Official "Who is going to return?" topic

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I doubt we'll be getting things one at a time. There's too much to fit in before release if we go item by item.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well, maybe not you know: a post for a bomb-omb and nothing else...but I don't think we'll be seeing what we've seen today every day.

 

[Enzyme]

Looking at the musicians roster, there are a couple of guys with only one game to their name. Possible hints to who's going to be in? He did say it was risky posting it...

 

[Katy Parry]

Zelda....do u think she'll return?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yeah but Sheik won't. Hmmm, perhaps it's better to check the official site once in a week? So that you'll be less disapointed with the little bits of information you get everyday? Maybe I'll do that, but if the daily updates are big I can't help but check everyday.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

There's no way to resist checking every day. I'm going to be getting up early every weekday and turning my computer on to check for an update. I really can't wait to see what tomorrow's going to bring. If I wait to long and miss out on a character and one of my less dedicated friends tells me, I'll be disappointed.

 

[Creo]

Same here. I couldn't not go to it if I tried...
Some of the music people are interesting though. I saw Meteos and I like that hypnotic space music.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I'm seeing that some composers only had one game under their belts. Namely the person who did NiGHTS and the person who did Kingdom Hearts. I wonder if NiGHTS and Sora will be in this? That would be incredible.

The only other person with one game under their belt is the guy who did Metal Gear.
There's Snake.
What does that say about the other two?

 

[Creo]

NiGHTS had good music and would be a more formidable character than Sora.
Can't wait fo the NiGHTS game for Wii.

 

[Red Exodus]

There's also the musician from DMC so you can't really point to one of the other, all we know is that musicians from 3rd party games are helping with the musical side of Brawl. I don't like speculation so I try to say as far away from it as possible.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Just read my first article about the Media Summit.

Reggie says MP3 will reinvent the FPS genre, and that he wishes you'd play more Wii Sports instead of going to the movies.

Hopefully we'll get some more Brawl info as the night goes on!

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

Are the updates going to come at 3 A.M. every day?

 

[SWGamer1138]

I saw that they have the musician from Devil May Cry, it wouldnt hurt to have some metal music in Smash if only Dante was a character.

 

[Johnknight1]

Are the updates going to come at 3 A.M. every day?

Who knows, I checked around on sites like IGN, and they have no clue. But, if it does happen around 3 PM on the east coast (a bit before 12 AM here=11:54 or 11:55 is when I first got it up) again, then it is safe to assume.

Still, I'm going to check, just because I can't stop myself, I don't dream of stopping myself, and I don't want to stop myself! So ya, if it happens again at 3:00 AM where you live, then you should stay up, but I don't want to persuade you like last time! Sakurai is messing with our heads, making us lose sleep, just to see the new characters. I can't say this enough, Sakurai is the master and creator of mindgames!

Side Note: Dante hasn't appeared on a Nintendo system ever before, so his chances are zero=true. However, Megaman's chances are likely higher because of this, and look at my sig, and you can tell I'm happy!

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I wish Japan was cool with the East Coast. They love to watch us lose sleep and suffer.
They're only being nice to you and giving you the info at 12 cuz of that whole Pearl Harbor thing.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I wish Japan was cool with the East Coast. They love to watch us lose sleep and suffer.
They're only being nice to you and giving you the info at 12 cuz of that whole Pearl Harbor thing.

That comment's in good taste.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

I plan on having no boundaries in my life when I grow up...

 

[Red Exodus]

I think people are looking to deeply into the musical cast. Could it be that they're just there to play music? They aren't stuck to companies like game creators are.

 

[MasterGary]

Red you should have expected something like this. ANY little piece of information that is released , some fan-boys/girls will come up with there own theories and speculations.

 

[Chief Mendez]

^^^
Zomg T3h Kid On Rollrskates From Streets Of Rage 2 Is N Brawl Cuz Koshiro Z Doin T3h Muzak!!1!

