Official SWF Tier List v8

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

good point guy, i shouldn't be DQed for using falco in mid tiers at whobo

Did Xyro ever respond to your request to make MK legal in mid tiers at WHOBO?

WAIT WTF YOU SPELLED FLAOC WRONG

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Which characters are top 3 vs MK in the current meta game? I'm curious since most people don't agree with pika:MK being even.

I'd say ICs, Falco, not sure on 3.

Fox, Falco and Diddy. After watching Anti/Otori vs. 9B at apex, I can't see how the ICs/MK match up can be even

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Which characters are top 3 vs MK in the current meta game? I'm curious since most people don't agree with pika:MK being even.

I'd say ICs, Falco, not sure on 3.

Oh man how did I miss this?

Jigglypuff, Flaoc and Zero Suit Salem

 

[Tesh]

I can confirm that MK will be legal at WHOBO.












































































.








in project M.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Did Xyro ever respond to your request to make MK legal in mid tiers at WHOBO?

WAIT WTF YOU SPELLED FLAOC WRONG

Dafuq is a flaoc

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Dafuq is a flaoc

Who are you and what have you done with Stef?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think MK kinda ***** Diddy.

Peach's nair, bair, uair and dair are all very good aerials. You're behind in her meta gheb.

Decent =/= very good.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Diddy, Falco, Fox and ICs all do the best against mk

And every single one of them could be argued to be as bad as mk's other top tier match-ups like marth, snake, etc... (if that's what you mean by *****, gheb. If you are saying that diddy/mk is worse than that you're insane or playing somewhere without scrooging/planking rules).

 

[Deathconsciousness]

swaggin stupid

 

[Ghostbone]

Decent =/= very good.

Well it's lucky Peach's aerials are very good then.

Amplified by her ability to float/land whenever she wants during them.

Diddy vs MK is good if MK can't plank/scrooge
Though that last part applies to every MK matchup except like uhh...Snake and ROB?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Who are you and what have you done with Stef?

I Maddened her and she quit brawl forever. She has been replaced by her identical twin, ANUS_DESTROYER

 

[Deathconsciousness]

>tfw you came on cat
>tfw it hiss at penis

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think MK ***** Diddy. I think Diddy has too few top players that play him at full potential.

 

[Player-1]

MK ***** diddy

 

[BlueXenon]

I know very little about the Diddy Kong MK match up, but does Metaknight have any reliable way to get past Diddy Kong's peanut/banana camping? With the stalling rules, he is going to eventually need to approach.

 

[Diddy Kong]

He can approach by being MetaKnight. I don't see MK having a huge advantage, but rather view it as 55-45. It's close. For a MetaKnight - matchup.

 

[Ghostbone]

He gets past by doing Meta Knight things, especially when the banana on the ground runs out.

 

[BlueXenon]

But Diddy Kong has two bananas, and he takes both out at different times. So when one disappears, he will still have another one to punish approaches.

 

[Xyro77]

Did Xyro ever respond to your request to make MK legal in mid tiers at WHOBO?

my response to that stupid question is "NO"

 

[Player-1]

IDK why people think bananas for some reason make everything punishable on our shield. Like people overrate diddy's OoS options by a lot, I heard esam on stream at sktar say diddy's banana throw is frame 2...like wtf... I wish it was frame 2 then diddy would probably be the best character. Our fastest throw OoS hits on frame 6, no better than most grabs in brawl so basically, for CQC game it's the same as most shield grabs....


except worse since our fastest throw is dthrow which most of the time we don't want dthrow unless their moves are horribly spaced on our shield. We want fthrow which is frame 7 or bthrow which is frame 9, not to mention most of the time we also want to glidetoss it which adds a frame to all of our throws so our most common OoS option is basically frame 8.

the reason people think diddy's OoS options are so good is because he can punish long range stuff quickly. For example, MK's fsmash spaced on shield usually isn't able to be shield grabbed, but diddy can just throw a banana at him to punish. If people just apply their CQC pressure game on diddy's shield while he has a banana in his hand then maybe people will stop sucking so much vs diddy.

