• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

Darky-Sama

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Messages
1,936
Location
Salisbury, Maryland
NNID
Darky-Sama
Yeah, against Kirby's grab game and follow-ups, I rely heavily on ZSS's Down+b. It's her most reliable strategy for avoiding the up air, and she'll still have another jump if he does try to punish her as she's landing.

Just waste the jump if he does start approaching you after the flip, and attempt to punish him right back with something like a Side+b or reverse Neutral+b.
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
Yes her uair is one of the best aerials in the game, as well as having immense priority. I think her spacing game can put a stop to kirby's grab game. Kirby does die easily but he can rack up damage on you pretty fast and lets not forget his gimp game and bairs.
Actually, he meant that ZSS would get hit by Kirby's up air, which is often true if he anticipates it. It might not thought if you aim it away from him, but I'm not sure. I'm used to having to be really careful with down B against players savy on this, especially against meta :(
 

Roxas1988

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
270
Location
Where ever the wind takes me....
Actually, he meant that ZSS would get hit by Kirby's up air, which is often true if he anticipates it. It might not thought if you aim it away from him, but I'm not sure. I'm used to having to be really careful with down B against players savy on this, especially against meta :(
oo ok of course cuz kirby always follows up with uair. O man getting punished out of a down B can be a really really bad situation for Zss especially when up against Meta. Thats a stock if he gimps you out of your down b off the stage. Although i do think Zss has a pretty good MU against Meta if i'm not mistaken.:confused:
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
oo ok of course cuz kirby always follows up with uair. O man getting punished out of a down B can be a really really bad situation for Zss especially when up against Meta. Thats a stock if he gimps you out of your down b off the stage. Although i do think Zss has a pretty good MU against Meta if i'm not mistaken.:confused:
It's not bad anymore except there are a few kinks I need to work out recovery wise. I've been recovering really high up lately so I don't get gimped off tethering, but my last set against my brother was ruined by him up airing me for KOs at the top of the stage after a down B -_- . If he follows up that well she seems pretty vulnerable up there. I think I'll figure it out though, and if anyone has suggestions for that please feel free to contribute. :)
 

Roxas1988

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
270
Location
Where ever the wind takes me....
It's not bad anymore except there are a few kinks I need to work out recovery wise. I've been recovering really high up lately so I don't get gimped off tethering, but my last set against my brother was ruined by him up airing me for KOs at the top of the stage after a down B -_- . If he follows up that well she seems pretty vulnerable up there. I think I'll figure it out though, and if anyone has suggestions for that please feel free to contribute. :)
Wow if your having problems with being too high up then that would show a big weakness to her air game above certain characters wouldnt it? And also, is it better to space with her aerials or would a more direct approach be better with her? Also snakeee, if her air game above is worse than below against meta then i would have to say camping with her would be a more, i wanna say "better option", but then again mk is too fast to camp on sometimes. I've seen your matches against your brother a while ago, it looks like he knows your Zss to no end but you still pull off doing well against him.:) Despite him being MK
 

noradseven

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
1,558
Location
North Carolina
ZSS just has few options below her against most characters, MK has few options against ZSS when he is above her but he has far more than ZSS does.

The main thing with this match is its p. close, but MK wins, MK wins the rock paper scissors more and kills us flat out earlier normally, sure we dish out more damage, but MK just has a better pressure game.

Also ZSS's shield is ****, and you can only run backwards to the edge(very bad idea), and running around someone is always very risky. ZSS is a space controller kinda like diddy kong sure she in someways camps but she must constantly be doing things to control space otherwise she will lose.

It's not bad anymore except there are a few kinks I need to work out recovery wise. I've been recovering really high up lately so I don't get gimped off tethering, but my last set against my brother was ruined by him up airing me for KOs at the top of the stage after a down B -_- . If he follows up that well she seems pretty vulnerable up there. I think I'll figure it out though, and if anyone has suggestions for that please feel free to contribute. :)
I play a solid meta quite a bit I agree recover like a full hop above the stage at all costs, same thing to meta players.

ZSS on the edge vs MK is crazy dangerous he can **** you up with 1 n-air, and we really don't have a safe recovery.

MK on the edge vs ZSS is same thing we can gimp him with 1 lucky d-smash and he has zero safe options for recovery.

