On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[Vashimus]

Hmm, I defintiely find it interesting to hear one of the developer's philosophys. To be honest, I don't really have a stake in watching mango or m2k play and I'm actually psyched that armada chose to play Pit. It is an exciting thing to watch. If you want to make Fox less silly, be my guest. I'd happily still play and praise your game, and it will still likely be my favorite smash brothers experience.

Perhaps a Q&A live stream with some of the PMBR? Not that it'd be much different than just asking here. I just like hearing Shadic's deep and sexy voice.

 

[Jolteon]

I definitely feel like I had the opposite argument with a pmbr member on smashmods back in the day. I feel like it was perceived that if M2K and Mango and Armada and HBox didn't like the game, it would fail. Which is proving to be wholly untrue.

I'm glad you'r a progressive pmbr member, but you have to know your opinion isn't shared by enough of you guys.

I don't think this is necessarily true. A lot of us agree with Reflex, maybe we aren't vocal about it but that's not what matters.

 

[leelue]

"enough"

also wtf Jolteon is pmbr?

 

[metroid1117]

Jolteon has been PMBR since late October or early November, IIRC.

 

[leelue]

But he plays toon link

 

[Jolteon]

Yeah, I've been PMBR since Dec. <.<

edit: Toon Link da bess.

 

[Oro?!]

Jolteon hit the nail on the head. There are a lot of neutral parties as well such as myself.

 

[Scythe]

so many of the new chars have ridic recoveries and moves that can really mess up spacies. They don't need to be nerfed. I am not reutral.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah I have a list going of characters I think do well against spacies. A lot of characters have even match-ups, but there are some "counter" match-ups (Bowser just kinda ****s on Falco).



I dont have much more to say. Just keepin the chicago train running

 

[Giygacoal]

Bowser just kinda ****s on Falco

Could Bowser be the hero Project M needs? Gasp!

Depends on the stage imo.

 

[trash?]

I recall gimpyfish outright saying that bowser can't do anything against a fox when the fox player knows what to do. Granted, that's one player, but it's also the lord and savior of bowsers, so.

 

[Professor Pro]

Yeah, I've been PMBR since Dec. <.<

edit: Toon Link da bess.

You're in the PMBR

How come I never knew?
I still find it weird when people say that you can just pick spacies and use them because they're free, but that's prob just cos i'm from a Melee back and understand them and how to play against them and **** them.

 

[Ace55]

A lot of characters have even match-ups, but there are some "counter" match-ups (Bowser just kinda ****s on Falco).

If there was ever a hard counter to Falco it's Bowser on a small stage. Nobody wants to play that matchup against me anymore lol. Even on bigger stages it's still Bowser's favor imo.

Fox is still a ****ty matchup though.

 

[Jolteon]

You're in the PMBR

How come I never knew?
I still find it weird when people say that you can just pick spacies and use them because they're free, but that's prob just cos i'm from a Melee back and understand them and how to play against them and **** them.

You need to be good at playing Snake to know.

 

[Shadic]

Perhaps a Q&A live stream with some of the PMBR? Not that it'd be much different than just asking here. I just like hearing Shadic's deep and sexy voice.

I actually JUST had my new fancy microphone arrive today.

 

[SpiderMad]

I actually JUST had my new fancy microphone arrive today.

Can you and Ryoko talk at the same time like Gohanks and reverb my speakers to explode?

 

[Deleted member]

I still find it weird when people say that you can just pick spacies and use them because they're free, but that's prob just cos i'm from a Melee back and understand them and how to play against them and **** them.

I think you're missing the point. People don't like Fox/Falco because they're still blatantly top tier, everything transfers for their respective players, and a large portion of the cast was clearly given tactics specifically to deal with them because they are so polarizing. Using space animals at this point in the game's very early life span is essentially free relative to the rest of the cast because you can play "Buttons: The Game" with those characters and largely get away with it...more than you should be able to.

Now whether or not they need to be nerfed is a different question, but they are at least somewhat related.

 

[leelue]

"You like this"
-Smashboards, at me

 

[The_NZA]

supernova?

 

[JOE!]

If any other character had their shennanigans, would people be so hesitant to cry foul?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Obviously. There was an awful lot of concern with 2.0/2.1 Ike and Lucario.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

I'm inclined to think that 2.1 Ike and Lucario needed tweaks to make them less easy and braindead with some nerfs here and there. The premise of this game is to try to put others on the Spacies' levels after all.

 

[The_NZA]

Shining after aerials is pretty braindead, though... I mean it's almost never a bad idea not to do it. Sure it requires some finger presses but once we've all mastered lcancelling, how much harder is it to hit down b and jump out of it?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

... until you play people who punish you for very very small things. Like people who SDI your shield pressure so your shine misses and then grab you (instead you have to late aerial and run or grab first). I assume you're talking about falco, because with fox its pretty bad to shine after every aerial; shining someone who is in the air (even a small amount) will cause them to land on the ground with no lag, giving them a free grab or similar.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, the fast fall speed and ability to double-click Down-B helps shield pressure immensely. If you're not coming down with the same attack at the same time every time, they still have way more options in that situation than virtually everyone else.

