On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[B.W.]

This whole thread really just goes in circles.

At this point one group goes "but who beats spacies?"

But the other groups only reply since it started is "who doesn't beat spacies?"

 

[Nausicaa]

The 'improved' recovery things have been severely overlooked for characters like Falcon (Side-B), Peach (Ledge-Jump > Float) and Pikachu (no lag and QAC otherwise).
It's like Sheik having no lag after her Up-B, or Marth getting a quick horizontal burst 'illusion' style, or... Yoshi suddenly being able to WD OOS.
That stuff is mega-buffs all around, and isn't given nearly enough credit.

On topic... I'm glad someone said Fox has a great character design. It's about time someone put that so bluntly. SOME character is required to function that way, it happens to be Fox, and Fox happens to do it well to a point where it's almost the ideal amount of 'goodness' without breaking something/being too bad to function with other 'ideal-environment and tweaked' characters.

 

[JOE!]

Right, he does have a great design, which is why he is the best.

The problem now is either if that design is too good compared to the rest of the roster to the point of it standing out a bit much, or if it is an issue of the entire rest of the roster (save like falco) beign badly designed compared to him and needing tools like Fox has?

The latter I fear would lead to homogenization in key areas that would either be to counter spaces specifically, or make other characters like them. Both are rather unideal which is why I'm in favor of looking at Fox/Falco themselves as an issue.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Use a phone, other computer, etc, etc.

that defeats the purpose...

I'm not saying I want a game where a character *doesnt* have an answer, I'm saying Fox always has an answer that is just as good as or better, meaning only specific cases where players can really punish him are when the fox messes up.

Fox *has* to have something he can do in every situation or his entire character design would fall apart. That isn't the same as he always wins every encounter. You can easily out think the opponent fox and land a hit. For example, many characters can simply grab him through his nair. If he goes above you, use an anti-air. Many characters already have the tools to beat him (some characters win the match-up IMO), I dont see the point nerfing fox when the problem is the bad characters need to be buffed.

Also, when you said "noting each match-up wont do anything", it most certainly would:

That wasn't what I said, plus it is taken completely out of context.

Say going over each match up shows that he really only goes neutral with like, Falco, Shiek and Peach, and beats everyone else in much the same manner. Even though not technically broken as he does have 3 even MU's, if he is a leg up on the remaining cast due to a few traits or a certain strategy, would that not raise an eyebrow?

Not really. The top tiers in any game tend to have even-ish match ups with the other top tiers and then the top tiers generally beat the mid tiers and the mid tiers generally beat the low tiers. Oh yeah, and fox has more than 3 even match-ups and I would argue there are a few characters he loses to.

 

[JOE!]

So, top tiers are only balanced vs other tops?

Also, it seems like those foxes should just get better is they are getting anti-aired, etc.

 

[Bones0]

Right, he does have a great design, which is why he is the best.

The problem now is either if that design is too good compared to the rest of the roster to the point of it standing out a bit much, or if it is an issue of the entire rest of the roster (save like falco) beign badly designed compared to him and needing tools like Fox has?

The latter I fear would lead to homogenization in key areas that would either be to counter spaces specifically, or make other characters like them. Both are rather unideal which is why I'm in favor of looking at Fox/Falco themselves as an issue.

Having a good design is different than being good in competition. I think Squirtle has a good design, but he isn't that good. Similarly, just because a character is really good doesn't mean their design is good.

 

[JOE!]

Indeed, Fox however -does- have a great design overall for what it takes to be good in Smash Bros. A few moves here and there however push that greatness a step too far in my opinion though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Squirtle has a terrible design wtf. Would that he were actually good he'd be comparable to Sonic levels of obnoxiousness.

 

[JayMan-X]

Squirtle doesn't have a bad design at all. If feels like he is meant great mixup/techchase character with really good Mobility overall with an extremely dangerous Gimping game. One problem is that he doesn't get a lot of reward for successful techchasing with all these cool shellshift/withdraw options he has, and its mainly stems from having really below average throws. His grab followups seem really inconsistent, with things like Down Throw not always killing until after 110+ percents on average weight chars. A few other things like his upair not being the most combo friendly move and his bad range and damage really keep him from being as great as he could be.