Basically it turns into a guessing game and if the person up top guess right they take a stock if they guess wrong they took 10-15% damage and your back on the stage, aka a very bad gamble.

Its kinda hard to say I actually love this match because its a spacing warfare and an aggressive one on most stages the person closer to the center has the advantage and a p. big one, also don't totally forsake the down B sure MK can gimp you out of it but he needs to be in certain places to do that and if you space it right, and your not at 120% damage, you can DI it so you instantly tether and get up on the stage before MK can punish however you will be near the edge and will have to gamble staying near the edge or f-rolling.

However while I said this game is a aggressive I meant spacing wise most of this match invovles us doing safe **** right out of the other ones range, and me trying to bait up B/nado/d-smash, and him trying to bait a d-smash/over B, and trying to predict when im doing my other **** to nado/up B me.
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
Norad, a Meta that knows the match up, or really any char for that matter, will not be getting hit by offstage d-smashes. You simply have to sweetspot the ledge vs ZSS. Actually, Meta has plenty more options than that while being safe from it.
Otherwise I agree...I think. I'm half asleep, got up bc I freaked out thinking I had hw for this class. Back to bed..
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
K probably should've posted this here but yea any ideas on what strategy can help **** diddy kong? And are the bannanas really as affective on Zss as they say?
Yeah, but they're super effective on him as well AS ZSS :D.
If you can manage to get in a position where there isn't banana between you two, and you're holding one, you can do things like glide toss - d-smash - d-smash - dash attack lock - off stage fair. I did this in my last tourney btw.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
Yeah, but they're super effective on him as well AS ZSS :D.
If you can manage to get in a position where there isn't banana between you two, and you're holding one, you can do things like glide toss - d-smash - d-smash - dash attack lock - off stage fair. I did this in my last tourney btw.
This is similar to what I've done against some marginal diddys. If you can get them into a position where the trip on a nanner and you catch them in a dsmash, DA them onto the nanner and dsmash again and go across the stage for massive damage. Seriously we can do so much stuff against Diddy, it's kinda crazy.

IMO one of the critical things about this matchup is just getting used to the physics of the nanners. What does it do when it hits a shield, or trips them? This is very important in helping you to feel comfortable with a nanner.

BTW Nick did you ever debug the nB to JCT?
 

noradseven

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
1,558
Location
North Carolina
Norad, a Meta that knows the match up, or really any char for that matter, will not be getting hit by offstage d-smashes. You simply have to sweetspot the ledge vs ZSS. Actually, Meta has plenty more options than that while being safe from it.
Otherwise I agree...I think. I'm half asleep, got up bc I freaked out thinking I had hw for this class. Back to bed..
ohh its him trying to get off the edge and yeah its mostly fear, I can't think of a safe approach off the edge though.

normal wakeups: u-tilt/block d-tilt/utilt easy
nado: d-smash(he can only recover with nado from certain posistions and if you sit in the right spot he can't punish the d-smash heh).
up B: immediately from the edge, if your standing at just the right distance he can't hit you and a up B is a free punish or he goes to the edge and posistion reset.
teleport up B from below the stage: if you stand in the right spot, the move can't hit you,plus n-air wins that hands down, also you can just d-tilt him out of it his d-tilt will beat it if spaced properly, yes im talking about the one where he woosh hits you out of nowhere then lands and is safe and makes him p. much safe on block.

I mean you can lose this but proper spacing and position can turn MK getting off the edge into a nightmare, for him, of course he can just recover high.

But still its p. hillarious to beat MKs nado with d-smash for a spiker, this rarely happens now but the mear fact that I can do it prevents MKs totally safe recovery.
 

