Official "Who is going to return?" topic

[Archaic]

Whoa whoa... you guys dont know what low tier or high tier mean do you ? Ill fill you in. High or low tier means the amount of tournaments people have one won with that specfic character. Its not based on how good or bad a character is. ALOT of people still remain oblivious to that fact.

--Yes you did.

TIERS ARE BASED UPON FACTS AND STRATEGIES: Tiers are based on statistics and strategies, along with Tournament results.

Character potential is how good or bad a charater is. And yes i do think thats what its mostly about, because look at the MLG rankings. Mew2King is ranked 5th and Mewtwo is bottom tier. Isai is ranked first in doubles and he plays as C. Falcon who is middle tier along with KoreanDJ.

 

[Goldkirby]

--Yes you did.

TIERS ARE BASED UPON FACTS AND STRATEGIES: Tiers are based on statistics and strategies, along with Tournament results.

Character potential is how good or bad a charater is. And yes i do think thats what its mostly about, because look at the MLG rankings. Mew2King is ranked 5th and Mewtwo is bottom tier. Isai is ranked first in doubles and he plays as C. Falcon who is middle tier along with KoreanDJ.

Hahaha, M2K does NOT use mewtwo. Last time I checked, M2K mains Fox.

 

[Archaic]

Alright thats true but i do remember seeing him play as Mewtwo at some point....

 

[Rhyme]

Since this topic has degenerated into tier discussion, I may ask a now valid question...does anyone here know when they were supposed to be voting on the new tier list?

As far as I am concerned, the tier list is based off:

1) Character specific advantages. The more characters a single character counterpicks, the higher that character's ranking. This also applies to characters who have a general advantage in a matchup.

2) Overall character ability. If one character has the ability to be played amazingly well, developed gamers will utilize these advanced strategies to raise the capability of their character. The tier list changes because we constantly discover new things that players are able to do.

3) Has nothing to do with the characters people choose to play in tournaments. In fact, people choose certain characters because of their rank in the tier list. You may notice that far more people play Fox than Mewtwo. This is because Fox does better in far more matchups than Mewtwo. A player can choose any character they want regardless of that character's position, but the tier list is structured as such because the people who play certain characters generally win. If we analyze the situation, we discover why someone who picks Fox wins more often than someone who picks Mewtwo, or Falcon, or Marth.


In total, the tier list doesn't mean much if players are close in skill level. A character low in the list could easily counter a much higher character, which means you must double with another character if you play, say, Fox. Why isn't Peach higher on the tier list, I never met a Peach main who said he/she needed a secondary.

 

[Ipslne]

The only thing I don't understand here is that Rhyme is the most sensible smash player I've seen on the boards, and she sticks around this topic and schools everyone in logical SSBM theory for no practical gain.

I had to take a break from all the arguing... It's too bad I'm back so late, there's no input left for me to give on the tier list.

 

[Stryks]

Still rhyme makes a good point about the tier thing... and rhyme is a she...

 

[fleapy]

One's thing for sure. Ice climbers shall probably return.

 

[Wrath`]

One's thing for sure. Ice climbers shall probably return.

I dont think the ice climbers popularty was high so i wont exspect or care if they are in it.

 

[shadenexus18]

One's thing for sure. Ice climbers shall probably return.

I'll say this much, if they return then I guess that's cool(no pun intended), but I won't much sleep if they don't come back on Brawl.

 

[Stryks]

I dont think the ice climbers popularty was high so i wont exspect or care if they are in it.

Their popularity is way Higher thanx to melee, and theyre the only team characters so far, theyre unique, I too tought they were gone, but after facing the facts, I gotta say they will PROBABLY return...

 

[shadenexus18]

Seeing how they are the first duo (two for one deal) in a Smash game I say they have a chance. Also, they are very, very, very, "retro."

 

[Tera253]

Everyone is going to return hands down.

or, they should at least.

~Tera253~

 

[Rhyme]

The only thing I don't understand here is that Rhyme is the most sensible smash player I've seen on the boards, and she sticks around this topic and schools everyone in logical SSBM theory for no practical gain.

I had to take a break from all the arguing... It's too bad I'm back so late, there's no input left for me to give on the tier list.