 

[Rhyme]

Red you should have expected something like this. ANY little piece of information that is released , some fan-boys/girls will come up with there own theories and speculations.

*Cough*

I'd also like to needlessly bring your attention to another picture. It's the "group photo" (fox, pikachu, mario, wario), and if you look, Fox's foot from his Nair (so I'm guessing) overlaps Pikachu's figure, while Pikachu appears in his midair dodge pose from Melee, behind Fox's outstretched leg. So is Wavedashing semi-confirmed? After all, airdodging is what indirectly caused WDing, or "landfall special" as the developers originally called it.

After digesting this Brawl news throughout the day, I've decided that it's not as I originally called it, "disappointing". (+20 to Chief's personal satisfaction) Now that I have had the chance to read it over, it was a swell update. There was also the promise of new week-daily information which is exciting. (I am proud of my new word.)

 

[Devastlian]

*Cough*

I'd also like to needlessly bring your attention to another picture. It's the "group photo" (fox, pikachu, mario, wario), and if you look, Fox's foot from his Nair (so I'm guessing) overlaps Pikachu's figure, while Pikachu appears in his midair dodge pose from Melee, behind Fox's outstretched leg. So is Wavedashing semi-confirmed? After all, airdodging is what indirectly caused WDing, or "landfall special" as the developers originally called it.

After digesting this Brawl news throughout the day, I've decided that it's not as I originally called it, "disappointing". (+20 to Chief's personal satisfaction) Now that I have had the chance to read it over, it was a swell update. There was also the promise of new week-daily information which is exciting. (I am proud of my new word.)

That's not what landfallspecial is. :/ It's when you land from being prone, like from most characters up-B or airdodging which is why it shows up for wavedashing.

Also, I liked this update. I require at least one to two songs a week from now on, Mr. Sakurai. Bare minimum. I eagerly can't wait for these next 4 and a half hours to pass. :/

 

[Chief Mendez]

I'd also like to needlessly bring your attention to another picture. It's the "group photo" (fox, pikachu, mario, wario), and if you look, Fox's foot from his Nair (so I'm guessing) overlaps Pikachu's figure, while Pikachu appears in his midair dodge pose from Melee, behind Fox's outstretched leg. So is Wavedashing semi-confirmed? After all, airdodging is what indirectly caused WDing, or "landfall special" as the developers originally called it.

I'm pretty sure that's Fox's Bair. Also, I don't see his blaster in hand like in the 2nd trailer, what gives? But Pika's definitely air-dodging. But who really cares about wave-dashing outside of the tourney crowd?

It's not an "advanced technique" like everyone says. It's a glitch, just like snaking in MKDS. I don't do it (partly because I don't have the patience or want) because every pro match I've seen simply devolves into SHFFling all over the place and wavedashing constantly...even when there's no enemy to attack. Can you say "boring"?

...But I'm sure you'll still be able to do pull them off. Maybe.

 

[Keta]

There's no way of knowing whether wavedashing will return unless it is said, or is seen in a video(which it does look like Fox wavedashes backwards before dash attacking in the world trailer). It all depends on how the creators feel about wavedashing. I'm sure they realize it is a huge part of the smash world now. Though, if they feel it takes away something the want in the game, they could easily remove it with a code to stop horizontal movement upon connecting with the ground during an air-dodge.

 

[Rhyme]

And I quote:

With some practice, wavedashing becomes second nature. Most who do it get to the point where they can accomplish it 100% of the time with no problem. Wavedashing is not always necessary to your game, as there are some pros that don't wavedash, however it is very useful. It is also not a glitch, or in any way cheap. It is merely an aspect of the physics in the game, and is referred to in the actual game's debug as "landfall special" (the term used to describe the event of landing during an airdodge, meaning the developers knew you could airdodge into the ground). It's the most versatile of the advanced techniques and can help ANY character's game. It's not necessary, but it sure as hell isn't useless. It's moving while standing still! So experiment with it. I'm sure you'll find some nice ways for it to improve your game.