Roxas1988

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
270
Location
Where ever the wind takes me....
Lets not forget the bair beats the nado, so mk using the nado for recovery, if he ever does use which would be foolish, can get ***** out of it. And one thing i've sen recently was spiking with the upb on the edge. Now i know it's risky but would it be effective to actually try and spike with it?
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Wario boards are discussing ZSS if anyone with more exp against him then me wants to go and help out.
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Sorry to bring this up, but Lucario dair apparently can clash/cancel Zamus usmash and even upB (I think), BAS does really well vs. ZSS (more than I thought it would), and while both will want to string aerials by landing the first hit, imo Zamus will get a little more benefit from hers although hers are less guaranteed.
 

noradseven

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
1,558
Location
North Carolina
Sorry to bring this up, but Lucario dair apparently can clash/cancel Zamus usmash and even upB (I think), BAS does really well vs. ZSS (more than I thought it would), and while both will want to string aerials by landing the first hit, imo Zamus will get a little more benefit from hers although hers are less guaranteed.
Yep as far as the usmash, I have seen a clash with the up B but its much rarer and I really wouldn't bet on it.

What is BAS, backwards aireal shorthop???

Also lucario hug the ground we will win the the air not as much as we do against most the cast but still its better if you hug the ground..

Also what guaranteed strings does lucario have we can p. much down B towards the stage after any hit and the worst you can do is a b-air which will normally not knock us far enough to make it difficult to recover and we can ignore the whole mindgames of getting back on the edge and espacing pressure.

Lucario on the other hand has d-air, which can be used against you... but if you predict us right we will get smacked. Also be warned we do have a few true air combos, but most of the time our timing/spacing/situation will not be perfect and you will have a few frames of action.

But against lucarios our up B beats your d-air the vast majority of the time, and at the right damage can reset the situation.

Its still a bad match for us, but thats assuming you hug the ground and make sure we are always above you.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
Well we really didn't get much good discussion but at the same time don't really need much since Kirby boards recently did the matchup. I was kinda hoping for more input, but my plan is to write the synopsis and move on as soon as I get the chance.
 

TheZeroSuit

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
65
Kirby writeup is done, now moving onto:




Donkey Kong:


Strengths:
  • CG 0-60%
  • Comboability will make damage wracking very easy
  • Can punish DK's aerial blind spots and recovery well with dsmash combos
  • Juggle traps are very difficult for DK to avoid
  • Dash lock puts DK in a terrible position to recover
  • Our disjointed hitboxes give us the overall (slight) edge in spacing
  • Better mobility and speed overall
Weaknesses:
  • DKs weight class and stupidly good momentum cancels will give you a very difficult time killing him if you can't get a spike, gimp, or early offstage kill
  • DKs killing ability means 1 mistake and you can die at 50% and up
  • For a fatty DK is surprisingly fast and can keep up with better than others
  • His amazing range will contend and often beat yours
Final Verdict: 55-45​
Matchup Advice:
  • Exploiting Strengths:
    You need to combo this ape to hell and back to make the weight/power factors more even. Use nair, bair, dsmash, paralyzer, grabs, DAs, juggle strings, and anything else you can make up on the spot to build damage. Your goal should be to force him into the positions where he is highly disadvantaged (trying to land while facing you and recovering), and punish him well. In this matchup, once you've found an opening you should shift gears into full on aggression mode, because in most cases DK will have a very difficult time getting back to neutral momentum.

    This is one of the matchups where dsmash if used properly can make a large difference in the matchup.

    Use your speed and disjoints to dance around DK, forcing him to continually approach while you poke at him looking for openings. This is a matchup where it really depends on how well the ZSS can avoid making punishable mistakes with spacing and finding that opening.

  • Minimizing Weaknesses:
    Don't get frustrated when you can't kill DK early, just keep building damage and you'll find an opening naturally, trying to force the kill is one of the things that will get you punished and killed early. In this matchup, bair and uair will probably be very stale, so unless you can get an early dsmash to gimp or spike, fair and side b as juggle mixups will be your most likely killing moves.

    When you start getting into higher "higher" percents (80% luls) avoid doing anything remotely punishable, or you will die. Bair is an amazing move for DK, and thus while it would be a good reliable kill move for him it's also his primary damage builder against you, meaning it will be stale. This means, assuming you avoid ****ing up and getting spiked, that DK will be getting the majority of his kills with uair and smashes. When you're on the ledge, DK may try to charge and fsmash because this works well against some characters. Just drop back jump side b and laugh. Fsmash is also great if you're being stupid and airdodging in next to him, so don't do it. Avoid crossovers at these percents as well, because dsmash, uair, and usmash can punish the area above DK's head and kill at dumb percents.