Still don't understand the hate on Fox and Falco though -_-
Surprised there's no Sonic hate thread yet

 

[JOE!]

There is no sonic hate thread because we don't expect him to be "golden and untouchable" enough to garner discussion.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The PMBR also already know Sonic is stupid and, as mentioned very subject to change.

And don't fault me if squirtle ends up buffed and stupid.

 

[JayMan-X]

There is no sonic hate thread because we don't expect him to be "golden and untouchable" enough to garner discussion.

Every B Move he has can be ridiculously safe except neutral B "Homing Attack" and even then, u can do Blast Attack instead -_-. Not to mention his recovery is bonkers.

I can go on all day about Sonic things that shouldn't be.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There are definitely things that can be done about lasers. I haven't seen those matches and I can't access youtube, but its probably the players' fault. I remember people used to say thats all fox had to do against puff and other slow characters in melee because thats all m2k would do and he would 3-4stock people, but then people realized how to properly deal with it.

I can pretty much guarantee you that a smart Fox can make it so that characters with an extreme mobility disadvantage literally cannot catch him without multiple hard reads at once, and in that case, they still don't get anything substantial. You're welcome to be skeptical, but that wouldn't make you any less likely to be wrong about that.

It's actually probably the single most objectively reasonable thing suggested to make a change for. Mobility disparity is soooooooo good/bad when combined with a projectile that cannot be dealt with.

But you said it's the worst projectile in the game, and that implies that you feel it isn't an important part of his gameplay feel. In a hypothetical scenario, if it were changed in a way to make it so that they're clankable or something, would it leave a bad taste in your mouth? How would that change Fox's general gameplan, in your opinion?

 

[Deleted member]

There is no sonic hate thread because we don't expect him to be "golden and untouchable" enough to garner discussion.

Exactly. The problem is they're currently untouchable. Nobody wants to bring them down a notch, but any character that might be given the tools to bring them up to their level will most likely be changed, i.e. nerfed. Everybody complained about Ike and Lucario, and they received changes. Everybody is complaining about Sonic, and he is almost certainly going to see changes. They have things that people consider(ed) ridiculous, and yet I'm positive that if Fox/Falco were brand new characters, they would also be branded just as, if not more, ridiculous. It's a double standard. I'd be okay if all other characters were brought up to around their level, but with the way things are going, it's not going to happen because everybody complains as soon as a character is deemed too good even though nobody is entirely sure if said character was even as good as the space animals in the first place. Basically, instead of being standards for what other characters should be, they're an example of what other characters aren't allowed to be.

But anyway, yeah, these arguments are going in circles. Obviously one side isn't going to convince the other, so we might as well just end the discussion.

 

[BTmoney]

Exactly. The problem is they're currently untouchable.

But anyway, yeah, these arguments are going in circles. Obviously one side isn't going to convince the other, so we might as well just end the discussion.

No and yes

 

[Deleted member]

No, they're not untouchable?

 

[JayMan-X]

Exactly. The problem is they're currently untouchable. Nobody wants to bring them down a notch, but any character that might be given the tools to bring them up to their level will most likely be changed, i.e. nerfed. Everybody complained about Ike and Lucario, and they received changes. Everybody is complaining about Sonic, and he is almost certainly going to see changes. They have things that people consider(ed) ridiculous, and yet I'm positive that if Fox/Falco were brand new characters, they would also be branded just as, if not more, ridiculous. It's a double standard. I'd be okay if all other characters were brought up to around their level, but with the way things are going, it's not going to happen because everybody complains as soon as a character is deemed too good even though nobody is entirely sure if said character was even as good as the space animals in the first place. Basically, instead of being standards for what other characters should be, they're an example of what other characters aren't allowed to be.

But anyway, yeah, these arguments are going in circles. Obviously one side isn't going to convince the other, so we might as well just end the discussion.

But I feel like Ike is definitely still good. Before his killing power and range on fair along with Quickdraw shenanigans made him way too overpowering combined with his really hard to edgeguard recovery.
Lucario probably did recieve a pretty hard nerf with DownB and sideB, but something with him needed tweeking bcuz he had really annoying and easy things he could do with OHC.