...from the Nintendo dot com forums in the archives of information about Melee. There's a good page at least about wavedashing here, I quoted only what was necessary to prove my point.

The SHFFLing all over the place is used by professionals who don't want to let their game slow down. Standing still can be compared to a pitcher in baseball, once you get warmed up, and then take a break, it takes a bit of work to get started again. Like it or not, people play this way in tournaments because it's what works, and since I'm semi-part of the "tournament crowd" I should know. On a more personal note, since I've gotten better, I do stand still after KOing someone, because to me it looks like showing off and I respect my opponents.

Also, I'm not sure "what gives" with Fox's blaster not being in hand. It's possible that some change has been made between then and now, and with the game still technically in "development"...THEY CAN DO THAT. More than likely it's nothing more than Link putting his shield on his back to Fsmash like in the KOing Mario picture. Fox does the ariel then gets his gun back.

 

[Red Exodus]

I don't have anything to add about the Fox thing but I think I must add my piece to the advanced technique discussion.

Chief, snaking and SHFFLing are in no way the similar. I'm sure pros can win matches without SHFFLing by making up for it with other ATs but with snaking you either snake or come last, which is a huge difference. Also, the people that WD and SHFFL all over the place either don't know how to use ATs or they're faking out so their opponent can make a mistake.

I believe WDing was put in place to prevent us from air dodging into or through the stage, which is worse than moving while standing still.

 

[Chief Mendez]

...I still don't like it. Hmph!

I guess it's just personal preference. I know two people that do it, but I still beat them most of the time without it. So yeah, it's not as bad as snaking (why play online at all anymore?), but I've always thought it looked unnatural and wrong and all that (and it does).

More to the point, I don't see how it's considered a major aspect of Smash Bros. gameplay. When a game is in the possesion of basically every console owner...it's hard to get that sort of penetration. It's not like every (or even most) Smash player knows about, much less frequents places like SWF.

Again...it just looks weird. A character crouches and drifts backwards (while staying in the same crouching position, no less) by some invisible power, creating a huge gust of white smoke in the process. That's my main problem with it.

In conclusion...yeah, I'm for it's deletion.

 

[Devastlian]

That post about wavedashing's so old. And from the n-sider forums. That thing about the landfall special was misproven when someone on here experimented with it more to find out that it applied to a lot more things. It's from landing out of a disabling attack, like most up-Bs some forward-Bs and air dodging, that produce the puffs of smoke similar to A moves (non-disabling B moves don't produce any landing effect). In fact, that's (partly) how we're able to disprove that those instances that people think characters are wavedashing in the SSBB trailers because the characters don't landslide special.

I agree, Chief Mendez; wavedashing should produce blue sparks like turbo power sliding in Mario Kart.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I agree, Chief Mendez; wavedashing should produce blue sparks like turbo power sliding in Mario Kart.

A cheeky one, eh?

I stand by what I said. It's not like we'rejust getting Melee with better graphics, new stages and new characters. We're going to have different physics and techniques, just like the shift from 64 to Melee. Hopefully they take out wavedashes, and add in something that's actually a skill the developers made to be used, rather than an exploitable flaw.

 

[Rhyme]

But you slide significantly less when landing from a move like Fox's overB or ANYONE's upB than from airdodging. If you say that the deffinition of that word has changed since that article was written than I'll follow that, the article itself is admitably very old. Still, no character in Melee slides any significant distance after an ariel A attack, so we shouldn't be saying that since characters in the Brawl trailer don't slide after ariel attacks, there must be no wavedashing.

Nintendo could simply add, rather than give-take when making Brawl. We didn't really sacrifice any of the movement physics (aside from nerfed L canceling, and even that's a technical aspect which affected movement) when transitioning from Smash64 to Melee. Not being able to wavedash, although it simplifies Melee, it makes Smash64 less fun than I remember it.

Also, sorry if I got a bit off my handle with that last post, but it really gets to me when people insist that WDing is a glitch, and especially that "it shouldn't be used because it's a glitch".

