Vashimus
Smash Master
Considering Ike's reduced hit lag on block with some of his attacks, along with L-canceling, punishing his landings after attacks wasn't that easy.
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On the topic of Fox/Falco hate
- Thread starter 1MachGO
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JOE, I think you are confusing anti-spacie buffed for just regular buffed. Melee top and high tiers are essentially the same so all other characters are being brought up to their standard of good mobility, combo/edge guard tools, recovery, and kill moves. However, at the helm of all improvement is the unique identity of that respective character. No character was tailor made to fight Fox or Falco. Rather, all characters were given improved tools which have compounded effects against the combo and gimp vulnerable fast fallers. To question how buffing against fast fallers will affect other MUs is a silly idea because 1. It isn't buffing against just fast fallers, its buffing to match Melee top and high tiers, and 2. Of course buffing in general will change MUs.
If there was any anti-spacie technology added the only two incidents that I can think of would be DK's dash attack and Bowser's crawl. Both of which were clearly incorporated to have some sort of answer against Falco's lasers. I honestly doubt these will have some kind of god-send impact on the non Falco MU.
If there was any anti-spacie technology added the only two incidents that I can think of would be DK's dash attack and Bowser's crawl. Both of which were clearly incorporated to have some sort of answer against Falco's lasers. I honestly doubt these will have some kind of god-send impact on the non Falco MU.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Not just Falco, but camping or projectile play in general. Sheik was DK's either hardest or 2nd hardest matchup because of needles and chaingrabs.
GnW can be seen as a spacie hard-counter, theoretically. That down-b's suddenly infinitely more useful than it was before, though I can't think of any times where it was used in proper matches.
Mostly, I'm glad there's more people who can abuse the gravity of fast-fallers. That's a problem I had with melee, that a lot of the people who could gimp fast-fallers well... happened to be other fast-fallers.
Mostly, I'm glad there's more people who can abuse the gravity of fast-fallers. That's a problem I had with melee, that a lot of the people who could gimp fast-fallers well... happened to be other fast-fallers.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
Fox and Falco are fine as they are. Nerfing them would be working backwards. The point was to bring the entire cast up to their level. I feel fox and falco finally have bad matchups with P:M's new cast, but they retain all of their advantages so I think they are still on top tier wise. Come to think of it, with this game's balance a tier list may not even be relevant. I say let the meta game develop and settle, from this we would be able to see all imbalances.
JOE!
Smash Hero
1) who beats them?
2) those who have been brought up to them seem to get nerfed
2) those who have been brought up to them seem to get nerfed
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I'll give you Sonic.
Like Marth Sheik, Puff, Peach....what?
How does GnW hard-counter space animals? I want an explanation lol.
Oracle
Smash Master
>game and watch
>space animal counter
>space animal counter
Well unlike Melee, G&W's Up-B OoS can actually be made safe with double jump, so that has to mean something. Plus his edgeguarding is pretty good and dtilt/throw related follow ups can be devastating at the right percents. SHDB would also be great defense against Fox's SHFFL approaches. I don't think G&W would be a counter, but I would buy that its even-stage dependent.
I could see Sonic and Pit being contenders for having slight advantages against Fox and Falco. I could also see Wolf having a slight advantage in the MU somewhere down the road. Most believe Falco already has a 55:45 MU against Fox in Melee because his shine is better for comboing. Wolf's shine trajectory is similar to Falco's so he might gain a similar advantage. Combine that with Wolf's juggling options (which can wreck fast fallers) and his Fox-like speed and FH approach options, he might just have enough leverage in the MU.
2) PMBR's changes mainly had to do with their personal opinions of design. Not preventing someone from being as good as spacies, Sheik, or Puff.
I could see Sonic and Pit being contenders for having slight advantages against Fox and Falco. I could also see Wolf having a slight advantage in the MU somewhere down the road. Most believe Falco already has a 55:45 MU against Fox in Melee because his shine is better for comboing. Wolf's shine trajectory is similar to Falco's so he might gain a similar advantage. Combine that with Wolf's juggling options (which can wreck fast fallers) and his Fox-like speed and FH approach options, he might just have enough leverage in the MU.