Sonic is going through a similar phase because his Onstage game is really safe and annoying (hes a rolling hitbox that can convert spare hits into kills) and when he does get hit, he has a lot of tools, like a phenomonal recovery that safes him countless times. I think all that Sonic needs is a few tweeks to his B moves (recovery, side B shouldnt give him height, down B shouldnt clang with a lot of moves) and hell be perfectly acceptable. Hopefully the PMBR doesnt complete nerf/change him because i dont think he needs that much.

If Fox and Falco were new characters, Yea they might get a few nerfs, but honestly the nerfs they would get probably wouldnt be all that great. Toning down the knockback on Fox's upsmash is acceptable. Falco i dont really know, but... Doing much to either of them would hurt.

Spacies don't deserve nerf hammers because they are very glass cannon-esque. They wreck shop when used correctly but get wrecked. In Ike's case, hes not a glass cannon at all, he just hits you with a giant ass sword and kills you. If he winds up off stage, he can recovery with his hard to edge guard UpB. Hes not technically taxing to play, and was kinda easy to cheese with.

Edit: plus im sure other ppl have said this; Its too late in the game to nerf spacies, people know how to play versus them already, and its a much better idea to raise everyone else in the game close to Spacie level rather than nerfing Spacies down to them.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ike was in no way overpowering but was definitely poorly designed. His design is better now for the most, side B aside. The PMBR look to design aspect changes first and foremost long before balance changes.

 

[JayMan-X]

Ike was in no way overpowering but was definitely poorly designed. His design is better now for the most, side B aside. The PMBR look to design aspect changes first and foremost long before balance changes.

I dont know... having Ganondorf fair power and range with extra mobility is kinda scary.

 

[The_NZA]

umm his projectile does 3% if it isn't stale and it has NO STUN. No other projectile in any smashbros game has absolutely no stun besides fox's laser (i guess maybe those water guns in brawl, but im not sure). I'm not sure if you realize how bad that really is. Sure you can run away and shoot a laser, but you can't telegraph it because using it puts you at a severe disadvantage; they can just run towards you, take the 3% and then combo you to death.

And no, his recovery is actually pretty awful relative to the P:M cast. Simply being a fast faller is a liability in P:M. Now take into consideration that the length of his upb isn't very special; in melee it was very long, but theres recoveries like diddy's that totally outshine fox's. I would make a list of characters that have better recoveries than him, but its easier to just make a list of worse ones: Falco, Rob and Squirtile. Ness, Ganon and sheik are probably in a similar tier with fox in terms of relative ease to exploit and lack of overall range, but they all have better weight and floatiness properties.

Dude, you need to stop. I've had Fox kill me when I was at 80% today on FD when I was Ness. Most fox players, I bet, have relative ideas of what percentage they need to get their opponents before they should go for an usmash––given against most enemies that percentage is sub90% (Ness is a midweight), being able to run away real fast and SHL 20% in is effectively doing 25% of the total damage you need to do in a stock before their in kill range. That makes it NOT a bad projectile––stun or no stun.

On Fox's recovery.... with a hella fast forward b, great up b angles and priority, wall jumping, and INSANE distance. If you can recover when you can't even see your character on Final D, then you have a first class recovery. Anyone arguing otherwise is full of ****.

 

[Bones0]

If you're dying at 80% on any consistent basis and you're not Puff, you are just DIing horribly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I can pretty much guarantee you that a smart Fox can make it so that characters with an extreme mobility disadvantage literally cannot catch him without multiple hard reads at once, and in that case, they still don't get anything substantial. You're welcome to be skeptical, but that wouldn't make you any less likely to be wrong about that.

I don't even know where to start here........

I don't know what "multiple hard reads at once" means, are you counting each controller input as a separate "hard read"?

And whats this about not getting "anything substantial"? If you land a solid hit on fox with any character, you have the potential to at least convert into a good amount of damage plus an edgeguard, which can lead to death if you execute properly.