And all the top diddys right now (which is pretty much just me, zinoto, and adhd) agree MK is diddy's worst MU and it's definitely a -1 and closer to -2 than a 0, except adhd idk wtf he thinks because when we talked about it he just gave me some dumb response like "mk is hard" or something

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

1)Peach is good because her close range buffered attack patterns are very safe on shield and are capable of dominating nearly any character actively trying to hit her, truly here, kill power isn't relevant, fair isn't even the move she uses when being played at top level until kill percent (or are "camping" yourself) and nair and bair are capable of killing fresh too.
2)Her complete and utter downfall is when she's facing opponents who don't want to be near her for any reason at a percent/stock deficit, her ability to get past horizontal mobility + cautious defensive choices is extremely lacklustre (opponent works for avoiding her fair).
3)She can't make come backs.
4)She can't abuse weight (Snake/Wario/etc) nor out-camp opponents (Diddy, Falco, MK, Snake, Olimar, etc).
5)She can abuse an extremely safe with high technical prowess win+combo/trade+comeoutontop play style.

1) I think this should be explained in more detail else I might be missing something. As I see it Peach has two options on shields which involve either float or turnip. From there her shield antics are very akin to what I see as jab cancels.

Hardly any character in this game can claim to jab cancel -> move without the opponent being able to counter in some way. Only Falco/Snake can sort of claim that and make it work. Falco its jab -> shield (so only defensive guaranteed) and Snake its jab -> ftilt provided no SDI and hitting with the proper hitbox on jab1. In that respect, most jab cancels -> move are easily beaten or avoided by simply jabbing right back, hold shield, Nair, jump, etc. So anytime you go for a jab cancel you have to play what I can only see as a guessing game with some information about past interactions. Its not like you can jab and be guaranteed success. That's sort of how I see Peach's shield antics.

Peach with float is only safe on shield by float-canceling her attacks properly. For example, dair -> aerial is not legitimate shield pressure as there is plenty of time between the ending lag and the start-up of the next aerial to sh -> bair as falco while chasing peach in the air too and many other characters with equally similar (or faster) aerials and jump squats can accomplish this as well. Anyway, person iin shield eiher has to mess up their timing or drop shield flee and let peach be safe. Only when she float cancels her aerials into a ground option does it become safe shield pressure. But from there, she is stuck in a situation where she has to pick some ground option and play jab cancel type scenario.

Turnips I am not sure about.

2) I see her biggest downfall being her horrible aerial attributes when getting down after getting hit. Airdodge invincibility is stripped to half compared to other characters. One of the worst fast falling speeds. Decent aerials, but not exceptionally disjointed. Bad 2nd jump in both acceleration and height.

Airdodge/FF combination on a character like DDD is good because he can slip past opponents with invincibility and reach the ground more quickly than they can thus switching the situation. With Peach that combination is not very feasible and only low to the ground to avoid the horrible ending lag.

She cannot really threaten with say a sudden FF large/disjoint aerial either that say Snake could apply. Her special stalling options like Counter is sub-par as its only beneficial from one angle. Not compared to say Fox/Marth/Ike.

Her other stalling method with float does not really gain her anything. DDD/MK could jump multiple times baiting you into trying to attack, then immediately fall back down to avoid you or gain stage that you left open by leaving the ground. Her falling speed does not allow for that tactic. Any character can also alter their flight path by 2nd jump or using a special jump (diddy/zss). Peach does not have that option either as her slow accent upwards and height severly limit there usage when compared to a character with a much faster acceleration upwards such as Marth/MK UpB or Falco with FH/2nd jump Bair.

Point is there are a variety of aerial defensive maneuvers most characters can use. All the ones peach has access too are worst (or close to it) compared to every other character that can perform that very same maneuver. Ganon gets more success from fastfall air dodge far better than Peach.

Her ability to get past defensive gameplay when at the deficit in a match I do not think is really any worse or better than most characters in the game. She is no Ivysaur, Falcon, Bowser, etc. simply because she has turnips to work with. But neither does she have the fast ground speed like ZSS, Pikachu, or Fox as another potential attribute to get past defensive play.

3) Hmm.... I am not sure the relevance in this. Provided percentage is really the only difference, then she can rack up quick damage from a hit at low percents. A stock deficit is harder, but it all depends upon player interactions and mistakes made. Its certainly no get hit by Dthrow tech chase -> quick edgeguard damage and Utilt by snake for clearing a stock, but seems too much of a absolute statement to make.

4) Attributes of midtier certainly.

5) As stated early, I am not sure of this extremely safe ability she has. Also, as mentioned before trading with peach is not something I think is very beneifical for peach unless she has the lower percentage because she'll just get to the ground last and therefore lose any advantage from a trade.