  • Suitpiece Strategy:
    DKs will often try to approach with bair, if you have a suitpiece it's very easy to downward glidetoss behind DK and bair, walling DK on both sides. Keep him off balance and use the suitpieces as stage control and to help with your juggle traps and you can wrack up easy damage on him.

    However, suitpieces if fresh can also help with ZS's biggest issue against DK, killing. If you can avoid overusing them for damage and more as setup tools, the suitpiece can give you a huge advantage early on by giving you the ability to kill DK early offstage.
  • Approach Alterations:
    You don't have to do it, so don't. Space with uair, bair, dtilt, side b, and paralyzer against DKs approaches, and as soon as you get a hit in your goal should be to keep him off balance through juggles, combos, and edgeguards while he struggles to reset the situation.

  • In the Air:
    DK has excellent aerial mobility, as well as one of the best aerials in the game in his bair, which has amazing range, is fast with little ending lag, and can be used twice in once SH. He also has a fast uair with good killing power. He also has slow and laggy fairs and dairs that are pretty useless outside of punishing offstage mistakes with spikes.

    Now how does ZSS matchup to this beast? She has comparable range and speed, but without gaping blindspots in front of her, as well as disjoints on her legs (DKs attacks are all completely jointed). This means she has the overall advantage in spacing, though his bair is a very difficult move to challenge.

    Focus on landing the uair or bair that will start your juggle or edgeguard, because this is where you will build the majority of your damage.

  • How to Edgeguard:
    DK has to constantly be aware of dsmash, as his primarily horizontal recovery makes it very easy to land. If you do land the dsmash, you can down b spike them, or if you feel like being a flashy asswhole you can footstool him while he's still in stun.

    You can also outrange DK's Up b with bair or fair to knock him out again. However, it's very easy to messup as DK's upb has super armor as some points, if you're caught in it you'll end up generally take a ****load of damage as it pulls you in tornado style.

    If you manage to get a strong hit on DK and he uses up b to momentum cancel, charge a dsmash at the edge, so that if he goes for the edge he'll be stunned and killed. This will force him to try to land behind you on stage, in which you'll have enough time to see this coming and let the dsmash off, turn around and bair or stun him again during his long landing lag.
  • How to Recover:
    DK has a few tricks that you have to be wary of when recovering. First, beware of his two spikes, as they're pretty strong and tend to trade hits if you try to punish them.

    Bair is of course a good edge guarder, though DK is limited mainly to guarding at stage level recoveries, as his jumps don't put him very high up and his recovery limits his ability to go below the stage.

    DK can up b stall when on the edge, with it's super armor and regrab, making it so that if you are recovering low you will probably not be tether the ledge.

  • Special Information:
    DK's Up b is glitched on Yoshi's Island, giving it invincibility and low lag ending.


Counterpick Advice:
  • Stages to Counter-pick:
    • RC puts an emphasis on verticle recovery, something that ZS does very well and DK doesn't at all. It also forces aerial combat, where ZS has the overall advantage and can take advantages of his deadzones
    • Battlefield allows us to juggle DK even better, nuff said
    • FD provides lots of space to run away spacing and baiting the entire time
    • Brinstar has very close blastzones, and while this allows DK to kill you at stupidly early percents, it also makes DK's momentum cancels much less powerful, which is an overall benefit to you. Both characters have tricks on this stage, but the fact that it also helps ZS juggle better puts this in her advantage.
  • Stages to Avoid:
    • Yoshi's Island should be both your strike and your ban every time. The Up b glitch makes stage controlling extremely difficult, enough to make this matchup swing in DK's favor.
    • Japes gives DK more room to momentum cancel which will make it even harder to kill him. This stage also hurts our ability to camp him
 

crifer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,078
Location
Germany, Koblenz
ok, I´m playing often a good ZSS with my DK, and we have always epic close matches.
I´m gonna write in DK´s view.

