because of how high of a demand they have on precision and tech skill. I don't thinking making his dair require more precision will do anything other than make the character less accessible to new players.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

From what I can tell, Reflex is a very talented smasher, but he seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) a barlw player that came to P:M, maining Wario in both. Because he plays Wario and comes from barlw, he virtually never DDs or WDs. Wario has crazy air mobility so he doesn't really NEED WDing as bad as other characters (comparable to Puff; Reflex has said himself that Wario's WD is bad and he doesn't really need DDing vs. the people he plays). I've had discussions with him in the Squirtle forums that make it quite clear he does not have a very good understanding of how the DD WD spacing game works in Melee, or P:M. He has said things along the lines of calling Squirtle's huge WD useless for approaching among other ridiculous things. Example:

Anyway, this is why I think there is such a huge gap between Reflex's skill and his understanding of how neutral works in P:M with characters that rely heavily on DD and WDing as opposed to just zoning with insane air mobility. If anyone doubts me, just watch his vids and count how many times he DD grabs, WDs back grabs, let alone DD and WD to create deceptive movement. He simply doesn't use it, but that's almost more impressive to me than it is disappointing. lol

It would definitely not help a person's Melee play to make their character different in any way (at least not in the long run). You can make Falco's dair a little more difficult to hit, but he, along with Fox, is already one of the most difficult characters to play at top level because of how high of a demand they have on precision and tech skill. I don't thinking making his dair require more precision will do anything other than make the character less accessible to new players.

You're putting words in my mouth and making large leaps. I claim that Squirtle's large wavedash isn't a good means of approaching because all of his other means of approaching are lackluster (making a wavedash really predictable) and he doesn't get much reward off the most useful follow-ups to a wavedash. I never called it useless, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

The people I tend to play against are not nearly as skilled as I am, so I have little need to mix people up that way, even if stuff like dashdancing is fundamental to the average approach. Compare your statement to the APEX videos, and you'll probably find a better comparison to make. That said, despite what you seem to think, a dearth of wavedash use isn't synonymous with a poor understanding of how it's effectively used.

Either way, there's no good reason to decry my game knowledge based on your limited understanding of my understand (that's a silly sentence). You can think what you want, but making accusations based on watching a handful of videos where I mollywhop people and my disagreeing with you about Squirtle's neutral game is in really poor taste.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its okay to be ignorant of certain nuances, reflex. Hell, Trail still doesn't JC grab and hes been a top MW player since before I started playing. We get that you're a great player, but I find it a little unreasonable that you are making claims about something you don't fully understand. Honestly, that is my complaint for all of the nerf arguments (regardless of character): we just don't know enough. Get more data. There is always more to be learned. The game is far more interesting when it remains mostly static and we are forced, as players, to learn more so that we can beat certain strategies. Everything is beatable by simply getting better, unless it is broken (in which case, change it).

"I've heard Blizzard speak about this exact issue before, and I like the philosophy they mentioned. On the one hand, yes you want to improve the game over time. On the other hand, you actually don't achieve that by making every change everyone asks for. If you do that, you'll move some things in the wrong direction sometimes, and you'll weaken things that weren't too strong or strengthen things that weren't too weak. Another thing Blizzard has mentioned is that if you change stuff every time any balance claim is made, you end up training your players to not look very hard for counters. You train them to rely on you, the developer, as a crutch and they might not be reaching the higher level of play they should reach before making the claim in the first place. So Blizzard's point is some temperance is required: you do want to make changes, but only when they are warranted." -David Sirlin

 

[SpiderMad]

I think making them need to be more precise is a good idea, and one of the reasons for that is the fact that it could very well help Melee space animal players with their Melee gameplay. That is arguable, of course; I imagine that needing to be precise will make them more reliable with those tactics in Melee, but I suppose it might also prevent Melee players from abusing the boosted stuff in Melee.

I wonder how Melee space animal mains feel about that (specifically whether or not they think it would hurt or help their Melee play).

That's some really weird talk, I'm sure it would only be detrimental to Melee play like any other change

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Its okay to be ignorant of certain nuances, reflex.

I'm fully aware of that. I didn't know that shellshifting with Squirtle put you in the equivalent of a sliding neutral position until 2012 despite the fact that this was apparently well-known even in 2008, and I have no problem admitting -that,- and that trait is the single most important thing related to shellshifting (I was -the- PT player, since you apparently haven't heard of me). The issue is that people are claiming I don't understand something that I do understand, for no reason other than that a few videos don't make use of my explanation. I don't like the fact that people are assuming things simply because a small percentage of what one sees doesn't match up with a stereotypical notion of understanding. "He plays Brawl, therefore he must have a poor understanding of mechanics behind Melee physics."

That's some really weird talk, I'm sure it would only be detrimental to Melee play like any other change

What does "Melee play" imply? The only thing that suggested change would do is require a reasonable amount of precision for the weaker D-Air hit.

 

[SpiderMad]

It's the word you had lol, and I'm agreeing with the "but I suppose it might also prevent Melee players from abusing the boosted stuff in Melee."