Not true. Occasionally, I get schooled in return and then learn something new. Might I remind the lot of you, I have yet to get an answer to my question. Also, you shouldn't consider my gender while discussing what I had to say in my posts. Gender is meaningless and doesn't make one person better than any other.

As for Sensai, if you stop by to check up on this topic, my insufficiency lies in my inability to spell. I do use big words, but my vocabulary is limited to the words I can find in Web Dictionary. Don't be fooled into thinking I am smart.

 

[Ipslne]

I wasn't saying you were never wrong... I was just saying you were sensible. Meaning you accepted new information and didn't latch on to your point, being too stubborn to see any possible flaws.

And I hope that gender-bit wasn't directed towards me. I always make a point to use "he/she" if I'm unsure... I was corrected by someone later (who for some reason thought it was a sin).

And now I'm kind of curious as to what your question was refering to... Is there a vote on the tier list? And who is it organized by?

 

[Rhyme]

Wow, it's been a while since you posted this(wonders if user or someone else will be answering this question). The gender thing was not directed at you, it was directed at people with comments like "and all this coming from a girl". No one else has ever been as extreme as with that comment, just voicing my opinion.

My question was when are they voting on the new tier list? I believe I heard about it on SmashBlog, apperantly a new tier list is supposed to be coming out, and people are voting on it. Since I thought the tier list was based on facts and not people's opinion(vote) this confused me. Therefore, I was hoping some better-informed user could explain this process to me.

Not stubborn? I actually considered myself a fairly stubborn individual. If you present an argument that makes more sense than mine, I may accept it because I am quite a logical individual. That has nothing to do with the fact that, once I am set that my idea makes sense, it is usually dificult to change my opinion. Maybe I am not as stubborn as I thought I was? Not to toot my own horn, but my friends and family tell me that I am extremely stubborn. Oh well...


EDIT: I'm going to make a habit from now on of not quoting a post if I am the next reply to the post I am referring to. I was not always as sensible as I am now. Just ask Stryks, HiddenTiger, or better yet, go visit some of my posts from when I first joined Smashboards. I learned that it was easier to understand what I was saying if I organized my thoughts for others.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

I think the tier list is debated in the Back Room where they list advantages and disadvantages of each character, then say which one has more advantages and less disadvantages than another. It's a complicated process that I know almost nothing about...just that the BRoomers debate this stuff and come up with a new list.

How a character does in tournaments may also be a big part since they may show new combos or moves that work really well.

Why are we even talking about the tier list anyways. I don't think it has anything to do with who's returning in Brawl and who's not.

 

[Rhyme]

Umm...no...the tier list doesn't have much to do with the thread topic, but the topic tends to change after several hundred posts. I try to stay current. That way everything can be said within only a few threads and I don't have to go wildly searching Smashboards to say everything I want to say.

 

[J-Red]

I don't think Dark Samus should be in brawl. It would be cool but that would be 3 characters from Metroid and they would all be the same person in different forms. I think they'd put a different character from Metroid before adding another form of Samus. That would be like having Mario, Dr. Mario, Paper Mario, Frog suit Mario....etc. But that's my opinion.

 

[Stryks]

Ok:

1) Whose going to eturn topic, seeing how dark samus wasnt in melee, I dont know how the hell hes going to RETURN...
and
2) Dark samus is metroid prime using the phazon suit as a base, thus it aint samus even tough having samus in her name, he is NOT the samus we use in melee and metroid prime, its a totally diferent person, how can u explain dark samus and samus fighting in mp2? how can samus fight herself??... anyway saying dark samus is samus, is like saying mario and wario are the same person...

 

[Rhyme]

Ouch. It's all fine and dandy that you think that, but you should visit the thread for discussing what Samus villain should be in Brawl. Then again, I guess you response doesn't exactly fit in there either.

It isn't 3 Samus, it's 2. It says on the Dojo that Zamus is not a pure character addition, which suggests she will share a character slot, which in turn implies that adding DS would make 2 Samus. Actually, Dark Samus is Metroid Prime and not technically Samus at all.