Not to mention, you don't have to "catch" fox. If he runs away, simply take stage control and zone him out. If you are trying to actually catch fox, you are going about it all wrong. For example, watch how Armada handles the fox match-up. Fox has a severe mobility advantage over Peach and Armada has plenty of experience against extremely campy fox players (hint: he still wins).

It's actually probably the single most objectively reasonable thing suggested to make a change for. Mobility disparity is soooooooo good/bad when combined with a projectile that cannot be dealt with.

Luckily fox has the worst projectile in the game.

And yes, you can deal with it LOL. Have you ever played against falco before?

But you said it's the worst projectile in the game, and that implies that you feel it isn't an important part of his gameplay feel.

Is that all anyone does in this thread? Read me say one thing then fail at making logical leap? It is the worst projectile in the game =/= it has no use.

In a hypothetical scenario, if it were changed in a way to make it so that they're clankable or something, would it leave a bad taste in your mouth? How would that change Fox's general gameplan, in your opinion?

Umm why would that matter at all? I mean, you can already just jump over them or shield them or just man up and take them (and take the advantage it gives you). If they clanked, it would actually probably be a little buff since if you clank, you receive hitlag while fox wouldn't.





BONES THANK GOD YOU'RE HERE. THE FOX IGNORANCE IN THIS THREAD WAS GETTING UNREASONABLE

 

[leelue]

This whole thread really just goes in circles.

I blame the other side q=

It's actually probably the single most objectively reasonable thing suggested to make a change for. Mobility disparity is soooooooo good/bad when combined with a projectile that cannot be dealt with.

Like, 1,000 times

Ike was in no way overpowering but was definitely poorly designed. His design is better now for the most, side B aside. The PMBR look to design aspect changes first and foremost long before balance changes.

"Options: The move"
Yeah I don't care for this attack tbh.

Oh yeah, sometimes I forget he exists; nobody plays him lol. Falcon does have some amazing aerial mobility and weight going for him, not to mention a better upb and a sideb too. Hes probably in the same tier as fox atm.

Same Recovery tier?

 

[SunJester]

This week on "On the Subject of Fox/Falco hate"

Spacey mains defend spacies.

 

[B.W.]

So continue your bickering, but I'm curious. Those who would make changes to Fox and/or Falco what changes would you make? For example, what I would do is

Fox
- Lower Blaster damage from 1-3 to 1-2
- Lower u-smash's damage from 18 to 15
- Very slightly lower u-smash's knockback (growth?)
- Change Up-B distance to PAL

Falco
- Spikes on first half of the animation. Meteors (that has slightly weaker knockback than the spike) on second half of the animation

I feel these changes would somewhat round out the two while keeping their playstyles unchanged.

The main problem I have with Fox is the distance his recovery has on top of its versatility. It's dumb how far away he's able to recover from.

Changing Falco's D-air to be a meteor on the second half of the animation is kind of a fine line between NTSC and PAL. He's still be able to combo with the spike, and even do so with the meteor, but it would require slightly more precision with his D-air.

As Fox and Falco are I think they have fantastic design. Truth be told I don't have any real problems with Falco. Fox on the other hand has strengths in every case and because he is very capable both on both offense and defense I find it a little silly that his recovery goes as far as it does with how versatile it is. Also slightly lowering his damage output would force players to have to keep up their tech skill for longer. Seeing as how if a good Fox hits you once, you're pretty much under his control until he reaches the end of the stage or he messes up, his damage output is incredibly. He doesn't need to have as high of a damage output as he does now as he will rack up damage quickly regardless and he is also a fantastic edge guarder and gimper with his B-air and his Shine Spike.

Lowering his damage output honestly makes the most sense. It wouldn't really change anything, but Fox would just have to do what he does for slightly longer which, when you think about it, makes sense to the character's playstyle. Fox is supposed to be a highly technical character, which he is, but he doesn't have to keep up his tech skill for very long because his damage output is very high. Having to be technical for a longer amount of time does actually make technical things harder, and Fox is supposed to be a difficult character due to being technically demanding. Just sayin'.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't even know where to start here........

I don't know what "multiple hard reads at once" means, are you counting each controller input as a separate "hard read"?