Strengths:
Power. range. priority. Seriously, if we hit you with a punsh, fsmash or usmash @ 80, you´re dead. dsmash @ 100 uspmash and 9punch, you die @ 60. actually it should not happen that often that we hit with fsmash, but usmash ( against downB) and punsh is good.
range. we have one of the best melee ranges in the game, and ftilt can cancel out your b and sideb.
if we hit with all hits of a grounded upB you get 36 %, which is in that case, your half stock.
bair is a move you should watch out for, bc we can do 2 in one sh, with suprisingly good range ( it can go through your downb as well).
When your on theedge, you´re screwed. I know every little option you have. you ledge attack sucks and get eysily outanged by ftilt. downB gets wrecked by bair or usmash (death). stand up and shield will get you ftilted and your back on the edge.
edge guarding can be a risky. we can gimp you with bair, spike you with fair or dair, but you can spike us ith downB, too. so it´s all about spacing.
we´re fat *****. we live usually to 150%. that´s a problem for you, bc you die at 80.

Weaknesses:
A good ZSS has a amazing stage control with sideB, neutral b. we´re obviously a big target. who of you didn´t get a 50-70 % string on a fattie? really, you can combo as to hell, uair usmash upB all string together nicely. you could thinkthat´s a huge problem for us, but if you think about how long we live and how long you live, yeah.
your armor part´s are diffcult to get around, but if you´re not careful we can use them against you pretty well (ever seen a glide toss by DK? 1/4 fd length).
ZSS can limit our options pretty well, but we´re lucky that we have such amazing bair.
If it goes to killing, you can kill us @ 150 if your sideB is fresh, bair can work and downB(difficult to hit).
If you´re in the air, you can have aproblem bc dk can juggle and punish you well, your dair or downB can work, but also can be punished.


I would say it´s a good 50:50 match, but it´s also stage dependant.

you want to try, to limit DK´s options with sideB and neutral b, and we will go for an aerial approach with bair, maybe you can punish that. we´re should not approach on the ground, bc you can grab us out of the sheild easily if you fire a neutralB.
if DK is inside, you will have a problem. don´t cp jungle japes, brinstar, delfino or yoshis island against DK.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
Watch DK try to sweetspot the edge with his up-B, after having to use a jump to make it back.
D-smash > Footstool > Laugh
DK cannot recover.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
SH instant bair all day, DK has no real answer to it and it should hit him standing barely. I will have more to say later but that's it for now.

And before norad says it (he probably will anyway) DO NOT GO TO YOSHI'S kthx.
 

noradseven

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
1,558
Location
North Carolina
SH instant bair all day, DK has no real answer to it and it should hit him standing barely. I will have more to say later but that's it for now.

And before norad says it (he probably will anyway) DO NOT GO TO YOSHI'S kthx.
Also shield jab :(, most frustrating thing DK has, basically pull DK in the air and lol combo him, he really has no answers to attacks below him and has a huge hitbox enjoy :D.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
As much as this seems like it should be a really easy matchup just due to how well we combo **** DK, it's really not easy. It takes a while to get used to DK's range and speed combination, and keep in mind that unless you gimp or spike him he's living stupidly long.

I feel like dash lock hurts him particularly bad if he gets caught in it just due to the nature of his recovery.

If DK ever gets in a juggle situation, he's going to take so much damage it's rediculous.

His approach options aerially are pretty limited, if he faces backwards you know exactly what's coming, if he faces forwards he's either going to side b or airdodge and try to utilt you. Just take a step back and charge a dsmash either way he's gonna eat it.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
Nick hyping his new trick :laugh:
Nope. This version I've known for months. I throw it out here and there, but nobody listens. Oh well.

I should really get around to getting something to record vids so I can put one together... ^^,

Also, DK has a HUGE weakness in front/below him (while airbourne obviously) so **** him up there.
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
DK can definitely sweetspot without getting D-smashed (well I'm pretty sure). Also, the DK I've played a lot in friendlies, Will, mixes up his recovery really well somehow (Bum used to do the same actually). I'm still at a good advantage offstage though, and I'll usually go for a f-air/b-air
 

Roxas1988

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
270
Location
Where ever the wind takes me....
DK can definitely sweetspot without getting D-smashed. Also, the DK I've played a lot in friendlies, Will, mixes up his recovery really well somehow (Bum used to do the same actually). I'm still at a good advantage offstage though, and I'll usually go for a f-air/b-air
awww man i've fought will in friendlies as well. He loves using the SA up b alot sometimes. It was frustrating how often he would shield poke me with that Foward-b. DK can kill Zss early, but at the same time he does build up damage pretty fast. So Snakeee in your point of view whats the best approach?
 