Either way, don't jump out of your shoes...Nintendo did add 2 versions of the same character as appropriate(Mario and Doc), but that is as far as they will go. Doc will probably be gone, Paper Mario is not a far stretch, however I could never visualize Frog Mario. If they wanted to arrange some fancy situation involving a Mario with all the Super Mario World 3 powers and call that a character...maybe...but not one frog costume. Unlike other suggestions, I think a suit does not expand on Mario's capabilities as much as several other items, which Nintendo could add, would.

 

[Devastlian]

I don't think Rhyme was that serious about keeping all her conversations in one place, J-Red.

I do, however, believe that Dark Samus should have lower priority than other characters to help ensure that this game has a cast that has characters of all shapes and sizes. Which is why they need to show the rather large lummox that is DK so I can get my large character fix. (And thus, we're magically back on topic. You're welcome everyone.)

 

[Ipslne]

This "impure character addiction" thing seems to be going to people's heads. True, it depends on how you read it and where your bias is; but even so, the description for Zamus is far too vague to support anyone's argument. You can tell yourself that you're sure you know what he's talking about; but seriously... read Sakurai's words over and over. Eventually you'll realize that he's just trying to stir the crowd (rather effectively).

And I'm pretty sure this is all talk for the Confirmed Character Disc. thread? Yeah, we can go from topic to topic in this thread; but c'mon... the CCD thread is RIGHT NEXT to this one ;p

One more thing: I was just as confused about the tier list thing, that's why I wasn't quite sure if Rhyme's question was serious or not.

 

[shadenexus18]

I don't see why they don't want to leave all the original characters in Brawl. They could at least either make the character frames smaller on the selection screen, or make two pages, or maybe even a scroll bar. Just because they're putting better and more popular characters in doesn't mean they have to replace the others. Even better, like everyone else has said, they could get new movesets for the clones.

Oh well.

As far as characters (new characters & characters that are returning) I don't think that the game should just include revamped retrograded Nintendo characters (Hint Hint...Pit). It should have a mix of them so the game character roster is balanced old & new characters. That includes characters that we have never heard of, characters before our time, & characters that we are all familar with. Just because Sakurai favors "retro" characters shouldn't mean that's what the character roster should strictly be focused on ( Hint Hint: Blue Bomber Megaman over X)

End of story

 

[Ipslne]

I agree with you to a certain extent, but you have to realize that Nintendo has very few "original" characters to call their own... at least after the early 90's. Nintendo has sold the rights to many of their original characters, and most games only for Nintendo systems are done in cooperation with third party developers. In Brawl, Nintendo claims to be working with these developers as well as some who weren't Nintendo exclusive. This process probably takes a long while, so we haven't necessarily seen any characters from newer games yet (other than Snake... who was first introduced on the SNES in the late 80's anyways).

Examples of what I'm trying to get across: Donkey Kong appeared in SSBM because he was originally from Nintendo's "Donkey Kong" arcade game, featuring Mario as well. The reason no one saw any form of Diddy Kong is because that character was introduced by Rare, who did all of the Donkey Kong Country/Land/etc.. games.

To reiterate: It's not so much that Sakurai favors "retro" characters. It's more that he has little choice. All third-party characters that would be in Brawl wouldn't be his decision. It's mostly corperate arrangements made outside of his power. Almost all soley first-party characters were introduced in the 80's and early 90's.

 

[shadenexus18]

I agree with you to a certain extent, but you have to realize that Nintendo has very few "original" characters to call their own... at least after the early 90's. Nintendo has sold the rights to many of their original characters, and most games only for Nintendo systems are done in cooperation with third party developers. In Brawl, Nintendo claims to be working with these developers as well as some who weren't Nintendo exclusive. This process probably takes a long while, so we haven't necessarily seen any characters from newer games yet (other than Snake... who was first introduced on the SNES in the late 80's anyways).

Examples of what I'm trying to get across: Donkey Kong appeared in SSBM because he was originally from Nintendo's "Donkey Kong" arcade game, featuring Mario as well. The reason no one saw any form of Diddy Kong is because that character was introduced by Rare, who did all of the Donkey Kong Country/Land/etc.. games.

To reiterate: It's not so much that Sakurai favors "retro" characters. It's more that he has little choice. All third-party characters that would be in Brawl wouldn't be his decision. It's mostly corperate arrangements made outside of his power. Almost all soley first-party characters were introduced in the 80's and early 90's.