The threat of Down-B allows for many straight-up grab opportunities (and other stuff, but, grab is most relevant to the discussion) that are more-or-less exclusive to them. Thankfully, Falco's grab game is lackluster, but Fox gets a good deal more out of it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

And yet they aren't invincible. If the spacie is all over your shield, just wait for him to jump again and roll. Don't get mad about not being able to attack out of your shield; don't attack from a defensive position, smash bros 101

 

[The_NZA]

And yet they aren't invincible. If the spacie is all over your shield, just wait for him to jump again and roll. Don't get mad about not being able to attack out of your shield; don't attack from a defensive position, smash bros 101

...Isn't a large part of smash attacking from a defensive position to punish someone who has committed to an action? I.e. shield grabbing, rising aerials oos, OOS options in general. Pretty much only against spacies is it a bad idea to attack out of a shield because you might end up shined to dair or shined to usmash out of it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And yet they aren't invincible. If the spacie is all over your shield, just wait for him to jump again and roll. Don't get mad about not being able to attack out of your shield; don't attack from a defensive position, smash bros 101

Well, nobody's invincible. That said, being invincible shouldn't be the minimum criteria for developers to change something (though one should always take a thoughtful, careful approach to it). In the case of space animals on your shield, you're assuming that they're going to jump again, and you're already defaulting to rolling away. That seems to suggest a head-and-shoulders superiority in that position compared to the rest of the cast, especially when you consider that they can still actually read you like the rest of the cast, except with much greater safety behind it.

I'm not saying it's unreasonable (though I'm almost not saying it's not, at least in this post!). Just some stuff that needs to be considered. It's not as simple as "once you know certain stuff, it's not nearly as useful."

 

[Deleted member]

even if the fox/falco is all over your shield, we don't really care about sub-optimal play. fox and falco are much more broken because they eliminate the neutral game state more than anything. however, this characteristic is in many ways their defining aspect, so it's hard to design them in such a way that their fanbase can still recognize them without keeping them fundamentally broken. fox/falco are stupid because you can know what both of them are going to do and still do very little about it.

 

[The_NZA]

Sveet, I'd love to see a video of decent (read: not mango/armada) players shield SDIing consistently into grabs on spacie aerial-shine pressure. Just because you can suggest counterplay that may work, doesn't mean the strategy isn't absurdly difficult to perform (and therefore out of the toolsets of most high level players who are of equal skill to medium level players pressuring as fox/falco).

I could always argue Ike's 2.1 insane sweetspots that make him ultra powerful aren't dumb design because you can just avoid getting hit by his powerful moves. That doesn't prove that that is good design.

But honestly, i enjoy fox/falco's high pressure strategies. I like hte idea of nerfing them through means that do not change their identity. I'm wondering, those of you who feel it wont change matchups, and are suggesting fox/falco be changed more fundamentally––what are your suggestions. What are some fundamental changes that we can brainstorm that would make them less absurd but still fun?

Obviously, changing Fox's mobility might be one. I wonder what it would look like if Fox was as fast or just slightly faster than wolf (i think he's right now way faster, although I haven't looked at numbers).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm blocked from youtube right now NZA, but there are plenty of people that do. Linguini has done it since the old days. I've had people to it to me in chicago. The thing about competitive play is that if its possible to do something to win, somebody will do it, and then somebody will copy them.

Everything should not have the same difficulty to perform. The metagame advances because certain things are very good for how easy they are, and those things win until people get more consistent with the harder things that are more effective. The fact that there is counter play means that it is balanced; whether or not a player is good enough to actually execute properly is an entirely different story.

And your ike parallel is flawed. I actually give a specific and universal escape from shield pressure, while you just say "don't get hit" (which means nothing).

...Isn't a large part of smash attacking from a defensive position to punish someone who has committed to an action? I.e. shield grabbing, rising aerials oos, OOS options in general. Pretty much only against spacies is it a bad idea to attack out of a shield because you might end up shined to dair or shined to usmash out of it.

Maybe against bad players... To good players the game is about maintaining advantaged position much more than executing combos or whatever. Landing a shield grab means that your opponent went from being advantaged to disadvantaged, even if it was just a split second, and you capitalized. A good player will never get shield grabbed because they will not be so foolish to take the risk (unless they are attempting some yomi).

Read Little England's 10,000 words of power, he has a section about not attacking from a defensive position which will probably explain it better than I could.

