Official SWF Tier List v8

[BSP]

Mario and Luigi should be right next to each other at the top of low tier IMO. I feel Mario is slightly better.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK, Diddy, Marth, Falco, DDD and Wolf can. Some characters can also go for trades that are nearly always in their favor, Snake for example.

I sincerely believe that even Jigglypuff wins trades with Peach

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I sincerely believe that even Jigglypuff wins trades with Peach

Why trade when we can just hit her without being hit ourselves?

Much better idea imo

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ICs and Snakes and Marths seem to complain a lot
And everyone says MK vs ZSS and Wario are terrible (though there are no Wario mains to complain).

Like who would actually do better in the MK matchup than Diddy.
ICs? Falco? I don't know who else.

Umm the thing about MK vs. ZSS is that it's very snowbally in either direction and MK, being MK, has an easier time getting things going.

When MK is winning, ZSS tends to look super free, but that's just how the match-up goes with MK is winning. There's no real way for ZSS to approach the match-up from large deficits, she has to be ahead or even to make things happen. That's seems damning, but ZSS beats MK with suit pieces and is good at keeping a lead.

Most of us see it as a +1 advantage for MK, not a terrible match-up though.

 

[Ghostbone]

I sincerely believe that even Jigglypuff wins trades with Peach

I have played this matchup a tonne and can confirm this.

But still, Jiggs outrading Peach doesn't mean everyone does (like Wario doesn't for example)

 

[Player-1]

ICs and Snakes and Marths seem to complain a lot
And everyone says MK vs ZSS and Wario are terrible (though there are no Wario mains to complain).

Like who would actually do better in the MK matchup than Diddy.
ICs? Falco? I don't know who else.

Idk what you're talking about, according to vinnie and nakat, ICs only lose to ROB. Falco, ICs, Olimar, Snake, pikachu and zss all do better vs mk than diddy does

 

[Ghostbone]

Falco, ICs, Olimar, Snake, pikachu and zss all do better vs mk than diddy does

I honestly find that extremely hard to believe based on tournament records.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To be fair, Olimar is a VERY difficult Matchup where MK needs to play almost flawless in order to win...
As far as difficulty, Olimar and Diddy are about the same, imo.

 

[Osennecho]

I honestly find that extremely hard to believe based on tournament records.

Player-1 just thinks Diddy is far far worse than he really is. It's an accepted fact by now on these boards.

 

[Player-1]

I honestly find that extremely hard to believe based on tournament records.

lmao what? those chars definitely have better tournament results against mk than diddy does. If anything I would have thought you would have cited falco or snake for tournament results. The only good win a diddy has over MK right now is ADHD beating Zero, and zero isn't even that good at the MU.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think Peach is very overrated.
The reason I think Peach is so bad is because I don't see how she can do much when her opponents reach high %. Her moves don't combo into each other anymore, and she is not going to kill anytime soon. I think Peach's combo game isn't really useful unless she can get a very lucky early kill. Peach is good at giving her opponents a lot of damage really fast, but I believe most of her opponents can catch up with out a problem. Also, losing -3 to the best and most used character in the game is a huge problem.

I just stay close to my opponent and use turnips or space moves based on how my opponent reacts to what I do to get hits and finish the job. Once I rack up damage at low percents I now have to play it cool and work on getting damage till they are at the % for death. I have said this many times already. I don't have to rush for a kill. I can still get my damage with her pressure and many frame traps. if I rush for kills I put myself in nasty positions and could cost me the match. People just don't wanna wait. They just wanna get **** over with. You can not do that with peach for how she is in this game. Smart use of turnips, approaches, wavedashing to bait and control space, and frame traps will get you your damage. You just won't get it quick. And this is what people keep crying about all the time. If you take your time and play it cool, you will outlive your opponent. Power is not everything. And people just dont wanna under stand that at all.

Also, this "losing to MK" nonsense needs to stop. MK is not the only character in this game this character has to go through. Same for everyone else. There are others. You still have to go throw others in tournaments. So I dont see why people tend to bring this up.

Peach's real problem is that it's not very difficult for most opponents to avoid that kind of situation in the first place. She is often falsely believed to have good damage output, which is only true at low percent and largely depends on how the opponent deals with her fair. And even if she does manage to create a fruitful opening she never gets to reap the rewards with her poor KO options.

