On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[The_NZA]

What does bother me in general about this debate however is that a lot of individuals who are not really spacie players speak of them in a misinformed manner. While the intent is good, a lot of the proposed solutions are very emotion-driven, which is not the best way to treat any issue.

I don't think this is fair. Everyone arguing against Fox has done so with more than just emotions: they have done it with frame data, facts, comparisons to other characters in the game. Meanwhile, people who have defended fox have mostly done it by saying "there is really difficult counterplay that works" and "they aren't broken".

If anything, you could say the fox defenders are being overtly emotional since many of the people showing their flaws have used facts while the defenders are basically saying "well...its always been this way. buff everyone else."

Still, the only comparison to Fox's usmash anyone has brought up is Pikachu's, when pikachu doesn't have close to the mobility as fox or leadins into his usmash. My opinion is no game in smash fits the criteria of a good killing move that is ultra fast, fairly safe (as safe as a smash can be), has leadins/can be comboed into, is not position dependent (it is equally good everywhere on the stage).

Reading a tech and punishing with fox's usmash is one of the easiest punishes to do in the game, imo.

 

[Vigilante]

Emotion on either side of the argument is bad to be honest. It's just that negative emotion tends to scream louder.

As for how people manage high speed characters, I think it's a matter of play style. A lot of players will have different skill sets, different affinities. Smash being a very varied game allows for more styles to co-exist. It just turns out some are very quick thinkers / have good reflexes, while others have better spacing sense, etc...

 

[Deleted member]

Yea nothing should be set in stone, but I don't think they were better than Fox or Falco so I don't see the problem

This. We never really got a chance to know if they were actually better than the space animals, or even up to their level.

Yes, I agree, there were some very stupid things in the designs of Ike and Lucario, and if the space animals didn't exist, I would be 100% behind the changes they received, but I believe that the space animals also have some stupid things in their designs that aren't going to be changed. Why do they get to be stupid but nobody else is allowed to be stupid?

To clarify, this is not a defense of 2.1 Ike or Lucario or stupid design in general. This is in defense of having all the characters be on an equal plane. That's why I support changes to Fox/Falco. I would rather have the ridiculous stuff toned down than to force everybody else to have ridiculous things, but if nobody is willing to tone them down, then I believe the next best option is to ramp it up for everybody else. And if that doesn't happen, then we're just playing favorites.

I hate double standards.

 

[leelue]

Yes, I agree, there were some very stupid things in the designs of Ike and Lucario, and if the space animals didn't exist, I would be 100% behind the changes they received, but I believe that the space animals also have some stupid things in their designs that aren't going to be changed. Why do they get to be stupid but nobody else is allowed to be stupid?

If you ask me, it'd be nice for the backroom to be able to take something back. They shouldn't feel like they have to release underpowered versions of characters and slowly ramp them up because of a fear of public retaliation when they inevitably give us a 2.1 lucario and wish they never did. I'd rather live in a world with Fox than in a world where the mentality is "welp, now we gotta buff everyone because of 3.0 DDD".

As for the M2K comment: We don't want any hostility here. People will learn soon enough that Project M isn't something you can just pick up and win at. They'll learn by losing... badly.

To my knowledge he's won every PM event he's ever been to, except for this sunday.
Even though my team knocked him into losers he was actually taken out by a fox/falco/marth/sheik team. Weighed down by his partner too, I imagine.
He did win singles though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, you've claimed before that WDing as an approach is too predictable, at which point I simply commented that WD approaches are much less predictable when you also include DDing as well. Whether he gets good punishes off of his approaches is completely irrelevant to the point of his WD being good for approaching even if all he had as an option out of it was a shield or grab (which isn't the case). I'm also not trying to make the discussion specifically about Squirtle's WD, since the major thing with Fox is his DD. In your very own post you admit that you don't really apply DD in any meaningful regard because you don't play anyone that poses enough of a threat to force you to DD well:

I can not stress this enough: I am not calling you bad. You've obviously proven yourself as a player, and I said as much in my original post. However, just because you are good at the game doesn't mean you understand every single concept to the fullest extent, especially concepts that you yourself have admitted are largely irrelevant to your main. As far as comparing my claim to the Apex videos, the very first result for "reflex wario" was THIS set vs. Okami in which you DDed, WDed, and WLed approximately 0 times... If you have any understanding of DDing or WDing in neutral, you are definitely not demonstrating it in your tournament sets. Obviously that understanding may still be there, but I have a hard time believing anyone who cannot properly utilize DDWD in neutral can truly understand it. Also keep in mind the only reason I'm questioning your experience with DDing and WDing is because the way you replied to Sveet makes it seem like you are greatly overestimating to what extent Fox is able to simply DD camp every character.

I mean, idc at this point. If you don't want to discuss your understanding of DDWD, then by all means ignore this post. I was mostly just trying to point out to Sveet that there may be an inherent disconnect when you have a Melee Fox player and barlw Wario player discussing the neutral game in P:M. Surely, even you can at least agree that the two different perspectives are bound to lead to disagreements because of the underlying principles encouraged in each game/character combination's neutral game. Even players with different mains in the same game have a tendency to view neutral drastically different, so players from entirely different games will obviously disagree on a lot of stuff.

1. I'm not a Fox main. I barely even play Fox in friendlies.
2. I've seen a lot of Reflex's footage because of how fascinating I find his gameplay to be (because he lacks any sort of core Melee spacing tools, but still ****s everyone up).
3. Not understanding DDWD would actually lead to people overestimating how good it is. Like with most tactics, when people don't understand how neutral spacing tools work, they seem broken and impossible to defeat. I could DDWD grab spam a newbie in Melee with Marth and convince them within a matter of matches that you can't beat DDWDing. It just looks broken when you don't know the deep intricacies that come along with it (manipulating space, threatening with options just by being positioned at a certain distance or in a certain "stance", etc). So yeah, if someone doesn't understand Fox's DD grab, they'll probably consider it broken.
4. Please indicate where I personally attacked anyone? Last time I checked, pointing out that someone doesn't utilize a specific set of tools in a video game doesn't constitute a personal attack.
5. If Reflex actually had to use DDing or WDing to beat Hbox, I wouldn't be making judgements about his ability to use them. I can't take a set off Hbox, but I can certainly utilize DDWDing better vs. Hbox than Reflex can (as well as any other mediocre Melee player). Like I've said multiple times, Reflex has just never had to utilize those tools because he plays barlw and P:M Wario. More power to him. As a Falco player, I've never had to utilize Float Cancelling, which is why I don't go around acting like I understand the intricacies of float cancelling aerials in the neutral game.

Again, you take my words out of context. Squirtle has what is one of the worst dashdances in the game, owing to the very short distance he covers without the animation length being very short, outright bad range on the moves he can use immediately out of it, and the limited amount of damage he is able to put on people from those options if they're (S)DI'ing correctly. As for your accusation toward my Wario play, all I see is a lack of understanding of how his moveset as a whole works. His incredible horizontal aerial mobility (his ability to weave and his general speed in the air) combined with his merely-okay dash speed makes going from a dash(dance) into weaving in the air pretty seamless, allowing those options to be interchangeable in many situations. Forward-B/Dash Grab mechanics allow him to create mix-ups with the move itself functioning as the "final" dash in a dashdance, shortening the number of actual dashes you see. The coverage and safety of his best tech chase moves (N-Air, D-Smash, Forward-B, DACUS) make it so that constant movement in a tech chase position isn't as important (though I still often weave in the air for it). These things should be very obvious to a Project M player who understands the metagame, but since you seem to be so keen on calling me out, I figure it couldn't hurt to give you a little primer so you stop making yourself look like a fool. Much like that, it is the distance and options that other things in his moveset give him that make certain matchups with an extreme mobility disparity pretty much impossible. You're welcome to disagree, but please give PM-specific examples for why you disagree, and don't just say "well, you don't understand what I understand" and leave it at that.