 

[The_NZA]

In this topic, fox mains argue one of the best pm player "doesn't know what he's talking about" without actually watching his play.

Assuming reflex didn't understand DDing or WDing (which is obviously not true), that would only make him think fox was worse than he actually is (because Fox's dashdance/wavedash game and mobility are what many people construe as his best features). Again, you guys are falling on personal attacks rather than responding to what is being said in the topic. It is ridiculous that this conversation has turned from a "fox has too many good things" to a "I bet reflex is just bad or doesn't understand the game he is developing" conversation. How about you can only make judgements of Reflex's understanding of the game if you can take a set off of hungrybox in a tournament.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If a hitbox is bigger, they might have trouble making the most of it when switching between Melee and PM, though the difference seems like it would be negligible in that case, especially since Melee Falco D-Air is "use that move ASAP" if you want the sour hit.

EDIT: I'm not trying to "defend my honor" or anything. I don't have anything to prove, and I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm using my past results as a crutch for an argument. I just don't want people to make really big assumptions about me, much like people don't want others to make big assumptions about Fox.

 

[B.W.]

Reflex is the hero SWF deserves.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Assuming we're greatly concerned about how Melee pros feels, there's not some big line between Fox/Falco and the rest of the cast. Fox and Falco are not the only characters that Melee pros play and/or care about, yet the changes made to other Melee high tiers have been pretty well-received overall. That's important to consider. Other than the Sheik D-Throw stuff that people eventually realized was an excellent idea, where has the PMBR let you down in terms of purposeful changes to those characters?

Weren't the small buffs to the high tiers made to help them out against the top tiers? In that case then why is it bad to bring everyone else to that level?

M2K is allowed to use PM as another paycheck. This game, our game, that he doesn't seem to care about. To hell with that if you ask me. When we knocked his team into losers and then he got beaten in losers finals, I refused to let him hear the end of it. I don't think anybody grasps the level of offense I take from seeing someone think they can just pick up a controller and succeed at PM just by their name and character selection.

I don't understand the hostility here

I think it was a good idea. Those characters had stupid, stupid traits. I like the fact that nothing should be allowed to be set in stone. Even a "yeah, this move does 1% too much maybe" level of micromanagement is something I'm totally down for.

Yea nothing should be set in stone, but I don't think they were better than Fox or Falco so I don't see the problem

 

[Bones0]

You're putting words in my mouth and making large leaps. I claim that Squirtle's large wavedash isn't a good means of approaching because all of his other means of approaching are lackluster (making a wavedash really predictable) and he doesn't get much reward off the most useful follow-ups to a wavedash. I never called it useless, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

The people I tend to play against are not nearly as skilled as I am, so I have little need to mix people up that way, even if stuff like dashdancing is fundamental to the average approach. Compare your statement to the APEX videos, and you'll probably find a better comparison to make. That said, despite what you seem to think, a dearth of wavedash use isn't synonymous with a poor understanding of how it's effectively used.

Either way, there's no good reason to decry my game knowledge based on your limited understanding of my understand (that's a silly sentence). You can think what you want, but making accusations based on watching a handful of videos where I mollywhop people and my disagreeing with you about Squirtle's neutral game is in really poor taste.

Yes, you've claimed before that WDing as an approach is too predictable, at which point I simply commented that WD approaches are much less predictable when you also include DDing as well. Whether he gets good punishes off of his approaches is completely irrelevant to the point of his WD being good for approaching even if all he had as an option out of it was a shield or grab (which isn't the case). I'm also not trying to make the discussion specifically about Squirtle's WD, since the major thing with Fox is his DD. In your very own post you admit that you don't really apply DD in any meaningful regard because you don't play anyone that poses enough of a threat to force you to DD well:

I use my fair share of wavedashing with Ivysaur for spacing specific moves. There's very little reason to wavedash as Wario because of his movement options (and the fact that his wavedash sucks). While I do regularly dashdance, I have little need of it if the people I play don't pose much of a threat (which is rarely the case, but happens sometimes). I've done my fair share of Melee and certainly understand the uses and appeal of them.

I can not stress this enough: I am not calling you bad. You've obviously proven yourself as a player, and I said as much in my original post. However, just because you are good at the game doesn't mean you understand every single concept to the fullest extent, especially concepts that you yourself have admitted are largely irrelevant to your main. As far as comparing my claim to the Apex videos, the very first result for "reflex wario" was THIS set vs. Okami in which you DDed, WDed, and WLed approximately 0 times... If you have any understanding of DDing or WDing in neutral, you are definitely not demonstrating it in your tournament sets. Obviously that understanding may still be there, but I have a hard time believing anyone who cannot properly utilize DDWD in neutral can truly understand it. Also keep in mind the only reason I'm questioning your experience with DDing and WDing is because the way you replied to Sveet makes it seem like you are greatly overestimating to what extent Fox is able to simply DD camp every character.