1) Who do they outright hard-counter? (Excluding the obvious C. Falcon/Ganon MUs since they haven't really changed from Melee)
2) PMBR's changes mainly had to do with their personal opinions of design. Not preventing someone from being as good as spacies, Sheik, or Puff.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i think peach beats both fox and falco
Oracle
Smash Master
game and watch loses pretty hard to fox. Thats what happens when you die to an upsmash at like 65%. Pit and sonic also lose to space animals, although i could see pit doing ok against falco.
Umbreon why do you think peach beats fox? I agree with falco, just curious since most people assume in melee that fox wins
Umbreon why do you think peach beats fox? I agree with falco, just curious since most people assume in melee that fox wins
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
delete falco, **** cats
#swaggarnation
#swaggarnation
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I can see Falco because Peach can deal with the way he commands space with her float and aerial mobility and the shield mechanics being the way they are but if Fox wants to play the MU peach can't do anything about it. Especially if the Fox won't approach you.
Scythe
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,875
Fox is like Wolf's worst matchup. He has nothing to contend with fox nair or bair and just gets crushed.
Wolf's worst MU simply because of nair and bair? Idk if I am convinced.
Sonic, I admit, I don't know much about. But just based on his speed, throws, and gimping options I also have a difficult time seeing him lose to the spacies.
Pit has great mobility, OoS options, recovery, and a great projectile. He also gets knocked down by Fox's shine which eliminates a lot of his free follow ups. If you really want to get down and compare, Pit's raw options probably exceed those of Marth's. I would agree that it could be even or stage dependent, but I can't really see how Pit would outright lose to either space animal.
Sonic, I admit, I don't know much about. But just based on his speed, throws, and gimping options I also have a difficult time seeing him lose to the spacies.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Pew Pew > Speed
Fortress | Sveet
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I don't think g&w's upb is that good atm. Its quick but has pretty low knockback and can be easily cc'd. It put you above fox which is never good and the double jump mixup isn't an effective defense. His attributes give him the potential to be good in the matchup (falls from shine, abusable throws) but I think he needs some buffs in general.
Also, wolf definitely doesn't compete with fox in move speed, though I don't think the matchup is that bad.
Also, wolf definitely doesn't compete with fox in move speed, though I don't think the matchup is that bad.
Oracle
Smash Master
g&w's up b is pretty godlike, just not in that matchup
D
Deleted member
Guest
there is no substantive evidence that fox beats peach in melee at the top level of play. in PM, everything is preserved, except stuff that favors peach: her CG is MUCH easier and fox can't ban every stage to avoid it, her recovery is much better and she can survive shinespikes at the edge, shield mechanics in PM make hitting them even more dangerous than in previous games. fox gets a better dash upsmash in PM but that's not enough to cover the difference.
you could argue larger stages favoring either character, i wasn't able to come to a conclusion on it.
that and that peach is seriously ****ing amazing in this game. clearly top tier on her own, she's going to be a potent opponent regardless of MU let alone one where every conversion is a death touch.
you could argue larger stages favoring either character, i wasn't able to come to a conclusion on it.
that and that peach is seriously ****ing amazing in this game. clearly top tier on her own, she's going to be a potent opponent regardless of MU let alone one where every conversion is a death touch.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Umbreon, what's your top 8?
D
Deleted member
Guest
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-43#post-15358514
take that however you wish. i have made no changes since the time i posted it.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Sure there is. It's called Armada is an outlier and everyone else loses to spacies.
D
Deleted member
Guest
when you have statistical outliers, you can either keep them or omit them as part of your data. having armada included in my observations is a more accurate representation of top tier smash than excluding him. you could say the same for hungrybox and mew2king, but at that point are they really outliers?