 

[Shaya]

With noice buffering and spacing, the combination of bair and nair can be strung together on shields before most characters can do anything about it. MK can't shuttle loop it for example.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

With noice buffering and spacing, the combination of bair and nair can be strung together on shields before most characters can do anything about it. MK can't shuttle loop it for example.

If you roll away after Peach hits your shield with bair she can do nothing about it, even on read. The loss of stage control is a worthy trade-off because Peach can't get the opponent trapped in a poor spot unless he's in the air. The biggest mistake you can make against Peach is spotdodging. You can beat Peach's "pressure game" with rolling, economical use of shield and beating her aerials head on - any character can do that.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Not Yoshi

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoshi's not a character.

 

[RaptorTEC]

You don't use proper grammar.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I Maddened her and she quit brawl forever. She has been replaced by her identical twin, ANUS_DESTROYER

Does this mean Double Jigglypuff will never be?

 

[Ghostbone]

Ugh Xeylode
You can't say she's bad at getting back to the ground, since her dair's ridiculous hitbox beats every upair besides like MK/Marth and ones like ZSS/TL/Yoshi with very specific spacing. And her mobility isn't so bad that they can't just run around and jump at you from the side or something, lol. Sure she doesn't get down with b-reversals and air-dodges, she just beats whatever attack you throw at her.

Dair is safe on shield against like everyone besides like MK/Marth especially since you can often follow it up with bair/nair or something to beat out whatever they try to do OoS. And that's if it doesn't just poke it. Easy shield cross-ups + jab mixups and such make her shield pressure pretty amazing lol.

And all the top diddys right now (which is pretty much just me, zinoto, and adhd) agree MK is diddy's worst MU and it's definitely a -1 and closer to -2 than a 0, except adhd idk wtf he thinks because when we talked about it he just gave me some dumb response like "mk is hard" or something

The top players of every important character (except like Pikachu rofl) say something similar about their character vs MK >.>

 

[BlueXenon]

Are there any characters that can simply outspace Peach's attacks and prevent her from using shield pressure?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Meta Knight and Marth

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Guys, it's time. This is my 2000th post, and I'm giving it to you, the followers of the Official SWF Tier List v8 thread.

I present to you

The Official SWF Tier List v9

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Tier:

Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff has unparalleled aerial prowess. She is capable of getting early kills against any character via gimps, or she could use her excellent mobility to play a camping/spacing game that is extremely difficult for any character to approach.

SSS:

Mewtwo, Roy, Doctor Mario, Pichu, Young Link
These characters were so obviously broken during the development process that Sakurai decided to remove them from the game. Many people complained about this decision, but if these characters had been added Sakurai would have been widely criticized for leaving such overpowered characters in the game. This was essentially a no-win situation for Sakurai, but in the end he made the best decision for game balance.

SS tier:

Diddy Kong
Diddy Kong is a unique case. During development Sakurai wanted to give him a unique mechanic: the ability to make other characters trip. Due to an unforeseen error, this caused other characters, even in matches which did not involve Diddy Kong, to trip in random circumstances. Because of this, he is given the 7th spot on my tier list.

Olimar
Olimar is awarded the 8th spot because of his Pikmin. He can turn a match from a 1v1 to a 7v1 at any point in a match. Outnumbering his opponents by such a large margin makes Olimar a tournament threat at every level.

Ice Climbers
Similar to Olimar, the Ice Climbers are given such a high spot because they have a numerical advantage against their opponents. Outnumbering your opponent is an advantage in any form of Combat, and Smash Bros is no different.

King Dedede
As with Olimar, King Dedede has the ability to summon allies at will in order to outnumber the opponent.

S tier

Pokémon Trainer
Pokémon Trainer also outnumbers his opponents, though not in the same way as Ice Climbers of Olimar. Pokémon Trainer can choose from 1 of 3 different Pokémon to gain a tactical advantage in whichever situation he faces. Being able to keep is other 2 Pokémon fresh while the opponent gets tired gives him another tactical advantage.

Zelda/Sheik
Sheilda also has the tactical advantage of being able to switch between 2 options in order to better meet any challenge. She is placed below Pokémon Trainer because she only has 2 choices, and the reserve character is not kept at peak performance.