You could think I'm the worst player imaginable or the best player imaginable. I do not care what you think about my skill level (or my technical skill level), but your posts are implying that I lack understanding of Melee mechanics that I -do- understand, which is fine for -you- to think, but you are encouraging other people to dismiss my posts solely based on the fact that I feel the opportunities to wavedash to great effect with Wario and Squirtle are pretty limited (which obviously takes their entire movesets into consideration, rather than just the length, something you're clearly not getting), despite the fact that the content of my posts should make it clear that I very much understand the power and utility of mobility options in the game as a whole.

You're going at this with a seriously biased mindset of "since basically everyone had to utilize wavedashes for spacing in Melee, anything that doesn't use it obviously doesn't understand how Melee play works." The fact that you continue to refer to my apparent gameplay as "barlw-like" implies petty resentment and personal dislike of it, which doesn't belong in a discussion about my general understanding of the game (though repeated posts specifically made to decry my understanding of the game probably counts as flaming). The fact that I continue to win without much wavedash use means that I am still using wavedashing effectively (at the very least, effectively enough).

The point of it being a personal attack is accurate because instead of taking the points I'm making and explaining why I'm wrong, you're taking your personal judgments from elsewhere and using them as counterarguments without being able to actually argue against me. "Oh, I think one of the best players of this game doesn't have a good understanding of this game, so I'm just gonna keep saying that I think he doesn't understand what he's saying instead of thinking about whether or not what he's saying now is correct or not." That's what you're doing, and that's what you should stop.

 

[trash?]

If the one point that's being argued here is "spacies aren't overpowered because you're actually a bad player!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", then we might as well pack it up now, because any resemblance of a reasonable argument was apparently thrown out the window a long, long time ago.

 

[The_NZA]

I think we could do with this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzbLYYnAsFI

Thank you for the reenactment, reflex.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Reflex, you really need to stop taking every argument personal. Bones' description of your style is pretty accurate and he meant not to offend you. Its not the mechanics themselves as much as the game theory that goes behind them. When he says your style is "barlw-like", why are you offended? That is your smash background, is it not? He was simply pointing out that your game theories originate from there and that some of the melee specific theories haven't sunk in yet. I have the same problem in reverse, I come from melee but I don't understand everything about the brawl characters or the additional mechanics they add to the game. There is a reason I don't have a thread about how broken Wario or Diddy are even tho Vro makes them look so damn broke when we play.


And on the topic, it makes perfect sense that M2K is amazing at P:M. He was one of the best in the world at both Brawl and Melee. I don't know many people who kept up in both brawl and melee, but from what I know they are all pretty gahlike (Scythe, Oro, Arty, Metroid*, etc)

 

[trash?]

Reflex, you really need to stop taking every argument personal.

You're still trying to use someone being a bad player at something to justify spacies not being broken.

There's really no way around that. You've given up on any reasonable discussion about the character, and you're instead saying that they aren't broken because the best god damn P:M player right now doesn't understand the game as much as the god-given-talents of the spacie players.

That's kind of sad, I'll be honest. I want actual discussions, please give me actual discussion.

 

[Vigilante]

M2K has lost several Project M events to my knowledge actually. He's still a pretty good player, but he lacks the understanding of several matchups in this game.

Other than that, I think it's kind of early to call someone the best Project M player. The game hasn't been fully balanced yet, and PMBR members have the benefit of being able to practice / have privileged access to character data on new builds for months before everyone else. I've defeated better players due to having better matchup knowledge, and didn't really feel like I truly deserved the victory.

 

[The_NZA]

@Sveet, you and bones are saying Reflex isn't entitled to an opinion because he must not understand melee mechanics and mind set. How is that a. not personal, and b. not fallacious. Why dont you tell Hungrybox he doesn't understand melee mechanics, just because he plays a floatie that does not rely on a ground game like fox? It's a stupid assumption that is highly patronizing. It implies just because a player uses a certain character and you've seen a video, you must know all about that player's skill set. If reflex is playing wario optimally, then how could you ever speak to the full extent of what reflex must not understand with surety? Did it ever occur to you that Reflex might be playing Wario optimally BUT he also has a working knowledge of how bnb melee mechanics work?