And whats this about not getting "anything substantial"? If you land a solid hit on fox with any character, you have the potential to at least convert into a good amount of damage plus an edgeguard, which can lead to death if you execute properly.

Not to mention, you don't have to "catch" fox. If he runs away, simply take stage control and zone him out. If you are trying to actually catch fox, you are going about it all wrong. For example, watch how Armada handles the fox match-up. Fox has a severe mobility advantage over Peach and Armada has plenty of experience against extremely campy fox players (hint: he still wins).

Luckily fox has the worst projectile in the game.

And yes, you can deal with it LOL. Have you ever played against falco before?

Is that all anyone does in this thread? Read me say one thing then fail at making logical leap? It is the worst projectile in the game =/= it has no use.

Umm why would that matter at all? I mean, you can already just jump over them or shield them or just man up and take them (and take the advantage it gives you). If they clanked, it would actually probably be a little buff since if you clank, you receive hitlag while fox wouldn't.

BONES THANK GOD YOU'RE HERE. THE FOX IGNORANCE IN THIS THREAD WAS GETTING UNREASONABLE

It's not at all complicated. On the ground, since Fox moves significantly faster via dashdancing and has multiple choices to make his choice of option safe (initial dash backward, multiple attack options backed up by Shine/grab, fast jump, reasonably quick Forward-B/Up-B/waveland (with these options being good around platforms), and virtually no time to react to stuff for the opponent in the position where one of the slowest characters would be able to do something like an initial dash into JC grab/shuffle an aerial and the like, say, Zelda, cannot get Fox in a position to do much more than a stray medium-damage F-Air hitbox. In order to get that, you have to assume that Fox is going to jump in your general space, whether it will be fullhop, shorthop, or immediate double-jump, whether he's going to go in close enough to put himself in range, and what option he chooses. The plethora of movement and safe attacks makes it so you have to zero in on one and just hope and pray you picked the right move at the right time. It's obviously not that way for most characters, but it is that way for a significant number of them.

Thing is, with the lasers being so incredibly noncommittal in the matchups I'm describing, there's no reason to need or want to go in because it serves to leave yourself open in a scenario where you only want to do that very sparingly to keep them guessing. Comparing Armada's Melee play to Fox's PM play only goes so far, considering the extreme toolset that Peach has that most characters can't even come close to matching (in terms of what it's best at). Lagless jump-cancel aerials with enormous, long-lasting hitboxes (which give Peach the ability to greatly vary the length of her individual pokes with zero commitment and plays an integral part in her success. Frame 5 Tornado that really does a number on space animals for even thinking about being in her ground space, let alone crouch canceling. An item that fits really well into her incredible poke/spacing game and gives her even greater flexibility for offense and defense. She makes up for her mobility disparity by being a walking floating variable hitbox machine that often requires hard reads to get in on, which is not something that is shared by any other character, really.

The issue is further exacerbated by the fact that Melee has zero a very small handful of good competitive stages, which forces a noticeably smaller average stage on people compared to PM. Strike Yoshi's Story (seriously, why is this even a starter), FoD, and Battlefield (or maybe FD if you're fighting someone you need platforms to fight), and things are looking significantly bleaker based on stage size.

Falco's lasers and Fox's lasers are two incredibly powerful options for two noticeably different reasons (though infinite range is a significant part of their effectiveness). I wasn't here to discuss the merits of how good a move is on a theoretical character.

I made the "awful projectile = not that important" in order to lead into a suggestion where a potential compromise can be made. The least you could do is not be an ass about it, but you seem to be above (below) that, which is a shame.

You can only "just avoid lasers" when you're playing on very specific stages or using very specific characters. It's like you're not even trying to think critically here. I don't have time for that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You can only "just avoid lasers" when you're playing on very specific stages or using very specific characters. It's like you're not even trying to think critically here. I don't have time for that.

.... really?