A tier

Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Samus contains a plethora of futuristic technology that gives her a technological edge on her opponents. When she is wearing her Power Suit, she excels at long range combat and can keep opponents away from her with a great degree of efficiency. When she discards the suit, she gains extra agility and becomes an expert at close quarter combat, and she can continue to attack her opponents from afar by throwing pieces of the suit at them.

Snake
Snake, like Samus, is very well equipped for a combat setting. He has many weapons that he can use to make the arena a minefield, with various traps that the opponent must avoid in order to even reach Snake, at which point Snake can show that he is a master of hand-to-hand fighting, and a threat to any character.

ROB
ROB is a Robot. He feels no pain. He will just keep going until he obtains victory, or suffers defeat. Luckily for the Robot, he has the tools so that victory will come more often than defeat. He can take out the Gyro at any point and use it, along with his laser eyes, to harass his enemy from across the stage. His exceptionally long arms give him great ability at close range, allowing him to

Flaoc
Flaoc has an exceptional ability to control the stage at both long and close range, with his lasers and fantastic jab and grab, allowing him to take on any character head to head to head.

Wolf
Wolf is great at controlling space with his fantastic aerials as well as his great laser. He can kill opponents very early and is great at protecting himself while dealing out massive damage.

B tier

Pit
Pit has a sword, magical arrows, and his most dangerous weapon, Divine Assistance. He can annoy his opponents from any position on the stage, and will be very difficult to kill due to his god(dess) given ability to fly. He can kill enemies fairly easily, and is exceptional at racking up damage.

Lucas
Lucas has amazing Psychic abilities, and is great at weaving around his opponents and racking damage quickly with multi-hit moves. He can kill easily with his extremely powerful smashes and easy setups into kill moves.

Ness
Like, Lucas, Ness has great psychic abilities and his great at racking up damage. While he isn’t as adept at moving around the stage, he can kill just as easily and can hold his own against many top tier characters.

Toon Link
Toon Link has great speed, and a huge number of projectiles he can use to keep foes away from him, including arrows, a boomerang and bombs. He’s not inept at close range though, as he can cut into his opponent’s chances of victory with his Sword, and at midrange he has his hook shot to keep his opponents at bay.

Link
Link is essentially a slower, more powerful version of Toon Link with greater range. His toolset makes him a big threat to many characters.

C tier
Metaknight
Metaknight has amazing speed, 6 jumps, and great priority. However he has trouble dealing with foes who can challenge him from a distance, has he doesn’t have the range to deal with campy foes. He is also fairly light, making him easier to kill than most other characters.

Marth
Marth has great range with his sword, Falchion. He can keep enemies at bay with large swipes, and the deadly tip of the sword. Like Metaknight, he has trouble with long distance assaults. He can kill easily with powerful tipped smashes; however he has a poor recovery, making it easy to kill him fairly early in his stock.

Ike
Ike is power. Power is Ike. Ike’s sword Ragnell is huge and powerful, giving him great range and exceptional killing power. Like Marth and Metaknight, he has trouble with long distance fighters and can be killed early.

Mr. Game and Watch
Mr. Game and Watch has great kill power and an excellent recovery, but he is one of the lightest characters in the game, making him fairly easy to kill. He also has trouble dealing with long range opponents, though this is slightly offset by his bucket.

D tier
Peach
Peach is exceptional at racking up damage at low percent, though she has a lot of problems killing opponents and has a terrible vertical recovery. Her chance to randomly pull items such as bombs and swords out of the ground prevents her from being lower on the list.

Pikachu
Pikachu is quick, has an excellent grab game, and a fairly good projectile. He has some troubles killing, but does have non-guaranteed setups into kills moves on many characters. He is also light and dies easily.

Lucario
Lucario has great power, when he’s behind. This is not a desirable quality for competitive players, who want to be in the lead throughout the whole match, which is the best way to guarantee victory.

E tier

Wario
Wario has aerial mobility that Rivals that of Jigglypuff, and he has great kill power. However, he is a fastfaller and a large target, and doesn’t have the greatest recovery, making it easy to kill him.

Luigi
Luigi has great kill power, but that’s all he has. His recovery is decent, and he’s light. He has very low traction, making it difficult for him to punish enemies when they hit his shield.

Mario
Mario is an inferior Luigi; he has less kill power, a worse recovery and dies more easily. The only thing he has over Luigi is a better out of shield game.