Darknid

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
449
50:50 matchup IMO.

As a DK main, Zamus' Dsmash will get my recovery on occasion. Even if I know all my **** and mix my recovery up a lot, it simply will happen a few times. You should be using this as much as you can, because there's so little that can be done to punish it and you can't do much else to bother DK's recovery. Dsmash DK's recovery, it works.

As for Zamus' feared side-B, it isn't safe against shieldgrab approach. The reason being that DK being within his range, even if he can't immediately punish you, is bad news for you. He will use his tilts and bair to hit you before you can hit him because your long range moves come out late, while his are normal speed. This isn't to say that you shouldn't use it, but if DK knows you're about to, he can put you in a bad situation.

You do have tools against him. Your number 1 priority is to get him in the air, because your juggling abilities will damage him a lot before he gets back down. Get him in the air and stay under him. Don't let him get too far to the side(remember, his air speed is better than yours, you can use your ground speed to stay under him). Uair is extremely good against DK, it will generally beat his attacks.

You kill him at like 200%, just so you know. I've played some good zamus players and even with a free hit of their choice(from a stun attack), they couldn't kill me before 170% unless I was right next to the edge. Your best bet at killing early will be to bair him while he's far offstage. On the other hand, he kills you at like 70% with punch and 90% with Dsmash. If he has a 9-wind ready, he can kill you as low as 40%, and in the 20s near the edge of the stage. This means trying to grab DK with that extremely punishable grab is extremely dangerous.

Also, when you recover, a good DK will grab the ledge then begin bairing you. If he hits you with one, you've probably just lost your stock(unless he makes some stupid mistake). However, you can usually just use downB and your high jump to make it over.


So just to sum everything up, Dsmash his recovery, get him in the air as soon as you can and as much as you can to juggle, and never let him get within his range. Always be either too close for him to be comfortable or too far for him to hit you.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
I agree largely with darknid. Also I was wrong, the SH isntant bair doesn't hit DK, but it's still really nice against him. It's safe on block WHEN SPACED.

Dsmashing his recovery sin't that reliable, but you can do a lot of other things to him while he's recovering. Bair beats it, so you can literally just bair or fair him out of it and kill :p
 

crifer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,078
Location
Germany, Koblenz
ok, I´m playing often a good ZSS with my DK, and we have always epic close matches.
I´m gonna write in DK´s view.

Strengths:
Power. range. priority. Seriously, if we hit you with a punsh, fsmash or usmash @ 80, you´re dead. dsmash @ 100 uspmash and 9punch, you die @ 60. actually it should not happen that often that we hit with fsmash, but usmash ( against downB) and punsh is good.
range. we have one of the best melee ranges in the game, and ftilt can cancel out your b and sideb.
if we hit with all hits of a grounded upB you get 36 %, which is in that case, your half stock.
bair is a move you should watch out for, bc we can do 2 in one sh, with suprisingly good range ( it can go through your downb as well).
When your on theedge, you´re screwed. I know every little option you have. you ledge attack sucks and get eysily outanged by ftilt. downB gets wrecked by bair or usmash (death). stand up and shield will get you ftilted and your back on the edge.
edge guarding can be a risky. we can gimp you with bair, spike you with fair or dair, but you can spike us ith downB, too. so it´s all about spacing.
we´re fat *****. we live usually to 150%. that´s a problem for you, bc you die at 80.

Weaknesses:
A good ZSS has a amazing stage control with sideB, neutral b. we´re obviously a big target. who of you didn´t get a 50-70 % string on a fattie? really, you can combo as to hell, uair usmash upB all string together nicely. you could thinkthat´s a huge problem for us, but if you think about how long we live and how long you live, yeah.
your armor part´s are diffcult to get around, but if you´re not careful we can use them against you pretty well (ever seen a glide toss by DK? 1/4 fd length).
ZSS can limit our options pretty well, but we´re lucky that we have such amazing bair.
If it goes to killing, you can kill us @ 150 if your sideB is fresh, bair can work and downB(difficult to hit).
If you´re in the air, you can have aproblem bc dk can juggle and punish you well, your dair or downB can work, but also can be punished.