I already took care of a post like this. So I'm gonna keep this one simple and say your information is false.

1) I think this should be explained in more detail else I might be missing something. As I see it Peach has two options on shields which involve either float or turnip. From there her shield antics are very akin to what I see as jab cancels.

Hardly any character in this game can claim to jab cancel -> move without the opponent being able to counter in some way. Only Falco/Snake can sort of claim that and make it work. Falco its jab -> shield (so only defensive guaranteed) and Snake its jab -> ftilt provided no SDI and hitting with the proper hitbox on jab1. In that respect, most jab cancels -> move are easily beaten or avoided by simply jabbing right back, hold shield, Nair, jump, etc. So anytime you go for a jab cancel you have to play what I can only see as a guessing game with some information about past interactions. Its not like you can jab and be guaranteed success. That's sort of how I see Peach's shield antics.

Her shield options are much more then that. Wnen Peach gets on one shield. Your opponent has a few options to break free from her or counter. Options are limited for this are harder if near the ledge. This is where seeing how the player tries to deal with pressure comes to play. If you don't pay attention to this, Peach pressure is nothing and you will hear stupid comments like the one I am about to comment after your post. With that said here is a basic rundown of her pressure:

Fair links on block:
- Fair>Grab
- Fair>Jab>Grab
- Fair>Jab cancel>Grab
- Fair> Jab cancel>Jab>Grab
- Fair>Jab cancel>Ground float bair> Jab
- Fair>Jab cancel>Ground float bair> Jab cancel >Grab
- Fair> jab cancel>Dair>Jab cancel>grab
- Fair>Jab cancel> Ground float nair> Jab cancel>grab.

*Notes on pressure: Nair as to be space or else it is punishable on block and jab wont save you from grab. This stops your opponent from trying to grab you or attack out out of shield. When you have conditioned them to not try anything, you can go for grabs. Which up when you would grab within the pressure string so they wont tell when it is safe to evade, counter. If the shield is small, end your pressure strings with a Dsmash for shield pokes.

Fair Links on block to backward rolls:
- Fair>dash attack
-Fair>Jab cancel>Dash attack
-Fair>Jab cancel> Dash grab
-Fair>Jab cancel> Peach bomber
- Fair>Jab cancel> Short hop dair

Fair links on block to foward roll:
- Fair>jab cancel> Dair
- Fair> Jab cancel> grab/pivot grab.
- Fair>jab cancel>bair
- Fair>jab cancel>Nair

Fair links on block to spotdodge:
- Fair>Jab Cancel> Nair
- Fair> Jab cancel> Dair
- Fair>Jab cancel Bair
- Fair >Jab cancel> grab
- Fair> Jab cancel> Dsmash

*When you have have your emeny respecting you on block, they will not try to grab you anymore nor attack you. The next best thing is to gain some space. So it would be to Evade. Wether foward or backwards. its easier to predict evasion when near the ledge or shield is small. Near the ledge they can not roll away from you. Only 2 options left which is roll backwards or spotdodge.

**To Save time Dair and Fair can be done in the same formation as Fair. With bair, you have to buffer a turn around to Jab. Turn around animation cancels on frame one, so the jab would come out on frame 3 to keep you safe from grabs.

Pressure starters:
- Fair, grounded fair
- Dair, Floating Dair
- Nair, Ground floating nair
- Jab
- Glide toss to air attack or jab
- Bair
- Zdrop, Zdrop to Bair/Dair/Jab

Safe pressure enders:
Jab cancel/ Evade- Leaves you safe from attacks out of shield and punish/ bait wiffed moves if you evade behind/spot dodge.
Jab cancel> double Jab- If you space Jab on shield. it is hard to punish. You have time to block or evade if you feel in danger.
Ground float nair- Nair is -7 on block. A grab is 6 frames. So your enemy can grab to from a nair. But if he wants to attack you grounded he has to drop his shield first. Which takes 7 frames. You can both move at the same time if he drops his shield to attack. So if you space a nair on block, they wont be able to grab you. Jumping out of shield to an air attack takes time since there is a sqaut animation before you are airborn and able to attack. the average squat frames is 5. So 5+ how many frames it takes for the move to come out. Giving you enough time to defend or evade.
**** These pressure mix ups can be done with Bair as well. if you do it properly, Bair on block is 0.