I mean, idc at this point. If you don't want to discuss your understanding of DDWD, then by all means ignore this post. I was mostly just trying to point out to Sveet that there may be an inherent disconnect when you have a Melee Fox player and barlw Wario player discussing the neutral game in P:M. Surely, even you can at least agree that the two different perspectives are bound to lead to disagreements because of the underlying principles encouraged in each game/character combination's neutral game. Even players with different mains in the same game have a tendency to view neutral drastically different, so players from entirely different games will obviously disagree on a lot of stuff.

In this topic, fox mains argue one of the best pm player "doesn't know what he's talking about" without actually watching his play.

Assuming reflex didn't understand DDing or WDing (which is obviously not true), that would only make him think fox was worse than he actually is (because Fox's dashdance/wavedash game and mobility are what many people construe as his best features). Again, you guys are falling on personal attacks rather than responding to what is being said in the topic. It is ridiculous that this conversation has turned from a "fox has too many good things" to a "I bet reflex is just bad or doesn't understand the game he is developing" conversation. How about you can only make judgements of Reflex's understanding of the game if you can take a set off of hungrybox in a tournament.

1. I'm not a Fox main. I barely even play Fox in friendlies.
2. I've seen a lot of Reflex's footage because of how fascinating I find his gameplay to be (because he lacks any sort of core Melee spacing tools, but still ****s everyone up).
3. Not understanding DDWD would actually lead to people overestimating how good it is. Like with most tactics, when people don't understand how neutral spacing tools work, they seem broken and impossible to defeat. I could DDWD grab spam a newbie in Melee with Marth and convince them within a matter of matches that you can't beat DDWDing. It just looks broken when you don't know the deep intricacies that come along with it (manipulating space, threatening with options just by being positioned at a certain distance or in a certain "stance", etc). So yeah, if someone doesn't understand Fox's DD grab, they'll probably consider it broken.
4. Please indicate where I personally attacked anyone? Last time I checked, pointing out that someone doesn't utilize a specific set of tools in a video game doesn't constitute a personal attack.
5. If Reflex actually had to use DDing or WDing to beat Hbox, I wouldn't be making judgements about his ability to use them. I can't take a set off Hbox, but I can certainly utilize DDWDing better vs. Hbox than Reflex can (as well as any other mediocre Melee player). Like I've said multiple times, Reflex has just never had to utilize those tools because he plays barlw and P:M Wario. More power to him. As a Falco player, I've never had to utilize Float Cancelling, which is why I don't go around acting like I understand the intricacies of float cancelling aerials in the neutral game.

 

[leelue]

Weren't the small buffs to the high tiers made to help them out against the top tiers? In that case then why is it bad to bring everyone else to that level?

I don't understand the hostility here

Yea nothing should be set in stone, but I don't think they were better than Fox or Falco so I don't see the problem

Many of the small buffs were "makes sense" buffs. The most salient example is that captain falcon's forward b should have always grabbed the ledge so now it does. Peach's toad probably shouldn't have been as not-good as it was in the first place. Ganondorf's choke is awesome. Etc.

I'm hostile because I don't think anyone should have a right to just pick up and play a brand new game, throw rounds on purpose, and expect to win anyway.

I don't want to play a game where a character has every attack pretty much automatically lead into a grab. I don't care if the character is broken, that aspect of the character (your shield button doesn't exist) is objectively stupid.

Whether he gets good punishes off of his approaches is completely irrelevant to the point of his WD being good for approaching.

Taking this line out of the novella you wrote
This statement is clearly dumb as hell

 

[Vigilante]

Well... Reflex plays characters comparable to Jiggs, or a hybrid of Jiggs/Luigi in design, which basically feel like hybrids of Brawl/Melee characters in terms of playstyle. I'm not taking anything away from his achievements, but the basic playstyle of spacies as opposed to those characters are pretty much night and day. I on the other hand play virtually only fast fallers, with Falco and Roy in Melee for example. He mains characters I wouldn't touch with an eleven foot pole/don't enjoy fighting at all in pretty much every smash game. Plus, he plays a smash game I wouldn't ever consider playing and he finds it amusing. His idea of good design, balance and fun characters is obviously very different from mine, and while we argue a lot, I want to make it clear that at least from my part, there's no real underlying hostility. I'm just the kind of person who has strong opinions and likes a good debate.

What does bother me in general about this debate however is that a lot of individuals who are not really spacie players speak of them in a misinformed manner. While the intent is good, a lot of the proposed solutions are very emotion-driven, which is not the best way to treat any issue.

As for the M2K comment: We don't want any hostility here. People will learn soon enough that Project M isn't something you can just pick up and win at. They'll learn by losing... badly.

Edit: Also, everyone remember that we are all avid smashers. We are all driven to this game with an undying passion. This will have us argue and bicker at times, but we all ultimately want the same thing: Fun. So I'm not targetting anyone in particular, but keep things classy. We're all brothers

 

[Vashimus]

Every freaking time I play as a spacie (or fast characters in general), I get so overwhelmed by the speed, I get reckless and get myself killed. Frustrated, I then return to my floaties for comfort. I don't know how you Fox/Falco players can deal with it. lol