Whew, you make a solid argument mi hermana! I'm stumped! Mad props!

 

[Rhyme]

Yeah seriously, Ipslne, what Shadenexus said only more eloquently.

So, if Nintendo has hardly any "original" characters anymore, doesn't that mean popular choices such as Diddy Kong(sticking with your suggestion) would be third party characters? If so, there won't end up being very many of them. Sakurai probably likes retro characters, not because they are old to us, but they are probably what he took part in inventing or even playing.

Maybe it is true that we over-analyzed what Sakurai said about Zamus, but I try to go with popular opinion on what his statements mean. Also, to whoever mentioned Bomberman, I hadn't thought about him but he does seem slightly more likely now that I reconsider(after Sonic of course).

 

[Stryks]

I gotta say, the 3rd 3rd party character to not be included, is megaman, seeing how sonic has practically his slot in brawl im hoping megaman make sit in, I like bomberman, but prefer good ol' original blue bomber...

And yeah sakurai stated he likes retro characters over new, thus im hoping duck hunt dog, mach rider, balloon fighter a clu clu make it in, I like retros myself, me playing games since I was 3 years old and all...

 

[Devastlian]

Nintendo has sold the rights to many of their original characters, and most games only for Nintendo systems are done in cooperation with third party developers.

What rights are you talking about?

(other than Snake... who was first introduced on the SNES in the late 80's anyways).

Snake first appeared for the MSX computers in 1987 and his game was then ported to the NES a year later.

Examples of what I'm trying to get across: Donkey Kong appeared in SSBM because he was originally from Nintendo's "Donkey Kong" arcade game, featuring Mario as well. The reason no one saw any form of Diddy Kong is because that character was introduced by Rare, who did all of the Donkey Kong Country/Land/etc.. games.

But there were Dixie and King K. Rool trophies and Rare was credited on the title screen for their designs in SSBM.

 

[rhys_013]

characters returning

ive heard that from melee all charcters exept ice climbers and mr game andwatch are making an apearence

 

[Rhyme]

*Deep Breath*

rhys, are you refferring to the 4 month old article on 1Up about a french radio interview with Sakurai? I hope you're not.

Is there anything we can do to discredit and destroy this article for good?

 

[Stryks]

Maybe kill the author of the article with a flamethrower and then throw his/her ashes to a river maybe?

seriously rhys, I know ur new, but do NEVER mention that rumor again...

 

[Ipslne]

What rights are you talking about?

Other than Donkey Kong to Rare? There's Zelda to Panasonic (or something similar that started with a "P," I don't quite remember) and then later to Capcom after Panasonic destroyed Zelda's characters' images.

And if you're wondering specifically which rights, they were sold character and character manipulation rights, and in some cases production rights (Panasonic received partial rights to the Zelda franchies on a whole... ended up making a rather awful cartoon series and three games for their own system that flopped horribley. Nintendo broke the contract and transfered to Capcom, who helped make Oracle of Ages and Seasons).

Nintendo also had rights in the Mana Series, yet sold them to Square in early production (mainly because Square had just gotten bigger at this point, and wanted full rights).

Snake first appeared for the MSX computers in 1987 and his game was then ported to the NES a year later.

Not quite. Metal Gear 1, featuring "Big Boss" as the main character, appeared in 1987 for computers and was then ported. Solid Snake only appeared on the SNES for Metal Gear: Solid Snake, which didn't hit any other system that I know of (though I still hold the possibility that Konami sold it from there considering its recent appearance in MGS2 and 3) And to clarify, I'm not talking about Solid Snake's character being sold, but the game content itself.

But there were Dixie and King K. Rool trophies and Rare was credited on the title screen for their designs in SSBM.

And why is it they couldn't get rights for things like the motion censor bomb that was clearly from Goldeneye, another Rare/Nintendo game? Something tells me that Nintendo didn't have Rare's full support in SSBM, especially after their fallout when the N64 almost flopped due to the use of cartridges.


Too much legal talk I'm already bored.

 

[Rhyme]

Ipslne and Devastlian, how can you two know so much about legal rights? All that stuff makes my brain cramp.