Peach with float is only safe on shield by float-canceling her attacks properly. For example, dair -> aerial is not legitimate shield pressure as there is plenty of time between the ending lag and the start-up of the next aerial to sh -> bair as falco while chasing peach in the air too and many other characters with equally similar (or faster) aerials and jump squats can accomplish this as well. Anyway, person iin shield eiher has to mess up their timing or drop shield flee and let peach be safe. Only when she float cancels her aerials into a ground option does it become safe shield pressure. But from there, she is stuck in a situation where she has to pick some ground option and play jab cancel type scenario.

Turnips I am not sure about.

No one in this game can't jump out of shield to an air attack after I dair shield. Dair is -3 on block.The average jump squat in this game is around 5. which means thats how many frames it takes your character to be airborn. Then your air attack will come out. If I dair to jab, I will hit you before your air attack comes out. If you dair wrong, its - 5 on block. And even so not alot of character can punish her for it due to a jab coming in. They have to block.

Turnips with pressure also stops this. it takes one frame to z drop items. So you can Dair ones shield, Zdrop turnip and then cross up with a bair on shield, to a reverse Jab (reverse jab is 3 frames) The hit box of a Zdrop item is active on the first frame. So onec you hit Z, there is your falling hit box that people would jump into.

2) I see her biggest downfall being her horrible aerial attributes when getting down after getting hit. Airdodge invincibility is stripped to half compared to other characters. One of the worst fast falling speeds. Decent aerials, but not exceptionally disjointed. Bad 2nd jump in both acceleration and height.

Airdodge/FF combination on a character like DDD is good because he can slip past opponents with invincibility and reach the ground more quickly than they can thus switching the situation. With Peach that combination is not very feasible and only low to the ground to avoid the horrible ending lag.

She cannot really threaten with say a sudden FF large/disjoint aerial either that say Snake could apply. Her special stalling options like Counter is sub-par as its only beneficial from one angle. Not compared to say Fox/Marth/Ike.

Her other stalling method with float does not really gain her anything. DDD/MK could jump multiple times baiting you into trying to attack, then immediately fall back down to avoid you or gain stage that you left open by leaving the ground. Her falling speed does not allow for that tactic. Any character can also alter their flight path by 2nd jump or using a special jump (diddy/zss). Peach does not have that option either as her slow accent upwards and height severly limit there usage when compared to a character with a much faster acceleration upwards such as Marth/MK UpB or Falco with FH/2nd jump Bair.

Point is there are a variety of aerial defensive maneuvers most characters can use. All the ones peach has access too are worst (or close to it) compared to every other character that can perform that very same maneuver. Ganon gets more success from fastfall air dodge far better than Peach.

Her ability to get past defensive gameplay when at the deficit in a match I do not think is really any worse or better than most characters in the game. She is no Ivysaur, Falcon, Bowser, etc. simply because she has turnips to work with. But neither does she have the fast ground speed like ZSS, Pikachu, or Fox as another potential attribute to get past defensive play.

Peach actually have a decent time landing. The dair is good cause the hit box is big. It is not godd when people just wanna fall down with it every time. People will just wait for it. Or players just mash it while falling. Which is easily punishable. When I do it I usually wait. Just to see if my opponent wants to throw out a move or bait. This is where I decided to throw it out early or not.. if I do and guess correctly based on my data finishing on my opponent, people will jump into it and get hit out of their attack, cause as they do their attack, they are moving into an active hitbox. it can mess up peoples timings of when to go and hit her. Thats how i people lots of upairs like MK,ZSS,MArth, ex. Otherwise I will get hit. And its a combination of fastfalling or just freefalling. because of this, Peach can not just mash dair each time when coming down. Peach has the worst air dodge yet she has better landing options then Marth because he can't really protect himself from below. On top of having the second worst air dodge in the game.