I would say it´s a good 50:50 match, but it´s also stage dependant.

you want to try, to limit DK´s options with sideB and neutral b, and we will go for an aerial approach with bair, maybe you can punish that. we´re should not approach on the ground, bc you can grab us out of the sheild easily if you fire a neutralB.
if DK is inside, you will have a problem. don´t cp jungle japes, brinstar, delfino or yoshis island against DK.
your opinion?
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
7,245
Location
NC
Run away and laugh. You destroy any DK that goes into the air and you're faster on the ground. Basically, it's all about waiting for your openings. If he goes in the air, use Plasma Whip and Paralyzer. If he stays grounded, you don't necessarily outrange him, but you're far more mobile, and can choose your openings much more safely than he can.

DK should ban FD if he knows what's good for him. That stage is ridiculously in ZSS's favor. If he doesn't, always take him there.

60:40, maybe 55:45, except on Yoshi's Story, which you will, of course, be banning.

DK can definitely sweetspot without getting D-smashed (well I'm pretty sure). Also, the DK I've played a lot in friendlies, Will, mixes up his recovery really well somehow (Bum used to do the same actually). I'm still at a good advantage offstage though, and I'll usually go for a f-air/b-air
He can, but that depends on how he times the upb, and how you time the dsmash. So there's no reason not to dsmash. Just mix it up. Predict whether he's going to avoid the dsmash or not.
 

Darky-Sama

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2008
Messages
1,936
Location
Salisbury, Maryland
NNID
Darky-Sama
Basically, it's all about waiting for your openings.
60:40, maybe 55:45, except on Yoshi's Story, which you will, of course, be banning.
^
These.

NEVER take DK to Yoshi's Island or even give him the option of counter picking it. He can kill way too easily on it ...and that ridiculous up+b from the ledge can let him land laglessly due to the slanted siding. Biggest mistake of my life when I didn't ban that stage against OOK.
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
I think this match is pretty straightforward. DK has relatively weak approach options and can have a lot of trouble getting inside. When he tries hell often get launched up and you can combo him for a TON of damage. He's helpless from the front and below. He's about as easy to juggle as like ROB.

Really ZSS destroys him pretty badly it it wasn't for weight and power which have been discussed already. The keys to this matchup will be staying patient when he's at 170% and you still haven't KOed him and staying aware of his massive range.

Also make sure you're aware of some of DK's tricks. Never shielf a headbutt with a low shield or you're going to be hit with a fully charged Smash. Be ready for various cargo throw shenanigans some people may try. DK also has a pretty strong gimp game. ZSS has the tools to recover safely but you'll have to stay on your toes. If you slip up a little you can get gimped.

I think this is definitely in ZSS' favor, provided the ZSS is prepared. 60:40 on most stages. Possibly a bit worse on battlefield. I've never taken DK to Brinstar or RC. I think Brinstar should be ok but RC I'm not sure about. FD is meh and YI should be banned.
 

TheZeroSuit

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
65
Done with DK now, moving on to:



Toon Link:


Strengths:
Weaknesses:
Final Verdict:​
Matchup Advice:
  • Exploiting Strengths:


  • Minimizing Weaknesses:


  • Suitpiece Strategy:


  • Approach Alterations:


  • In the Air:


  • Attacks to Look for:
    • xxxx
      Description:
      How to Counter/Avoid:
      DI: 0°
      SDI: 0°

  • How to Edgeguard:


  • How to Recover:


  • Special Information:



Counterpick Advice:
  • Stages to Counter-pick:
  • Stages to Avoid:
<character> Contributors:
xxxx​
<character>'s Thread
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
TL can gimp ZSS with his D-Smash at really early %s, so if you see a TL Camping near the edge, try not to approach, unless you REALLY want to.. Don't worry about it too much because the TL shouldn't be able to land it that easily.

And of course, there's his projectile game. Do your best to get around it.
TL is pretty light, so I think ZSS has an easier time killing. Don't take my word for it though, cus I'm not entirely sure.

Watch out for his Zair, since it has a long reach, but ZSS's Side B outranges it. If you see a TL airdodging, there's a good chance he's going to Zair. Powershield it and punish.

Watch out for B-Air "combos". All of his Up moves kill.

N... yea. That's my 2 cents.
 
Top Bottom