 

[t3chn0g0at]

There is no way to completely balance a fighter such as Smash. It's inevitable that some characters will be better than others. Does it really matter if it's Fox/Falco? At least we're all used to dealing with them. Though if we were to change them (which I do not at all support), I think nerfing Fox's up-B a little (changing it to PAL, maybe?) would be the best way to do it. I don't think Falco needs nerfs: he's pretty much dead if he messes up against most of the cast anyway. Besides, I think he'll always be top so long as he has his lasers, shine, and dair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Btw fox's recovery did get a nerf in P:M. He no longer has air mobility after the peak of his upb (similar to zelda in melee, but to a lesser extent). Its not a huge deal, but it does make him unable to sweetspot as good as he could in melee.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm blocked from youtube right now NZA, but there are plenty of people that do. Linguini has done it since the old days. I've had people to it to me in chicago. The thing about competitive play is that if its possible to do something to win, somebody will do it, and then somebody will copy them.

Everything should not have the same difficulty to perform. The metagame advances because certain things are very good for how easy they are, and those things win until people get more consistent with the harder things that are more effective. The fact that there is counter play means that it is balanced; whether or not a player is good enough to actually execute properly is an entirely different story.

And your ike parallel is flawed. I actually give a specific and universal escape from shield pressure, while you just say "don't get hit" (which means nothing).


Maybe against bad players... To good players the game is about maintaining advantaged position much more than executing combos or whatever. Landing a shield grab means that your opponent went from being advantaged to disadvantaged, even if it was just a split second, and you capitalized. A good player will never get shield grabbed because they will not be so foolish to take the risk (unless they are attempting some yomi).

Read Little England's 10,000 words of power, he has a section about not attacking from a defensive position which will probably explain it better than I could.

Okay, OBVIOUSLY a player is going to take measures to prevent themselves from being punished. But you can't say "you are never supposed to attack from a defensive position" because the whole concept of punishing is to transition from defense to offense before your opponent transitions from failed offense to defense (and in the case of fox/falco, more offense IS defense).

Pretty much only fox/falco can put on offense into more offense into more offense, forcing you to only make defensive choices (sdi away, roll away).

I think you are using advantaged and disadvantaged is kind of meaningless (as you are just subbing them for "good and bad").

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When I said "don't attack from a defensive position" i meant disadvantaged position. Was kinda in a rush (had an exam).

This is very basic smash theory that a lot of players don't realize for a long time. Playing with your friends and even moderately good players, you can get away with things you shouldn't (such as side-bing from the edge with spacies or shield grabbing frequently). Practice against someone who is very methodical (kels was that person for me) and you will find them punishing it every single time and taking your stock from it.

Examples of attacking from a disadvantage (quote from 10,000 words of power)

Attacking from the ledge- meaning when you are on the ledge
and your opponent is on the stage.

Rolling- Generally bad. Wavedash OoS is better 99% of the time (Mango advice). Only a few characters have fast/sometimes useful rolls.

Shield grabbing- People spam this in their desperate attempt to turn the tide in their bad situation (being in their shield). Jay is a
prime example of this, especially when he’s fighting spacies.

Attacking from the air- This describes that situation where you’re in the air and your opponent is below you on the stage. They are in the advantage! Do not force an attack here. Focus on landing safely. Assess the situation and decide the best way to safely gain your ground.

Get-up attack- When you use get up attacks after you miss your techs you are vulnerable forever. Your opponent is able to punish that off of pure reaction. All they have to do is stand outside of the range of the getup attack and punish you.
Missing techs in general will get you punished, but get up attacks are a sure fire way to get ***** by good players. Play cat and mouse with them. Just lay there. Again, wait and assess the situation. Make a decision that he may not be ready for, or just choose a way get up that will minimize your loss.

Making bad out of Shield Decisions- Most bad players shield grab a lot. The other half will roll or spot dodge. You have to be able to recognize what is the best option to do out of your shield. To do this you have to observe how your shield is getting pressured. This get’s really specific.

 

[Nausicaa]

Yeah, from shield and from a defensive position are much different.
Shield is the most universally sound approach in the game.
WD is the most universally sound way to leave the shield.
That ain't no defense! lol

Wolf should Shine-Grab almost every time. Shield pressure is a process to get the desired hit, Wolf could just Grab every time since it's reliable diverse for him, pretty desirable. Fox/Falco could always use doing that more too. Too often it's commented that Falco has to focus on covering the holes that ARE there, and Shine-Grab is as certain as it gets. Good thing his throw game is weak. hehe

How about this famous smash quote?
"You don't have to go to them if you don't want to."
If you roll out of Falco pressure, only to get lasered/whatever in a neutral position, you've simply deteriorated the pressure Falco had been trying to build. Needing to roll out of pressure isn't a negative thing if it's effective at relieving the pressure. If anything, this is one of the dynamics of the pressure game for spacies to try working around. It's not an advantage to them, it's a layer to the meta-game for them. In all senses of the situation, it's NOT a bad thing to roll if it's the best thing you can do.