3) Hmm.... I am not sure the relevance in this. Provided percentage is really the only difference, then she can rack up quick damage from a hit at low percents. A stock deficit is harder, but it all depends upon player interactions and mistakes made. Its certainly no get hit by Dthrow tech chase -> quick edgeguard damage and Utilt by snake for clearing a stock, but seems too much of a absolute statement to make.

The post I made to bluexenon covers this.

4) Attributes of midtier certainly.

5) As stated early, I am not sure of this extremely safe ability she has. Also, as mentioned before trading with peach is not something I think is very beneifical for peach unless she has the lower percentage because she'll just get to the ground last and therefore lose any advantage from a trade.

Covered this as well.

If you roll away after Peach hits your shield with bair she can do nothing about it, even on read. The loss of stage control is a worthy trade-off because Peach can't get the opponent trapped in a poor spot unless he's in the air. The biggest mistake you can make against Peach is spotdodging. You can beat Peach's "pressure game" with rolling, economical use of shield and beating her aerials head on - any character can do that.

I can't tell if you are trying to be funny or extremely stupid when if comes to this game. I took care of this anyway so I don't have to explain this easy correction.

 

[BlueXenon]

I just stay close to my opponent and use turnips or space moves based on how my opponent reacts to what I do to get hits and finish the job. Once I rack up damage at low percents I now have to play it cool and work on getting damage till they are at the % for death. I have said this many times already. I don't have to rush for a kill. I can still get my damage with her pressure and many frame traps. if I rush for kills I put myself in nasty positions and could cost me the match. People just don't wanna wait. They just wanna get **** over with. You can not do that with peach for how she is in this game. Smart use of turnips, approaches, wavedashing to bait and control space, and frame traps will get you your damage. You just won't get it quick. And this is what people keep crying about all the time. If you take your time and play it cool, you will outlive your opponent. Power is not everything. And people just dont wanna under stand that at all.

What you're saying seems really unrealistic. People do get impatient. And if being impatient as Peach causes her to lose matches, then Peach isn't good.
All it can take for her to lose a stock is one mistake and nobody has the ability to play perfectly 100% of the time so mistakes will happen.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

All it can take for her to lose a stock is one mistake

You seem lost, allow me point you in the right direction

 

[BlueXenon]

You seem lost, allow me point you in the right direction

Thankyou for your help.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach is not good cause people are impatient. That is not a character problem. That's the players fault for not doing what they are suppose too. If people were to be patient they now have as much problems as they do not and I not hear stupid stuff that I been hearing for years.

A players flaw should never relate to a character ability. No one gives characters mystic abilities to do what they could have always done. It's not impossible to be patient. I Even if you make a mistake (which is bound to happen) you can still keep control and do just fine. So you saying Peach is not good cause people get inpatient does not sound right at all. For that is a PLAYER problem, not a character problem.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If people were to be patient they now have as much problems as they do not and I not hear stupid stuff that I been hearing for years.

Can you repeat that sentence please, the wording doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Dark.Pch]

not************************

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

not************************

You see, you think that helps but it really doesn't

 

[Pachinkosam]

not************************

That helped alot.

 

[Minwu]

guys, let's all just move to competitive cookie clicker

 

[ぱみゅ]

guys, let's all just move to competitive cookie clicker

Dibs on being CCBR

 

[Z'zgashi]

 

[pidgezero_one]

Does this mean Double Jigglypuff will never be?

No, I heard ANUS_DESTROYER also mains jiggs.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

No, I heard ANUS_DESTROYER also mains jiggs.

Oh, I suppose that's all right then.

 

[Minwu]

I feel bad for the people that stopped paying attention before this tier list developed. They could've had a V8.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

To be fair, Olimar is a VERY difficult Matchup where MK needs to play almost flawless in order to win...

I don't see how that's the case. The matchup is noticeably in MK's favor and doesn't require "almost flawless play". Watch Rain / Otori vs dabuz from Apex 13 - there are a lot of flaws in the way they played the matchup and they still both won simply on account of the fact that they had a solid overall grasp of the matchup. If you wanna see how the matchup goes when the MK plays it flawlessly ... then you should watch Rain vs Nietono videos from after Apex 12. It's not pretty.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK u broke

 

[Rizen]

"Are there any characters that can simply outspace Peach's attacks and prevent her from using shield pressure?"