Why are you guys still crying so hard? Like foreal. There's plenty of good counters to every single thing in this game, whether your small ~*theory-craft-specialist*~ mind knows it or not. Everyone has good options against everyone else. Just because YOU aren't aware of them or refuse to utilize those options doesn't make your opponent's character overpowered.
cannedbread
Smash Lord
please don't be that guy
JOE!
Smash Hero
Humoring you, the problem comes up when the other guy has better options to all your options.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Oracle
Smash Master
Bryonato
Green Hat
Nobody is crying LOL
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Urgh you guys.
I'm going to lock this for a few days at the very least, try and clean up your attitude in that time. If it starts getting bad again I'm just going to have to lock it permanently.
I'm going to lock this for a few days at the very least, try and clean up your attitude in that time. If it starts getting bad again I'm just going to have to lock it permanently.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Opening again. In the effort to keep this open, this thread will be an easy one to get infracted in, so please tread carefully.
Fox and Falco are godlike. You can argue whether that's positive or negative, or whether or not that's a broken problem, but that's something that's entirely clear. They are really, really good, and have some of the strongest MUs in the game, if not the strongest MUs in the game. Knowing this, I suppose I can't be reactionary without sounding dumb, so instead... who's good against a spacie, anyway? There's been examples shown, but it's all been theorycrafting, which I'd rather not entrust.
Certainly, you'd be right, but in this position I want to state what the metagame has shown so far, and how to move it forward. Metagame sez: Holy cripes, spacies are still amazingly good (now with more wolf action!).
I want hard footage of anti-spacie stuff. If we're going to argue that we gotta outlearn spacies, then we should probably stop the theoretical "can they/can't they" and find out if they actually can.
I want hard footage of anti-spacie stuff. If we're going to argue that we gotta outlearn spacies, then we should probably stop the theoretical "can they/can't they" and find out if they actually can.
leelue
Smash Lord
I know this is a rehashing of a familiar argument, so you can not respond if you think it's going to devolve into a familiar go-nowhere argument, but
If we can admit that things like lucario getting free grabs out of any move is a little crazy and tone it back, I find the idea of finding the idea of toning down the spacies to be repulsive to be repulsive. At least for those who are unapologetic about it.
It's one thing to say "no they shouldn't because we will lose too many fans" because it is on the surface a good concern (even if I think that's not as true as it is made out to be. At all.) But to look at fox and go "Yeah, that's the sweetspot. Perfect and totally unalterable character design" is insanity.
Do people really believe that the game would be so difficult to balance without a premade character or 3 to base it around? Aren't most of the devs good players with some semblance of understanding behind what makes this game good and what makes a character good? I think that if, say, the top 5 characters in the game were eliminated completely (if you include fox and falco) and the team was directed to make the other characters competitive and balanced, it would be about as possible as the task at hand. We aren't robots or some theoretical human beings that can't live without some objective standard on which to base decisions upon. What is "good" and "too good" would still be apparent.
At least, that's my take on it.
If we can admit that things like lucario getting free grabs out of any move is a little crazy and tone it back, I find the idea of finding the idea of toning down the spacies to be repulsive to be repulsive. At least for those who are unapologetic about it.
It's one thing to say "no they shouldn't because we will lose too many fans" because it is on the surface a good concern (even if I think that's not as true as it is made out to be. At all.) But to look at fox and go "Yeah, that's the sweetspot. Perfect and totally unalterable character design" is insanity.
Do people really believe that the game would be so difficult to balance without a premade character or 3 to base it around? Aren't most of the devs good players with some semblance of understanding behind what makes this game good and what makes a character good? I think that if, say, the top 5 characters in the game were eliminated completely (if you include fox and falco) and the team was directed to make the other characters competitive and balanced, it would be about as possible as the task at hand. We aren't robots or some theoretical human beings that can't live without some objective standard on which to base decisions upon. What is "good" and "too good" would still be apparent.
At least, that's my take on it.
Fortress | Sveet
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I would argue that the "completeness" of melee top tiers is design every character should aspire to have. We shouldn't make him less complete just because some characters aren't yet
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