 

[Ipslne]

It's not so much that I know a bit about legal rights, it's more that I look into the games I like. Probably more than I should.

 

[Komayto]

Er, I hope I don't make myself look rude with this post, but where are you getting this from? Because you've got quite a few things wrong here.

Other than Donkey Kong to Rare? There's Zelda to Panasonic (or something similar that started with a "P," I don't quite remember) and then later to Capcom after Panasonic destroyed Zelda's characters' images.

Heh, that was Phillips. But they never sold Zelda. They just let them borrow the rights to make a few games and in the case of Capcom they supervised the production so they wouldn't make the same mistake they did with Phillips.

And if you're wondering specifically which rights, they were sold character and character manipulation rights, and in some cases production rights (Panasonic received partial rights to the Zelda franchies on a whole... ended up making a rather awful cartoon series and three games for their own system that flopped horribley. Nintendo broke the contract and transfered to Capcom, who helped make Oracle of Ages and Seasons).

The cartoon series and the CD-I Zelda games were unrelated. And Nintendo didn't break any contract they had with Phillips. The only contract they broke was with Sony.

Brief history lesson!
Nintendo wanted to make a disc-based enhancement for the Super Nintendo and made a contract with Sony. Then Nintendo broke it and made another contract with Phillips. Sony later went on to create the PlayStation. Anyway, Nintendo dropped it altogether and Phillips just made their own interactive multimedia CD player called the CD-I. But part of the contract was that LoZ would appear on the console. Nintendo didn't want to make it so Phillips asked some company to do it.
Ah, the horror of CD-I Zeldas.
The Oracles are completely unrelated to those games and were made quite a while after that. It was already the fifth generation when OoA and OoS came out.

Nintendo also had rights in the Mana Series, yet sold them to Square in early production (mainly because Square had just gotten bigger at this point, and wanted full rights).

Had rights to the series? Source? Because I'm sure that the planned first game in the series, Seiken Densetsu: The Emergence of Excalibur was planned to be made by Square, not Nintendo.

Not quite. Metal Gear 1, featuring "Big Boss" as the main character, appeared in 1987 for computers and was then ported. Solid Snake only appeared on the SNES for Metal Gear: Solid Snake, which didn't hit any other system that I know of (though I still hold the possibility that Konami sold it from there considering its recent appearance in MGS2 and 3) And to clarify, I'm not talking about Solid Snake's character being sold, but the game content itself.

Here is a nice history on the series.
For one, the first Metal Gear starred Snake and Big Boss was the final boss. Second, MG2:SS was on MSX2 and no SNES MSG games were ever made. And Big Boss was the main character only in MGS3: Snake Eater.

And why is it they couldn't get rights for things like the motion censor bomb that was clearly from Goldeneye, another Rare/Nintendo game? Something tells me that Nintendo didn't have Rare's full support in SSBM, especially after their fallout when the N64 almost flopped due to the use of cartridges.

Uh, that weapon was the Proximity mine from Perfect Dark in the Japanese version. In the other versions, the item's name and look were based on Goldeneye. Both of the games were developed by Rare. I'm sorry, but I don't see your logic here.

 

[Dazza!]

Yoshi, DK, Luigi, Peach, Jigglypuff. They truley make the game lol. Basically I'm for all the ones with oversized heads returning, we would be lost without them!

 

[Ipslne]

I don't have time to reply to that now (I've gotta get going to a job interview as well as do some more research. I wouldn't say I'm positive on everything I've said, but confident enough to say it with some sort of certainty.)

 

[fabianmo]

This are the ones I think are coming back:
Luigi,Jiggly,Capt.Falcon,Yoshi and Ganondwarf
That it for now

 

[Rhyme]

What was ever the purpose in giving some characters an element of randomness in their attacks? People like PEACH, G&W, and Luigi...I don't think I quite understand why.

 

[Ipslne]

Er, I hope I don't make myself look rude with this post, but where are you getting this from? Because you've got quite a few things wrong here.

Not rude, you do point out some good things. Not to mention, I'm not always right. I do most of my research on the internet, and I can't say I put full faith into everything I read online.

Heh, that was Phillips. But they never sold Zelda. They just let them borrow the rights to make a few games and in the case of Capcom they supervised the production so they wouldn't make the same mistake they did with Phillips.