MK, Diddy, Marth, Falco, DDD and Wolf can. Some characters can also go for trades that are nearly always in their favor, Snake for example.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/page-92#post-15835340
+G&W
Link outspaces but is to immobile and slow to count :/

 

[-LzR-]

How does GW outspace Peach? GW has no useful spacing moves.

 

[infiniteV115]

Literally every single one of GW's moves has a disjoint that's bigger than Peach herself what are you talking about

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach does not apply shield pressure just on going in and attacking. So if people thing just out spacing Peach shuts that down, you are mistaken.

 

[-LzR-]

Literally every single one of GW's moves has a disjoint that's bigger than Peach herself what are you talking about

And all of them are either slow, laggy or don't cover any horizontal space.

 

[Rizen]

How does GW outspace Peach? GW has no useful spacing moves.

G&W's 'get out of jail free' upB escapes well, he has high jumps, fast air speed, and long lasting disjointed hitbubbles that eat most turnips.

 

[-LzR-]

And none of that outspaces Peach. It just means he can stay away allowing Peach to pluck more turnips.

 

[xBlitz]

Guys, it's time. This is my 2000th post, and I'm giving it to you, the followers of the Official SWF Tier List v8 thread.

I present to you

The Official SWF Tier List v9

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Tier:

Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff has unparalleled aerial prowess. She is capable of getting early kills against any character via gimps, or she could use her excellent mobility to play a camping/spacing game that is extremely difficult for any character to approach.

SSS:

Mewtwo, Roy, Doctor Mario, Pichu, Young Link
These characters were so obviously broken during the development process that Sakurai decided to remove them from the game. Many people complained about this decision, but if these characters had been added Sakurai would have been widely criticized for leaving such overpowered characters in the game. This was essentially a no-win situation for Sakurai, but in the end he made the best decision for game balance.

SS tier:

Diddy Kong
Diddy Kong is a unique case. During development Sakurai wanted to give him a unique mechanic: the ability to make other characters trip. Due to an unforeseen error, this caused other characters, even in matches which did not involve Diddy Kong, to trip in random circumstances. Because of this, he is given the 7th spot on my tier list.

Olimar
Olimar is awarded the 8th spot because of his Pikmin. He can turn a match from a 1v1 to a 7v1 at any point in a match. Outnumbering his opponents by such a large margin makes Olimar a tournament threat at every level.

Ice Climbers
Similar to Olimar, the Ice Climbers are given such a high spot because they have a numerical advantage against their opponents. Outnumbering your opponent is an advantage in any form of Combat, and Smash Bros is no different.

King Dedede
As with Olimar, King Dedede has the ability to summon allies at will in order to outnumber the opponent.

S tier

Pokémon Trainer
Pokémon Trainer also outnumbers his opponents, though not in the same way as Ice Climbers of Olimar. Pokémon Trainer can choose from 1 of 3 different Pokémon to gain a tactical advantage in whichever situation he faces. Being able to keep is other 2 Pokémon fresh while the opponent gets tired gives him another tactical advantage.

Zelda/Sheik
Sheilda also has the tactical advantage of being able to switch between 2 options in order to better meet any challenge. She is placed below Pokémon Trainer because she only has 2 choices, and the reserve character is not kept at peak performance.

A tier

Samus/Zero Suit Samus
Samus contains a plethora of futuristic technology that gives her a technological edge on her opponents. When she is wearing her Power Suit, she excels at long range combat and can keep opponents away from her with a great degree of efficiency. When she discards the suit, she gains extra agility and becomes an expert at close quarter combat, and she can continue to attack her opponents from afar by throwing pieces of the suit at them.

Snake
Snake, like Samus, is very well equipped for a combat setting. He has many weapons that he can use to make the arena a minefield, with various traps that the opponent must avoid in order to even reach Snake, at which point Snake can show that he is a master of hand-to-hand fighting, and a threat to any character.

ROB
ROB is a Robot. He feels no pain. He will just keep going until he obtains victory, or suffers defeat. Luckily for the Robot, he has the tools so that victory will come more often than defeat. He can take out the Gyro at any point and use it, along with his laser eyes, to harass his enemy from across the stage. His exceptionally long arms give him great ability at close range, allowing him to

Flaoc
Flaoc has an exceptional ability to control the stage at both long and close range, with his lasers and fantastic jab and grab, allowing him to take on any character head to head to head.