Based on that assumption, I could exclude you and bones from the conversation by saying "well, you guys play spacies so you have no idea what its like to be Ness playing against spacies. That makes me question your understanding of the mechanics of the matchup and therefore all of my opinions are valid and none of yours are. PS: Don't take it personally"

M2K has lost several Project M events to my knowledge actually. He's still a pretty good player, but he lacks the understanding of several matchups in this game.

Other than that, I think it's kind of early to call someone the best Project M player. The game hasn't been fully balanced yet, and PMBR members have the benefit of being able to practice / have privileged access to character data on new builds for months before everyone else. I've defeated better players due to having better matchup knowledge, and didn't really feel like I truly deserved the victory.

Vig, while I agree with your sentiments, this isnt a topic to decipher who the best PM player is and who is better than M2k. Notice that Reflex isn't trying to prove he is the best in this topic. The topic is about fox/falco, and Sveet and his compadres are being inept at making real arguments outside of saying "Reflex doesn't understand melee mechanics and plays like Brawl and therefore isn't entitled to an opinion". That's not really even a true statement...the only people who play like melee are the ones that dont play PM and just come over for a quick cash in (M2k). Players like Reflex are distinctively playing a "PM style" since I don't even think a brawl style could survive in PM (the game is way more melee than brawl).

 

[Vigilante]

Just responding to them. But to bring this back to the topic at hand, why Fox and Falco? There are tons of more problematic characters in Melee like Jiggs and Peach, which are not only amazingly good, but actually elongate match lenghts, use silly hit and run tactics and piss everyone off "except" those who play them. It seems to me that these two characters (Fox/Falco) are the least bothersome of the higher tiers. I may be biased due to maining Roy in Melee (fast faller), but I have nothing but deep affection for spacies.

I can still see that they are not entirely fairly balanced (in Melee) of course.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex, you really need to stop taking every argument personal. Bones' description of your style is pretty accurate and he meant not to offend you. Its not the mechanics themselves as much as the game theory that goes behind them. When he says your style is "barlw-like", why are you offended? That is your smash background, is it not? He was simply pointing out that your game theories originate from there and that some of the melee specific theories haven't sunk in yet. I have the same problem in reverse, I come from melee but I don't understand everything about the brawl characters or the additional mechanics they add to the game. There is a reason I don't have a thread about how broken Wario or Diddy are even tho Vro makes them look so damn broke when we play.

And on the topic, it makes perfect sense that M2K is amazing at P:M. He was one of the best in the world at both Brawl and Melee. I don't know many people who kept up in both brawl and melee, but from what I know they are all pretty gahlike (Scythe, Oro, Arty, Metroid*, etc)

I played competitive Melee for a little over three years before switching over to Brawl and was a rather solid player who made good use of the things in question. Ask any of the Southeast players of the time (-Chad-, Rice, Iori, Moogle, j00t, XiF, Fullmetal, Chaddd, GAWes, Mike G, SleepyK) and they'll tell you the same thing. As players who don't have an extensive background in both Melee and Brawl (as far as I'm aware, and as far as this conversation as suggested), neither you nor Bones can make a reasonable judgment of "where a certain style comes from" based on a handful of videos where I'm clearly outplaying my opponents. I use what works, and that should be good enough for anyone, especially if it's winning matches. I've been very much invested in all three Smash games, and I don't need someone who doesn't know anything about me or my Smash background to make sweeping generalizations about those things.

I'm not insulted or looking for special treatment; I just want my arguments to be taken into as much consideration as any knowledgeable, experienced individual would. The entire reason this conversation has started is because people are ignoring my arguments by saying I'm not qualified to speak on things because I don't understand them, which is beyond ludicrous in this case.

 

[Rayku]

I have personally never defeated Reflex's Bowser in Melee

 

[leelue]

Wait, is this the same Bones that has a kind of logic named after him?

 

[Bones0]

You're still trying to use someone being a bad player at something to justify spacies not being broken.

There's really no way around that. You've given up on any reasonable discussion about the character, and you're instead saying that they aren't broken because the best god damn P:M player right now doesn't understand the game as much as the god-given-talents of the spacie players.

That's kind of sad, I'll be honest. I want actual discussions, please give me actual discussion.