 

[Chief Mendez]

Also, sorry if I got a bit off my handle with that last post, but it really gets to me when people insist that WDing is a glitch, and especially that "it shouldn't be used because it's a glitch".

No, I understand that it's not a glitch (like, say, being able to jump to hidden areas [replete with legendary Pokemon!] of Diamond and Pearl in early Japanese versions by surfing while in the Elite Four), but I also believe it wasn't intended to be exploited like it has.

 

[Rhyme]

Haha, I'd imagine that several developers had "WTF" running throught their heads when us gamers starting WDing all over the stage on Youtube.

 

[Devastlian]

But you slide significantly less when landing from a move like Fox's overB or ANYONE's upB than from airdodging. If you say that the deffinition of that word has changed since that article was written than I'll follow that, the article itself is admitably very old. Still, no character in Melee slides any significant distance after an ariel A attack, so we shouldn't be saying that since characters in the Brawl trailer don't slide after ariel attacks, there must be no wavedashing.

I think that's because you lose most of your momentum by the end of those moves those other moves and they have more elaborate ending animations that they don't slide. The Fire Fox and PK Thunder (the only moves I can think of that you can angle into the ground) either glide along the ground or bang the character against it (if you go straight down). With airdodging you're hitting the ground while you still have full momentum and the landslide special grounds your character while moving the air dodge distance combined with your character's traction. The air dodge also doesn't have an actual/lengthy landing animation (which could be a way to "fix" it) like the B attacks which is why wavewhatevering's possible.

Also, I only mentioned A attacks because of the similar smoke animation. They're seperate, I know, but they make the same smoke.

 

[Rhyme]

Smoke...is created anytime there is movement between the ground and the character. I wouldn't use smoke as the definative reason here, unless there is some other implication I'm neglecting.

With Ness' PKT you are following the curve not sliding. The same can be done beneath levels and along walls. However, I do realize that sometimes, particularly on Marth's story, when you Fox Illusion you will slide up the little slope near the side of the stage. That's probably the better of the two examples you gave.

I'm still not exactly sure how you are suggesting they would fix this problem though. Even if they prevent your character from using horizontal momentum upon contacting the ground and turn it into downward momentum, I'm sure some player will figure out a way to take advantage of the program. You'll see people change direction after SHs from a full run (Falcon players), or people will find some creative way of edgehogging or dropping through floating platforms with it. Peach players might use it to cancel animations of drawing vegetables from the ground. Understand what I'm getting at? I don't think that this is an easily fixed problem, and hopefully Nintendo will leave well-enough alone and focus on other aspects of the game.

 

[Johnknight1]

No, I understand that it's not a glitch (like, say, being able to jump to hidden areas [replete with legendary Pokemon!] of Diamond and Pearl in early Japanese versions by surfing while in the Elite Four), but I also believe it wasn't intended to be exploited like it has.

WD is like the advanced tech and fighting of Melee, where the players made the game what it is. That is what made Melee great, and having the deidcated players make the game into the most advanced fighting game is what set Melee apart from DOA, Street Fighter, Tekken, and Soul Calibur. Lots of things weren't meant to be exploited, but it worked out fine in the end after all, with tons of tourneys every week, and many players, who playing competitively. Now how did that work=?

 

[Chief Mendez]

But all those examples you gave can be prevented with smart programming. There aren't any "exploitable flaws" in Virtua Fighter 5, so why does Smash Bros. automatically have to have them?

EDIT - Johnknight1, Melee isn't the most complex fighting game ever made. It might be more so than DOA or Tekken, but not SF and SC. I won't even approach VF. What made/makes Melee great is it's huge amount of fan content, and it's easy to grasp, approachable controls. There aren't convoluted grab-escapes, roman cancels, juggle combos, or psyche bursts. All these tournaments are a by-product of the everlasting dedication it's fans have towards the game because of said fan-service and "Othello-esque" controls. It certainly is a unique experience where the fans literally changed how the game is perceived (although I'll stress that the majority still sees it like I do).