Wolf
Wolf is great at controlling space with his fantastic aerials as well as his great laser. He can kill opponents very early and is great at protecting himself while dealing out massive damage.

B tier

Pit
Pit has a sword, magical arrows, and his most dangerous weapon, Divine Assistance. He can annoy his opponents from any position on the stage, and will be very difficult to kill due to his god(dess) given ability to fly. He can kill enemies fairly easily, and is exceptional at racking up damage.

Lucas
Lucas has amazing Psychic abilities, and is great at weaving around his opponents and racking damage quickly with multi-hit moves. He can kill easily with his extremely powerful smashes and easy setups into kill moves.

Ness
Like, Lucas, Ness has great psychic abilities and his great at racking up damage. While he isn’t as adept at moving around the stage, he can kill just as easily and can hold his own against many top tier characters.

Toon Link
Toon Link has great speed, and a huge number of projectiles he can use to keep foes away from him, including arrows, a boomerang and bombs. He’s not inept at close range though, as he can cut into his opponent’s chances of victory with his Sword, and at midrange he has his hook shot to keep his opponents at bay.

Link
Link is essentially a slower, more powerful version of Toon Link with greater range. His toolset makes him a big threat to many characters.

C tier
Metaknight
Metaknight has amazing speed, 6 jumps, and great priority. However he has trouble dealing with foes who can challenge him from a distance, has he doesn’t have the range to deal with campy foes. He is also fairly light, making him easier to kill than most other characters.

Marth
Marth has great range with his sword, Falchion. He can keep enemies at bay with large swipes, and the deadly tip of the sword. Like Metaknight, he has trouble with long distance assaults. He can kill easily with powerful tipped smashes; however he has a poor recovery, making it easy to kill him fairly early in his stock.

Ike
Ike is power. Power is Ike. Ike’s sword Ragnell is huge and powerful, giving him great range and exceptional killing power. Like Marth and Metaknight, he has trouble with long distance fighters and can be killed early.

Mr. Game and Watch
Mr. Game and Watch has great kill power and an excellent recovery, but he is one of the lightest characters in the game, making him fairly easy to kill. He also has trouble dealing with long range opponents, though this is slightly offset by his bucket.

D tier
Peach
Peach is exceptional at racking up damage at low percent, though she has a lot of problems killing opponents and has a terrible vertical recovery. Her chance to randomly pull items such as bombs and swords out of the ground prevents her from being lower on the list.

Pikachu
Pikachu is quick, has an excellent grab game, and a fairly good projectile. He has some troubles killing, but does have non-guaranteed setups into kills moves on many characters. He is also light and dies easily.

Lucario
Lucario has great power, when he’s behind. This is not a desirable quality for competitive players, who want to be in the lead throughout the whole match, which is the best way to guarantee victory.

E tier

Wario
Wario has aerial mobility that Rivals that of Jigglypuff, and he has great kill power. However, he is a fastfaller and a large target, and doesn’t have the greatest recovery, making it easy to kill him.

Luigi
Luigi has great kill power, but that’s all he has. His recovery is decent, and he’s light. He has very low traction, making it difficult for him to punish enemies when they hit his shield.

Mario
Mario is an inferior Luigi; he has less kill power, a worse recovery and dies more easily. The only thing he has over Luigi is a better out of shield game.

Yoshi
Yoshi’s inability to attack out of shield cripples him to the point of near-uselessness. He has a semi-decent projectile and a command grab, but those assets are not enough to overcome his huge flaw.

Bowser
Bowser is strong, and he has a good out of shield option with his up special. However, he is slow, and has a poor recovery.

F tier

Sonic
GOTTA GO FAST. Yes Sonic, speed is an important factor in Smash Bros, but so is being able to kill. Which you cannot do.

Donkey Kong
DK has power, and he’s kind of fast, but he has a poor recovery and his strongest kills moves aren’t fast enough to land easily.
Captain Falcon

Falcon has speed, and kill power, but his kill moves aren’t reliable and require a read to land. He is completely obliterated by characters with superior range or projectiles.