Yoshi
Yoshi’s inability to attack out of shield cripples him to the point of near-uselessness. He has a semi-decent projectile and a command grab, but those assets are not enough to overcome his huge flaw.

Bowser
Bowser is strong, and he has a good out of shield option with his up special. However, he is slow, and has a poor recovery.

F tier

Sonic
GOTTA GO FAST. Yes Sonic, speed is an important factor in Smash Bros, but so is being able to kill. Which you cannot do.

Donkey Kong
DK has power, and he’s kind of fast, but he has a poor recovery and his strongest kills moves aren’t fast enough to land easily.
Captain Falcon

Falcon has speed, and kill power, but his kill moves aren’t reliable and require a read to land. He is completely obliterated by characters with superior range or projectiles.

Ganondorf
Ganondorf has POWER. And nothing else. Maybe he should team up with Sonic?

Kirby tier
Kirby
Kirby copies his opponent’s abilities, which means he’s only as good as his opponent is.

Fox tier
Fox

Fox sux lol

If you have any complaints about this list please email me at idc_aboutu@stfu.com

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel like mario and luigi should be switched

at top level play, luigi's weaknesses are more exploitable and mario's well-rounded playstyle becomes more viable as a tool-kit for dealing with any situation (like Pokemon Trainer, but in one character and obviously nowhere near as good)

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I am just not sure who you are talking about at the 16 th spot. I was following you perfectly having no disagreements but then suddenly I was thrown completely off by this unknown character you added in. I am figuring it was just a typo but I needed to check. Other than that though beautiful list. Although I do think you are underrating jigglypuff a bit, having a frame 1 kill move that not only has invincibility frames but a built in taunt of sleeping is something not even Mewtwo can waggle a finger at...

 

[Player-1]

The top players of every important character (except like Pikachu rofl) say something similar about their character vs MK >.>

except like all of them not maining a char in b tier and below

 

[1PokeMastr]

Wait, did they remove Flaoc ?

Did they add a patch to brawl for once ?

 

[Ghostbone]

except like all of them not maining a char in b tier and below

ICs and Snakes and Marths seem to complain a lot
And everyone says MK vs ZSS and Wario are terrible (though there are no Wario mains to complain).

Like who would actually do better in the MK matchup than Diddy.
ICs? Falco? I don't know who else.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ugh Xeylode
You can't say she's bad at getting back to the ground, since her dair's ridiculous hitbox beats every upair besides like MK/Marth and ones like ZSS/TL/Yoshi with very specific spacing. And her mobility isn't so bad that they can't just run around and jump at you from the side or something, lol. Sure she doesn't get down with b-reversals and air-dodges, she just beats whatever attack you throw at her.

Dair is safe on shield against like everyone besides like MK/Marth especially since you can often follow it up with bair/nair or something to beat out whatever they try to do OoS. And that's if it doesn't just poke it. Easy shield cross-ups + jab mixups and such make her shield pressure pretty amazing lol.

Dair has 20 frames ending lag. Her next fastest aerial is frame 3. I don't have to explain how bad that is on shield. Poking is easily fixed by shield tilting. It's not safe. Her float reduces her side momentum even more than drifting reducing her ability to space. There are oos usmash as well from certain characters. All her other aerials are slower cool down as well. Point is if peach dairs my shield with no float cancel my oos Nair says hello.

I'll get around to the air part later when not on a phone.

@jebs: If you roll, peach is safe from you attacking her.

 

[Ghostbone]

Dair has 20 frames ending lag.

If by 20 you mean 8, ok.

And like no OoS u-smash will even reach her when she's spacing properly. (Maybe ZSS or something? too slow though).

And you keep throwing around the term float cancelling when it doesn't even exist, rofl.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Are there any characters that can simply outspace Peach's attacks and prevent her from using shield pressure?

MK, Diddy, Marth, Falco, DDD and Wolf can. Some characters can also go for trades that are nearly always in their favor, Snake for example.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I am just not sure who you are talking about at the 16 th spot. I was following you perfectly having no disagreements but then suddenly I was thrown completely off by this unknown character you added in. I am figuring it was just a typo but I needed to check. Other than that though beautiful list. Although I do think you are underrating jigglypuff a bit, having a frame 1 kill move that not only has invincibility frames but a built in taunt of sleeping is something not even Mewtwo can waggle a finger at...

Rest is only 2 frames, and thanks for catching that typo, I'll fix it immediately.