No, I'm just explaining to Sveet that he's arguing with people that don't have a full understanding of how Fox wins in neutral. It's not just Reflex. I've seen plenty of players post dumb stuff like Fox can just run away and laser all game when in reality, that's never worked and never will. I don't feel compelled to explain to people why spacies aren't broken because it's obvious to anyone who isn't an absolute sheep. I deal with this same **** in the Melee Tier List thread.

@Sveet, you and bones are saying Reflex isn't entitled to an opinion because he must not understand melee mechanics and mind set. How is that a. not personal, and b. not fallacious. Why dont you tell Hungrybox he doesn't understand melee mechanics, just because he plays a floatie that does not rely on a ground game like fox? It's a stupid assumption that is highly patronizing. It implies just because a player uses a certain character and you've seen a video, you must know all about that player's skill set. If reflex is playing wario optimally, then how could you ever speak to the full extent of what reflex must not understand with surety? Did it ever occur to you that Reflex might be playing Wario optimally BUT he also has a working knowledge of how bnb melee mechanics work?

Based on that assumption, I could exclude you and bones from the conversation by saying "well, you guys play spacies so you have no idea what its like to be Ness playing against spacies. That makes me question your understanding of the mechanics of the matchup and therefore all of my opinions are valid and none of yours are. PS: Don't take it personally"

It's not personal because it's specifically about his gameplay. I'm not in anyway degrading his intelligence to say that he doesn't fully understand a concept he doesn't even practice. I even made a parallel example showing how I can not claim a full understanding of how floating works because I never play Peach, not even friendlies or anything.

Hbox's ground movement is amazing. He's an absolute WD fiend and has some of the fastest movements which is even more amazing considering how slow Puff is on the ground. Go watch some of his games and tell me he doesn't know how to utilize those tools. Reflex doesn't utilize those tools (FACT), so I doubt his understanding of the associating concepts. Obviously just not using tools doesn't necessarily mean you don't understand something, but his posts (along with a lot of others in this thread) imply that he doesn't grasp what Fox DDing in neutral entails. It's a combination of the two.

I mained Ness for years.

Just responding to them. But to bring this back to the topic at hand, why Fox and Falco? There are tons of more problematic characters in Melee like Jiggs and Peach, which are not only amazingly good, but actually elongate match lenghts, use silly hit and run tactics and piss everyone off "except" those who play them. It seems to me that these two characters (Fox/Falco) are the least bothersome of the higher tiers. I may be biased due to maining Roy in Melee (fast faller), but I have nothing but deep affection for spacies.


I can still see that they are not entirely fairly balanced (in Melee) of course.

Peach and Jiggs don't rely on hit and run tactics... Also, who cares if they elongate matches? Not all matches should be 2 minute spacie battles. Melee is plenty balanced though. Just check the results.

I played competitive Melee for a little over three years before switching over to Brawl and was a rather solid player who made good use of the things in question. Ask any of the Southeast players of the time (-Chad-, Rice, Iori, Moogle, j00t, XiF, Fullmetal, Chaddd, GAWes, Mike G, SleepyK) and they'll tell you the same thing. As players who don't have an extensive background in both Melee and Brawl (as far as I'm aware, and as far as this conversation as suggested), neither you nor Bones can make a reasonable judgment of "where a certain style comes from" based on a handful of videos where I'm clearly outplaying my opponents. I use what works, and that should be good enough for anyone, especially if it's winning matches. I've been very much invested in all three Smash games, and I don't need someone who doesn't know anything about me or my Smash background to make sweeping generalizations about those things.

I'm not insulted or looking for special treatment; I just want my arguments to be taken into as much consideration as any knowledgeable, experienced individual would. The entire reason this conversation has started is because people are ignoring my arguments by saying I'm not qualified to speak on things because I don't understand them, which is beyond ludicrous in this case.