Ganondorf
Ganondorf has POWER. And nothing else. Maybe he should team up with Sonic?

Kirby tier
Kirby
Kirby copies his opponent’s abilities, which means he’s only as good as his opponent is.

Fox tier
Fox

Fox sux lol

If you have any complaints about this list please email me at idc_aboutu@stfu.com[/quote]

I cried when I saw Fox tier. GGs you won the internet.

 

[Dark.Pch]

And all of them are either slow, laggy or don't cover any horizontal space.

That does not matter dude. His Bair has more range then me. The only move I have that comes close to dealing with is is a fsmash (Golf club). The speed of the moves don't matter. If he spaces then, I just can't get in like that. My fair is 16 frames (17 max range). I can not jump in on G&W against any of his moves. They are all faster and have range. I will get hit. Her fair is alright and challenging if fair is anything. With spacing. But thats about it.

Moves like that is what you don't challenge. You go in slowly and get close enough to him so if he was to throw them out, you can punish him for it. That's mostly what you have to do with this character since she does not have any fast air moves with range in the single digits besides Nair and bair. Nair you have to be really close due to it's range. And bair you have to be careful since the move has alot of cool down time. Best ground float bairs alot so you can just cancel it right away. You wiff bair in the air and you get get punished for it. This is what you have to do with her all the time against nearly everyone. Now for some extra stuff.

G&W Bair you can full hop dair and hit him from the top if he short hops

His fair you can deal with it with a fsmash or spaced fairs which is risk. I rather not challenge it and just save my fair for when its time to end peoples stocks. Wave dash to a reverse Fsmash to control space and be out of his range.

If G&W Up-Bs out of shield pressure wants to come down with the typical dair, you can actually fullhop Upair and hit him out of his dair. Done correctly, he can not punish you for this with his dair.

His Nair. If you are good at spacing, you can punish his landing with a dtilt.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I cried when I saw Fox tier. GGs you won the internet.

damn, that's the 4th internet I've won this year.

I'm running out of places to store them

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That does not matter dude. His Bair has more range then me. The only move I have that comes close to dealing with is is a fsmash (Golf club). The speed of the moves don't matter. If he spaces then, I just can't get in like that. My fair is 16 frames (17 max range). I can not jump in on G&W against any of his moves. They are all faster and have range. I will get hit. Her fair is alright and challenging if fair is anything. With spacing. But thats about it.

Moves like that is what you don't challenge. You go in slowly and get close enough to him so if he was to throw them out, you can punish him for it. That's mostly what you have to do with this character since she does not have any fast air moves with range in the single digits besides Nair and bair. Nair you have to be really close due to it's range. And bair you have to be careful since the move has alot of cool down time. Best ground float bairs alot so you can just cancel it right away. You wiff bair in the air and you get get punished for it. This is what you have to do with her all the time against nearly everyone. Now for some extra stuff.

G&W Bair you can full hop dair and hit him from the top if he short hops

His fair you can deal with it with a fsmash or spaced fairs which is risk. I rather not challenge it and just save my fair for when its time to end peoples stocks. Wave dash to a reverse Fsmash to control space and be out of his range.

If G&W Up-Bs out of shield pressure wants to come down with the typical dair, you can actually fullhop Upair and hit him out of his dair. Done correctly, he can not punish you for this with his dair.

His Nair. If you are good at spacing, you can punish his landing with a dtilt.

Do you believe the match-up is in Peach's favour or even? This quote would seem to indicate as such, with the "If G&W does this, Peach can do this as a response" format, but I don't want to jump the gun on disagreeing with you if we don't actually disagree.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Can't say. I don't know that match up 100% for me to say my take on it. I just know a few things I can and can't do vs him. And same for G&W. I don't fight him alot. So until I do and have this match up broken down, I can not give a ratio for what I think this match up is.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Can't say. I don't know that match up 100% for me to say my take on it. I just know a few things I can and can't do vs him. And same for G&W. I don't fight him alot. So until I do and have this match up broken down, I can not give a ratio for what I think this match up is.

Come on Dark.Pch, live a little. Don't rely on "experience" and "data" to decide Matchups, go with your GUT FEELING and stick with it.