Your argument makes me seriously wonder to what extent you've played this or any smash bros game. The only reason you're not getting laughed off the boards right now is because were 750 posts deep on a thread that nobody reads. Go post your argument in the melee fox boards and see what kind of response you get.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The people on the Melee Fox boards don't play this game, and based on your response to my post, it's safe to say that you don't, either. I explicitly stated the significant stage differences, as well as a number of other concerns, and you tell me to ask Melee players about a game the average Melee player knows very little about. Believe it or not, being experienced at an antiquated game does not make you (the general "you") qualified to talk about the high-level play surrounding a different, better spiritual successor to the game. Even if Fox players go into PM with the intention of doing the exact same thing as in Melee, there are a staggering number of new things to consider.

I'm done with this conversation. If anyone else wants to have a reasonable discussion on it, I'll poke my head in here every now and then.

 

[Juushichi]

It kinda blows my mind that someone like Sveet is implying that Reflex of all people doesn't know his way around a smash game, while simultaneously ignoring the changing variables that one can easily observe from one smash game to the other.

This post of mine didn't add anything to this thread, but this observation is so strange that I had to point it out.

 

[Shadic]

.... really?

Your argument makes me seriously wonder to what extent you've played this or any smash bros game. The only reason you're not getting laughed off the boards right now is because were 750 posts deep on a thread that nobody reads. Go post your argument in the melee fox boards and see what kind of response you get.

This kind of accusation would almost have a chance of going somewhere if it wasn't aimed at the guy who won the most stacked P:M tournament ever.

 

[Juushichi]

Not just won, but destroyed.

 

[ELI-mination]

I can't even begin to list the amount of times I was called a bad player for thinking spacies are stupidly designed.
Kinda shows those toxic levels of ignorance considering that I'm gahlike.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It has nothing to do with P:M, which is why I am telling you to go ask the people who have extensive experience with the "exact" character that was imported from the previous game. General strategies for beating the character remain the same despite a different cast. The basic game mechanics are all there.

Most likely any problem you are currently having is due to the stage list. Dreamland was the biggest stage melee could handle without camping strategies being overpowered. Thats not a character specific problem, its a stage problem. For example, Pink Shinobi (peach) timed out Rockcrock (ganondorf) on a stage just slightly bigger than dreamland: kongo jungle 64.

This kind of accusation would almost have a chance of going somewhere if it wasn't aimed at the guy who won the most stacked P:M tournament ever.

yeah? what tournament was that? never heard of the guy and hes saying some pretty dumb **** so he needs to be called out.

I can't even begin to list the amount of times I was called a bad player for thinking spacies are stupidly designed.
Kinda shows those toxic levels of ignorance considering that I'm gahlike.

And you can have your opinion. If you think they are poorly designed and want to remake the character, thats one thing. People who say fox is broken are objectively wrong.

Im actually pretty open to remake discussion. I'd miss the furry but hes very bland compared to the interesting things P:M has right now.

 

[Strong Badam]

He won APEX 2013's invitational Project M tournament, beating Kage (3-0) and Hungrybox (3-1), among other players.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Exactly. The problem is they're currently untouchable. Nobody wants to bring them down a notch, but any character that might be given the tools to bring them up to their level will most likely be changed, i.e. nerfed. Everybody complained about Ike and Lucario, and they received changes. Everybody is complaining about Sonic, and he is almost certainly going to see changes. They have things that people consider(ed) ridiculous, and yet I'm positive that if Fox/Falco were brand new characters, they would also be branded just as, if not more, ridiculous. It's a double standard. I'd be okay if all other characters were brought up to around their level, but with the way things are going, it's not going to happen because everybody complains as soon as a character is deemed too good even though nobody is entirely sure if said character was even as good as the space animals in the first place. Basically, instead of being standards for what other characters should be, they're an example of what other characters aren't allowed to be.

But anyway, yeah, these arguments are going in circles. Obviously one side isn't going to convince the other, so we might as well just end the discussion.