You're missing the point. I'm not criticizing how you play. Wario could very well be played best without WDs or DDing. That doesn't change the fact that you won't need to understand those concepts as well as players who use those tactics every day. I can watch PP and M2K, and it is immediately apparent that they know what they're doing with DDing and WDing in neutral. I can't say the same for you (for whatever reason), so when I read a post about Fox's neutral game from you that makes no sense, it makes sense that it would be because of your lack of experience with the tactic. If there was even a single video of you utilizing DDing and WDing, I wouldn't have an explanation for why I disagree with your posts, but I'd still disagree with them.

 

[trash?]

No, I'm just explaining to Sveet that he's arguing with people that don't have a full understanding of how Fox wins in neutral.

You reworded exactly what I just said so it doesn't sound as idiotic as it is.

Quit the strawmen, nobody's wanting to deal with you, especially if you try to decry anyone who disagrees as "sheep".

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, I'm just explaining to Sveet that he's arguing with people that don't have a full understanding of how Fox wins in neutral. It's not just Reflex. I've seen plenty of players post dumb stuff like Fox can just run away and laser all game when in reality, that's never worked and never will. I don't feel compelled to explain to people why spacies aren't broken because it's obvious to anyone who isn't an absolute sheep. I deal with this same **** in the Melee Tier List thread.

You are impossible to get through to, you (not a general "you," but you specifically) only pay attention to the things you want to see, and I am certain I have made my point to everyone else by now. Please leave it as it is; let's stop derailing this thread.

 

[Strong Badam]

After reading this page of this thread I am embarrassed to be considered a part of the same community that Bones and Sveet are. I apologize on their behalf, Reflex. It's been literally years since I've seen more toxic argumentation, and I'm all the more impressed by your infinite patience in dealing with them.

 

[Player-1]

Wait, is this the same Bones that has a kind of logic named after him?

IDK, what Bones logic is, but after reading the last page I'd guess it'd be if you don't agree with Bones then you don't understand what you're talking about.

 

[ELI-mination]

Nah you can call someone the best P:M player, and that person is me.

 

[leelue]

Likestravaganzzzza

 

[Bones0]

I like how everyone just acts all distraught over my posts instead of trying to actually address them. lol You can consider my point toxic all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that my criticism is valid. If someone doesn't actively apply DDing and WDing, they aren't going to understand it as well as people who do. If anyone disagrees and believes Reflex does understand those concepts despite virtually never using them, then cool, that's your opinion. I'm just explaining why I think there is a general disagreement. I can't believe people get so butthurt over any differing opinion about a video game.

 

[ELI-mination]

And now we've entered the "come on its just a video game" phase

 

[trash?]

And you haven't ever addressed anything other than that, because you refuse to acknowledge any basic mechanics that would give the idea of "hey, maybe having moves start on a single frame isn't the smartest idea", instead choosing to actively say "well it's bad because you don't understand this game you're one of the best at as much as I do!!!!!!!".

Grow up, kiddo. We don't intend to play melee, we intend to play melee 2.0.

 

[Vigilante]

Well... to be fair, I don't see how Bones has crossed any line except disagreeing with Reflex... which is no crime. Sveet on the other hand discredits himself by responding to Reflex in a fairly abrasive manner. I'm sure his points would be inspected with more scrutiny if brought in a different manner.

Like I stated earlier, everyone is allowed to have a different opinion, but let's keep it classy.

 

[leelue]

If someone doesn't actively apply DDing and WDing, they aren't going to understand it as well as people who do.

Alternative hypothesis: The fact that he's winning big tournaments without using these shows that he knows that he doesn't need them for his character, rather than using them "because melee".

 

[Vashimus]

Guys, I'd hate to get caught in the middle, but don't you think you're all exaggerating just a tad? It's not like Reflex is getting cursed out or something.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Alternative hypothesis: The fact that he's winning big tournaments without using these shows that he knows that he doesn't need them for his character, rather than using them "because melee".

But I do use them in matches where the situation requires them.

That said, the need for them isn't as important on average, sure.

 

[leelue]

Ok
"without using these things all willy nilly"

 

[trash?]

In sincerity: assuming Reflex is actually the johnest john to ever john and that makes you right... what now? What does that do to help your argument, in this position? Reflex is only one of the many, many good players supporting this idea, wherein a good chunk of the players in question came from melee, where WD and DD are big deals. Or are you going to tell me those players aren't as understanding as you are, too?