I'm not anticipating Brawl because I can't wait to see all the new feint-dodges and guard impacts...I just want to play as my favorite Nintendo characters as they knock the living daylights out of each other.

 

[Rhyme]

I only assumed that Brawl would have exploitable flaws because Melee had them. A game like Melee can be so all-encompasing as far as ideas and techniques that bits and pieces can easily be overlooked. There will likely be some hole or flaw which the developers might overlook. Naturally I can't prove that they will overlook a flaw or that it will even exist.

 

[ElChibo]

I haven't read the past 200 some pages of this so il just throw in what i think:
I think that the original 8 will stay, and from melee, everyone but game and watch, pichu, ICs, and doc will return.

 

[Devastlian]

Smoke...is created anytime there is movement between the ground and the character. I wouldn't use smoke as the definative reason here, unless there is some other implication I'm neglecting.

But each specific action produces different smoke. Dashing, landing from free-fall, colliding with the ground after being hit into the air (IE missing a tech), non-disabling B attacks (which have no smoke), and the landslide special and aerial A attacks, which have seperate enough circumstances to tell them apart. (And, I'll reiterate, that I'm not saying A attacks have anything do with the stuff I'm saying about wavedashing...they just have the same landing graphic.)

With Ness' PKT you are following the curve not sliding. The same can be done beneath levels and along walls. However, I do realize that sometimes, particularly on Marth's story, when you Fox Illusion you will slide up the little slope near the side of the stage. That's probably the better of the two examples you gave.

That's why I said glide. Your character isn't rendered prone until the end of the animation when your momentum is used up so you don't slide during the landslide special. It waits until the animation is over and, if you land during the animation (for all the other proning B attacks) your character stops with the landing animation.

I'm still not exactly sure how you are suggesting they would fix this problem though. Even if they prevent your character from using horizontal momentum upon contacting the ground and turn it into downward momentum, I'm sure some player will figure out a way to take advantage of the program. You'll see people change direction after SHs from a full run (Falcon players), or people will find some creative way of edgehogging or dropping through floating platforms with it. Peach players might use it to cancel animations of drawing vegetables from the ground. Understand what I'm getting at? I don't think that this is an easily fixed problem, and hopefully Nintendo will leave well-enough alone and focus on other aspects of the game.

No no no...I meant like how when you do the IC's forward B and you land while they're spinning, they do this standing stop with their mallets held in the air, looking like they're absorbing the spin momentum. Air dodging just has the character standing at the end of the animation which is why you can attack out of a wavedash. If they gave the air dodging landing animation some substance other than just standing there, that would hamper the wavedash's usefulness in attacking and make it like rolling for movement and "fix" it's exploitationness.

 

[Chief Mendez]

I only assumed that Brawl would have exploitable flaws because Melee had them. A game like Melee can be so all-encompasing as far as ideas and techniques that bits and pieces can easily be overlooked. There will likely be some hole or flaw which the developers might overlook. Naturally I can't prove that they will overlook a flaw or that it will even exist.

I guess that all depends on how many people are actually working on the game. I think it's something like 50...but I also think that only counts for the people making the actual game run. So there'd be a separate team for the online system, and for the website, and so on.

It also relies on the size of the QA team, and how long the game's QA time is.

Also, think about this: when Melee was in production, Nintendo was basically just making a sequel to a good (but not Mario 64/Ocarina of Time good) selling game. I hardly think they intended to make the best selling GCN game of all time not even a year after launch.
But with Brawl, they not only have the resources (post-64 Nintendo < post-DS Nintendo), but they know how well this game can (and will) sell, so I'm expecting alot more effort put into it. In away, that effort's already showing. Melee was in development for a little over 2 and a half years. Brawl (by, say, November '07), will have had only about 2 years (it started in October '05) under it's belt, yet we're promised about 40 characters, an online mode, and God knows what else.