Just like attacking from the ledge/etc, all of these things have their moment. As Sveet pointed out, don't do things that increase or put you at a disadvantage/from a disadvantage. This can include everything from shooting a Falco laser across a stage, to sitting in your shield until it nearly breaks. Everything has its moment, but don't force stuff from those positions. You're at a 'disadvantage' after all. Patience, and those swings in advantage will come, patience.

On the topic of Fox/Falco hate...
Discussions on forums always rekindles my appreciation for this game. I'm gonna play some smash sometime soon. <3

 

[The_NZA]

So I get all that, and it is definitely helpful advice. But where does that bring us in terms of the argument? We all don't play as robots, and I think too often in these discussions people hypothetically argue that we do. Most players on the offense rely on good spacing to protect them when their approaches are stuffed by shields. People get pissed that fox/falco can negate that focus people put on good spacing when they are on the offense with their (mostly) safe aerial shine jump pressure. There isn't too much counterplay when you are shielding and getting pressured like crazy. Your OOS options don't matter, your grab game doesn't matter, your powershielding game doesn't matter that much (i think). That type of pressure is unique to them, and thats nice, but it is very impenetrable and hard to deal with.

No one wants to take away the shine, but the main issue with fox and falco (moreso fox) their vulnerabilities are hard to capitalize on because they are so protected. They are protected by strong projectiles, amazing mobility in the case of fox, great aerials and a defensive shine game to assist them in staying on the offense.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

NZA just go practice more man. There are holes and exploits to the shield pressure, but I don't have time to walk you through every scenario. I'm sure if you asked your local pro to walk you through the matchup or give you tips on getting thru the pressure, they would be glad to help.

 

[The_NZA]

you are being condescending, Sveet. I'm not posting in here as a "help me" thread. It is undeniable that in Melee Fox/Falco are top by a large margin and have amazing matchups against quite a few characters. This isn't about my personal week play. This right now is a forum to talk about design, and whether Fox and Falco should maintain their design. If you read through my posts I am playing two primary roles in this discussion. Let me explain them to you (since you don't really seem to understand my motives).

1. I am personally advocating that Uair/usmash for Fox should be nerfed because their uniqueness in power, risk/reward, and ease of execution have no parallel in this game––especially when tacked on to a character who already has a better tool set than probably everyone else.

2. I am facilitating a conversation where people are saying the aim of this game isn't to bring everyone to "fox/falco tier", as that might create polarizing game design with silly mechanics. Instead, we should design every character to be reasonable, as a true sequel to Melee. These players are advocating Fox gets nerfed, since if Fox or Falco were to appear in the game tomorrow as newcomers, they would undoubtedly have aspects of themselves nerfed to prevent silliness.

Part of my arguing here has to do with explaining to you (one member of a seemingly small minority) the aspects of Fox/Falco that put them above everyone else, that allow them to play the game without the restraints everyone else has. The arguments I've been making aren't about "no counterplay"––its about identifying bad aspects of their character design, and finding out how people think we should go around fixing them. Hopefully this topic will result in one of three changes.

a. Fox/Falco aren't changed (design philosophy follows that everyone else is to be of relative strength
b. Fox/Falco are changed in a way that does not affect their identity (having their killing potential decreased, or their survivability decreased)
c. Fox/Falco are changed in a way that does change their identity (some intrinsic change that fundamentally makes the character more fair but also different)

I'm not looking for your cute advice or cries for me to get better. This isn't about me. This is a community discussion with many contributors of which I am honestly arguing for "b" and I'm wondering what changes people arguing for "c" would recommend. We ALL get your position. It hasn't changed and it has only been punctuated by your calls for the rest of us to "get better" and "learn counterplay" (points we are already well aware of). You fall in the "a" camp. Informing me of smash shield DI was nice, I actually didn't know that. Keep up those kinds of tips. But keep the other stuff that is helping no one to yourself.

 

[Nausicaa]

That's pretty clear and well put, so hopefully it gets across.

If they showed up in the game today, I would personally be fine with them just as they are. They're to one extreme, but I wouldn't find their killing potential, recoveries, or pressure options to be of consideration to change.

This is all about design again, as you mentioned, but these parts of their design aren't what give them any silliness. That pressure that's been discussed is more of a feature to the characters than anything else, as it's not breaking the game. It's simply distinct.

The design in that they're diversity between being able to camp with such offensive prowess, as a result of their speed in all forms, is the only silly thing about them. It borders the line of too silly, and placed exactly as it needs to be. What side of the line is that on?
Maybe they're not on the 'ok' side, but there is no way I'll see them as 'not ok' anytime soon.
They're too fun to beat up to bother nerfing anyway.