This argument means nothing. You're trying to section off a single person and shut them down, nothing more.

 

[The_NZA]

The thing is Bones is playing into that BS as well because he is assuming Reflex doesn't know these concepts as well as him, just because he hasn't seen Reflex use fox . For all he knows, Reflex has a pocket fox/falco/character that wavedashes a lot, and he just doesn't play in tourneys with them. FURTHERMORE, you don't have to use techniques to know how they are used and what they do for a character's game. Nothing Reflex has said implies he has anything less than a good understanding of "fox's neutral game". Bones is asserting Reflex has no understanding of Fox's neutral game. If Reflex really didn't know how good Dashdancing is, the only result of him playing fox would be realizing how much MORE amazing Fox is than he initially thought.

On what basis is Bones making that argument? On what basis is bones saying that Reflex (and the rest of us) have no idea about how Fox works? The basis he is using is that he's seen Reflex play wario and wario doesn't need to dashdance that well...that's really no basis at all.

Furthermore both Bones and Sveet want to treat us like we have never played the same ****ing game as them, without actually pointing out which of our accusations are false. Instead, their argumentative method is brain dead, relying on putting up strawmen and knocking them down.

For example. I said "Fox's reliable usmash makes his opponents easy to kill at low percentages, essentially putting a percent clock on every character, reducing their life expectancy by 20% from where it would normally be. At 80-85%, much of the medium-lightweight class is killable. This means, Fox lasering from a distance for 20-25% of damage (not a difficult task) does a quarter of the work he needs."

Sveet responds: "LOL YOU THINK FOX CAN JUST LASER SPAM ALL DAY FROM A DISTANCE AND RUN AWAY AND LASER SPAM MORE. OK YOU DONT GET FOX" {this is the strawman}

Bones says: "I think you guys don't understand fox cause you guys dont play fox" {this is legitimizing the strawman}

All of PM says: "you guys are impossible to talk to, and pretty braindead"

Bones says: "butt hurt learn fox butt hurt"

 

[Bones0]

Alternative hypothesis: The fact that he's winning big tournaments without using these shows that he knows that he doesn't need them for his character, rather than using them "because melee".

I agree that he knows that he doesn't need them. Like I've said, kudos to him for not needing those techniques with his character. He's obviously prioritized his learning appropriately in order to win. I'm not criticizing his gameplay. I'm simply questioning his understanding of techniques that he doesn't use, whether he needs them or not. If a Fox player can win nationals without lasers, then awesome bro. Doesn't change the fact that this hypothetical Fox player would probably not understand how to use lasers with Falco, a character who needs them.

 

[The_NZA]

Bones, what is your ****ing point. You don't really make sense. What part of Reflex's neutral game observation do you disagree with that you find the need to state "you just don't know what you are talking about" rather than addressing his actual point.

 

[GP&B]

Except Reflex has explained that he played Melee for three years and has made good use of those techniques. His choice to not use them as Wario has been thoroughly explained with the reasoning that they are by and large obsolete to his incredible aerial mobility. I hate speaking for others but Reflex has experience with it as he's stated. Your laser comparison is really not even remotely the same.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I agree that he knows that he doesn't need them. Like I've said, kudos to him for not needing those techniques with his character. He's obviously prioritized his learning appropriately in order to win. I'm not criticizing his gameplay. I'm simply questioning his understanding of techniques that he doesn't use, whether he needs them or not. If a Fox player can win nationals without lasers, then awesome bro. Doesn't change the fact that this hypothetical Fox player would probably not understand how to use lasers with Falco, a character who needs them.

There's a really good chance that someone winning nationals in the first place understands an integral part of a top tier character's metagame (in your example, Falco's lasers). How does not lasering with Fox have any bearing -at all- on what he knows about other characters?

 

[Vigilante]

To be perfectly fair, some characters indeed have less use for Wavedashing, or use them in more... situational cases. You can't really use a technique you don't need (at least in the situation it presents itself as useless). That would be counter-productive.