Beh, Phillips... Panasonic... they both make DVD players ;p


You're right there. I hadn't described the situation specifically (though you can't "borrow" rights for money. There is still a contract involved.) Also, I did say that Capcom "helped" Nintendo make those two games.

The cartoon series and the CD-I Zelda games were unrelated. And Nintendo didn't break any contract they had with Phillips. The only contract they broke was with Sony.

I didn't say the cartoon series and the CD-I games were related, though the rights that Phillips had to the franchise played a hand in the making of the cartoon. And yes, as far as I've seen, there was a contract that was broken... with minimal consequences for Nintendo. Rumour has it that Phillips went outside the terms of the contract, giving Nintendo the right to nullify it. Though, my source on that is too much talk in various gaming forums (not enough to say I'm sure, but enough for me to say it with some sort of certainty).

Brief history lesson!
Nintendo wanted to make a disc-based enhancement for the Super Nintendo and made a contract with Sony. Then Nintendo broke it and made another contract with Phillips. Sony later went on to create the PlayStation. Anyway, Nintendo dropped it altogether and Phillips just made their own interactive multimedia CD player called the CD-I. But part of the contract was that LoZ would appear on the console. Nintendo didn't want to make it so Phillips asked some company to do it.
Ah, the horror of CD-I Zeldas.
The Oracles are completely unrelated to those games and were made quite a while after that. It was already the fifth generation when OoA and OoS came out.

Right, but the contracts they had for the hardware are mostly irrelivant (other than the planned Zelda game). As I heard, Phillips wasn't really allowed to have made the games for their own system, but it supposedly wasn't clear in the contract. There were seperate agreements made for the hardware and software aspects; but true both were made because Nintendo wanted that CD add-on.

Also, the relevancy of the Oracle duo is that Capcom was helping Nintendo make them... I was merely pointing out which games specifically.

Had rights to the series? Source? Because I'm sure that the planned first game in the series, Seiken Densetsu: The Emergence of Excalibur was planned to be made by Square, not Nintendo.

My source for this one I wouldn't neccessarily put my money on. Maybe six years or so ago in the Nintendo Power forums, there was a huge debate over why Squaresoft disowned Nintendo. The most obvious and probably correct reason was that Nintendo ditched the CD idea for cartridges in the N64. However, this possibility rised up and caused a huge fuss... where Nintendo was planning on working with Square on the Mana Series all together, and Square didn't want Nintendo's name on it. A deal apparently was made where Square was given full responsibility for the game. People had speculated that the success of the game in Japan had made Nintendo jealous (if we can personify corperate entities) and was the beginning of a fowl relationship. That I'm not entirely sure is true, but asking around showed several believers and non-believers in various communites.

Here is a nice history on the series.
For one, the first Metal Gear starred Snake and Big Boss was the final boss. Second, MG2:SS was on MSX2 and no SNES MSG games were ever made. And Big Boss was the main character only in MGS3: Snake Eater.

I stand corrected here. I've been a huge fan of the MGS series, but I've never played either of the Metal Gear games. From what I understood of the story, you play Snake's predecessor in MG1... though that must have been me getting confused amongst all the babbel towards the end of MGS2. However I'm confused about this MSX stuff... as most of the fan-speak I've seen hovering around MGS3: Subsistence involved people saying "HAY THIS GAEM WILL HAVE THE MGX SERIES PORTED FROM THE NES/SNES!!! ZOMG!"

Though I do take heed of what I hear on the internet, it's not bad to be corrected for something when I'm horribley mistaken ^_^

Uh, that weapon was the Proximity mine from Perfect Dark in the Japanese version. In the other versions, the item's name and look were based on Goldeneye. Both of the games were developed by Rare. I'm sorry, but I don't see your logic here.

Lastly, my point here is the same... Why, under the Motion Censor Bomb's trophy, does it say "TOP SECRET" where the game it's from is supposed to be? What I'm getting at, is that they could've said Goldeneye if Rare was fully backing them (or Perfect Dark if that's the case... I liked Goldeneye better so I guess I attributed it with that because of my bias).

But thanks for that, I like it when people actually do some constructive posting instead of getting pissed off when they think/know someone else is wrong.