I think this was said well, if there has to be a decision to nerf Fox and Falco, or just buff everyone else, I think it would be better to have everyone else be buffed, so Melee pros will be happy that Fox and Falco aren't different, and everyone else has their mains able to deal with Fox and Falco finally

In retrospect, I think nerfing Ike and Lucario was a bad idea, because as you said, it's become double standard

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think this was said well, if there has to be a decision to nerf Fox and Falco, or just buff everyone else, I think it would be better to have everyone else be buffed, so Melee pros will be happy that Fox and Falco aren't different, and everyone else has their mains able to deal with Fox and Falco finally

Assuming we're greatly concerned about how Melee pros feels, there's not some big line between Fox/Falco and the rest of the cast. Fox and Falco are not the only characters that Melee pros play and/or care about, yet the changes made to other Melee high tiers have been pretty well-received overall. That's important to consider. Other than the Sheik D-Throw stuff that people eventually realized was an excellent idea, where has the PMBR let you down in terms of purposeful changes to those characters?

 

[The_NZA]

.... really?

Your argument makes me seriously wonder to what extent you've played this or any smash bros game. The only reason you're not getting laughed off the boards right now is because were 750 posts deep on a thread that nobody reads. Go post your argument in the melee fox boards and see what kind of response you get.

Reflex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzbLYYnAsFI
Sveet: I don't DI perfectly against frame 5 usmash's everytime, but the fact that a move that ignores stage position can kill at 82 or 83% percentage against a medium weight and has substantial leadins just goes to show that Fox's laser plays an integral part in his play. You only need to get most characters at 80-95 percent to have an easy kill move. Therefore, lazering in 20% (not a hard task on any given stock on most stages) brings you a quarter of the way there to securing the kill.

You really like strawmen. Its kind of what you did with the laser argument that people were making earlier.

1. everyone says fox's mobility + lazer makes a pretty scary combo that forces you to engage
2. you say fox's lazer is the worst projectile in the game
3. everyone says it doesn't matter in a vacum if its the worst projectile in the game. It's good on Fox.
4. You say "..."
5. everyone says "can we nerf it if you think its so bad?"
6. You say "no, fox's mobility + lazer is an important combo that forces your enemy to engage".

repeat 2-6.

 

[leelue]

yeah? what tournament was that? never heard of the guy and hes saying some pretty dumb **** so he needs to be called out.

Basically admitting to not knowing anything about the PM scene more than the average tom **** and harry

I think it would be better to have everyone else be buffed, so Melee pros will be happy that Fox and Falco aren't different

M2K is allowed to use PM as another paycheck. This game, our game, that he doesn't seem to care about. To hell with that if you ask me. When we knocked his team into losers and then he got beaten in losers finals, I refused to let him hear the end of it. I don't think anybody grasps the level of offense I take from seeing someone think they can just pick up a controller and succeed at PM just by their name and character selection.

In retrospect, I think nerfing Ike and Lucario was a bad idea, because as you said, it's become double standard

I think it was a good idea. Those characters had stupid, stupid traits. I like the fact that nothing should be allowed to be set in stone. Even a "yeah, this move does 1% too much maybe" level of micromanagement is something I'm totally down for.

He won APEX 2013's invitational Project M tournament, beating Kage (3-0) and Hungrybox (3-1), among other players.

Next time, I won't turn down my invite, sonny

Im actually pretty open to remake discussion. I'd miss the furry but hes very bland compared to the interesting things P:M has right now.

If this was considered to be a realistic possibility by the PM team, I would die out of sheer joygasm. I would love to not turn off my brain when watching this character play. I'd appreciate the newness (like I said before) and the sheer ballsiness.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't think Ike's Side B is stupid because of the options out of it. It's stupid because it reaches a full charge in a half-second and the nerfs to it don't make the parts that were silly less silly. I'd prefer having all of: action on frame 1 back, having it charge slower, having the initial length of the dash shortened, and having charging increase the distance the move travels, rather than increasing the frames for which Ike travels while maintaining the same speed. As it stands, the mobility offered by a no-charge and a full-charge have minimal disparity, and the brief charge time makes what little difference there is even less noticeable.

 

[trash?]

Most obvious way to go about it would be making the risks even riskier. Give stuff like Usmash a more narrow hitbox, stuff like that, enforce every hit a spacie makes to be clear and perfect, so the technical bits become moreso. That'd probably be incredibly polarizing, though, but then again, polarizing is... kind of what spacies are supposed to be.