 

[ELI-mination]

I can beat 100% of the people posting in this thread with my Fox that I don't main, all my opinions are therefore fact

Isn't that how it goes

 

[Vashimus]

NZA, down boy.

I want to be fair here. I want you to look back and find the exact quote where Bones said Reflex knows NOTHING about how Fox's neutral game works. He's merely saying that since Sveet and him are playing two different characters (Fox and ... Not Fox), they're going to have different opinions on it and will butt head often. Bones said himself repeatedly he doesn't think Reflex a bad player, but that he wouldn't take Reflex's advice on a subject like that. That's simply his opinion, he's free to think that. Just leave it.

 

[Bones0]

In sincerity: assuming Reflex is actually the johnest john to ever john and that makes you right... what now? What does that do to help your argument, in this position? Reflex is only one of the many, many good players supporting this idea, wherein a good chunk of the players in question came from melee, where WD and DD are big deals. Or are you going to tell me those players aren't as understanding as you are, too?

This argument means nothing. You're trying to section off a single person and shut them down, nothing more.

I wasn't trying to prove that Fox is good by saying Reflex doesn't utilize DDing or WDing. I was simply TELLING SVEET that he was arguing against people who probably don't understand the concepts in the same way he does. If I thought it was going to turn into a giant ****storm with people acting like I called someone a communist, I would have just PMed him.

The thing is Bones is playing into that BS as well because he is assuming Reflex doesn't know these concepts as well as him, just because he hasn't seen Reflex use fox . For all he knows, Reflex has a pocket fox/falco/character that wavedashes a lot, and he just doesn't play in tourneys with them. FURTHERMORE, you don't have to use techniques to know how they are used and what they do for a character's game. Nothing Reflex has said implies he has anything less than a good understanding of "fox's neutral game". Bones is asserting Reflex has no understanding of Fox's neutral game. If Reflex really didn't know how good Dashdancing is, the only result of him playing fox would be realizing how much MORE amazing Fox is than he initially thought.

On what basis is Bones making that argument? On what basis is bones saying that Reflex (and the rest of us) have no idea about how Fox works? The basis he is using is that he's seen Reflex play wario and wario doesn't need to dashdance that well...that's really no basis at all.

Furthermore both Bones and Sveet want to treat us like we have never played the same ****ing game as them, without actually pointing out which of our accusations are false. Instead, their argumentative method is brain dead, relying on putting up strawmen and knocking them down.

For example. I said "Fox's reliable usmash makes his opponents easy to kill at low percentages, essentially putting a percent clock on every character, reducing their life expectancy by 20% from where it would normally be. At 80-85%, much of the medium-lightweight class is killable. This means, Fox lasering from a distance for 20-25% of damage (not a difficult task) does a quarter of the work he needs."

Sveet responds: "LOL YOU THINK FOX CAN JUST LASER SPAM ALL DAY FROM A DISTANCE AND RUN AWAY AND LASER SPAM MORE. OK YOU DONT GET FOX" {this is the strawman}

Bones says: "I think you guys don't understand fox cause you guys dont play fox" {this is legitimizing the strawman}

All of PM says: "you guys are impossible to talk to, and pretty braindead"

Bones says: "butt hurt learn fox butt hurt"

I already addressed your first point about not understanding DDing. People who don't understand a concept usually overvalue it.

I've seen Reflex play characters other than Wario, and he still doesn't DDWD, and he's even admitted that he doesn't feel he has to DD because his opponents are not good enough to beat him without WDing.

When you say stuff like Fox can laser for 20-25% and that it's not even difficult, I know for sure that you don't know WTF you are talking about. That kind of lasering has probably never occurred in the history of Smash on any consistent basis, and certainly not at high level. If it has happened, it certainly was not EASY. That is the most absurd claim I've ever heard. If it's so damn easy to run away and laser for 20%+ every stock, why have I never seen anyone do it? Ever? It's hard as ****, and even when the best players are doing it on the best stages for laser camping, it almost never amounts to 20% damage. Don't even get me started on your claim that medium-lightweight characters die at 80-85%. I can objectively disprove all your points just by looking at videos of high level players. No understanding is even required to disprove your claims; that's how far off of reality they are.